EPTWho's the GOAT for each specific matchup?
What's the GOAT map that yields the most interesting and epic games?
What was the most dominant half year stretch by any player?
etc
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 17
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Nasigil
137 Posts
Who's the GOAT for each specific matchup? What's the GOAT map that yields the most interesting and epic games? What was the most dominant half year stretch by any player? etc | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
This argument is between people with an objective view of the scene, and the gatekeeping "old guard" who need GSL to be the only tournament that matters so they can retain some level of clout in the starcraft community. It's deranged. I'll get warned or banned for this for the exact same motivation of theirs. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27412 Posts
On March 20 2024 02:47 Nasigil wrote: Some other GOAT discussion ideas instead of hanging up on Serral vs Maru all day. Who's the GOAT for each specific matchup? What's the GOAT map that yields the most interesting and epic games? What was the most dominant half year stretch by any player? etc ZvP Serral and PvP Zest are the relatively easy ones, IMO anyway. TvZ I think Inno or Maru at various times are the clear favourites. TvP is almost certainly Maru and TvT you’ve got a few good claims PvNonP is really hard though. It feels Protoss has periods of flux and change and players wax and wane in vT and vZ depending on metas. Most of the top Protoss names are all kinda decent at all matchups overall without being considerably better at one over a career’s length. herO’s PvZ currently is clearly above his PvT, but he’s had times where the latter is stronger. PvT it’s perhaps recency bias but I do think Trap showed a very strong, very solid PvT for a pretty damn long time. Stylistically I quite liked it too. PvZ you probably have the worst pool of candidates in terms of matchup specialists in any matchup in the game, it’s tough to think of anyone who truly excelled in it for any kind of elongated period | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16095 Posts
On March 20 2024 03:11 WombaT wrote: ZvP Serral and PvP Zest are the relatively easy ones, IMO anyway. TvZ I think Inno or Maru at various times are the clear favourites. TvP is almost certainly Maru and TvT you’ve got a few good claims PvNonP is really hard though. It feels Protoss has periods of flux and change and players wax and wane in vT and vZ depending on metas. Most of the top Protoss names are all kinda decent at all matchups overall without being considerably better at one over a career’s length. herO’s PvZ currently is clearly above his PvT, but he’s had times where the latter is stronger. PvT it’s perhaps recency bias but I do think Trap showed a very strong, very solid PvT for a pretty damn long time. Stylistically I quite liked it too. PvZ you probably have the worst pool of candidates in terms of matchup specialists in any matchup in the game, it’s tough to think of anyone who truly excelled in it for any kind of elongated period Stats imo had the best PvZ by far. In 2016 and 2017 he dominated every Zerg including Dark in the matchup and in late 2018 he came closer to beating Serral than anyone else | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
Lifetime: 69.23% Since 2023-01-01: 85.71% Maru Match Winning % against Korean Players Lifetime: 66.97% Since 2023-01-01: 80.41% Serral Winning % Against Maru : 67.24% in games 77.78% in matches -- complete domination You're telling me the GSL effect is strong enough to explain this significant of a disparity in winning percentages? And not the entire GSL effect (korean players are better than foreigners on average, true), but the effect of location and timing of matches ALONE? In fact, these percentages hold when you stratify by online/offline AND it must be said that the Korean players Serral faces are generally better than the ones Maru faces because Serral plays the top koreans who make it to season finals etc, while Maru will play koreans who do not qualify. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
