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Your graph literally show Terran would won NOTHING without Maru in 2018, but his impact is not that great? And your flaw is that if that player is removed from the equation, who is the one would win that title? So in Maru case, if he wasnt winning all those title, would it just "disappear" or it should have gone to the runner up? Same case with Serral, how many of his Final win was ZvZ? Meaning even if he didnt win, it would have been any other Zerg?
And why you remove 3 top players from each race? Not 2 or just 1? I thought you want to test the impact of the one player. Zerg is known to be top-heavy AF during LOTV. Dark-Serral-Rogue-Reynor probably winning 70% of the Zerg premiere title combined, so you remove 3 of them from any top tournaments, Zerg medals counts will drop considerably.
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I asked my girlfriend, who doesn't know about the articles, "Who is SC2 goat?" She has been watching Sc2 for ~9 years, so she knows a ton of players.
- "A bear cub" - she answered with a couple of seconds of hesitation. She often calls Maru like this.
- Why?
- He could come back from the deepest shithole and win the game against the odds.
I would agree. When Serral wins, it's like "all happened according to plan, when needed, no rush, calculated."
When Maru wins, sometimes it's like, "MAN, HOW YOU DID IT?!?" Just play like Maru, we all know the key to success.
And that's only one of many points I would have against Serral as the goat and for Maru top-1.
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On March 22 2024 00:59 imData wrote:
Maru started winning when the GSL had already lost its meaning of best league in the world and when the winner was basically the best TvT player.
Saying Serral is not the GOAT because he has never competed in the GSL (even though everytime he went to Korea he just crushed the competition) is completely delusional.
Maru is fighting over 2nd place with Rogue (and he's not the one winning) overall Rogue has a better career than Maru whose only achievement is winning a tier-2 tournament multiple times (yes, GSL is tier 2 after 2016, the Blizzcon/IEM/DH are tier 1).
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
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France12992 Posts
On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 01:53 Poopi wrote:On March 22 2024 01:35 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:22 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 22 2024 01:06 Moonerz wrote:On March 21 2024 23:38 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 21 2024 23:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 21 2024 20:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 21 2024 20:05 PremoBeats wrote:On March 21 2024 19:18 Mizenhauer wrote:
[quote]
Had to make a few changes due to shoddy math (Maru makes the finals every 3.2 seasons) but the point stands.
To add some context, 3.2 is a total aberration. Mvp is the only player to match Maru's mark (he made the finals every 3.2 seasons in an entirely different era of the game) You can insist that Serral would surpass Maru, but Maru's record is already lightyears above Rogue (6.5), Dark (6.4), soO (4.5), INnoVation (6.75), TY (6.25), Zest (6.0) (all of whom are roughly around 1 final appearance every 6 season), It would be unrealistic to expect anything much lower than 3.2. Even from Serral.
But wouldn't it be more adequate to compare Maru's dominant years starting from 2018? Those would be 18 GSLs and Maru reached the finals 10 times, winning 7. That would be a final participation rate of 55%. These were also Serral's strongest years... so if he would have participated in GSL it would be rather reasonable to assume he would have won in that time too and even kicking Maru out at one of those 7 wins, even if he won not himself afterwards. Maru was plenty dominant before 2018. He won OSL and SSL which was tied for the most KIL titles during HotS (they were on the same level as Code S). He was best Korean Terran for the first half of 2014, but never had a shot at winning due to balance. He had the best Proleague season of all time in 2016 (he won mvp that year). He was rookie of the year in his first year with Jin Air and was one of the best Proleague players, period. This is why a lot of people point to 2013-2015 as the most competitive era. The definition of dominant was just different back then. Maru has a claim for best player of the period and he won a KIL once in every eight seasons he played. If I