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United States1840 Posts
On March 23 2024 01:09 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 00:49 lokol4890 wrote:On March 23 2024 00:28 Smorrie wrote:
Arguments are jumping left and right, going from perceived skill, results, level of domination, tournament results, balance & of course a great deal of favoritism.
The main arguments appear to be revolving around Serral not playing in the most competitive environment & lacking GSL titles.
However, excluding Serral's lack of GSL participation, wherever he has been competing he's been the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far. He also played Maru plenty of times with an 80% win rate & is sporting a 70%+ win rate vs the best players in GSL. Won tournaments with GSL champion participation. Wherever Serral competes, he's as dominant as Flash in BW. In his incredible 20-1 Katowice run he's shown to be the best player out there, at the very least at this moment. Being the current best player of course is not equivalent to carrying the GOAT crown.
There are several points that could be made to justify Serral's lack of presence in GSL & the fact that Maru potentially wouldn't have been able to achieve similar results if Serral did participate in GSL. In the end this however is all hypothetically speaking and will never happen.
So the question is; what are the requirements that would crown Serral as the (majorly) undisputed GOAT? Or is this an impossible feat. without GSL participation?
Having a hard time believing serral was "the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far" when soO won iem, Innovation won wesg and Dark won wcs in 2019; Rogue won iem in 2020; Reynor won iem in 2021; and Reynor won G8 in 2023. Increase the search beyond just iem, wesg, and G8 and you get even more championships from maru and the other zergs not named serral. Also having a hard time with the serral/Flash equivalence. Flash wasn't propped by racial balance his whole career (shown by Flash dominating regardless of his terran counterparts). Bringing Flash into the equation only helps maru's case (consistently at the top regardless of how other terrans have performed, and sick proleague scores) E: and let's not forget that when maru bopped serral in wesg very soon after terran got nerfed Serral won 24 Liquipedia-rated Premier events since 2018. Just for comparison, that is more than Marus finals appearances (not wins) in LotV (21, 11 wins, 10 losses). Even if you combine the Premier wins of the next two most succesful players in LotV (Rogue and Maru) it still doesn't catch up to Serral. With that, Serral outperforms every other player in the history of this game, including those who have played all three iterations, by a landslide. So while you might argue about the competitive value of tournaments since whatever arbitrary line you might want to draw, if you ask "who was the most dominant player in the last six years" this numbers alone tell you "Serral" without competition. Yes, of course, he had stretches of winning less. Yes, of course, other players have won big tournaments. But to go back to Flash: It is not like he won every OSL and MSL ever, he actually had fair stretches where he didn't win neither. But going by your logic, you are ready to discard the highest winning player of the last six years because he didn't win always everything and then choose the guy who didn't win half of the other players titles instead? Not to mention the clear difference in World Championship titles in the exact same timespan. Usually when people put Maru ahead of Serral, it is because of Marus longer career and Proleague results. But if you seriously want to argue the best player of LotV/the last six years...c'mon
And 9 of those wins came in region locked events Maru couldn't play in. You could just compare the numbers from events in which they both participated (Serral again holds the lead), but it's easier to use shoddy methods to support your narrative.
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On March 23 2024 01:09 Balnazza wrote:
But to go back to Flash: It is not like he won every OSL and MSL ever, he actually had fair stretches where he didn't win neither.
Yeah, at the time Flash was not the undisputed goat, since NaDa/iloveoov had similar achievements. But what really sealed the deal is the ASL wins he got after the golden era. So it's kind of a similar situation with Serral/Maru, whoever wins more in the future will surely out edge the other.
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On March 23 2024 01:25 Freezard wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 01:09 Balnazza wrote:
But to go back to Flash: It is not like he won every OSL and MSL ever, he actually had fair stretches where he didn't win neither. Yeah, at the time Flash was not the undisputed goat, since NaDa/iloveoov had similar achievements. But what really sealed the deal is the ASL wins he got after the golden era. So it's kind of a similar situation with Serral/Maru, whoever wins more in the future will surely out edge the other.
Let's be real, if the last year wasn't enough for someone to feel Serral holds the lead now, then you could find reasons to make another year or two of Serral coming out ahead not be enough too.
Dude's been absolutely crushing it for 6 years, with three more world championships than Maru in that time. In a short career he's out-earned and out-trophied Maru's long one.
Maru had his shot to stay ahead of the conversation, and he lost it 0-4.
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Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time
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On March 23 2024 01:09 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 00:49 lokol4890 wrote:On March 23 2024 00:28 Smorrie wrote:
Arguments are jumping left and right, going from perceived skill, results, level of domination, tournament results, balance & of course a great deal of favoritism.
The main arguments appear to be revolving around Serral not playing in the most competitive environment & lacking GSL titles.
However, excluding Serral's lack of GSL participation, wherever he has been competing he's been the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far. He also played Maru plenty of times with an 80% win rate & is sporting a 70%+ win rate vs the best players in GSL. Won tournaments with GSL champion participation. Wherever Serral competes, he's as dominant as Flash in BW. In his incredible 20-1 Katowice run he's shown to be the best player out there, at the very least at this moment. Being the current best player of course is not equivalent to carrying the GOAT crown.
There are several points that could be made to justify Serral's lack of presence in GSL & the fact that Maru potentially wouldn't have been able to achieve similar results if Serral did participate in GSL. In the end this however is all hypothetically speaking and will never happen.
So the question is; what are the requirements that would crown Serral as the (majorly) undisputed GOAT? Or is this an impossible feat. without GSL participation?
Having a hard time believing serral was "the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far" when soO won iem, Innovation won wesg and Dark won wcs in 2019; Rogue won iem in 2020; Reynor won iem in 2021; and Reynor won G8 in 2023. Increase the search beyond just iem, wesg, and G8 and you get even more championships from maru and the other zergs not named serral. Also having a hard time with the serral/Flash equivalence. Flash wasn't propped by racial balance his whole career (shown by Flash dominating regardless of his terran counterparts). Bringing Flash into the equation only helps maru's case (consistently at the top regardless of how other terrans have performed, and sick proleague scores) E: and let's not forget that when maru bopped serral in wesg very soon after terran got nerfed Serral won 24 Liquipedia-rated Premier events since 2018. Just for comparison, that is more than Marus finals appearances (not wins) in LotV (21, 11 wins, 10 losses). Even if you combine the Premier wins of the next two most succesful players in LotV (Rogue and Maru) it still doesn't catch up to Serral. With that, Serral outperforms every other player in the history of this game, including those who have played all three iterations, by a landslide. So while you might argue about the competitive value of tournaments since whatever arbitrary line you might want to draw, if you ask "who was the most dominant player in the last six years" this numbers alone tell you "Serral" without competition. Yes, of course, he had stretches of winning less. Yes, of course, other players have won big tournaments. But to go back to Flash: It is not like he won every OSL and MSL ever, he actually had fair stretches where he didn't win neither. But going by your logic, you are ready to discard the highest winning player of the last six years because he didn't win always everything and then choose the guy who didn't win half of the other players titles instead? Not to mention the clear difference in World Championship titles in the exact same timespan. Usually when people put Maru ahead of Serral, it is because of Marus longer career and Proleague results. But if you seriously want to argue the best player of LotV/the last six years...c'mon
I guess the point is that while Serral overall was the most succesful player in the last 6 years, he wasn't the best from 2018-21. During that period it was close between him, Rogue and Maru and also Dark, Reynor and Trap had periods where they were regarded the best player in the world. It was only from 2022 on that Serral truly seperated himself from the rest of the field
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On March 23 2024 01:25 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 01:09 Balnazza wrote:On March 23 2024 00:49 lokol4890 wrote:On March 23 2024 00:28 Smorrie wrote:
Arguments are jumping left and right, going from perceived skill, results, level of domination, tournament results, balance & of course a great deal of favoritism.