On March 19 2024 21:08 WombaT wrote: 1. Serral 2. Maru 3. Innovation 4. Rogue 5. Zest 6. Dark 7. Stats 8. Mvp 9. sOs 10. soO 11-15 in no order: Trap, herO, Ty, Rain, Taeja Innovation over Rogue definitely isn't a weird choice ! Rogue's accomplishments were more recent and condensed in a short period of peak strength, but Innovation was so godamn good for so long in the earlier and more competitive years, and racking up less premiere wins and such is fine since the scene was much bigger My list is probably: 1*) Serral 2/3**) Maru/Rogue (meaning I slightly favor Maru but it goes either way for me) 4) Innovation 5) Life 6/7) Dark/MVP 8/9) Zest/Stats 10) sOs 11) Taeja 12***) soO 13/14) TY/Classic 15/16) Rain/herO 17****) Trap 18) Reynor 19) MC 20) MMA 21/22) Nestea/Polt *Serral: Has a less a rounded resume compared to Rogue, but the level of his play, the winrate, the consistency make it very clear he's by far the best SC2 player ever, and currently the best player in the most experienced era of SC2. His dominance over a long 6 year period also is sufficient to check any longetivity requirements. When it comes to factors he can control (his level of play and dominance in the era he was able to compete in), he is as maxed out as you can humanly expect someone to be. He also won 2 GSL vs the World out of 2 when SC2 was still in a strong era, a tournament that people often counted as a "real" GSL win for MVP's "4 GSL wins", so Serral's resume is still very well rounded overall. **Maru/Rogue: Rogue has a very strong claim over Maru considering Rogue had to go to the military first. If we're comparing their careers before Rogue had to leave, and counting Maru's final 3 GSLs very low (due to heavy downsizing, being partially online, the Finals being same day as Semis - and because Maru and Rogue were directly competing against each other over Code S), I would put Rogue over Maru as his resume is much more balanced with WC wins, Code S wins, Supers/weekender wins, he has arguably a higher peak than Maru when Maru was also peaking, and his H2H record and Bo7 statistics indicated he would continue to have the upper hand vs Maru in Code S if he didn't retire. For my ranking, I do value team league performance but I don't value Proleague as highly as others, as I always felt individual leagues had more glory for individual players, whereas team leagues are more about the team and the support the team gave them, even if they might be their team's ace. When you win with a team then your team is winning the glory together, but when you win an individual league you win all the glory for yourself. ***soO: If he had 1 Code S win and 4 Code S 2nd places instead of 6 2nd places, I'd put him below sOs and above Taeja. It just doesn't feel quite right to me to put someone who can't win above Taeja who was very good at winning. ****Trap: Trap is an interesting case because while I find his strength in mid-late LotV very impressive, considering it's a very experienced era of SC2 with a lot of really great players, it's also a weaker era in terms of the level of competition/infrastructure being less than the Kespa era. He had great results in DH/ESL Masters, but they have a bit of a caveat with being online tournaments during COVID. His 3 GSL Super wins are great (especially considering the prize money for 1st is the same as a Code S in the same era), but Supers in that time didn't feel as serious or feel they had as much glory as Code S still. If PvZ was a bit more balanced during Trap's years and he won 2 of the Code S he lost to Dark/Rogue (or maybe 1 Code S + 2 of the DH/ESL Masters he lost to Reynor/Serral), he mighta been the greatest Protoss and right below Dark or next to Zest/Stats. Also, i feel people might be forgetting Classic among the other Protosses. | ||
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Starcloud
138 Posts
On March 19 2024 20:23 MyLovelyLurker wrote: Rather than overfitting to Miz's list just because he's been the only one so far with the passion and dedication to write a small master's thesis worth of content, I'd be honestly curious to see everyone's top 10 list, with or without justifications. After all, tons of people here have been watching SC2 and Broodwar since early days (myself included, although I have been off more than on  ). Everyone has a list and we have some of the world's best SC2 history experts on this forum. It would be very interesting to see !My list would prolly be like: 1. Serral 2. Maru 3. Rogue 4. Inno 5. Dark 6. sOs 7. Soo 8. Zest 9. her0 10.Taeja *edited, forgot Zest completely ^^ | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
However, even Liguipedia summarily list them under label GSL along with Code S and Super Tournaments, here:  Global StarCraft II LeagueGSL Gatekeepers could do better job with their gate keeping, and actually edit pages accordingly whenever needs to redefine meaning of GSL happens. | ||
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goldensail
132 Posts
On March 20 2024 03:30 TentativePanda wrote: Serral Match Winning % against Korean Players Lifetime: 69.23% Since 2023-01-01: 85.71% Maru Match Winning % against Korean Players Lifetime: 66.97% Since 2023-01-01: 80.41% Serral Winning % Against Maru : 67.24% in games 77.78% in matches -- complete domination You're telling me the GSL effect is strong enough to explain this significant of a disparity in winning percentages? And not the entire GSL effect (korean players are better than foreigners on average, true), but the effect of location and timing of matches ALONE? In fact, these percentages hold when you stratify by online/offline AND it must be said that the Korean players Serral faces are generally better than the ones Maru faces because Serral plays the top koreans who make it to season finals etc, while Maru will play koreans who do not qualify. Read this: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/551542-rogue-i-won-because-balance-really-favors-zerg-comments-on-serral | ||