add in SSL/OSL to the Code S numbers he makes the finals once every three seasons. AKA his performances in Heart of the Swarm actually set him further apart from everyone else. I'm on board with Serral reaching the finals approximately once every three seasons and, thankfully, we have a good metric to get a sense of this. Serral has played in 14 World Championships in his career. He has reached the finals of four. That's once every 3.5 world championships. Lines up pretty well with what Maru has done and what I'd expect of Serral. "He was best Korean Terran for the first half of 2014, but never had a shot at winning due to balance." Are we considering balance now for GOATs? Or is this just an opinion separate from the articles' ranking criteria. "The definition of dominant was just different back then. Maru has a claim for best player of the period and he won a KIL once in every eight seasons he played." Just to entertain this point a bit, if you assume that that's what dominance looks like, then you can define 2 KIL wins during HotS to be dominant as you said. But that feels a bit backwards to me to define that as dominant, if someone was only able to win a couple tournaments out of many. Isn't dominant supposed to be... much more impressive than that? A clear cut above the other players? Rain also won 2 KIL during HotS. Meanwhile Taeja is winning a bunch of international weekenders and making lots of money that way. Life as well, but he also won 2 GSL and a WC (revoked). sOs won 3 WCs. All of these players' accomplishments during HotS were great. I'm not sure if I would call Maru "dominant". He is tied for the most KIL wins during HotS, sure, but not exactly above his peers in that regard. Dominance was not the best word choice (something in the vein of superiority or a catch all like "tier one player" fits better). It's fair to say, however, that he outperformed pretty much everyone outside of a group of ten or so player with which he was relatively even. Where he fell within that group is harder to figure out than the GOAT rankings, if I'm being honest. And, yes, balance actually was ridiculous in 2014. There are a large number of people who discredit Serral's achievements because Zerg was good (one of the stupidest things I've ever heard). Maru never won Code S in 2014, but you can't look at the top 16 of Season 1 and 2 in good faith and say there's nothing ridiculous going on as far as Terran representation. ![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/Season_1.jpg) ![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/Season_2.jpg) Without looking it up, this has to be the heavy rain map pool right? God that was a nightmare as a Terran it felt like every map was screaming please blink into my main. Edit: yup that's the map pool. Lol They called it PvProleague for a reason. We're calling the GSL from 2018 to nowadays GomTvT for a reason. Outside of Maru, terrans were winning basically peanuts money in 2018-2019. Terran was doing pretty bad already in 2018, especially in macro game TvP (and TvZ). There was no hope for Terran to win tournaments if Maru didn’t perform I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race).
 Statistics/2018
Maru is #2 and the 2nd Terran who won the most money is at #10, it’s SpeCial, helped by the fact that he is in a very weak region that still gives money
Statistics/2019
INno won big money with WESG, but otherwise it’s just Maru that is winning money with Terran in 2019 (the race as a whole won a little less than protoss, and obviously far less than Zerg since it was the most OP race by far in 2019)
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On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:53 Poopi wrote:On March 22 2024 01:35 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:22 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 22 2024 01:06 Moonerz wrote:On March 21 2024 23:38 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 21 2024 23:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 21 2024 20:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 21 2024 20:05 PremoBeats wrote:
[quote]
But wouldn't it be more adequate to compare Maru's dominant years starting from 2018? Those would be 18 GSLs and Maru reached the finals 10 times, winning 7. That would be a final participation rate of 55%. These were also Serral's strongest years... so if he would have participated in GSL it would be rather reasonable to assume he would have won in that time too and even kicking Maru out at one of those 7 wins, even if he won not himself afterwards.
