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On April 28 2024 21:25 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2024 09:16 JJH777 wrote:On April 28 2024 07:37 Locutos wrote:On April 28 2024 01:29 Poopi wrote:
...Maru does well in the GSL for the same reason Serral is successful in most tournaments he enters.
Correction: Maru does well in GSL because he's better than his peers, and because Serral wasnt born in Korea. And Serral only won as much as he's won because many SC2 tournaments have outright banned or artificially limited KR participation. Im not talking about ESL Europe. Im talking about the fact that in all the premiers Serral and Maru have both participated, Serral has won double the times Maru won. Simple as that.
Facts are really interesting when you ignore half the context.
KR sc2 esports started to really die due to a combination of the life match fixing(and subsequent kespa pull out) + EU and NA region locking making it impossible for the majority of Korean players to make a living. This isn't Serral's fault, nor is it his fault he wasn't born sooner to play a more active role in that period of time. Korea of today is not the Korea of 2017 or 2015. Perhaps Serral would still be churning out GOAT-worthy performances in that time but I'm not sure I'm convinced by that argument.
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On April 28 2024 21:39 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2024 21:25 Locutos wrote:On April 28 2024 09:16 JJH777 wrote:On April 28 2024 07:37 Locutos wrote:On April 28 2024 01:29 Poopi wrote:
...Maru does well in the GSL for the same reason Serral is successful in most tournaments he enters.
Correction: Maru does well in GSL because he's better than his peers, and because Serral wasnt born in Korea. And Serral only won as much as he's won because many SC2 tournaments have outright banned or artificially limited KR participation. Im not talking about ESL Europe. Im talking about the fact that in all the premiers Serral and Maru have both participated, Serral has won double the times Maru won. Simple as that. Facts are really interesting when you ignore half the context. KR sc2 esports started to really die due to a combination of the life match fixing(and subsequent kespa pull out) + EU and NA region locking making it impossible for the majority of Korean players to make a living. This isn't Serral's fault, nor is it his fault he wasn't born sooner to play a more active role in that period of time. Korea of today is not the Korea of 2017 or 2015. Perhaps Serral would still be churning out GOAT-worthy performances in that time but I'm not sure I'm convinced by that argument.
Agreed. It's weird to me when someone thinks that a player deserves credit for probably winning a hypothetical scenario that didn't actually happen. Like, if GSL didn't specifically ban Serral from competing (which was never a rule), then Serral would have won a bunch of GSLs (hypothetically), so let's pretend to add those non-existent wins to Serral's list of accomplishments.
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On April 28 2024 21:25 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2024 09:16 JJH777 wrote:On April 28 2024 07:37 Locutos wrote:On April 28 2024 01:29 Poopi wrote:
...Maru does well in the GSL for the same reason Serral is successful in most tournaments he enters.
Correction: Maru does well in GSL because he's better than his peers, and because Serral wasnt born in Korea. And Serral only won as much as he's won because many SC2 tournaments have outright banned or artificially limited KR participation. Im not talking about ESL Europe. Im talking about the fact that in all the premiers Serral and Maru have both participated, Serral has won double the times Maru won. Simple as that.
That doesn't support your original statement. You said that if Serral was in Korea Maru wouldn't do well in GSL. Serral winning more internationals where they both attended doesn't have much of anything to do with that statement because in the vast majority of those events the player who eliminated Maru wasn't Serral. In fact the vast majority of the time it was another Korean. Maru's lack of international success has almost nothing to do with Serral. Him playing in GSL would not make much difference to Maru's success because in the vast majority of GSLs they wouldn't even meet.
This is also vastly different than Serral's situation because most of his wins with the exception of like 4-5 were missing 10+ top Koreans that he'd have a very high likelihood of having to play at some point and all would have at least a ~20-30% chance of beating him. Missing 1 player makes less difference than 10+ even if that 1 is the best because no matter how good he is the median outcome of a tournament still has Maru and Serral missing each other but Serral isn't going to miss the addition of 10+ top players.
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France12911 Posts
On April 28 2024 07:37 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2024 01:29 Poopi wrote:
...Maru does well in the GSL for the same reason Serral is successful in most tournaments he enters.
Correction: Maru does well in GSL because he's better than his peers, and because Serral wasnt born in Korea.
I mean on a pure "talent" level, Maru is above every other player. The guy is just an alien. Serral works smartly and is very talented, but not as "out of this world" as Maru is.
