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On March 22 2024 05:31 kaos00 wrote:
I'm not surprised but am a little disappointed by how much of a debate and the type of debate there is. This is exactly my feeling.
I don't understand how people refuse to realise their opinion is just their opinion, and the author has a right to have his own. It's absolutely ok to disagree with it but if you say "this is BS" - know that the only BS here is you because you cannot accept that someone might have a different opinion or different criteria, and this is just pathetic.
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On March 22 2024 05:31 kaos00 wrote:I'm not surprised but am a little disappointed by how much of a debate and the type of debate there is. Do the Serral/Maru stans in this thread refuse to acknowledge that their player might not be the GOAT under certain criteria? That's a bit of insanity. Balance whining, hypotheticals, stat cherry picking. Ugh. I guess I deserve it for opening the thread. 
We must be analyzing the thread wrong because for the most part, maru "stans" both here and reddit seem to consistently acknowledge it's subjective based on the criteria/methodology you choose. Heck let's include artosis' take of rogue being the goat and you get the same result. By and large what I've noticed is serral fans refusing to acknowledge anyone but serral has a shot at being the goat
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On March 22 2024 05:33 lokol4890 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 05:00 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 04:24 tigera6 wrote:On March 22 2024 04:01 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:37 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 03:32 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:53 Poopi wrote:On March 22 2024 01:35 imData wrote:
[quote]
We're calling the GSL from 2018 to nowadays GomTvT for a reason. Outside of Maru, terrans were winning basically peanuts money in 2018-2019. Terran was doing pretty bad already in 2018, especially in macro game TvP (and TvZ). There was no hope for Terran to win tournaments if Maru didn’t perform I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race). Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers? The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won. I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page. I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won. Thanks, I am curious why you decided to remove the top3 and not just top1. Also curious to see the same graphs with top 1, top 2 and top 3 (and so on if you like but I think that will be good enough) removed alongside of the name of the players removed. I removed the top 3 because of Protoss. There isn't a clear Protoss GOAT, even Zest isn't quite as dominant for Protoss as Serral or Maru are for Zerg and Terran in terms of tournaments won. You can clearly notice that if you look at the global earnings with Zest being only slightly above sOs, Stats and Neeb and behind an army of Terran and Zerg players. If I only removed the top 1 of each race, it would have favored Protoss too much. But thats the point, Zest being the GOAT for Protoss doesnt mean he was that much of a clear-cut choice, because his contribution wasnt "over-shadowing" the rest of the race. But I have heard nothing but about how Serral clearly hold the Zerg by himself and remove him ALONE would make the whole race drop like fly. So thats more of a reason to remove the top1 and 2 and 3 things. Here's the graph without the top 1 best performers (Serral/Maru/Zest) We can see that even without Maru Terran outperforms Protoss at 100% strenght while Zerg without Serral goes from fragile top 2 to clear top 1 with him. His impact is considerable. I noticed it was already the top 2 and not the top 3 I had done on the previous graph (kind of forgot since it was a long time ago I assumed I did top 3) so I'm making without the top 3 now. I'm getting super tripped up by your analysis because around a month someone posted on reddit their own statistical analysis (premier tournaments) and found maru was a bigger outlier than serral, whereas you seem to imply the opposite. Can you post the raw data? Alternatively, would you want me to link the article and you can explain why they're wrong and you're right?
I'm just taking the datas from Liquipedia then add them by myself on Canva.
Here are the raws: Raws - canva.com
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On March 22 2024 05:38 lokol4890 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 05:31 kaos00 wrote:I'm not surprised but am a little disappointed by how much of a debate and the type of debate there is. Do the Serral/Maru stans in this thread refuse to acknowledge that their player might not be the GOAT under certain criteria? That's a bit of insanity. Balance whining, hypotheticals, stat cherry picking. Ugh. I guess I deserve it for opening the thread. We must be analyzing the thread wrong because for the most part, maru "stans" both here and reddit seem to consistently acknowledge it's subjective based on the criteria/methodology you choose. Heck let's include artosis' take of rogue being the goat and you get the same result. By and large what I've noticed is serral fans refusing to acknowledge anyone but serral has a shot at being the goat
Imo it's because if you're new to scene it probably would be wild to you if someone else was considered the goat. All you've seen in Serral be the best or at worst top 3 player for most of that span. That's where I think a lot of the vitriol comes from on that side.