The main arguments appear to be revolving around Serral not playing in the most competitive environment & lacking GSL titles.
However, excluding Serral's lack of GSL participation, wherever he has been competing he's been the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far. He also played Maru plenty of times with an 80% win rate & is sporting a 70%+ win rate vs the best players in GSL. Won tournaments with GSL champion participation. Wherever Serral competes, he's as dominant as Flash in BW. In his incredible 20-1 Katowice run he's shown to be the best player out there, at the very least at this moment. Being the current best player of course is not equivalent to carrying the GOAT crown.
There are several points that could be made to justify Serral's lack of presence in GSL & the fact that Maru potentially wouldn't have been able to achieve similar results if Serral did participate in GSL. In the end this however is all hypothetically speaking and will never happen.
So the question is; what are the requirements that would crown Serral as the (majorly) undisputed GOAT? Or is this an impossible feat. without GSL participation?
Having a hard time believing serral was "the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far" when soO won iem, Innovation won wesg and Dark won wcs in 2019; Rogue won iem in 2020; Reynor won iem in 2021; and Reynor won G8 in 2023. Increase the search beyond just iem, wesg, and G8 and you get even more championships from maru and the other zergs not named serral. Also having a hard time with the serral/Flash equivalence. Flash wasn't propped by racial balance his whole career (shown by Flash dominating regardless of his terran counterparts). Bringing Flash into the equation only helps maru's case (consistently at the top regardless of how other terrans have performed, and sick proleague scores) E: and let's not forget that when maru bopped serral in wesg very soon after terran got nerfed Serral won 24 Liquipedia-rated Premier events since 2018. Just for comparison, that is more than Marus finals appearances (not wins) in LotV (21, 11 wins, 10 losses). Even if you combine the Premier wins of the next two most succesful players in LotV (Rogue and Maru) it still doesn't catch up to Serral. With that, Serral outperforms every other player in the history of this game, including those who have played all three iterations, by a landslide. So while you might argue about the competitive value of tournaments since whatever arbitrary line you might want to draw, if you ask "who was the most dominant player in the last six years" this numbers alone tell you "Serral" without competition. Yes, of course, he had stretches of winning less. Yes, of course, other players have won big tournaments. But to go back to Flash: It is not like he won every OSL and MSL ever, he actually had fair stretches where he didn't win neither. But going by your logic, you are ready to discard the highest winning player of the last six years because he didn't win always everything and then choose the guy who didn't win half of the other players titles instead? Not to mention the clear difference in World Championship titles in the exact same timespan. Usually when people put Maru ahead of Serral, it is because of Marus longer career and Proleague results. But if you seriously want to argue the best player of LotV/the last six years...c'mon And 9 of those wins came in region locked events Maru couldn't play in. You could just compare the numbers from events in which they both participated (Serral again holds the lead), but it's easier to use shoddy methods to support your narrative.
No, I used those numbers because I actually have those numbers at hand, since I keep a record of Premier events finals participations. If you have a problem with the European Regional Finals being classified as "Premier events", please take that up with the Liquipedia-Admins. But then again, going by Prizepool alone it would make much more sense to strike GSL out of that Tier, but anyway.
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On March 23 2024 04:12 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 01:25 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 23 2024 01:09 Balnazza wrote:On March 23 2024 00:49 lokol4890 wrote:On March 23 2024 00:28 Smorrie wrote:
Arguments are jumping left and right, going from perceived skill, results, level of domination, tournament results, balance & of course a great deal of favoritism.
The main arguments appear to be revolving around Serral not playing in the most competitive environment & lacking GSL titles.
However, excluding Serral's lack of GSL participation, wherever he has been competing he's been the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far. He also played Maru plenty of times with an 80% win rate & is sporting a 70%+ win rate vs the best players in GSL. Won tournaments with GSL champion participation. Wherever Serral competes, he's as dominant as Flash in BW. In his incredible 20-1 Katowice run he's shown to be the best player out there, at the very least at this moment. Being the current best player of course is not equivalent to carrying the GOAT crown.
There are several points that could be made to justify Serral's lack of presence in GSL & the fact that Maru potentially wouldn't have been able to achieve similar results if Serral did participate in GSL. In the end this however is all hypothetically speaking and will never happen.
So the question is; what are the requirements that would crown Serral as the (majorly) undisputed GOAT? Or is this an impossible feat. without GSL participation?
Having a hard time believing serral was "the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far" when soO won iem, Innovation won wesg and Dark won wcs in 2019; Rogue won iem in 2020; Reynor won iem in 2021; and Reynor won G8 in 2023. Increase the search beyond just iem, wesg, and G8 and you get even more championships from maru and the other zergs not named serral. Also having a hard time with the serral/Flash equivalence. Flash wasn't propped by racial balance his whole career (shown by Flash dominating regardless of his terran counterparts). Bringing Flash into the equation only helps maru's case (consistently at the top regardless of how other terrans have performed, and sick proleague scores) E: and let's not forget that when maru bopped serral in wesg very soon after terran got nerfed Serral won 24 Liquipedia-rated Premier events since 2018. Just for comparison, that is more than Marus finals appearances (not wins) in LotV (21, 11 wins, 10 losses). Even if you combine the Premier wins of the next two most succesful players in LotV (Rogue and Maru) it still doesn't catch up to Serral. With that, Serral outperforms every other player in the history of this game, including those who have played all three iterations, by a landslide. So while you might argue about the competitive value of tournaments since whatever arbitrary line you might want to draw, if you ask "who was the most dominant player in the last six years" this numbers alone tell you "Serral" without competition. Yes, of course, he had stretches of winning less. Yes, of course, other players have won big tournaments. But to go back to Flash: It is not like he won every OSL and MSL ever, he actually had fair stretches where he didn't win neither. But going by your logic, you are ready to discard the highest winning player of the last six years because he didn't win always everything and then choose the guy who didn't win half of the other players titles instead? Not to mention the clear difference in World Championship titles in the exact same timespan. Usually when people put Maru ahead of Serral, it is because of Marus longer career and Proleague results. But if you seriously want to argue the best player of LotV/the last six years...c'mon And 9 of those wins came in region locked events Maru couldn't play in. You could just compare the numbers from events in which they both participated (Serral again holds the lead), but it's easier to use shoddy methods to support your narrative. No, I used those numbers because I actually have those numbers at hand, since I keep a record of Premier events finals participations. If you have a problem with the European Regional Finals being classified as "Premier events", please take that up with the Liquipedia-Admins. But then again, going by Prizepool alone it would make much more sense to strike GSL out of that Tier, but anyway.
https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii the real GOAT list!