Serral is a demigod while Maru is a tier above. That's why we are discussing on this thread where there is #1 before Maru's name 
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On April 29 2024 00:36 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2024 21:25 Locutos wrote:On April 28 2024 09:16 JJH777 wrote:On April 28 2024 07:37 Locutos wrote:On April 28 2024 01:29 Poopi wrote:
...Maru does well in the GSL for the same reason Serral is successful in most tournaments he enters.
Correction: Maru does well in GSL because he's better than his peers, and because Serral wasnt born in Korea. And Serral only won as much as he's won because many SC2 tournaments have outright banned or artificially limited KR participation. Im not talking about ESL Europe. Im talking about the fact that in all the premiers Serral and Maru have both participated, Serral has won double the times Maru won. Simple as that. That doesn't support your original statement. You said that if Serral was in Korea Maru wouldn't do well in GSL. Serral winning more internationals where they both attended doesn't have much of anything to do with that statement because in the vast majority of those events the player who eliminated Maru wasn't Serral. In fact the vast majority of the time it was another Korean. Maru's lack of international success has almost nothing to do with Serral. Him playing in GSL would not make much difference to Maru's success because in the vast majority of GSLs they wouldn't even meet. This is also vastly different than Serral's situation because most of his wins with the exception of like 4-5 were missing 10+ top Koreans that he'd have a very high likelihood of having to play at some point and all would have at least a ~20-30% chance of beating him. Missing 1 player makes less difference than 10+ even if that 1 is the best because no matter how good he is the median outcome of a tournament still has Maru and Serral missing each other but Serral isn't going to miss the addition of 10+ top players.
This is such an important point about tournament format that people seem to have a hard time grasping. Thanks for laying it out so clearly.
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In the mind of some Serral fan, him winning 2 GSL vs. World = winning most GSL Code S in the past 6 years.
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On April 29 2024 18:27 tigera6 wrote:
In the mind of some Serral fan, him winning 2 GSL vs. World = winning most GSL Code S in the past 6 years.
There were also a handful of those `world championship' things you've conveniently left off, much like Maru has conveniently left them off his trophy shelf.
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Northern Ireland26612 Posts
On April 29 2024 18:27 tigera6 wrote:
In the mind of some Serral fan, him winning 2 GSL vs. World = winning most GSL Code S in the past 6 years.
I mean that’s always going to be a non-zero number but it’s hardly a common consensus among Serral fans.
A bunch of WCs, the most premier wins even excluding WCS regionals, his remarkable statistics are the crux of most arguments
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On April 29 2024 19:00 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2024 18:27 tigera6 wrote:
In the mind of some Serral fan, him winning 2 GSL vs. World = winning most GSL Code S in the past 6 years. There were also a handful of those `world championship' things you've conveniently left off, much like Maru has conveniently left them off his trophy shelf.
Oh I am just talking in context of winning GSL in KR. Obviously Serral accomplishment is way more than just GSL, then again Byun has won 1 World Title, Dark has also won 1 and they combined have won "only" 3 GSL code S, so the "world championship" doesnt always equate to winning GSL, just saying.
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France12911 Posts
One of the better arguments about "who is the best" is usually how the other players perceive one another. On the other hand, you have to remember that there are circle of friends among the progamers. For example, some say HM is not well loved by other progamers because he is too "blunt" (probably too german in his way of thinking I guess? just honest). But usually he is pretty honest and has good takes in terms of player skills etc. compared to his own level.
And he played a bunch of players. There is his personal bias (for example he struggled with Zest a lot, but according to him he is the perfect protoss, similarly to Maru for terran most of the time, or Serral most of the time, etc.), but there is probably some truth to it.
In one HSC, ShoWTimE said that Serral "felt" stronger than Maru after losing vs both, but you have to take into perspective the state of PvT vs PvZ. If you struggle more in one match-up than another, or if the match-up is simply intrinsically easier (which was at the time I believe, PvT was easier to play overall than PvZ), it will affect your judgement, so it will affect what you say about each player strength. But it won't tell the "truth" (which is by definition very difficult to gauge) about player's strength, just your perception at the time.
I knew Serral was the real deal around 2017 iirc, before Serral really won anything, because he was a beast on ladder and HeroMarine spoke highly of him (like oh I lost but it was to be expected because it's Serral). Since HM usually speaks his mind and usually gauges players skill well regardless of race (because he doesn't just view the TvX perspective, but the overall perspective), I think he is a good proxy to "gauge" any progamer skill / level at any given time.
Still, you have to ask the other players too, as well as the casters, the crowd, use statistics like aligulac ; history like liquipedia, etc.