Anyone who thinks Maru is the goat probably has changed their opinion at least once or twice over the course of sc2 and maybe is less indignant about other opinions. But then there are others who just won't move off the opinion that non kr sc is trash.
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On March 22 2024 05:51 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 05:33 lokol4890 wrote:On March 22 2024 05:00 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 04:24 tigera6 wrote:On March 22 2024 04:01 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:37 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 03:32 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 01:53 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
Outside of Maru, terrans were winning basically peanuts money in 2018-2019. Terran was doing pretty bad already in 2018, especially in macro game TvP (and TvZ). There was no hope for Terran to win tournaments if Maru didn’t perform I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race). Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers? The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won. I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page. I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won. Thanks, I am curious why you decided to remove the top3 and not just top1. Also curious to see the same graphs with top 1, top 2 and top 3 (and so on if you like but I think that will be good enough) removed alongside of the name of the players removed. I removed the top 3 because of Protoss. There isn't a clear Protoss GOAT, even Zest isn't quite as dominant for Protoss as Serral or Maru are for Zerg and Terran in terms of tournaments won. You can clearly notice that if you look at the global earnings with Zest being only slightly above sOs, Stats and Neeb and behind an army of Terran and Zerg players. If I only removed the top 1 of each race, it would have favored Protoss too much. But thats the point, Zest being the GOAT for Protoss doesnt mean he was that much of a clear-cut choice, because his contribution wasnt "over-shadowing" the rest of the race. But I have heard nothing but about how Serral clearly hold the Zerg by himself and remove him ALONE would make the whole race drop like fly. So thats more of a reason to remove the top1 and 2 and 3 things. Here's the graph without the top 1 best performers (Serral/Maru/Zest) We can see that even without Maru Terran outperforms Protoss at 100% strenght while Zerg without Serral goes from fragile top 2 to clear top 1 with him. His impact is considerable. I noticed it was already the top 2 and not the top 3 I had done on the previous graph (kind of forgot since it was a long time ago I assumed I did top 3) so I'm making without the top 3 now. I'm getting super tripped up by your analysis because around a month someone posted on reddit their own statistical analysis (premier tournaments) and found maru was a bigger outlier than serral, whereas you seem to imply the opposite. Can you post the raw data? Alternatively, would you want me to link the article and you can explain why they're wrong and you're right? I'm just taking the datas from Liquipedia then add them by myself on Canva. Here are the raws: Raws - canva.com
looking at this numbers is obvious you are not just using premiers as you stated before, you are also using ESL weekly tourneys I guess?
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On March 22 2024 05:53 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 05:38 lokol4890 wrote:On March 22 2024 05:31 kaos00 wrote:I'm not surprised but am a little disappointed by how much of a debate and the type of debate there is. Do the Serral/Maru stans in this thread refuse to acknowledge that their player might not be the GOAT under certain criteria? That's a bit of insanity. Balance whining, hypotheticals, stat cherry picking. Ugh. I guess I deserve it for opening the thread. We must be analyzing the thread wrong because for the most part, maru "stans" both here and reddit seem to consistently acknowledge it's subjective based on the criteria/methodology you choose. Heck let's include artosis' take of rogue being the goat and you get the same result. By and large what I've noticed is serral fans refusing to acknowledge anyone but serral has a shot at being the goat Imo it's because if you're new to scene it probably would be wild to you if someone else was considered the goat. All you've seen in Serral be the best or at worst top 3 player for most of that span. That's where I think a lot of the vitriol comes from on that side. Anyone who thinks Maru is the goat probably has changed their opinion at least once or twice over the course of sc2 and maybe is less indignant about other opinions. But then there are others who just won't move off the opinion that non kr sc is trash.
I think I can say I'm not far from the truth if I assume most of us here are long runners of SC2.
Personally I've started following the scene in 2011 and never have I considered Maru as the GOAT. Sure he's a great player but he's never been above top 3. My GOAT from WoL up to 2017 was Mvp, then from 2017 to 2022 it was Rogue then from 2022 I started considering Serral as the GOAT.
Before 2018 Maru wasn't even top 5 in my book, then in 2018 he came in top 3 behind Inno that he surpassed in 2020 but by that time Serral was already ahead of him as the top 2, then since 2022 he's battling with Rogue over that 2nd place, Serral being the one and only GOAT.