Maru was plenty dominant before 2018. He won OSL and SSL which was tied for the most KIL titles during HotS (they were on the same level as Code S). He was best Korean Terran for the first half of 2014, but never had a shot at winning due to balance. He had the best Proleague season of all time in 2016 (he won mvp that year). He was rookie of the year in his first year with Jin Air and was one of the best Proleague players, period. This is why a lot of people point to 2013-2015 as the most competitive era. The definition of dominant was just different back then. Maru has a claim for best player of the period and he won a KIL once in every eight seasons he played. If I add in SSL/OSL to the Code S numbers he makes the finals once every three seasons. AKA his performances in Heart of the Swarm actually set him further apart from everyone else. I'm on board with Serral reaching the finals approximately once every three seasons and, thankfully, we have a good metric to get a sense of this. Serral has played in 14 World Championships in his career. He has reached the finals of four. That's once every 3.5 world championships. Lines up pretty well with what Maru has done and what I'd expect of Serral. "He was best Korean Terran for the first half of 2014, but never had a shot at winning due to balance." Are we considering balance now for GOATs? Or is this just an opinion separate from the articles' ranking criteria. "The definition of dominant was just different back then. Maru has a claim for best player of the period and he won a KIL once in every eight seasons he played." Just to entertain this point a bit, if you assume that that's what dominance looks like, then you can define 2 KIL wins during HotS to be dominant as you said. But that feels a bit backwards to me to define that as dominant, if someone was only able to win a couple tournaments out of many. Isn't dominant supposed to be... much more impressive than that? A clear cut above the other players? Rain also won 2 KIL during HotS. Meanwhile Taeja is winning a bunch of international weekenders and making lots of money that way. Life as well, but he also won 2 GSL and a WC (revoked). sOs won 3 WCs. All of these players' accomplishments during HotS were great. I'm not sure if I would call Maru "dominant". He is tied for the most KIL wins during HotS, sure, but not exactly above his peers in that regard. Dominance was not the best word choice (something in the vein of superiority or a catch all like "tier one player" fits better). It's fair to say, however, that he outperformed pretty much everyone outside of a group of ten or so player with which he was relatively even. Where he fell within that group is harder to figure out than the GOAT rankings, if I'm being honest. And, yes, balance actually was ridiculous in 2014. There are a large number of people who discredit Serral's achievements because Zerg was good (one of the stupidest things I've ever heard). Maru never won Code S in 2014, but you can't look at the top 16 of Season 1 and 2 in good faith and say there's nothing ridiculous going on as far as Terran representation. Without looking it up, this has to be the heavy rain map pool right? God that was a nightmare as a Terran it felt like every map was screaming please blink into my main. Edit: yup that's the map pool. Lol They called it PvProleague for a reason. We're calling the GSL from 2018 to nowadays GomTvT for a reason. Outside of Maru, terrans were winning basically peanuts money in 2018-2019. Terran was doing pretty bad already in 2018, especially in macro game TvP (and TvZ). There was no hope for Terran to win tournaments if Maru didn’t perform I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race). Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers?
The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won.
I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page.
I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won.
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On March 22 2024 03:13 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 00:59 imData wrote:
Maru started winning when the GSL had already lost its meaning of best league in the world and when the winner was basically the best TvT player.
Saying Serral is not the GOAT because he has never competed in the GSL (even though everytime he went to Korea he just crushed the competition) is completely delusional.
Maru is fighting over 2nd place with Rogue (and he's not the one winning) overall Rogue has a better career than Maru whose only achievement is winning a tier-2 tournament multiple times (yes, GSL is tier 2 after 2016, the Blizzcon/IEM/DH are tier 1). You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
PiG just released a video about this that I watched just after making this post and he says the exact same things I did. Is it enough for you?
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On March 22 2024 03:32 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:53 Poopi wrote:On March 22 2024 01:35 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:22 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 22 2024 01:06 Moonerz wrote:On March 21 2024 23:38 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 21 2024 23:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 21 2024 20:31 Mizenhauer wrote:
[quote]
Maru was plenty dominant before 2018. He won OSL and SSL which was tied for the most KIL titles during HotS (they were on the same level as Code S). He was best Korean Terran for the first half of 2014, but never had a shot at winning due to balance. He had the best Proleague season of all time in 2016 (he won mvp that year). He was rookie of the year in his first year with Jin Air and was one of the best Proleague players, period.
This is why a lot of people point to 2013-2015 as the most competitive era. The definition of dominant was just different back then. Maru has a claim for best player of the period and he won a KIL once in every eight seasons he played. If I add in SSL/OSL to the Code S numbers he makes the finals once every three seasons. AKA his performances in Heart of the Swarm actually set him further apart from everyone else.