This whole GOAT list is of such high quality that it will take months for most of the community to realize it's not just "an opinion", but a very elaborated representation of Starcraft 2 esports history up to like 2023 / 2024 (when it was frozen and not taken into account for the list)
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Northern Ireland26612 Posts
On April 29 2024 19:32 Poopi wrote:
One of the better arguments about "who is the best" is usually how the other players perceive one another. On the other hand, you have to remember that there are circle of friends among the progamers. For example, some say HM is not well loved by other progamers because he is too "blunt" (probably too german in his way of thinking I guess? just honest). But usually he is pretty honest and has good takes in terms of player skills etc. compared to his own level.
And he played a bunch of players. There is his personal bias (for example he struggled with Zest a lot, but according to him he is the perfect protoss, similarly to Maru for terran most of the time, or Serral most of the time, etc.), but there is probably some truth to it.
In one HSC, ShoWTimE said that Serral "felt" stronger than Maru after losing vs both, but you have to take into perspective the state of PvT vs PvZ. If you struggle more in one match-up than another, or if the match-up is simply intrinsically easier (which was at the time I believe, PvT was easier to play overall than PvZ), it will affect your judgement, so it will affect what you say about each player strength. But it won't tell the "truth" (which is by definition very difficult to gauge) about player's strength, just your perception at the time.
I knew Serral was the real deal around 2017 iirc, before Serral really won anything, because he was a beast on ladder and HeroMarine spoke highly of him (like oh I lost but it was to be expected because it's Serral). Since HM usually speaks his mind and usually gauges players skill well regardless of race (because he doesn't just view the TvX perspective, but the overall perspective), I think he is a good proxy to "gauge" any progamer skill / level at any given time.
Still, you have to ask the other players too, as well as the casters, the crowd, use statistics like aligulac ; history like liquipedia, etc.
This whole GOAT list is of such high quality that it will take months for most of the community to realize it's not just "an opinion", but a very elaborated representation of Starcraft 2 esports history up to like 2023 / 2024 (when it was frozen and not taken into account for the list)
Don’t need to go with Heromarine, plenty of the top Korean dogs all pretty much say Serral is the guy.
Hell after Katowice in his interview with Crank Maru himself said he’s got a 50/50 shot in his opinion if he’s bringing his A game. Granted this is Maru who’ll play one of the greatest series you’ll ever see and still say he’s not playing that well, so I may filter that through Maru generally being a negative Nancy.
I think the daunting thing about Serral is he basically never tanks a series, his decision making is usually on-point and even his B game is good enough to beat most. So for a lot of the field they have to bring their absolute best, hope Serral is bringing his B game and it’s still likely to go to a rubber match.
Maru in god mode, yeah that’s bloody terrifying but Serral on your average day is very bloody difficult to beat.
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United States1921 Posts
On April 29 2024 19:32 Poopi wrote:
One of the better arguments about "who is the best" is usually how the other players perceive one another. On the other hand, you have to remember that there are circle of friends among the progamers. For example, some say HM is not well loved by other progamers because he is too "blunt" (probably too german in his way of thinking I guess? just honest). But usually he is pretty honest and has good takes in terms of player skills etc. compared to his own level.
The GSL group selection is an excellent demonstration of how players evaluate one another. In 2017, soO choose to play the "worst" Protoss in the tournament in his opening match of Seasons 2 and 3 (Trust and Hush) respectively.
On April 29 2024 19:32 Poopi wrote:
And he played a bunch of players. There is his personal bias (for example he struggled with Zest a lot, but according to him he is the perfect protoss, similarly to Maru for terran most of the time, or Serral most of the time, etc.), but there is probably some truth to it.
When I asked soO who was harder to play against, Maru (who soO has had no real success against in Lotv) or Serral (who soO beat in some really high profile matches) and he said Serral is better.
On April 29 2024 19:32 Poopi wrote:
In one HSC, ShoWTimE said that Serral "felt" stronger than Maru after losing vs both, but you have to take into perspective the state of PvT vs PvZ. If you struggle more in one match-up than another, or if the match-up is simply intrinsically easier (which was at the time I believe, PvT was easier to play overall than PvZ), it will affect your judgement, so it will affect what you say about each player strength. But it won't tell the "truth" (which is by definition very difficult to gauge) about player's strength, just your perception at the time.
This ties back to soO wanting to play against he "worst" Protoss. soO's worst matchup has historically been ZvT, while he was quite good at ZvP back in 2017. This doesn't mean Hush or Trust were worse than the objectively "worst" Terran in the event, but these matchups need to be evaluated on a case by case basis.
Also, soO once remarked that sOs described soO's peak ZvP as "he [soO] always has more stuff than other Zergs". How it feels to play against someone matters a lot, even if you can't quantify it.