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On March 22 2024 05:54 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 05:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 05:33 lokol4890 wrote:On March 22 2024 05:00 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 04:24 tigera6 wrote:On March 22 2024 04:01 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:37 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 03:32 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:[quote] I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race). Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers? The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won. I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page. I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won. Thanks, I am curious why you decided to remove the top3 and not just top1. Also curious to see the same graphs with top 1, top 2 and top 3 (and so on if you like but I think that will be good enough) removed alongside of the name of the players removed. I removed the top 3 because of Protoss. There isn't a clear Protoss GOAT, even Zest isn't quite as dominant for Protoss as Serral or Maru are for Zerg and Terran in terms of tournaments won. You can clearly notice that if you look at the global earnings with Zest being only slightly above sOs, Stats and Neeb and behind an army of Terran and Zerg players. If I only removed the top 1 of each race, it would have favored Protoss too much. But thats the point, Zest being the GOAT for Protoss doesnt mean he was that much of a clear-cut choice, because his contribution wasnt "over-shadowing" the rest of the race. But I have heard nothing but about how Serral clearly hold the Zerg by himself and remove him ALONE would make the whole race drop like fly. So thats more of a reason to remove the top1 and 2 and 3 things. Here's the graph without the top 1 best performers (Serral/Maru/Zest) We can see that even without Maru Terran outperforms Protoss at 100% strenght while Zerg without Serral goes from fragile top 2 to clear top 1 with him. His impact is considerable. I noticed it was already the top 2 and not the top 3 I had done on the previous graph (kind of forgot since it was a long time ago I assumed I did top 3) so I'm making without the top 3 now. I'm getting super tripped up by your analysis because around a month someone posted on reddit their own statistical analysis (premier tournaments) and found maru was a bigger outlier than serral, whereas you seem to imply the opposite. Can you post the raw data? Alternatively, would you want me to link the article and you can explain why they're wrong and you're right? I'm just taking the datas from Liquipedia then add them by myself on Canva. Here are the raws: Raws - canva.com looking at this numbers is obvious you are not just using premiers as you stated before, you are also using ESL weekly tourneys I guess?
Nope I'm only using premiers, if I used weeklies and other smaller tournaments there would be thousands of wins for each race (5901 for P, 5226 for T, and 6555 for Z).
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when will "#0: Dark- Greatest Players of All Time" be released?
in a week or two? i'm curious. Dark is one of the most versatile players and he's had GSL/international success and he's been playing for a long time.
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On March 22 2024 07:37 jack_less wrote:
when will "#0: Dark- Greatest Players of All Time" be released?
in a week or two? i'm curious. Dark is one of the most versatile players and he's had GSL/international success and he's been playing for a long time.
#0 should be left to the original alfa-testers, just use decimal values: maybe Dark #4.5 or Dark #5.2, or then expand to negative integer numbers. Whole new set of neglected all time greats would be happy for that.
You can also use two different but equal notations for each integers, for example Serral #0.9999... and Maru #1, Maru #1.999... and Serral #2 and so on. If there are still all time greats left outside from these sets of numbers, just use transcendental decimal numbers and expand to imaginary numbers if even that doesn't help to fit everyone to the list.
If Rogue is ln or e, maybe Dark could be Pi or 2Pi.
But, there are lot of numbers between 0 and 1, infinitely many, so bigger difficulties in reassignments should not appear. 