I'm on board with Serral reaching the finals approximately once every three seasons and, thankfully, we have a good metric to get a sense of this. Serral has played in 14 World Championships in his career. He has reached the finals of four. That's once every 3.5 world championships. Lines up pretty well with what Maru has done and what I'd expect of Serral.
"He was best Korean Terran for the first half of 2014, but never had a shot at winning due to balance." Are we considering balance now for GOATs? Or is this just an opinion separate from the articles' ranking criteria. "The definition of dominant was just different back then. Maru has a claim for best player of the period and he won a KIL once in every eight seasons he played." Just to entertain this point a bit, if you assume that that's what dominance looks like, then you can define 2 KIL wins during HotS to be dominant as you said. But that feels a bit backwards to me to define that as dominant, if someone was only able to win a couple tournaments out of many. Isn't dominant supposed to be... much more impressive than that? A clear cut above the other players? Rain also won 2 KIL during HotS. Meanwhile Taeja is winning a bunch of international weekenders and making lots of money that way. Life as well, but he also won 2 GSL and a WC (revoked). sOs won 3 WCs. All of these players' accomplishments during HotS were great. I'm not sure if I would call Maru "dominant". He is tied for the most KIL wins during HotS, sure, but not exactly above his peers in that regard. Dominance was not the best word choice (something in the vein of superiority or a catch all like "tier one player" fits better). It's fair to say, however, that he outperformed pretty much everyone outside of a group of ten or so player with which he was relatively even. Where he fell within that group is harder to figure out than the GOAT rankings, if I'm being honest. And, yes, balance actually was ridiculous in 2014. There are a large number of people who discredit Serral's achievements because Zerg was good (one of the stupidest things I've ever heard). Maru never won Code S in 2014, but you can't look at the top 16 of Season 1 and 2 in good faith and say there's nothing ridiculous going on as far as Terran representation. Without looking it up, this has to be the heavy rain map pool right? God that was a nightmare as a Terran it felt like every map was screaming please blink into my main. Edit: yup that's the map pool. Lol They called it PvProleague for a reason. We're calling the GSL from 2018 to nowadays GomTvT for a reason. Outside of Maru, terrans were winning basically peanuts money in 2018-2019. Terran was doing pretty bad already in 2018, especially in macro game TvP (and TvZ). There was no hope for Terran to win tournaments if Maru didn’t perform I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race). Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers? The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won. I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page. I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won.
Thanks, I am curious why you decided to remove the top3 and not just top1. Also curious to see the same graphs with top 1, top 2 and top 3 (and so on if you like but I think that will be good enough) removed alongside of the name of the players removed.
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On March 22 2024 03:34 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 03:13 goldensail wrote:On March 22 2024 00:59 imData wrote:
Maru started winning when the GSL had already lost its meaning of best league in the world and when the winner was basically the best TvT player.
Saying Serral is not the GOAT because he has never competed in the GSL (even though everytime he went to Korea he just crushed the competition) is completely delusional.
Maru is fighting over 2nd place with Rogue (and he's not the one winning) overall Rogue has a better career than Maru whose only achievement is winning a tier-2 tournament multiple times (yes, GSL is tier 2 after 2016, the Blizzcon/IEM/DH are tier 1). You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. PiG just released a video about this that I watched just after making this post and he says the exact same things I did. Is it enough for you?
That's just an appeal to authority. You were given legitimate reasons why your points were wrong. Relying on pig for support doesn't insulate your points
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United States1940 Posts
On March 22 2024 03:42 lokol4890 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 03:34 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:13 goldensail wrote:On March 22 2024 00:59 imData wrote:
Maru started winning when the GSL had already lost its meaning of best league in the world and when the winner was basically the best TvT player.
Saying Serral is not the GOAT because he has never competed in the GSL (even though everytime he went to Korea he just crushed the competition) is completely delusional.