Poopi
France13021 Posts
Right now it would be: 1.  Maru2.  Rogue3. Serral4. INnoVation 5.  Zest6. Dark7. Mvp8. sOs9. soO10. TY11. Stats 12. Reynor13. MC (Life if we don’t exclude him)14. Rain15. MMAEdit: funnily there are 5 P/T/Z The main points: Rogue over Serral because Rogue was better than Serral at several point in times (mainly IEM where Serral couldn’t beat the protoss like Classic and Zest whereas Rogue destroyed them), and he was tested in relatively GSL code S. I also think that Rogue has a better shot at being creative when Zerg isn’t simply superior in macro games, compared to Serral who has a better overall macro game but less abilities to pull off clever cheeses. Maru over everyone because 4 code S in a row at the time is simply an incredible feat, great proleague player despite being young, victorious both in HotS during the most competitive era and in LotV being the most dominant KR player, as well as being the only hope for Terran multiple times patch after patch. Reynor over Life (if we don’t exclude him) because I truly think that Reynor has a style similar to Life, but with better mechanics. Since Reynor is still young, he might climb up the ranking depending on when the scene is truly dead. Similarly, Clem could achieve top 15 if he pulls off a win in Riyadh, otherwise it’s probably too late for him to catch up. Dark over mvp because he was the best Zerg / player in the world (depending on how you view TvZ balance in 2016, and ZvX balance in 2019) in 2016 and 2019, with still a lot of strong players in the scene. He was also a force in code S. MC over Rain because MC is a better entertainer, and carried protoss at several points in time. Otherwise I think the list is pretty « vanilla » but I can explain some other choices if they seem weird. | ||
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Nasigil
137 Posts
On March 20 2024 03:11 WombaT wrote: ZvP Serral and PvP Zest are the relatively easy ones, IMO anyway. TvZ I think Inno or Maru at various times are the clear favourites. TvP is almost certainly Maru and TvT you’ve got a few good claims PvNonP is really hard though. It feels Protoss has periods of flux and change and players wax and wane in vT and vZ depending on metas. Most of the top Protoss names are all kinda decent at all matchups overall without being considerably better at one over a career’s length. herO’s PvZ currently is clearly above his PvT, but he’s had times where the latter is stronger. PvT it’s perhaps recency bias but I do think Trap showed a very strong, very solid PvT for a pretty damn long time. Stylistically I quite liked it too. PvZ you probably have the worst pool of candidates in terms of matchup specialists in any matchup in the game, it’s tough to think of anyone who truly excelled in it for any kind of elongated period You can't forget PartinG's PvT. His overall career didn't reach as high as other great Protoss like Zest/Stats/Classic/Trap/herO but his PvT numbers over the years are pretty crazy. Dude has a insane 10 year run from 2012 to 2022 in which he had 70% series PvT winrate against Korean Terran players. Other top Protoss can barely put together this number for one year stretch but PartinG did it on a 10 year span. | ||
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tigera6
3516 Posts
On March 20 2024 04:02 UnLarva wrote: "GSL Gatekeeping" becomes most transparent with near systematic, but happily narcotic somnium of misremembering with The GSL vs World tournaments. Serral's entire GSL experience consists those two occasions he actually went onto the Korean soil and won, and that happened during time when Korean scene wasn't yet as lethargic as it soon became. A important part of their gatekeeping is that when they say 'GSL' they actually mean 'Code S'. But because those two GSLs Serral won weren't preparation tournaments they won't count as GSL for Serral's career. However, even Liguipedia summarily list them under label GSL along with Code S and Super Tournaments, here: Global StarCraft II LeagueGSL Gatekeepers could do better job with their gate keeping, and actually edit pages accordingly whenever needs to redefine meaning of GSL happens. I mean Terran just doesnt do well in ST format, not sure why. I think Maru is the only Terran winner in its entire history. And if you value ST as much as a code S, then we need to rewrite the ranking because tons of Protoss and Zerg won that tournament but couldnt snip the code S achievement, mainly Trap. To me, its a damn shame to have a direct elimination bracket in a near 100k event. | ||