On April 29 2024 19:32 Poopi wrote:
I knew Serral was the real deal around 2017 iirc, before Serral really won anything, because he was a beast on ladder and HeroMarine spoke highly of him (like oh I lost but it was to be expected because it's Serral). Since HM usually speaks his mind and usually gauges players skill well regardless of race (because he doesn't just view the TvX perspective, but the overall perspective), I think he is a good proxy to "gauge" any progamer skill / level at any given time.
I like to call 2017 Serral StarCraft II's worst kept secret. Every pro knew he was going to take a big jump when he went full time pro.
Still, you have to ask the other players too, as well as the casters, the crowd, use statistics like aligulac ; history like liquipedia, etc.
On April 29 2024 19:32 Poopi wrote:
This whole GOAT list is of such high quality that it will take months for most of the community to realize it's not just "an opinion", but a very elaborated representation of Starcraft 2 esports history up to like 2023 / 2024 (when it was frozen and not taken into account for the list)
How kind.
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France12911 Posts
That's interesting though, Serral aims to be better, so he will sometimes play "boring" options that are more optimal, while Maru (consciously or unconsciously) will sometimes make decisions that bite him in the ass (example being his vs Reynor game3 iirc during Katowice 2024), but will manage to still stabilize with godlike defense / micro that makes the game an epic one.
Since esports is not just competition but also entertainment, I find more enjoyable the players who manage to come back from sub optimal decisions through sheer godlike skill, rather than players who will do their best to win even if it's not flashy.
We call it "le beau jeu" in French :D
So I am not surprised soO finds Serral better. Maru is greater though (and can be better than anyone else when he is at his best)
As for the "feeling" a player, as a player in the past myself that played versus numerous pros during WoL, I can agree to that feeling. Happy had an insane micro to every tiny interaction: it was not necessarily the most optimal move, but everytime you had to fight his units, you could sense he was just doing slightly better things. Unfortunately for him, that skill set is not as suited to Starcraft as it is to Warcraft.
Similarly for LucifroN: he was the terran other than Happy who had the most insane micro management I ever played in WoL. Polt on the other hand, you felt like he knew everything in advance. Like you have a plan, but somehow he managed to read your thoughts: sure, it could be "build order luck", but is it really? The guy is "relatively" slow albeit clean for a progamer, but he is pretty smart. That's why he is successful nowadays as a coach for T1 and stuff.
Stephano was ahead of its time during his prime, he seemed to always have an eye on the minimap and he managed runbyes / counter attacks better than other zergs at the time, unfortunately he was a bit cocky so he did not bother to scout in ZvT properly and it cost him his series versus INnoVation.
Fun times.
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On April 29 2024 21:57 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2024 19:32 Poopi wrote:
One of the better arguments about "who is the best" is usually how the other players perceive one another. On the other hand, you have to remember that there are circle of friends among the progamers. For example, some say HM is not well loved by other progamers because he is too "blunt" (probably too german in his way of thinking I guess? just honest). But usually he is pretty honest and has good takes in terms of player skills etc. compared to his own level. The GSL group selection is an excellent demonstration of how players evaluate one another. In 2017, soO choose to play the "worst" Protoss in the tournament in his opening match of Seasons 2 and 3 (Trust and Hush) respectively. Show nested quote +On April 29 2024 19:32 Poopi wrote:
And he played a bunch of players. There is his personal bias (for example he struggled with Zest a lot, but according to him he is the perfect protoss, similarly to Maru for terran most of the time, or Serral most of the time, etc.), but there is probably some truth to it.
When I asked soO who was harder to play against, Maru (who soO has had no real success against in Lotv) or Serral (who soO beat in some really high profile matches) and he said Serral is better. Show nested quote +On April 29 2024 19:32 Poopi wrote:
In one HSC, ShoWTimE said that Serral "felt" stronger than Maru after losing vs both, but you have to take into perspective the state of PvT vs PvZ. If you struggle more in one match-up than another, or if the match-up is simply intrinsically easier (which was at the time I believe, PvT was easier to play overall than PvZ), it will affect your judgement, so it will affect what you say about each player strength. But it won't tell the "truth" (which is by definition very difficult to gauge) about player's strength, just your perception at the time.