Maru is fighting over 2nd place with Rogue (and he's not the one winning) overall Rogue has a better career than Maru whose only achievement is winning a tier-2 tournament multiple times (yes, GSL is tier 2 after 2016, the Blizzcon/IEM/DH are tier 1). You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. PiG just released a video about this that I watched just after making this post and he says the exact same things I did. Is it enough for you? That's just an appeal to authority. You were given legitimate reasons why your points were wrong. Relying on pig for support doesn't insulate your points
I give credit to Pig for reading some (Artosis didn't even open the article, kinda depressing to see someone who I looked up to become a react andy who puts no effort into talking about a game he is such a big part of) , sadly he got derailed about 500 words into a 7.5k+ word article and never actually covered the case for Maru.
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Fwiw pig has been calling Serral the goat for about 5 years lol. So I don't think he was going to reach a different conclusion regardless of evidence or argumentation
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United States1940 Posts
On March 22 2024 03:59 Moonerz wrote:
Fwiw pig has been calling Serral the goat for about 5 years lol. So I don't think he was going to reach a different conclusion regardless of evidence or argumentation
I'm glad he's happy with it!
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On March 22 2024 03:37 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 03:32 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:53 Poopi wrote:On March 22 2024 01:35 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:22 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 22 2024 01:06 Moonerz wrote:On March 21 2024 23:38 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 21 2024 23:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
[quote]
"He was best Korean Terran for the first half of 2014, but never had a shot at winning due to balance."
Are we considering balance now for GOATs? Or is this just an opinion separate from the articles' ranking criteria.
"The definition of dominant was just different back then. Maru has a claim for best player of the period and he won a KIL once in every eight seasons he played."
Just to entertain this point a bit, if you assume that that's what dominance looks like, then you can define 2 KIL wins during HotS to be dominant as you said. But that feels a bit backwards to me to define that as dominant, if someone was only able to win a couple tournaments out of many. Isn't dominant supposed to be... much more impressive than that? A clear cut above the other players? Rain also won 2 KIL during HotS. Meanwhile Taeja is winning a bunch of international weekenders and making lots of money that way. Life as well, but he also won 2 GSL and a WC (revoked). sOs won 3 WCs. All of these players' accomplishments during HotS were great. I'm not sure if I would call Maru "dominant". He is tied for the most KIL wins during HotS, sure, but not exactly above his peers in that regard.
Dominance was not the best word choice (something in the vein of superiority or a catch all like "tier one player" fits better). It's fair to say, however, that he outperformed pretty much everyone outside of a group of ten or so player with which he was relatively even. Where he fell within that group is harder to figure out than the GOAT rankings, if I'm being honest. And, yes, balance actually was ridiculous in 2014. There are a large number of people who discredit Serral's achievements because Zerg was good (one of the stupidest things I've ever heard). Maru never won Code S in 2014, but you can't look at the top 16 of Season 1 and 2 in good faith and say there's nothing ridiculous going on as far as Terran representation. Without looking it up, this has to be the heavy rain map pool right? God that was a nightmare as a Terran it felt like every map was screaming please blink into my main. Edit: yup that's the map pool. Lol They called it PvProleague for a reason. We're calling the GSL from 2018 to nowadays GomTvT for a reason. Outside of Maru, terrans were winning basically peanuts money in 2018-2019. Terran was doing pretty bad already in 2018, especially in macro game TvP (and TvZ). There was no hope for Terran to win tournaments if Maru didn’t perform I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race). Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers? The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won. I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page. I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won. Thanks, I am curious why you decided to remove the top3 and not just top1. Also curious to see the same graphs with top 1, top 2 and top 3 (and so on if you like but I think that will be good enough) removed alongside of the name of the players removed.
I removed the top 3 because of Protoss. There isn't a clear Protoss GOAT, even Zest isn't quite as dominant for Protoss as Serral or Maru are for Zerg and Terran in terms of tournaments won.
You can clearly notice that if you look at the global earnings with Zest being only slightly above sOs, Stats and Neeb and behind an army of Terran and Zerg players. If I only removed the top 1 of each race, it would have favored Protoss too much.