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Just for curiosity. Serral has been now #1 on Aligulac lists 119 times, since list 203 when he first time took the spot on Dec. 6. 2017.
Ever since some other player has held #1 only 40 times as following:
Maru (29 lists)
Lists 339, 340, 341, 342
Lists 332, 333
Lists 311, 312, 313
Lists 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235
Lists 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220
Clem (4 lists)
Lists 295, 296
Lists 292, 293
Reynor (7 lists)
Lists 271, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276, 277
...
Furthermore, Serral has never been lower than #2 since the list 202, unlike above listed players. His rise through the Aligulac ranks can be described as "meteoric", while his staying power at the top of the lists "monolithic". Also, particularly during last year his gap to #2 has been consistently increasing. Current list: 368
Sample size isn't anymore that small. HHoF feels broken. Broken by Serral.
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On March 23 2024 04:27 UnLarva wrote:
Just for curiosity. Serral has been now #1 on Aligulac lists 119 times, since list 203 when he first time took the spot on Dec. 6. 2017.
Ever since some other player has held #1 only 40 times as following:
Maru (29 lists)
Lists 339, 340, 341, 342
Lists 332, 333
Lists 311, 312, 313
Lists 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235
Lists 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220
Clem (4 lists)
Lists 295, 296
Lists 292, 293
Reynor (7 lists)
Lists 271, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276, 277
...
Furthermore, Serral has never been lower than #2 since the list 202, unlike above listed players. His rise through the Aligulac ranks can be described as "meteoric", while his staying power at the top of the lists "monolithic". Also, particularly during last year his gap to #2 has been consistently increasing. Current list: 368
Sample size isn't anymore that small. HHoF feels broken. Broken by Serral.
Yea I'm pretty sure (99.9% sure) you can run aligulac algorithm giving huge bias to Koreans (like 1000 extra starting rating) and Serral would still be by far be the #1 player in the world, even when comparing to top5 of race Serral would still be #1 by a lot.
The fact he did this w/o strong Terrans/Protosses to practice against in 2017/2018 makes it even more ridiculous.
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On March 23 2024 02:59 Mmakorea wrote:
Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time
One can argue over inconsistencies in regards to the criteria within the logic the writer used.
For example:
a. When you say at one time that it was a super close call between Serral and Maru how - at the same time - can you say that IEM 2024 would not make a difference?
Or put differently: How many more tournaments, in which both players are active, need to be played to tilt the scale in Serral's favor if IEM was not enough, but both are supposedly close in the GOAT debate?
b. Then there is the argumentation of longevity versus peak performance.
In MVP's article it is described that he placed above Innovation because he was so dominant, even if not for long. On the contrary in Maru's article, it is stated that Serral has higher peak performances but Maru is hailed for his "otherworldly longevity". If you want to stay consistent, you have to choose between one, but cannot switch based on the player you like better, as it seems to be the case here.
Defining criteria is fine... but you have to stick to them, otherwise the whole endeavor is arbitrary.
But I agree. It is one person's opinion. But that doesn't stop me from voicing mine either  And I think the author raises valid points for Maru's GOAT status, don't get me wrong. It was also nice to dwell in nostalgia while reading through the well written essays. But it is also the case that one's reasoning when establishing such a list should be on point, otherwise the scent of arbitrary metrics is too strong.
I, for example, looked at the following metrics to have people as GOAT contenders and only one of them had to be achieved to play a role in my further analysis:
1. Minimum 4 years of having a an over 60% win rate versus top Korean players (to accommodate for longevity)
2. Having won at least 10 Premier Tournaments (Also longevity but also the skill to persist and win)
3. Having at least won 2 World Championships (As the highest peak where the best of the world congregate)
These metrics can be fulfilled by every player who plays a role internationally and they were the entrance point to my evaluation.
I further looked (only against top Korean competition to prevent people from claiming that non Koreans had it easier) at longest winning streaks, peak win rates, amount of peak win rates, win records of top contenders versus top Koreans and versus each other. These win rates/streaks were adjusted (meaning I took the win rates versus Koreans and added the respective player's win rate versus Serral, as he was also compared to everyone else) to include the only non Korean player in the list, which is Serral. And the evaluation of the raw data was pretty obvious. By any standard metric that can be applied to every player who plays internationally, Serral is the best.
- He is one of two players to achieve the Triple Crown twice (Only MVP achieved the same)
- He has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant
- In three out of these years (2018, 2020, 2023) he achieved an over 85% (!!) match win rate vs Koreans. No other player ever came over 79%. Maru is 2nd at 78%, Serral 3rd at 76,76% and herO fourth with 74%. The win rates of Serral outperform those of Flash in his most dominant years.
- In 2023 his game win rate is 73,24% making him the only player to ever break the 70% game win rate barrier... 2nd closest is Serral with 69,86% and Maru 3rd with 69,44%.
- Serral holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place also Serral with 18 consecutive wins from 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019)
- Serral, among two others, won the most World Championships
- Serral has the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and he achieved this in 6 years, whereas it took Maru 10 years to accumulate 15, although GSL is 3 times per year.
But the most amazing feat I encountered while analyzing the data:
- Serral has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved. This stat is absolutely incredible and I cannot emphasize how much Serral distances the competition. But here are his stats versus the other contenders and other respected players:
vs Maru: 14:4:2
vs Dark: 9:5:1
vs GuMiho: 10:4:0
vs Solar: 16:7:1
vs Cure: 17:3:0
vs ByuN: 12:5:0
vs Classic: 8:2:0
vs Bunny: 9:2:0
vs stats: 9:4:0
vs soO: 8:4:0
vs Innovation: 16:8:0
vs Rogue: 8:6:0
vs Trap: 14:3:0
vs Zest: 10:5:0
vs Reynor: 31:16:0
vs MaxPax: 18:4:0
vs Heromarine: 26:4:0
Now there are softer things that need consideration like eras, competition, impact, resilience to patches, etc and I think the author did a pretty fair job at evaluating these. But to me, it comes down to two things.
First, Maru's inability to conquer the World Championship. Yes, he accomplished phenomenal feats in GSL, StarLeague and the other grand Korean Tournaments, but he never delivered when it everyone from around the world gathered.