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On March 22 2024 05:54 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 05:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 05:33 lokol4890 wrote:On March 22 2024 05:00 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 04:24 tigera6 wrote:On March 22 2024 04:01 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:37 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 03:32 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 02:51 imData wrote:[quote] I beg to differ, Terran were winning almost as much as Protoss during those days, even without Maru. I actually did some stats a little while ago to look at the race distribution in Premier Tournaments victories since the beginning of SC2. I did it with every Premier Tournaments then I removed the top 3 best performers for each race to see which race was actually being "saved" by a small hand of players. And guess what, the results were quite the same. Maru didn't have as much as an impact as Serral had, and by far. Serral single handedly took Zerg to the greatest highs. (First pic is including every premier tournaments, second one is without the top 3 performers of each race). Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers? The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won. I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page. I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won. Thanks, I am curious why you decided to remove the top3 and not just top1. Also curious to see the same graphs with top 1, top 2 and top 3 (and so on if you like but I think that will be good enough) removed alongside of the name of the players removed. I removed the top 3 because of Protoss. There isn't a clear Protoss GOAT, even Zest isn't quite as dominant for Protoss as Serral or Maru are for Zerg and Terran in terms of tournaments won. You can clearly notice that if you look at the global earnings with Zest being only slightly above sOs, Stats and Neeb and behind an army of Terran and Zerg players. If I only removed the top 1 of each race, it would have favored Protoss too much. But thats the point, Zest being the GOAT for Protoss doesnt mean he was that much of a clear-cut choice, because his contribution wasnt "over-shadowing" the rest of the race. But I have heard nothing but about how Serral clearly hold the Zerg by himself and remove him ALONE would make the whole race drop like fly. So thats more of a reason to remove the top1 and 2 and 3 things. Here's the graph without the top 1 best performers (Serral/Maru/Zest) We can see that even without Maru Terran outperforms Protoss at 100% strenght while Zerg without Serral goes from fragile top 2 to clear top 1 with him. His impact is considerable. I noticed it was already the top 2 and not the top 3 I had done on the previous graph (kind of forgot since it was a long time ago I assumed I did top 3) so I'm making without the top 3 now. I'm getting super tripped up by your analysis because around a month someone posted on reddit their own statistical analysis (premier tournaments) and found maru was a bigger outlier than serral, whereas you seem to imply the opposite. Can you post the raw data? Alternatively, would you want me to link the article and you can explain why they're wrong and you're right? I'm just taking the datas from Liquipedia then add them by myself on Canva. Here are the raws: Raws - canva.com looking at this numbers is obvious you are not just using premiers as you stated before, you are also using ESL weekly tourneys I guess?
It was slightly confusing to me at first too, until you realize the line graph is totalling all tournaments cumulatively.
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On March 21 2024 23:41 Charoisaur wrote:
That's actually a fact but it doesn't work in favor of this era. The skill gap is higher because lots of top competitors had to leave and thus there are fewer championship contenders left. Obviously it's easier to be dominant in a scene with 30 full time players and 5 championship contenders than in a scene with 150 full time players and 12+ championship contenders
Well this can be debatable. Of course it is generally true, that its easier to dominate with lesser field of players. But it is still kinda impossible to say, that Serral wouldnt have dominated as well or nearly as well as he does today. There would be of course more contestants, but in reality how many of them could challenge him for trophies ? With the performance he showed at this IEM or some of the other tournaments he has absolutely dominated, im not sure there would be many more than Maru/Inno/Life/Reynor and maybe Rogue that could challenge him if they would play their absolute best. And if im honest, propably its only Maru or Life maybe, but that could be just my bias.
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On March 22 2024 05:00 imData wrote:Here's the graph without the top 1 best performers (Serral/Maru/Zest)
1. To support your narrative, removing the top performer in each race is the right methodology, since you're trying to compare Maru/Serral's respective impact on the game. For Protoss you should just use an objective measure of which Protoss won the most over the duration of your timeline.
2. Looking at the chart, I'm curious which ~7 premier events (I'm eyeballing it) non-Maru Terran players won in '22? I only remember 2 DHs by Clem?
3. Cumulatively through '23, Terran overall vs. without Maru has only a difference of ~6 premier wins? Also why did the gap between all Terran and Terran-without-Maru lines narrow from '21 to '22 (this shouldn't happen since your lines are cumulative and Maru cannot "unwin"). These don't seem correct?
4. Assuming the analysis *is* done correctly, readers can draw the conclusion that Serral had a huge impact on Zerg. Readers can also see that post 2018, Zergs' win record, even without Serral, had a big uptick and significantly outperformed other races i.e. the gaps in the 3 lines with top 1 removed clearly narrowed. This supports my argument, which is Zerg has been OP since '18 and Serral is the best at abusing that strength.
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On March 22 2024 12:40 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 05:00 imData wrote:Here's the graph without the top 1 best performers (Serral/Maru/Zest) 1. To support your narrative, removing the top performer in each race is the right methodology, since you're trying to compare Maru/Serral's respective impact on the game. For Protoss you should just use an objective measure of which Protoss won the most over the duration of your timeline. 2. Looking at the chart, I'm curious which ~7 premier events (I'm eyeballing it) non-Maru Terran players won in '22? I only remember 2 DHs by Clem? 3. Cumulatively through '23, Terran overall vs. without Maru has only a difference of ~6 premier wins? Also why did the gap between all Terran and Terran-without-Maru lines narrow from '21 to '22 (this shouldn't happen since your lines are cumulative and Maru cannot "unwin"). These don't seem correct? 4. Assuming the analysis *is* done correctly, readers can draw the conclusion that Serral had a huge impact on Zerg. Readers can also see that post 2018, Zergs' win record, even without Serral, had a big uptick and significantly outperformed other races i.e. the gaps in the 3 lines with top 1 removed clearly narrowed. This supports my argument, which is Zerg has been OP since '18 and Serral is the best at abusing that strength.
