EPTKorean Elitism built once a mausoleum of frozen recency of bygone era and then they got stuck and locked into it.
No wonder already difficult task of comparing eras becomes... uh... if not impossible, pretty meaningless at least.
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 16
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UnLarva
458 Posts
Korean Elitism built once a mausoleum of frozen recency of bygone era and then they got stuck and locked into it. No wonder already difficult task of comparing eras becomes... uh... if not impossible, pretty meaningless at least. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26562 Posts
On March 19 2024 05:13 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Are you referring to me or people in general? Because I've had huge issues with this list ever since i saw Rain at #10 and been very vocal about it. Then things got sus when I saw Ty make it, and soO above them, and started to think that MVP or Dark would be left out. It only got worse when Inno was #5 because then I started to get afraid that MVP might be put above him - i concluded that it must be Dark because Dark has continued going for years beyond Inno by now. Then it got worse worse when MVP was not only in over Dark, but over Innovation. I got accused of revisionist history for my opinions/memories heh. Then it was even worse with Rogue Serral Maru being the final 3 order. This list has no consistency and therefore no integrity as a ranking unfortunately, while they are nice and well researched articles to read (and nice list of recommended games). They both have a claim to #1 certainly, but within the context of this list - placing MVP above Innovation and leaving Dark out is a huge mistake, and placing soO above Dark and heckin Rain and TY over Dark are less huge but still whack. All of those things should have led to Rogue Maru Serral being the final order (or possibly Maru Rogue Serral since Rogue had a high peak in a short time that was arguably higher than Maru's, but either way Serral clearly has the highest peak not just for 1-2 years but for 6 years, and should have been #1). I feel there are ways to do it. Pure eye test, the numbers route. Alternatively rather than actually trying to rank a top 10 on exactly equal parameters, you can sorta assign categories and do it that way. Which, for a scene that has shifted in games, structure quite considerably over the years I feel is really the only way I can do it, personally Whether intentionally or not, Miz’s list lines up pretty similarly to mine, although honestly I wouldn’t try to order all that rigidly. Just for reference, as to vague categories and example players. Note this isn’t necessarily my top 10, I’m just stacking the categories for illustration’s sake Scariest peaks/play level versus the competition - Inno, Maru, Serral Innovator, ahead of the curve - Mvp Carpe Diem - $o$, Rogue, Reynor Consistent contenders - Dark, soO, TY Weekender collectors - Taeja, herO, Trap I mean I just don’t get how you can really have a consistent list because direct comparison becomes so difficult with such varying claims. I mean to take one example how does one compare an SoS who monster peaked for a few WCs, and gradually fell away in LoTV, to a Trap who was less competitive in the Kespa era but later basically solo carried Protoss for about 2 years? It’s rather tricky! Personally I go for Trap, more consistent, just a better level of play and was consistently winning things. But some will weigh a WC as much more important, which is also a totally fair call. For me level of play and consistently winning things comes first, and then amongst that bracket of players the WCs take on big value in differentiating those guys. It’s a bit of a difficult and thankless task this one, glad it’s not me who has Redditors making TL accounts just to have a moan! | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
I think this is prime example of that meme situation were Spiderman points to other Spiderman. It's not like the flow is unidirectional from Reddit to TL.net. Same dudes rant same stuff here and there, and "new dudes" pop up like autumn mushrooms in Reddit too. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1901 Posts
(I don't know where else to comment on this since he doesn't have a goat conversation thread, sorry) | ||
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Kitai
United States880 Posts
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tommey.liang
United States363 Posts
Maru has truly withstood the test of time through all of the eras of SC2. | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On March 19 2024 11:38 tommey.liang wrote: Ultimately it comes down to time and consistency. I'm ok with this as of March 2024, but we'll see how the rankings ultimately shape up again in 2027 or so. Maru has truly withstood the test of time through all of the eras of SC2. By 2027, already moribund GSL is gone extinct by military retirements and wide-spread Kespa era induced broken wrist -syndrome. We will still struggle against then hegemonic, and fully dogmatised and canonised GSL-Golden-wristism, and few 2 tier grandpa pros from Korea still active will remind us all that there was a time when "going full foreigner" meant different thing than it does to new generations of - mostly - Euro players. Serral still plays semi-professionally from the role of player-coach of his own team house at Pornainen, Finland (with healthy wrist ofc, due woodchopping, and for not following Kespa era model of quantity-over-quality in his training). Meanwhile Global cult of Golden Wristers rage in Reddit for the honor of