Second, the peak dominance. Serral's stats are simply nuts... his win rates, tournament wins and the time in which he did it (only 6 years) is absolutely terrifying and excels EVERY OTHER player on this list in EVERY aspect. And it is not like Serral never played the top contenders from the past. Zest, Innovation, stats, Trap, Cure, Solar, Dark, herO, Maru, Byun are all names that were also active in the peak era of 2013-2015 and that Serral faced multiple times. Plus there are players like Clem, Reynor, MaxPax that older players haven't faced so the argument goes both ways.
Anyways, these are my two cents on this issue.
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On March 23 2024 04:27 UnLarva wrote:
Just for curiosity. Serral has been now #1 on Aligulac lists 119 times, since list 203 when he first time took the spot on Dec. 6. 2017.
Ever since some other player has held #1 only 40 times as following:
Maru (29 lists)
Lists 339, 340, 341, 342
Lists 332, 333
Lists 311, 312, 313
Lists 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235
Lists 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220
Clem (4 lists)
Lists 295, 296
Lists 292, 293
Reynor (7 lists)
Lists 271, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276, 277
...
Furthermore, Serral has never been lower than #2 since the list 202, unlike above listed players. His rise through the Aligulac ranks can be described as "meteoric", while his staying power at the top of the lists "monolithic". Also, particularly during last year his gap to #2 has been consistently increasing. Current list: 368
Sample size isn't anymore that small. HHoF feels broken. Broken by Serral.
Exactly... the Hall of Fame which is in essence a dominance algorithm is absurdly in favor of Serral. Serral sits at 50k points, Maru at 30k and the 3rd and 4th place at around 13k. Meaning Maru has more than double than 3rd and 4th place and Serral over 50% more than Maru. Simply absurd.
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On March 23 2024 04:35 LostUsername100 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 04:27 UnLarva wrote:
Just for curiosity. Serral has been now #1 on Aligulac lists 119 times, since list 203 when he first time took the spot on Dec. 6. 2017.
Ever since some other player has held #1 only 40 times as following:
Maru (29 lists)
Lists 339, 340, 341, 342
Lists 332, 333
Lists 311, 312, 313
Lists 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235
Lists 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220
Clem (4 lists)
Lists 295, 296
Lists 292, 293
Reynor (7 lists)
Lists 271, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276, 277
...
Furthermore, Serral has never been lower than #2 since the list 202, unlike above listed players. His rise through the Aligulac ranks can be described as "meteoric", while his staying power at the top of the lists "monolithic". Also, particularly during last year his gap to #2 has been consistently increasing. Current list: 368
Sample size isn't anymore that small. HHoF feels broken. Broken by Serral.
Yea I'm pretty sure (99.9% sure) you can run aligulac algorithm giving huge bias to Koreans (like 1000 extra starting rating) and Serral would still be by far be the #1 player in the world, even when comparing to top5 of race Serral would still be #1 by a lot. The fact he did this w/o strong Terrans/Protosses to practice against in 2017/2018 makes it even more ridiculous.
Yep. We need also remember that Serral doesn't usually match up against players lower than about Top 30-40, because he do not hobby with low tier tournaments, weeklies etc. His rating is continuously 'tested' as much as possible against the best the game can offer. In certain general sense region locked GSL filter only absolute Korean elite against him, while top foreigners (i.e. Reynor and Clem) have been his worst nemesis rating wise, "by stealing hard earned Korean rating points" from Serral's own, celestial rating bubble. That alleged "Bubble" is very much negligible when you watch evolution of his ratings sides by side with his sheet of progression of winning percentages vs players, Koreans and what not.
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On March 23 2024 04:40 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 02:59 Mmakorea wrote:
Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time One can argue over inconsistencies in regards to the criteria within the logic the writer used. For example: a. When you say at one time that it was a super close call between Serral and Maru how - at the same time - can you say that IEM 2024 would not make a difference? Or put differently: How many more tournaments, in which both players are active, need to be played to tilt the scale in Serral's favor if IEM was not enough, but both are supposedly close in the GOAT debate? b. Then there is the argumentation of longevity versus peak performance. In MVP's article it is described that he placed above Innovation because he was so dominant, even if not for long. On the contrary in Maru's article, it is stated that Serral has higher peak performances but Maru is hailed for his "otherworldly longevity". If you want to stay consistent, you have to choose between one, but cannot switch based on the player you like better, as it seems to be the case here. Defining criteria is fine... but you have to stick to them, otherwise the whole endeavor is arbitrary. But I agree. It is one person's opinion. But that doesn't stop me from voicing mine either And I think the author raises valid points for Maru's GOAT status, don't get me wrong. It was also nice to dwell in nostalgia while reading through the well written essays. But it is also the case that one's reasoning when establishing such a list should be on point, otherwise the scent of arbitrary metrics is too strong. I, for example, looked at the following metrics to have people as GOAT contenders and only one of them had to be achieved to play a role in my further analysis: 1. Minimum 4 years of having a an over 60% win rate versus top Korean players (to accommodate for longevity) 2. Having won at least 10 Premier Tournaments (Also longevity but also the skill to persist and win) 3. Having at least won 2 World Championships (As the highest peak where the best of the world congregate) These metrics can be fulfilled by every player who plays a role internationally and they were the entrance point to my evaluation. I further looked (only against top Korean competition to prevent people from claiming that non Koreans had it easier) at longest winning streaks, peak win rates, amount of peak win rates, win records of top contenders versus top Koreans and versus each other. These win rates/streaks were adjusted (meaning I took the win rates versus Koreans and added the respective player's win rate versus Serral, as he was also compared to everyone else) to include the only non Korean player in the list, which is Serral. And the evaluation of the raw data was pretty obvious. By any standard metric that can be applied to every player who plays internationally, Serral is the best. - He is one of two players to achieve the Triple Crown twice (Only MVP achieved the same) - He has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant - In three out of these years (2018, 2020, 2023) he achieved an over 85% (!!) match win rate vs Koreans. No other player ever came over 79%. Maru is 2nd at 78%, Serral 3rd at 76,76% and herO fourth with 74%. The win rates of Serral outperform those of Flash in his most dominant years. - In 2023 his game win rate is 73,24% making him the only player to ever break the 70% game win rate barrier... 2nd closest is Serral with 69,86% and Maru 3rd with 69,44%. - Serral holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place also Serral with 18 consecutive wins from 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - Serral, among two others, won the most World Championships - Serral has the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and he achieved this in 6 years, whereas it took Maru 10 years to accumulate 15, although GSL is 3 times per year. But the most amazing feat I encountered while analyzing the data: - Serral has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved. This stat is absolutely incredible and I cannot emphasize how much Serral distances the competition. But here are his stats versus the other contenders and other respected players: vs Maru: 14:4:2 vs Dark: 9:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 Now there are softer things that need consideration like eras, competition, impact, resilience to patches, etc and I think the author did a pretty fair job at evaluating these. But to me, it comes down to two things. First, Maru's inability to conquer the World Championship. Yes, he accomplished phenomenal feats in GSL, StarLeague and the other grand Korean Tournaments, but he never delivered when it everyone from around the world gathered. Second, the peak dominance. Serral's stats are simply nuts... his win rates, tournament wins and the time in which he did it (only 6 years) is absolutely terrifying and excels EVERY OTHER player on this list in EVERY aspect. And it is not like Serral never played the top contenders from the past. Zest, Innovation, stats, Trap, Cure, Solar, Dark, herO, Maru, Byun are all names that were also active in the peak era of 2013-2015 and that Serral faced multiple times. Plus there are players like Clem, Reynor, MaxPax that older players haven't faced so the argument goes both ways. Anyways, these are my two cents on this issue.