This ties back to soO wanting to play against he "worst" Protoss. soO's worst matchup has historically been ZvT, while he was quite good at ZvP back in 2017. This doesn't mean Hush or Trust were worse than the objectively "worst" Terran in the event, but these matchups need to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Also, soO once remarked that sOs described soO's peak ZvP as "he [soO] always has more stuff than other Zergs". How it feels to play against someone matters a lot, even if you can't quantify it. Show nested quote +On April 29 2024 19:32 Poopi wrote:
I knew Serral was the real deal around 2017 iirc, before Serral really won anything, because he was a beast on ladder and HeroMarine spoke highly of him (like oh I lost but it was to be expected because it's Serral). Since HM usually speaks his mind and usually gauges players skill well regardless of race (because he doesn't just view the TvX perspective, but the overall perspective), I think he is a good proxy to "gauge" any progamer skill / level at any given time.
I like to call 2017 Serral StarCraft II's worst kept secret. Every pro knew he was going to take a big jump when he went full time pro. Still, you have to ask the other players too, as well as the casters, the crowd, use statistics like aligulac ; history like liquipedia, etc. Show nested quote +On April 29 2024 19:32 Poopi wrote:
This whole GOAT list is of such high quality that it will take months for most of the community to realize it's not just "an opinion", but a very elaborated representation of Starcraft 2 esports history up to like 2023 / 2024 (when it was frozen and not taken into account for the list)
How kind.
I guess soO is very familiar with Maru, they have been battling during all their careers, soO has had the upper hand many times also and has been watching Maru grow as a player. Whereas for Serral he has only meet the "final product".
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mizzenhauer and his followers just ignore simple statistics, like head2head, tournaments won, money won, winrates, mapscores, performance vs the other topplayers and so on
than totaly overvalue gsl and its "preparation"
and also think they know better than betting sides and all the other pro gamers who (90%) of them self think serral is the goat
how you call people who ignore facts, and think they know better than the people who makes money out of s2 and thinks they know better than the actual gamers who breathe and live and play this game vs those players in question for years
maybe , just maybe a little bit naive ?
User was banned for this post.
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France12911 Posts
There is no such thing as simple statistics, and statistics are meant to be used in combination with storytelling
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Maru is greater though (and can be better than anyone else when he is at his best)
Can we please put emphasis on the fact that this is purely your personal opinion, never in any way, shape or form proven by statistics or arguments?
Don't mean that as an attack, but you constantly throw that statement around like it is some kind of unwritten law of Starcraft 2 that everyone is aware of. It isn't. In fact, you yourself contradict that statement right after Katowice, when you exclaimed Maru "played like a God" during the finals...which he lost 4:0. If that was Maru at his absolute best, then why didn't he win atleast a map?
And I know, I also stated in the past that Serral is the best player in terms of skill and potential - in my opinion. Because it is mostly an opinion- or even feeling-based statement. Peak Serral feels untouchable, like he never even misplaces a unit. Every Zergling is exactly where it should be at all times and even when the opponent blocks the first, second and third attack, there is always a "yes, but..." with him.
I kind of get where you are coming from, since I would also attest that Marus greatest strength is his raw level of skill - but that is basically the only thing going for him, as weird as that seems. Which for me (again, just by personal feeling), proves that he can't be "better than anyone else at full potential", because his thing is literally that he can beat most people below him consistently, but can't punch above his paygrade. If he was the most gifted and best in terms of raw skill, he never would need to punch above said paygrade, because there wouldn't be anyone there to punch.
Anyway. Just wanted to clarifiy that point about him being "the greatest". Argue with statistics, overhype the GSL format if you need to, because that is based on statistics and arguments. But "he is the best because he is my favorite player and I like terran" isn't exactly an argument to throw around.
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I know a perfect thread for Serral's fans to post in about his greatness - it's called #2: Serral
For some reason this thread has 34 pages after 1.5 months and Serral's thread has 8 pages with last post being from a month ago. How about posting about Serral in a thread about Serral, wouldn't it be more fitting? 
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On April 30 2024 01:56 ZeroByte13 wrote:I know a perfect thread for Serral's fans to post in about his greatness - it's called #2: SerralFor some reason this thread has 34 pages after 1.5 months and Serral's thread has 8 pages with last post being from a month ago. How about posting about Serral in a thread about Serral, wouldn't it be more fitting?
I guess that just proves that Serral's thread simply isn't the greatest of all time.
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On April 30 2024 01:56 ZeroByte13 wrote:I know a perfect thread for Serral's fans to post in about his greatness - it's called #2: SerralFor some reason this thread has 34 pages after 1.5 months and Serral's thread has 8 pages with last post being from a month ago. How about posting about Serral in a thread about Serral, wouldn't it be more fitting?
"I disagree with Maru being the Greatest Player of All Time. If you want to know who I would pick instead, please read my post in the other thread. But I guess you could also make a point about a third player, but I've written that in yet another thread"
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EPT