I'm not sure the data was collected or parsed correctly, since the "zerg" line diverges from the "w/o Serral" line back in 2014, while Serral didn't win his first premier until 2018.
Also, the "Terran" and "w/o Maru" gap narrows until they almost touch at some point, which should never happen in a cumulative graph. The distance between "X race" and "X race w/o their best player" can only grow or remain constant, so something funky is going on here.
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Yes the whole discussion about this data is pointless. The data is obviously bad and even if it were correct what is the disagreement even? Both players are huge outliers for their race. If one is more than the other, it's not that much and figuring out who comes out on top of this argument is not going to change anybody's mind.
If anyone's mind is ever going to be changed, the discussion should be about the criteria. It's about longevity (though mainly across expansions and formats since at this point, Serral has general longevity as well) and how you weight GSL and top 4 finishes.
My belief about this whole list is either Serral is too high (if we're really biasing for GSL/pro-league) and/or Dark is just an enormous snub - though he's a snub on any criteria possible except if you give a huge penalty for inconsistency.
Or Serral should be #1 which made sense to me when the list was counting down. MVP passing INnoVation really made me think Serral would top this list. MVP played in GomTvT era, didn't have longevity, and didn't play vs the other best players. Looking forward to the justification for snubbing Dark though. I don't think I'll ever be convinced but I am interested in the data and weird criteria Miz has in store.
edit:
I will add that if the criteria is a mix of penalizing inconsistency without rewarding consistency and a moderate bias for GSL and proleague, it makes almost every ranking make more sense. Still Dark is snubbed but that would make him 6-10 I guess.
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On March 22 2024 12:18 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2024 23:41 Charoisaur wrote:
That's actually a fact but it doesn't work in favor of this era. The skill gap is higher because lots of top competitors had to leave and thus there are fewer championship contenders left. Obviously it's easier to be dominant in a scene with 30 full time players and 5 championship contenders than in a scene with 150 full time players and 12+ championship contenders Well this can be debatable. Of course it is generally true, that its easier to dominate with lesser field of players. But it is still kinda impossible to say, that Serral wouldnt have dominated as well or nearly as well as he does today. There would be of course more contestants, but in reality how many of them could challenge him for trophies ? With the performance he showed at this IEM or some of the other tournaments he has absolutely dominated, im not sure there would be many more than Maru/Inno/Life/Reynor and maybe Rogue that could challenge him if they would play their absolute best. And if im honest, propably its only Maru or Life maybe, but that could be just my bias.
If Maru/Inno/Life could challenge him then peak PartinG, Rain, Zest, herO, Classic, soO, ByuL, Flash, sOs, Dear would be able too as they were almost at the skill level of them (in some cases you can cross the almost)
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On March 22 2024 09:42 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2024 05:54 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 05:51 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 05:33 lokol4890 wrote:On March 22 2024 05:00 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 04:24 tigera6 wrote:On March 22 2024 04:01 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:37 Argonauta wrote:On March 22 2024 03:32 imData wrote:On March 22 2024 03:03 Argonauta wrote:
[quote]
Interesting. What is the y axis in this plot? Can you share the raw data? How did you decide what are the 3 best performers?