Thanks for taking the time to provide additional stats!
It’s safe to say that the majority of the people do have Serral as the Goat. OP is just making his own case for Maru (which is fine) even though there are lots of inconsistencies in his approach like you mentioned.
Personally to me, Maru was never the best player in any era that he played. MVP was better in WOL, Life and innovations achievements trumps Maru during the so called “hardest era of sc2”. Sure Maru won a SSL but that’s hardly newsworthy compare to his peers. Even Dear and Classic won GSL during that period. Lots of his peers has a better resume than Maru by the end of HOTS. LOTV era was basically all Serral and Rogue
Now the only thing that Maru has is that he competed in “pro league”, but if you look at his record. It’s not that impressive at all. Again this is my own opinion, I really don’t value pro league high at all since it’s already proven to be a “match fixed league” (due to the convicted parties). Who knows which games are legit or not so I basically toss any result from that league out the window. Similar to how ppl want to say WCS doesn’t mean anything since Koreans were locked out from competing in it
It’s doesn’t matter how much data and prove you provide to either the diehard fans of Maru and Serral. Nothing will change their goat opinion since it’s already cemented.
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On March 23 2024 05:36 Mmakorea wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 04:40 PremoBeats wrote:On March 23 2024 02:59 Mmakorea wrote:
Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time One can argue over inconsistencies in regards to the criteria within the logic the writer used. For example: a. When you say at one time that it was a super close call between Serral and Maru how - at the same time - can you say that IEM 2024 would not make a difference? Or put differently: How many more tournaments, in which both players are active, need to be played to tilt the scale in Serral's favor if IEM was not enough, but both are supposedly close in the GOAT debate? b. Then there is the argumentation of longevity versus peak performance. In MVP's article it is described that he placed above Innovation because he was so dominant, even if not for long. On the contrary in Maru's article, it is stated that Serral has higher peak performances but Maru is hailed for his "otherworldly longevity". If you want to stay consistent, you have to choose between one, but cannot switch based on the player you like better, as it seems to be the case here. Defining criteria is fine... but you have to stick to them, otherwise the whole endeavor is arbitrary. But I agree. It is one person's opinion. But that doesn't stop me from voicing mine either And I think the author raises valid points for Maru's GOAT status, don't get me wrong. It was also nice to dwell in nostalgia while reading through the well written essays. But it is also the case that one's reasoning when establishing such a list should be on point, otherwise the scent of arbitrary metrics is too strong. I, for example, looked at the following metrics to have people as GOAT contenders and only one of them had to be achieved to play a role in my further analysis: 1. Minimum 4 years of having a an over 60% win rate versus top Korean players (to accommodate for longevity) 2. Having won at least 10 Premier Tournaments (Also longevity but also the skill to persist and win) 3. Having at least won 2 World Championships (As the highest peak where the best of the world congregate) These metrics can be fulfilled by every player who plays a role internationally and they were the entrance point to my evaluation. I further looked (only against top Korean competition to prevent people from claiming that non Koreans had it easier) at longest winning streaks, peak win rates, amount of peak win rates, win records of top contenders versus top Koreans and versus each other. These win rates/streaks were adjusted (meaning I took the win rates versus Koreans and added the respective player's win rate versus Serral, as he was also compared to everyone else) to include the only non Korean player in the list, which is Serral. And the evaluation of the raw data was pretty obvious. By any standard metric that can be applied to every player who plays internationally, Serral is the best. - He is one of two players to achieve the Triple Crown twice (Only MVP achieved the same) - He has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant - In three out of these years (2018, 2020, 2023) he achieved an over 85% (!!) match win rate vs Koreans. No other player ever came over 79%. Maru is 2nd at 78%, Serral 3rd at 76,76% and herO fourth with 74%. The win rates of Serral outperform those of Flash in his most dominant years. - In 2023 his game win rate is 73,24% making him the only player to ever break the 70% game win rate barrier... 2nd closest is Serral with 69,86% and Maru 3rd with 69,44%. - Serral holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place also Serral with 18 consecutive wins from 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - Serral, among two others, won the most World Championships - Serral has the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and he achieved this in 6 years, whereas it took Maru 10 years to accumulate 15, although GSL is 3 times per year. But the most amazing feat I encountered while analyzing the data: - Serral has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved. This stat is absolutely incredible and I cannot emphasize how much Serral distances the competition. But here are his stats versus the other contenders and other respected players: vs Maru: 14:4:2 vs Dark: 9:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 Now there are softer things that need consideration like eras, competition, impact, resilience to patches, etc and I think the author did a pretty fair job at evaluating these. But to me, it comes down to two things. First, Maru's inability to conquer the World Championship. Yes, he accomplished phenomenal feats in GSL, StarLeague and the other grand Korean Tournaments, but he never delivered when it everyone from around the world gathered. Second, the peak dominance. Serral's stats are simply nuts... his win rates, tournament wins and the time in which he did it (only 6 years) is absolutely terrifying and excels EVERY OTHER player on this list in EVERY aspect. And it is not like Serral never played the top contenders from the past. Zest, Innovation, stats, Trap, Cure, Solar, Dark, herO, Maru, Byun are all names that were also active in the peak era of 2013-2015 and that Serral faced multiple times. Plus there are players like Clem, Reynor, MaxPax that older players haven't faced so the argument goes both ways. Anyways, these are my two cents on this issue. Thanks for taking the time to provide additional stats! It’s safe to say that the majority of the people do have Serral as the Goat. OP is just making his own case for Maru (which is fine) even though there are lots of inconsistencies in his approach like you mentioned. Personally to me, Maru was never the best player in any era that he played. MVP was better in WOL, Life and innovations achievements trumps Maru during the so called “hardest era of sc2”. Sure Maru won a SSL but that’s hardly newsworthy compare to his peers. Even Dear and Classic won GSL during that period. Lots of his peers has a better resume than Maru by the end of HOTS. LOTV era was basically all Serral and Rogue Now the only thing that Maru has is that he competed in “pro league”, but if you look at his record. It’s not that impressive at all. Again this is my own opinion, I really don’t value pro league high at all since it’s already proven to be a “match fixed league” (due to the convicted parties). Who knows which games are legit or not so I basically toss any result from that league out the window. Similar to how ppl want to say WCS doesn’t mean anything since Koreans were locked out from competing in it It’s doesn’t matter how much data and prove you provide to either the diehard fans of Maru and Serral. Nothing will change their goat opinion since it’s already cemented.