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On March 22 2024 03:59 Moonerz wrote:
Fwiw pig has been calling Serral the goat for about 5 years lol. So I don't think he was going to reach a different conclusion regardless of evidence or argumentation
PiG has also looked down on Maru for the last 4 years as well. On one hand he still acknowledge Maru as the best lategame Terran in the world (noted: lategame, not best overall). On the other hand he has repeatedly not giving Maru a chance to win at offline even tournament in his prediction. Instead gave his vote to Clem, Cure, Gumiho or even Byun, while simply saying "Maru never win outside of KR". But it never happen for him to admit that its Maru who has been the best Terran in offline international tournament in the past 4 years.
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On March 22 2024 04:01 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 03:37 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 03:32 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:53 Poopi wrote:On March 22 2024 01:35 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:22 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 22 2024 01:06 Moonerz wrote:On March 21 2024 23:38 Mizenhauer wrote:[quote] Dominance was not the best word choice (something in the vein of superiority or a catch all like "tier one player" fits better). It's fair to say, however, that he outperformed pretty much everyone outside of a group of ten or so player with which he was relatively even. Where he fell within that group is harder to figure out than the GOAT rankings, if I'm being honest. And, yes, balance actually was ridiculous in 2014. There are a large number of people who discredit Serral's achievements because Zerg was good (one of the stupidest things I've ever heard). Maru never won Code S in 2014, but you can't look at the top 16 of Season 1 and 2 in good faith and say there's nothing ridiculous going on as far as Terran representation. Without looking it up, this has to be the heavy rain map pool right? God that was a nightmare as a Terran it felt like every map was screaming please blink into my main. Edit: yup that's the map pool. Lol They called it PvProleague for a reason. We're calling the GSL from 2018 to nowadays GomTvT for a reason. Outside of Maru, terrans were winning basically peanuts money in 2018-2019. Terran was doing pretty bad already in 2018, especially in macro game TvP (and TvZ). There was no hope for Terran to win tournaments if Maru didn’t perform I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race). Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers? The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won. I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page. I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won. Thanks, I am curious why you decided to remove the top3 and not just top1. Also curious to see the same graphs with top 1, top 2 and top 3 (and so on if you like but I think that will be good enough) removed alongside of the name of the players removed. I removed the top 3 because of Protoss. There isn't a clear Protoss GOAT, even Zest isn't quite as dominant for Protoss as Serral or Maru are for Zerg and Terran in terms of tournaments won. You can clearly notice that if you look at the global earnings with Zest being only slightly above sOs, Stats and Neeb and behind an army of Terran and Zerg players. If I only removed the top 1 of each race, it would have favored Protoss too much.
But thats the point, Zest being the GOAT for Protoss doesnt mean he was that much of a clear-cut choice, because his contribution wasnt "over-shadowing" the rest of the race. But I have heard nothing but about how Serral clearly hold the Zerg by himself and remove him ALONE would make the whole race drop like fly. So thats more of a reason to remove the top1 and 2 and 3 things.
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On March 22 2024 04:24 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 04:01 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:37 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 03:32 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:53 Poopi wrote:On March 22 2024 01:35 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:22 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 22 2024 01:06 Moonerz wrote:
[quote]
Without looking it up, this has to be the heavy rain map pool right? God that was a nightmare as a Terran it felt like every map was screaming please blink into my main.
Edit: yup that's the map pool. Lol They called it PvProleague for a reason. We're calling the GSL from 2018 to nowadays GomTvT for a reason. Outside of Maru, terrans were winning basically peanuts money in 2018-2019. Terran was doing pretty bad already in 2018, especially in macro game TvP (and TvZ). There was no hope for Terran to win tournaments if Maru didn’t perform I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race). Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers? The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won. I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page. I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won. Thanks, I am curious why you decided to remove the top3 and not just top1. Also curious to see the same graphs with top 1, top 2 and top 3 (and so on if you like but I think that will be good enough) removed alongside of the name of the players removed. I removed the top 3 because of Protoss. There isn't a clear Protoss GOAT, even Zest isn't quite as dominant for Protoss as Serral or Maru are for Zerg and Terran in terms of tournaments won. You can clearly notice that if you look at the global earnings with Zest being only slightly above sOs, Stats and Neeb and behind an army of Terran and Zerg players. If I only removed the top 1 of each race, it would have favored Protoss too much. But thats the point, Zest being the GOAT for Protoss doesnt mean he was that much of a clear-cut choice, because his contribution wasnt "over-shadowing" the rest of the race. But I have heard nothing but about how Serral clearly hold the Zerg by himself and remove him ALONE would make the whole race drop like fly. So thats more of a reason to remove the top1 and 2 and 3 things.