woulda-coulda-shoulda undisputed goat, only if kespyic levels of golden-wristing wouldn't have broke so many wrists, confirmed by the empiric fact that some TL and Reddit guys suffer from same symptoms for entirely different reasons by then... 100 years further and there are 20 tons of mummified relics of Korean wrists at the Global market circulation - all allegedly GOAT Maru's. Only most knowledgeable Sc2 geeks even recognize the most obscure apocryphal name of Dark, who was written off from The Book of Miz, Codified standard version of history from the times when Sons of Serral sank Atlantis... | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On March 19 2024 07:12 CicadaSC wrote: One thing no one really comments on is race strength over the years when determining best player of all time. I'm not talking about balance now, but overall zerg have over performed. I think it's no surprise if zerg is receiving constant nerfs every patch they were probably overtuned before. Winning with Toss could arguably be weighted more than with zerg or terran. Is Stats the best toss ever? Maybe maybe not, but he didn't even make this list which I feel like he definitely should have. (I don't know where else to comment on this since he doesn't have a goat conversation thread, sorry) Yeah it's pretty impressive for Trap for example to have accomplished what he did, winning a few GSL branded tournaments when Zerg was still strong (before the creep nerf and removing Transfuse off creep, etc.). He's definitely an underrated Protoss especially when considering that. He also won vs Serral at least once in one of those ESL season finales which is really impressive considering the state of PvZ back then. | ||
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MyLovelyLurker
France756 Posts
 ). Everyone has a list and we have some of the world's best SC2 history experts on this forum. It would be very interesting to see ! | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On March 19 2024 20:23 MyLovelyLurker wrote: Rather than overfitting to Miz's list just because he's been the only one so far with the passion and dedication to write a small master's thesis worth of content, I'd be honestly curious to see everyone's top 10 list, with or without justifications. After all, tons of people here have been watching SC2 and Broodwar since early days (myself included, although I have been off more than on . Everyone has a list and we have some of the world's SC2 history experts on this forum. It would be very interesting to see !My list would be: 1. Maru 2. Serral 3. Rogue 4. Inno 5. Zest 6. sOs 7. Life 8. Dark 9. Stats 10. Mvp 11. herO (10 if Life is excluded) Justification: high emphasis on results when the competition was at its highest + factoring in Proleague, mostly judging top 4 tournament finishes in the biggest events (Katowice, Blizzcon, WESG/gamers8, GSL, GSL super tournament, variants of ESL season finals) with of course much more points for 1st place | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26562 Posts
2. Maru 3. Innovation 4. Rogue 5. Zest 6. Dark 7. Stats 8. Mvp 9. sOs 10. soO 11-15 in no order: Trap, herO, Ty, Rain, Taeja I’m going to assume that my 1-4 ordering may be the controversial aspects for me list! None of these factors are entirely independent ofc, often they compound each other. But I tend to rate sheer level of play, dominance and being the outright best very highly, especially over longevity. Serral it’s the numbers, it’s him being a championship contender for basically every tournament for 6 years and being so consistent that a Ro8 is considered a bad tournament for him. I vividly remember discussions on this very board as to why nobody in SC2 was as numerically dominant as a Flash in BW, or even a Jaedong or Bisu. Common consensus was SC2 being that little less mechanically difficult meant that even the top guys can lose to the merely decent because there’s less of a gap that mechanics can consistently give as an advantage. That the game was just always going to be a little more volatile and you simply wouldn’t see those 70-75% kind of win rates, and I was one of the people who agreed with that at the time. Serral is effectively actually doing something I hadn’t considered as possible, so it’s difficult for me not to give him that top spot Inno over Rogue it’s probably as simple as I was actively following SC2 when Inno ascended, and wasn’t when Rogue had his incredible year. So I’ve got those residual memories of ‘holy shit this guy is a god’ for The Machine that I don’t for Rogue. | ||
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goldensail
132 Posts
Here's the Kespa Hall of Fame interview with both TY and Maru from '21 (English subtitle available, 06:24) where you can hear Maru mention himself in a 'slump' due to shoulder issues. I do see Maru slowing down a bit when compared to his teenage years. I suppose every great player eventually does, and the fact that he's able to play so well despite his physical condition is testament to his skill and understanding of the game. www.youtube.com P.S. two points not commonly discussed: 1) many people talk about Maru not performing in international tournaments (bear in mind "not performing" is relative, e.g. 2nd places at Katowice 2 years in a row would be considered an accomplishment for basically any other player) - but these "international" tournaments are almost always held in EU (and ocasionally US). European players obviously have a time zone advantage. How much does this affect players' performance? I'm sure this varies, but for the "other" international tournaments held in China (WESG) which has only 1 hour of time difference vs. Korea, Maru actually did very well (one Championship and one 2nd place), whereas Serral lost to Maru and Innovation respectively in the 2 years he went. 2) In addition, I feel the Kato format which crams quarter/semi/grand finals into one day favors Zerg. Terran players have to micro/multi-task more heavily, and by the end of a long day they would've been more worn out only to play another BO7. GSL is better in this regard i.e. you get proper rest before the final. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7142 Posts