You make it sound like the GSLs Dear and Classic won were any different to the OSL Maru won
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On March 23 2024 05:36 Mmakorea wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 04:40 PremoBeats wrote:On March 23 2024 02:59 Mmakorea wrote:
Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time One can argue over inconsistencies in regards to the criteria within the logic the writer used. For example: a. When you say at one time that it was a super close call between Serral and Maru how - at the same time - can you say that IEM 2024 would not make a difference? Or put differently: How many more tournaments, in which both players are active, need to be played to tilt the scale in Serral's favor if IEM was not enough, but both are supposedly close in the GOAT debate? b. Then there is the argumentation of longevity versus peak performance. In MVP's article it is described that he placed above Innovation because he was so dominant, even if not for long. On the contrary in Maru's article, it is stated that Serral has higher peak performances but Maru is hailed for his "otherworldly longevity". If you want to stay consistent, you have to choose between one, but cannot switch based on the player you like better, as it seems to be the case here. Defining criteria is fine... but you have to stick to them, otherwise the whole endeavor is arbitrary. But I agree. It is one person's opinion. But that doesn't stop me from voicing mine either And I think the author raises valid points for Maru's GOAT status, don't get me wrong. It was also nice to dwell in nostalgia while reading through the well written essays. But it is also the case that one's reasoning when establishing such a list should be on point, otherwise the scent of arbitrary metrics is too strong. I, for example, looked at the following metrics to have people as GOAT contenders and only one of them had to be achieved to play a role in my further analysis: 1. Minimum 4 years of having a an over 60% win rate versus top Korean players (to accommodate for longevity) 2. Having won at least 10 Premier Tournaments (Also longevity but also the skill to persist and win) 3. Having at least won 2 World Championships (As the highest peak where the best of the world congregate) These metrics can be fulfilled by every player who plays a role internationally and they were the entrance point to my evaluation. I further looked (only against top Korean competition to prevent people from claiming that non Koreans had it easier) at longest winning streaks, peak win rates, amount of peak win rates, win records of top contenders versus top Koreans and versus each other. These win rates/streaks were adjusted (meaning I took the win rates versus Koreans and added the respective player's win rate versus Serral, as he was also compared to everyone else) to include the only non Korean player in the list, which is Serral. And the evaluation of the raw data was pretty obvious. By any standard metric that can be applied to every player who plays internationally, Serral is the best. - He is one of two players to achieve the Triple Crown twice (Only MVP achieved the same) - He has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant - In three out of these years (2018, 2020, 2023) he achieved an over 85% (!!) match win rate vs Koreans. No other player ever came over 79%. Maru is 2nd at 78%, Serral 3rd at 76,76% and herO fourth with 74%. The win rates of Serral outperform those of Flash in his most dominant years. - In 2023 his game win rate is 73,24% making him the only player to ever break the 70% game win rate barrier... 2nd closest is Serral with 69,86% and Maru 3rd with 69,44%. - Serral holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place also Serral with 18 consecutive wins from 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - Serral, among two others, won the most World Championships - Serral has the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and he achieved this in 6 years, whereas it took Maru 10 years to accumulate 15, although GSL is 3 times per year. But the most amazing feat I encountered while analyzing the data: - Serral has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved. This stat is absolutely incredible and I cannot emphasize how much Serral distances the competition. But here are his stats versus the other contenders and other respected players: vs Maru: 14:4:2 vs Dark: 9:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 Now there are softer things that need consideration like eras, competition, impact, resilience to patches, etc and I think the author did a pretty fair job at evaluating these. But to me, it comes down to two things. First, Maru's inability to conquer the World Championship. Yes, he accomplished phenomenal feats in GSL, StarLeague and the other grand Korean Tournaments, but he never delivered when it everyone from around the world gathered. Second, the peak dominance. Serral's stats are simply nuts... his win rates, tournament wins and the time in which he did it (only 6 years) is absolutely terrifying and excels EVERY OTHER player on this list in EVERY aspect. And it is not like Serral never played the top contenders from the past. Zest, Innovation, stats, Trap, Cure, Solar, Dark, herO, Maru, Byun are all names that were also active in the peak era of 2013-2015 and that Serral faced multiple times. Plus there are players like Clem, Reynor, MaxPax that older players haven't faced so the argument goes both ways. Anyways, these are my two cents on this issue. Thanks for taking the time to provide additional stats! It’s safe to say that the majority of the people do have Serral as the Goat. OP is just making his own case for Maru (which is fine) even though there are lots of inconsistencies in his approach like you mentioned. Personally to me, Maru was never the best player in any era that he played. MVP was better in WOL, Life and innovations achievements trumps Maru during the so called “hardest era of sc2”. Sure Maru won a SSL but that’s hardly newsworthy compare to his peers. Even Dear and Classic won GSL during that period. Lots of his peers has a better resume than Maru by the end of HOTS. LOTV era was basically all Serral and Rogue Now the only thing that Maru has is that he competed in “pro league”, but if you look at his record. It’s not that impressive at all. Again this is my own opinion, I really don’t value pro league high at all since it’s already proven to be a “match fixed league” (due to the convicted parties). Who knows which games are legit or not so I basically toss any result from that league out the window. Similar to how ppl want to say WCS doesn’t mean anything since Koreans were locked out from competing in it It’s doesn’t matter how much data and prove you provide to either the diehard fans of Maru and Serral. Nothing will change their goat opinion since it’s already cemented.
Yet time and time again maru fans will acknowledge that who is the goat is up for debate. Only one group of people are entrenched in their position to the exclusion of everyone else. Note that it doesn't matter if the debate is serral v. maru or serral v. rogue. No matter what serral is the goat and every other opinion is unreasonable. That group is not maru fans.