The y axis is just the number of premier tournaments won. I took all the datas on Liquipedia statistics page. I decided the 3 best performers in terms of most premier tournaments won. Thanks, I am curious why you decided to remove the top3 and not just top1. Also curious to see the same graphs with top 1, top 2 and top 3 (and so on if you like but I think that will be good enough) removed alongside of the name of the players removed. I removed the top 3 because of Protoss. There isn't a clear Protoss GOAT, even Zest isn't quite as dominant for Protoss as Serral or Maru are for Zerg and Terran in terms of tournaments won. You can clearly notice that if you look at the global earnings with Zest being only slightly above sOs, Stats and Neeb and behind an army of Terran and Zerg players. If I only removed the top 1 of each race, it would have favored Protoss too much. But thats the point, Zest being the GOAT for Protoss doesnt mean he was that much of a clear-cut choice, because his contribution wasnt "over-shadowing" the rest of the race. But I have heard nothing but about how Serral clearly hold the Zerg by himself and remove him ALONE would make the whole race drop like fly. So thats more of a reason to remove the top1 and 2 and 3 things. Here's the graph without the top 1 best performers (Serral/Maru/Zest) We can see that even without Maru Terran outperforms Protoss at 100% strenght while Zerg without Serral goes from fragile top 2 to clear top 1 with him. His impact is considerable. I noticed it was already the top 2 and not the top 3 I had done on the previous graph (kind of forgot since it was a long time ago I assumed I did top 3) so I'm making without the top 3 now. I'm getting super tripped up by your analysis because around a month someone posted on reddit their own statistical analysis (premier tournaments) and found maru was a bigger outlier than serral, whereas you seem to imply the opposite. Can you post the raw data? Alternatively, would you want me to link the article and you can explain why they're wrong and you're right? I'm just taking the datas from Liquipedia then add them by myself on Canva. Here are the raws: Raws - canva.com looking at this numbers is obvious you are not just using premiers as you stated before, you are also using ESL weekly tourneys I guess? It was slightly confusing to me at first too, until you realize the line graph is totalling all tournaments cumulatively.
As pointed out, if cumulative, then it cannot be any decreases in Y as X increases and there are. Weird graphs and no raw data hard to draw any conclusions.
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Arguments are jumping left and right, going from perceived skill, results, level of domination, tournament results, balance & of course a great deal of favoritism.
The main arguments appear to be revolving around Serral not playing in the most competitive environment & lacking GSL titles.
However, excluding Serral's lack of GSL participation, wherever he has been competing he's been the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far. He also played Maru plenty of times with an 80% win rate & is sporting a 70%+ win rate vs the best players in GSL. Won tournaments with GSL champion participation. Wherever Serral competes, he's as dominant as Flash in BW. In his incredible 20-1 Katowice run he's shown to be the best player out there, at the very least at this moment. Being the current best player of course is not equivalent to carrying the GOAT crown.
There are several points that could be made to justify Serral's lack of presence in GSL & the fact that Maru potentially wouldn't have been able to achieve similar results if Serral did participate in GSL. In the end this however is all hypothetically speaking and will never happen.
So the question is; what are the requirements that would crown Serral as the (majorly) undisputed GOAT? Or is this an impossible feat. without GSL participation?
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United States1798 Posts
On March 23 2024 00:28 Smorrie wrote:
Arguments are jumping left and right, going from perceived skill, results, level of domination, tournament results, balance & of course a great deal of favoritism.
The main arguments appear to be revolving around Serral not playing in the most competitive environment & lacking GSL titles.
However, excluding Serral's lack of GSL participation, wherever he has been competing he's been the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far. He also played Maru plenty of times with an 80% win rate & is sporting a 70%+ win rate vs the best players in GSL. Won tournaments with GSL champion participation. Wherever Serral competes, he's as dominant as Flash in BW. In his incredible 20-1 Katowice run he's shown to be the best player out there, at the very least at this moment. Being the current best player of course is not equivalent to carrying the GOAT crown.
There are several points that could be made to justify Serral's lack of presence in GSL & the fact that Maru potentially wouldn't have been able to achieve similar results if Serral did participate in GSL. In the end this however is all hypothetically speaking and will never happen.
So the question is; what are the requirements that would crown Serral as the (majorly) undisputed GOAT? Or is this an impossible feat. without GSL participation?
It's pretty clear that everyone who is reasonable is of the opinion that not playing in Code S in no way tarnishes Serral's record. He has played Koreans in a boat load of Global Events and has performed favorably against them. I personally don't care if Serral never plays in Code S. If he keeps this level going for another few years I think he's the undisputed GOAT. For now, however, Maru has been hyper competitive for a decade. He won OSL in 2013 and Code S in 2023. He was one of the best players in Proleague and WTL. That's the one thing Serral can't claim and it's why I currently have Maru ahead of him. Saying that, I'd be very interested in seeing how my rankings evolve if I were to update them 12 months from now.
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On March 23 2024 00:28 Smorrie wrote:
Arguments are jumping left and right, going from perceived skill, results, level of domination, tournament results, balance & of course a great deal of favoritism.
The main arguments appear to be revolving around Serral not playing in the most competitive environment & lacking GSL titles.