I'll try doing the top 1 and 2 then, just wait an hour or two.
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On March 22 2024 04:24 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 04:01 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:37 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 03:32 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:53 Poopi wrote:On March 22 2024 01:35 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:22 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 22 2024 01:06 Moonerz wrote:
[quote]
Without looking it up, this has to be the heavy rain map pool right? God that was a nightmare as a Terran it felt like every map was screaming please blink into my main.
Edit: yup that's the map pool. Lol They called it PvProleague for a reason. We're calling the GSL from 2018 to nowadays GomTvT for a reason. Outside of Maru, terrans were winning basically peanuts money in 2018-2019. Terran was doing pretty bad already in 2018, especially in macro game TvP (and TvZ). There was no hope for Terran to win tournaments if Maru didn’t perform I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race). Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers? The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won. I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page. I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won. Thanks, I am curious why you decided to remove the top3 and not just top1. Also curious to see the same graphs with top 1, top 2 and top 3 (and so on if you like but I think that will be good enough) removed alongside of the name of the players removed. I removed the top 3 because of Protoss. There isn't a clear Protoss GOAT, even Zest isn't quite as dominant for Protoss as Serral or Maru are for Zerg and Terran in terms of tournaments won. You can clearly notice that if you look at the global earnings with Zest being only slightly above sOs, Stats and Neeb and behind an army of Terran and Zerg players. If I only removed the top 1 of each race, it would have favored Protoss too much. But thats the point, Zest being the GOAT for Protoss doesnt mean he was that much of a clear-cut choice, because his contribution wasnt "over-shadowing" the rest of the race. But I have heard nothing but about how Serral clearly hold the Zerg by himself and remove him ALONE would make the whole race drop like fly. So thats more of a reason to remove the top1 and 2 and 3 things.
Here's the graph without the top 1 best performers (Serral/Maru/Zest)
We can see that even without Maru Terran outperforms Protoss at 100% strenght while Zerg without Serral goes from fragile top 2 to clear top 1 with him. His impact is considerable.
I noticed it was already the top 2 and not the top 3 I had done on the previous graph (kind of forgot since it was a long time ago I assumed I did top 3) so I'm making without the top 3 now.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/GzsQODL.png)
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On March 22 2024 05:00 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 04:24 tigera6 wrote:On March 22 2024 04:01 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:37 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 03:32 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:53 Poopi wrote:On March 22 2024 01:35 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:22 Mizenhauer wrote:
[quote]
They called it PvProleague for a reason.
We're calling the GSL from 2018 to nowadays GomTvT for a reason. Outside of Maru, terrans were winning basically peanuts money in 2018-2019. Terran was doing pretty bad already in 2018, especially in macro game TvP (and TvZ). There was no hope for Terran to win tournaments if Maru didn’t perform I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race). Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers? The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won. I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page. I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won. Thanks, I am curious why you decided to remove the top3 and not just top1. Also curious to see the same graphs with top 1, top 2 and top 3 (and so on if you like but I think that will be good enough) removed alongside of the name of the players removed. I removed the top 3 because of Protoss. There isn't a clear Protoss GOAT, even Zest isn't quite as dominant for Protoss as Serral or Maru are for Zerg and Terran in terms of tournaments won. You can clearly notice that if you look at the global earnings with Zest being only slightly above sOs, Stats and Neeb and behind an army of Terran and Zerg players. If I only removed the top 1 of each race, it would have favored Protoss too much. But thats the point, Zest being the GOAT for Protoss doesnt mean he was that much of a clear-cut choice, because his contribution wasnt "over-shadowing" the rest of the race. But I have heard nothing but about how Serral clearly hold the Zerg by himself and remove him ALONE would make the whole race drop like fly. So thats more of a reason to remove the top1 and 2 and 3 things. Here's the graph without the top 1 best performers (Serral/Maru/Zest) We can see that even without Maru Terran outperforms Protoss at 100% strenght while Zerg without Serral goes from fragile top 2 to clear top 1 with him. His impact is considerable. I noticed it was already the top 2 and not the top 3 I had done on the previous graph (kind of forgot since it was a long time ago I assumed I did top 3) so I'm making without the top 3 now.