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On March 23 2024 05:59 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 05:36 Mmakorea wrote:On March 23 2024 04:40 PremoBeats wrote:On March 23 2024 02:59 Mmakorea wrote:
Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time One can argue over inconsistencies in regards to the criteria within the logic the writer used. For example: a. When you say at one time that it was a super close call between Serral and Maru how - at the same time - can you say that IEM 2024 would not make a difference? Or put differently: How many more tournaments, in which both players are active, need to be played to tilt the scale in Serral's favor if IEM was not enough, but both are supposedly close in the GOAT debate? b. Then there is the argumentation of longevity versus peak performance. In MVP's article it is described that he placed above Innovation because he was so dominant, even if not for long. On the contrary in Maru's article, it is stated that Serral has higher peak performances but Maru is hailed for his "otherworldly longevity". If you want to stay consistent, you have to choose between one, but cannot switch based on the player you like better, as it seems to be the case here. Defining criteria is fine... but you have to stick to them, otherwise the whole endeavor is arbitrary. But I agree. It is one person's opinion. But that doesn't stop me from voicing mine either And I think the author raises valid points for Maru's GOAT status, don't get me wrong. It was also nice to dwell in nostalgia while reading through the well written essays. But it is also the case that one's reasoning when establishing such a list should be on point, otherwise the scent of arbitrary metrics is too strong. I, for example, looked at the following metrics to have people as GOAT contenders and only one of them had to be achieved to play a role in my further analysis: 1. Minimum 4 years of having a an over 60% win rate versus top Korean players (to accommodate for longevity) 2. Having won at least 10 Premier Tournaments (Also longevity but also the skill to persist and win) 3. Having at least won 2 World Championships (As the highest peak where the best of the world congregate) These metrics can be fulfilled by every player who plays a role internationally and they were the entrance point to my evaluation. I further looked (only against top Korean competition to prevent people from claiming that non Koreans had it easier) at longest winning streaks, peak win rates, amount of peak win rates, win records of top contenders versus top Koreans and versus each other. These win rates/streaks were adjusted (meaning I took the win rates versus Koreans and added the respective player's win rate versus Serral, as he was also compared to everyone else) to include the only non Korean player in the list, which is Serral. And the evaluation of the raw data was pretty obvious. By any standard metric that can be applied to every player who plays internationally, Serral is the best. - He is one of two players to achieve the Triple Crown twice (Only MVP achieved the same) - He has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant - In three out of these years (2018, 2020, 2023) he achieved an over 85% (!!) match win rate vs Koreans. No other player ever came over 79%. Maru is 2nd at 78%, Serral 3rd at 76,76% and herO fourth with 74%. The win rates of Serral outperform those of Flash in his most dominant years. - In 2023 his game win rate is 73,24% making him the only player to ever break the 70% game win rate barrier... 2nd closest is Serral with 69,86% and Maru 3rd with 69,44%. - Serral holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place also Serral with 18 consecutive wins from 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - Serral, among two others, won the most World Championships - Serral has the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and he achieved this in 6 years, whereas it took Maru 10 years to accumulate 15, although GSL is 3 times per year. But the most amazing feat I encountered while analyzing the data: - Serral has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved. This stat is absolutely incredible and I cannot emphasize how much Serral distances the competition. But here are his stats versus the other contenders and other respected players: vs Maru: 14:4:2 vs Dark: 9:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 Now there are softer things that need consideration like eras, competition, impact, resilience to patches, etc and I think the author did a pretty fair job at evaluating these. But to me, it comes down to two things. First, Maru's inability to conquer the World Championship. Yes, he accomplished phenomenal feats in GSL, StarLeague and the other grand Korean Tournaments, but he never delivered when it everyone from around the world gathered. Second, the peak dominance. Serral's stats are simply nuts... his win rates, tournament wins and the time in which he did it (only 6 years) is absolutely terrifying and excels EVERY OTHER player on this list in EVERY aspect. And it is not like Serral never played the top contenders from the past. Zest, Innovation, stats, Trap, Cure, Solar, Dark, herO, Maru, Byun are all names that were also active in the peak era of 2013-2015 and that Serral faced multiple times. Plus there are players like Clem, Reynor, MaxPax that older players haven't faced so the argument goes both ways. Anyways, these are my two cents on this issue. Thanks for taking the time to provide additional stats! It’s safe to say that the majority of the people do have Serral as the Goat. OP is just making his own case for Maru (which is fine) even though there are lots of inconsistencies in his approach like you mentioned. Personally to me, Maru was never the best player in any era that he played. MVP was better in WOL, Life and innovations achievements trumps Maru during the so called “hardest era of sc2”. Sure Maru won a SSL but that’s hardly newsworthy compare to his peers. Even Dear and Classic won GSL during that period. Lots of his peers has a better resume than Maru by the end of HOTS. LOTV era was basically all Serral and Rogue Now the only thing that Maru has is that he competed in “pro league”, but if you look at his record. It’s not that impressive at all. Again this is my own opinion, I really don’t value pro league high at all since it’s already proven to be a “match fixed league” (due to the convicted parties). Who knows which games are legit or not so I basically toss any result from that league out the window. Similar to how ppl want to say WCS doesn’t mean anything since Koreans were locked out from competing in it It’s doesn’t matter how much data and prove you provide to either the diehard fans of Maru and Serral. Nothing will change their goat opinion since it’s already cemented. You make it sound like the GSLs Dear and Classic won were any different to the OSL Maru won
"Even Dear and Classic won GSL during that period."
"Lots of his peers has a better resume than Maru by the end of HOTS."
I'm pretty sure these 2 sentences are not referring to the same players. He mentioned Innovation and Life as having better achievements than Maru during HotS. He's exactly saying that because even players like Dear and Classic won GSL, Maru winning an OSL isn't that special.
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7 GSLS.
The ONLY one in the entire world to have a G5L trophy.
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I don't think that starcraft2 has a "goat". People mentioned flash a bit of context here :
2009-10 season, the height of StarCraft Proleague and KeSPA; 12 teams, two Proleague matches a week, 3 OSLs and MSLs in a year, happening concurrently. Teams like SKT or KT or Samsung you know not teams consisting of 1 man with money somewhere in china who like esport (and we thanks him for that) (provocative but you get the idea)
Flash’s results?
GOMTV Averatec-Intel Classic 3 = 1st, 2009 NATE MSL = 2nd, 2009 EVER OSL = 1st, Korean Air OSL Season 1 = 2nd, Hana Daetoo Securities MSL = 1st, WCG Korea - 2nd, Bigfile MSL - 1st, Korean Air OSL Season 2 - 1st, WCG World Championship - 1st, Proleague - 57-16 as his appearance patterns were super predictable so sniping him was easy.
Serral’s competition is very good and I do think he's certainly the best for years now.
However and for me this is important and we should be honest about that : the scene is so damn small, no new players etc... I like this game very much and will continue to watch but let's not kid ourselves there : The rest of esport has moved on. The level of professionalism is barely there, top teams in LOL or counter strike are huge and the competition is massive.
Not the fault of Serral though he's the best since 2018 that's for sure. But his achievements are not comparable to what Flash has done, it would maybe if he did that between 2013 and 2015 but he was not there, not his fault too nobody has done that.