On March 19 2024 07:12 CicadaSC wrote: One thing no one really comments on is race strength over the years when determining best player of all time. I'm not talking about balance now, but overall zerg have over performed. I think it's no surprise if zerg is receiving constant nerfs every patch they were probably overtuned before. Winning with Toss could arguably be weighted more than with zerg or terran. Is Stats the best toss ever? Maybe maybe not, but he didn't even make this list which I feel like he definitely should have. (I don't know where else to comment on this since he doesn't have a goat conversation thread, sorry) According to Miz, the GPOAT is Zest, which makes sense since he is, well, Best Probably something like this 1. Zest 2. sOs 3. Stats 4. Rain 5. herO 6. Trap 7. MC 8. Classic 9. Parting 10. Neeb | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13994 Posts
On March 19 2024 20:26 Charoisaur wrote: My list would be: 1. Maru 2. Serral 3. Rogue 4. Inno 5. Zest 6. sOs 7. Life 8. Dark 9. Stats 10. Mvp 11. herO (10 if Life is excluded) Justification: high emphasis on results when the competition was at its highest + factoring in Proleague, mostly judging top 4 tournament finishes in the biggest events (Katowice, Blizzcon, WESG/gamers8, GSL, GSL super tournament, variants of ESL season finals) with of course much more points for 1st place Think I would have mvp > stats > dark for no justifiable reason, but this is the list. 11 - 15 would probably include herO TaeJa TY Reynor Rain | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26562 Posts
On March 19 2024 22:34 Harris1st wrote: According to Miz, the GPOAT is Zest, which makes sense since he is, well, Best Probably something like this 1. Zest 2. sOs 3. Stats 4. Rain 5. herO 6. Trap 7. MC 8. Classic 9. Parting 10. Neeb I feel the term should be ‘Proat’, it just scans better! On March 19 2024 23:03 Cricketer12 wrote: Think I would have mvp > stats > dark for no justifiable reason, but this is the list. 11 - 15 would probably include herO TaeJa TY Reynor Rain Aye I haven’t seen anything too outrageous so far! It’s actually relatively easy to come up with a top 15 pool of players, almost impossible to come up with a consistent way to actually order them | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On March 19 2024 20:23 MyLovelyLurker wrote: Rather than overfitting to Miz's list just because he's been the only one so far with the passion and dedication to write a small master's thesis worth of content, I'd be honestly curious to see everyone's top 10 list, with or without justifications. After all, tons of people here have been watching SC2 and Broodwar since early days (myself included, although I have been off more than on ). Everyone has a list and we have some of the world's best SC2 history experts on this forum. It would be very interesting to see !I tried to do this and found it really hard to make any decisions. Time and memory really distorts how I feel about these players. Like, who do I rate higher, Fruitdealer or Oliveira? Trying to impose a hierarchy on good times feels like an exercise in misery. | ||
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Zealos
United Kingdom3576 Posts
On March 19 2024 05:58 UnLarva wrote: I'm mildly annoyed for the use of 'revisionist history' in this context, as from a point of typical Korean Elitist view it is exactly that. Undermining last 7-8 years Sc2 history (about half of entire history of the game) using age old measuring stick of Kespa era, in a way that almost feel like history ended at latest to Blizzcon 2018, so you must always rewind and revisit to Kespa epoch to say anything about what came after that era. Kind of reversed revisionism where one must always use improper measures of times long gone to evaluate the recent. Nostalgic feelings and constant revision then put folks accuse others for their 'recency bias' because they try look to things using proper measuring sticks for an era. Korean Elitism built once a mausoleum of frozen recency of bygone era and then they got stuck and locked into it. No wonder already difficult task of comparing eras becomes... uh... if not impossible, pretty meaningless at least. It might be "midly annoying" unfortunately the truth doesnt care about your feelings | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26562 Posts
On March 20 2024 00:17 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I tried to do this and found it really hard to make any decisions. Time and memory really distorts how I feel about these players. Like, who do I rate higher, Fruitdealer or Oliveira? Trying to impose a hierarchy on good times feels like an exercise in misery. Excellent point, beautifully phrased! | ||
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tigera6
3482 Posts
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Mizenhauer
United States1919 Posts
Once you get past the top 30 or so, you're basically ranking anyone who has won a WC/Season of Code S regardless of what the rest of their career looks like. | ||
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