So when you remove the top1/2/3 tournament wins of each race, what are you measuring? non top1/2/3 tournament wings of each race? I am a bit puzzled by the barplot as well. But when focusing on the line plot some of the data points do not make sense. For example in 2011 without maru (red dot) terran won ~25 tourneys, with maru however terran (pinky dot) won less than 20. That makes no sense at all. I am getting this wrong?
This is why I think labeling the y axis will make sense (also given that you put a barplot and a line plot you need two y axes).
Alternatively you could share the raw data. As it is is hard to judge and draw any conclusions.
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I'm not surprised but am a little disappointed by how much of a debate and the type of debate there is.
Do the Serral/Maru stans in this thread refuse to acknowledge that their player might not be the GOAT under certain criteria? That's a bit of insanity. Balance whining, hypotheticals, stat cherry picking. Ugh. I guess I deserve it for opening the thread. 
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On March 22 2024 05:00 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 04:24 tigera6 wrote:On March 22 2024 04:01 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:37 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 03:32 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:53 Poopi wrote:On March 22 2024 01:35 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:22 Mizenhauer wrote:
[quote]
They called it PvProleague for a reason.
We're calling the GSL from 2018 to nowadays GomTvT for a reason. Outside of Maru, terrans were winning basically peanuts money in 2018-2019. Terran was doing pretty bad already in 2018, especially in macro game TvP (and TvZ). There was no hope for Terran to win tournaments if Maru didn’t perform I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race). Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers? The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won. I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page. I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won. Thanks, I am curious why you decided to remove the top3 and not just top1. Also curious to see the same graphs with top 1, top 2 and top 3 (and so on if you like but I think that will be good enough) removed alongside of the name of the players removed. I removed the top 3 because of Protoss. There isn't a clear Protoss GOAT, even Zest isn't quite as dominant for Protoss as Serral or Maru are for Zerg and Terran in terms of tournaments won. You can clearly notice that if you look at the global earnings with Zest being only slightly above sOs, Stats and Neeb and behind an army of Terran and Zerg players. If I only removed the top 1 of each race, it would have favored Protoss too much. But thats the point, Zest being the GOAT for Protoss doesnt mean he was that much of a clear-cut choice, because his contribution wasnt "over-shadowing" the rest of the race. But I have heard nothing but about how Serral clearly hold the Zerg by himself and remove him ALONE would make the whole race drop like fly. So thats more of a reason to remove the top1 and 2 and 3 things. Here's the graph without the top 1 best performers (Serral/Maru/Zest) We can see that even without Maru Terran outperforms Protoss at 100% strenght while Zerg without Serral goes from fragile top 2 to clear top 1 with him. His impact is considerable. I noticed it was already the top 2 and not the top 3 I had done on the previous graph (kind of forgot since it was a long time ago I assumed I did top 3) so I'm making without the top 3 now.
I'm getting super tripped up by your analysis because around a month someone posted on reddit their own statistical analysis (premier tournaments) and found maru was a bigger outlier than serral, whereas you seem to imply the opposite. Can you post the raw data? Alternatively, would you want me to link the article and you can explain why they're wrong and you're right?
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And here's without the top 3 performers of each race.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/dXUoRsR.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Od3Nqfy.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/s0xdqQ9.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/z3wNZ5v.png)