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On March 23 2024 06:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 05:59 Durnuu wrote:On March 23 2024 05:36 Mmakorea wrote:On March 23 2024 04:40 PremoBeats wrote:On March 23 2024 02:59 Mmakorea wrote:
Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time One can argue over inconsistencies in regards to the criteria within the logic the writer used. For example: a. When you say at one time that it was a super close call between Serral and Maru how - at the same time - can you say that IEM 2024 would not make a difference? Or put differently: How many more tournaments, in which both players are active, need to be played to tilt the scale in Serral's favor if IEM was not enough, but both are supposedly close in the GOAT debate? b. Then there is the argumentation of longevity versus peak performance. In MVP's article it is described that he placed above Innovation because he was so dominant, even if not for long. On the contrary in Maru's article, it is stated that Serral has higher peak performances but Maru is hailed for his "otherworldly longevity". If you want to stay consistent, you have to choose between one, but cannot switch based on the player you like better, as it seems to be the case here. Defining criteria is fine... but you have to stick to them, otherwise the whole endeavor is arbitrary. But I agree. It is one person's opinion. But that doesn't stop me from voicing mine either And I think the author raises valid points for Maru's GOAT status, don't get me wrong. It was also nice to dwell in nostalgia while reading through the well written essays. But it is also the case that one's reasoning when establishing such a list should be on point, otherwise the scent of arbitrary metrics is too strong. I, for example, looked at the following metrics to have people as GOAT contenders and only one of them had to be achieved to play a role in my further analysis: 1. Minimum 4 years of having a an over 60% win rate versus top Korean players (to accommodate for longevity) 2. Having won at least 10 Premier Tournaments (Also longevity but also the skill to persist and win) 3. Having at least won 2 World Championships (As the highest peak where the best of the world congregate) These metrics can be fulfilled by every player who plays a role internationally and they were the entrance point to my evaluation. I further looked (only against top Korean competition to prevent people from claiming that non Koreans had it easier) at longest winning streaks, peak win rates, amount of peak win rates, win records of top contenders versus top Koreans and versus each other. These win rates/streaks were adjusted (meaning I took the win rates versus Koreans and added the respective player's win rate versus Serral, as he was also compared to everyone else) to include the only non Korean player in the list, which is Serral. And the evaluation of the raw data was pretty obvious. By any standard metric that can be applied to every player who plays internationally, Serral is the best. - He is one of two players to achieve the Triple Crown twice (Only MVP achieved the same) - He has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant - In three out of these years (2018, 2020, 2023) he achieved an over 85% (!!) match win rate vs Koreans. No other player ever came over 79%. Maru is 2nd at 78%, Serral 3rd at 76,76% and herO fourth with 74%. The win rates of Serral outperform those of Flash in his most dominant years. - In 2023 his game win rate is 73,24% making him the only player to ever break the 70% game win rate barrier... 2nd closest is Serral with 69,86% and Maru 3rd with 69,44%. - Serral holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place also Serral with 18 consecutive wins from 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - Serral, among two others, won the most World Championships - Serral has the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and he achieved this in 6 years, whereas it took Maru 10 years to accumulate 15, although GSL is 3 times per year. But the most amazing feat I encountered while analyzing the data: - Serral has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved. This stat is absolutely incredible and I cannot emphasize how much Serral distances the competition. But here are his stats versus the other contenders and other respected players: vs Maru: 14:4:2 vs Dark: 9:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 Now there are softer things that need consideration like eras, competition, impact, resilience to patches, etc and I think the author did a pretty fair job at evaluating these. But to me, it comes down to two things. First, Maru's inability to conquer the World Championship. Yes, he accomplished phenomenal feats in GSL, StarLeague and the other grand Korean Tournaments, but he never delivered when it everyone from around the world gathered. Second, the peak dominance. Serral's stats are simply nuts... his win rates, tournament wins and the time in which he did it (only 6 years) is absolutely terrifying and excels EVERY OTHER player on this list in EVERY aspect. And it is not like Serral never played the top contenders from the past. Zest, Innovation, stats, Trap, Cure, Solar, Dark, herO, Maru, Byun are all names that were also active in the peak era of 2013-2015 and that Serral faced multiple times. Plus there are players like Clem, Reynor, MaxPax that older players haven't faced so the argument goes both ways. Anyways, these are my two cents on this issue. Thanks for taking the time to provide additional stats! It’s safe to say that the majority of the people do have Serral as the Goat. OP is just making his own case for Maru (which is fine) even though there are lots of inconsistencies in his approach like you mentioned. Personally to me, Maru was never the best player in any era that he played. MVP was better in WOL, Life and innovations achievements trumps Maru during the so called “hardest era of sc2”. Sure Maru won a SSL but that’s hardly newsworthy compare to his peers. Even Dear and Classic won GSL during that period. Lots of his peers has a better resume than Maru by the end of HOTS. LOTV era was basically all Serral and Rogue Now the only thing that Maru has is that he competed in “pro league”, but if you look at his record. It’s not that impressive at all. Again this is my own opinion, I really don’t value pro league high at all since it’s already proven to be a “match fixed league” (due to the convicted parties). Who knows which games are legit or not so I basically toss any result from that league out the window. Similar to how ppl want to say WCS doesn’t mean anything since Koreans were locked out from competing in it It’s doesn’t matter how much data and prove you provide to either the diehard fans of Maru and Serral. Nothing will change their goat opinion since it’s already cemented. You make it sound like the GSLs Dear and Classic won were any different to the OSL Maru won "Even Dear and Classic won GSL during that period." "Lots of his peers has a better resume than Maru by the end of HOTS." I'm pretty sure these 2 sentences are not referring to the same players. He mentioned Innovation and Life as having better achievements than Maru during HotS. He's exactly saying that because even players like Dear and Classic won GSL, Maru winning an OSL isn't that special.
Yea man even Dear and classic those scrubs could win a gsl where one of them had one of the highest protoss peaks we've known until then and the other is one of the most overlooked protosses with actually really good achievements and surely a case for the upper echelons of protoss players.
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France12771 Posts
On March 23 2024 06:41 Pentarp wrote:
7 GSLS.
The ONLY one in the entire world to have a G5L trophy.
The most crazy thing though imo is the 4 GSL in a row, that’s a crazy feat especially as early as 2018-2019 where Terran wasn’t particularly strong. The most done in a row was 2, which is already impressive given how cut throat GSL was back in the days. TY was almost able to do three in a row but he did 2 in a year which is already a good feat, and even then he was relatively lucky to do it in 2020 short after Zerg nerfs / lots of TvT his best match-up.
The fact that every group (even those that are not labeled as group of death) in the GSL could eliminate a WC / GSL champion, like it happened to Rogue and so many others (or Reynor after he won WC…), is what makes the 4 victories in a row incredible.
Not only that, but Maru had to clutch a 4-3 victory against TvT master TY (present in this GOAT list at a very respectable spot) in an epic finals to even do 3 in a row.
And his 4th in a row was also impressive, because Classic was just murdering terrans left and right in this period iirc, with like 16w-1l record in the matchup.
Yet, I acknowledge that Rogue, or Serral, could be considered GOAT above Maru (because of his lack of official WC titles, so WESG doesn’t count). It’s crazy to me that people are so biased by the foreign casters / players (who have been heavily biased towards Serral, and Rogue in the case of Artosis) that they think Maru at #1 is ridiculous. It’s not the only option for #1 goat, but it’s not a dumb or ridiculous take.
Anyways, this whole list got a lot of activity back on the forum, it was pretty effing cool.
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EPT