However, excluding Serral's lack of GSL participation, wherever he has been competing he's been the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far. He also played Maru plenty of times with an 80% win rate & is sporting a 70%+ win rate vs the best players in GSL. Won tournaments with GSL champion participation. Wherever Serral competes, he's as dominant as Flash in BW. In his incredible 20-1 Katowice run he's shown to be the best player out there, at the very least at this moment. Being the current best player of course is not equivalent to carrying the GOAT crown.
There are several points that could be made to justify Serral's lack of presence in GSL & the fact that Maru potentially wouldn't have been able to achieve similar results if Serral did participate in GSL. In the end this however is all hypothetically speaking and will never happen.
So the question is; what are the requirements that would crown Serral as the (majorly) undisputed GOAT? Or is this an impossible feat. without GSL participation?
Having a hard time believing serral was "the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far" when soO won iem, Innovation won wesg and Dark won wcs in 2019; Rogue won iem in 2020; Reynor won iem in 2021; and Reynor won G8 in 2023. Increase the search beyond just iem, wesg, and G8 and you get even more championships from maru and the other zergs not named serral.
Also having a hard time with the serral/Flash equivalence. Flash wasn't propped by racial balance his whole career (shown by Flash dominating regardless of his terran counterparts). Bringing Flash into the equation only helps maru's case (consistently at the top regardless of how other terrans have performed, and sick proleague scores)
E: and let's not forget that when maru bopped serral in wesg very soon after terran got nerfed
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On March 23 2024 00:49 lokol4890 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 00:28 Smorrie wrote:
Arguments are jumping left and right, going from perceived skill, results, level of domination, tournament results, balance & of course a great deal of favoritism.
The main arguments appear to be revolving around Serral not playing in the most competitive environment & lacking GSL titles.
However, excluding Serral's lack of GSL participation, wherever he has been competing he's been the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far. He also played Maru plenty of times with an 80% win rate & is sporting a 70%+ win rate vs the best players in GSL. Won tournaments with GSL champion participation. Wherever Serral competes, he's as dominant as Flash in BW. In his incredible 20-1 Katowice run he's shown to be the best player out there, at the very least at this moment. Being the current best player of course is not equivalent to carrying the GOAT crown.
There are several points that could be made to justify Serral's lack of presence in GSL & the fact that Maru potentially wouldn't have been able to achieve similar results if Serral did participate in GSL. In the end this however is all hypothetically speaking and will never happen.
So the question is; what are the requirements that would crown Serral as the (majorly) undisputed GOAT? Or is this an impossible feat. without GSL participation?
Having a hard time believing serral was "the most dominant player for the last 6 years by far" when soO won iem, Innovation won wesg and Dark won wcs in 2019; Rogue won iem in 2020; Reynor won iem in 2021; and Reynor won G8 in 2023. Increase the search beyond just iem, wesg, and G8 and you get even more championships from maru and the other zergs not named serral. Also having a hard time with the serral/Flash equivalence. Flash wasn't propped by racial balance his whole career (shown by Flash dominating regardless of his terran counterparts). Bringing Flash into the equation only helps maru's case (consistently at the top regardless of how other terrans have performed, and sick proleague scores) E: and let's not forget that when maru bopped serral in wesg very soon after terran got nerfed
Serral won 24 Liquipedia-rated Premier events since 2018. Just for comparison, that is more than Marus finals appearances (not wins) in LotV (21, 11 wins, 10 losses). Even if you combine the Premier wins of the next two most succesful players in LotV (Rogue and Maru) it still doesn't catch up to Serral. With that, Serral outperforms every other player in the history of this game, including those who have played all three iterations, by a landslide.
So while you might argue about the competitive value of tournaments since whatever arbitrary line you might want to draw, if you ask "who was the most dominant player in the last six years" this numbers alone tell you "Serral" without competition. Yes, of course, he had stretches of winning less. Yes, of course, other players have won big tournaments. But to go back to Flash: It is not like he won every OSL and MSL ever, he actually had fair stretches where he didn't win neither.
But going by your logic, you are ready to discard the highest winning player of the last six years because he didn't win always everything and then choose the guy who didn't win half of the other players titles instead? Not to mention the clear difference in World Championship titles in the exact same timespan.
Usually when people put Maru ahead of Serral, it is because of Marus longer career and Proleague results. But if you seriously want to argue the best player of LotV/the last six years...c'mon
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/dXUoRsR.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Od3Nqfy.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/s0xdqQ9.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/GzsQODL.png)