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JJH777
United States4420 Posts
On March 20 2024 04:02 UnLarva wrote: "GSL Gatekeeping" becomes most transparent with near systematic, but happily narcotic somnium of misremembering with The GSL vs World tournaments. Serral's entire GSL experience consists those two occasions he actually went onto the Korean soil and won, and that happened during time when Korean scene wasn't yet as lethargic as it soon became. A important part of their gatekeeping is that when they say 'GSL' they actually mean 'Code S'. But because those two GSLs Serral won weren't preparation tournaments they won't count as GSL for Serral's career. However, even Liguipedia summarily list them under label GSL along with Code S and Super Tournaments, here: Global StarCraft II LeagueGSL Gatekeepers could do better job with their gate keeping, and actually edit pages accordingly whenever needs to redefine meaning of GSL happens. Literally vote-ins for half the player pool, half the player pool required to be non-korean, no prep time, no qualifiers. GSL vs the World is not equivalent to a Code S. | ||
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Moonerz
United States467 Posts
On March 20 2024 03:11 WombaT wrote: ZvP Serral and PvP Zest are the relatively easy ones, IMO anyway. TvZ I think Inno or Maru at various times are the clear favourites. TvP is almost certainly Maru and TvT you’ve got a few good claims PvNonP is really hard though. It feels Protoss has periods of flux and change and players wax and wane in vT and vZ depending on metas. Most of the top Protoss names are all kinda decent at all matchups overall without being considerably better at one over a career’s length. herO’s PvZ currently is clearly above his PvT, but he’s had times where the latter is stronger. PvT it’s perhaps recency bias but I do think Trap showed a very strong, very solid PvT for a pretty damn long time. Stylistically I quite liked it too. PvZ you probably have the worst pool of candidates in terms of matchup specialists in any matchup in the game, it’s tough to think of anyone who truly excelled in it for any kind of elongated period PvZ is hard for sure. I'd say Stats is up there for sure, but Parting with the soul train is more memorable for me. So I'd probably go with Parting | ||
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Drahkn
199 Posts
On March 20 2024 03:30 TentativePanda wrote: Serral Match Winning % against Korean Players Lifetime: 69.23% Since 2023-01-01: 85.71% Maru Match Winning % against Korean Players Lifetime: 66.97% Since 2023-01-01: 80.41% Serral Winning % Against Maru : 67.24% in games 77.78% in matches -- complete domination You're telling me the GSL effect is strong enough to explain this significant of a disparity in winning percentages? And not the entire GSL effect (korean players are better than foreigners on average, true), but the effect of location and timing of matches ALONE? In fact, these percentages hold when you stratify by online/offline AND it must be said that the Korean players Serral faces are generally better than the ones Maru faces because Serral plays the top koreans who make it to season finals etc, while Maru will play koreans who do not qualify. There is more data you have to take into consideration then pure win% stats , it does not tell the whole story | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On March 20 2024 04:38 tigera6 wrote: I mean Terran just doesnt do well in ST format, not sure why. I think Maru is the only Terran winner in its entire history. And if you value ST as much as a code S, then we need to rewrite the ranking because tons of Protoss and Zerg won that tournament but couldnt snip the code S achievement, mainly Trap. To me, its a damn shame to have a direct elimination bracket in a near 100k event. Just general note about 'GSL', what all it 'officially' consists, not particularly commenting ST. There are legions of people all around that to this very day think Serral never went to or competed in Korean soil. That argument is intrinsically false, but it stems from false equation of GSL = Code S. Serral's offline GSL resume on Korean soil is: 2 Premier wins 60000000 Wons 8 Matches (6 Bo5, 2 Bo7) with 100% win rate in Matches, and 74.3% (26-9) in Maps (73.1% (19-7) vs Koreans), "without preparation during weekender" as they readily say and point out when they even remember. On March 20 2024 04:45 JJH777 wrote: Literally vote-ins for half the player pool, half the player pool required to be non-korean, no prep time, no qualifiers. GSL vs the World is not equivalent to a Code S. Yeah. Nature of the tournament. "Bests" of locked regions compete, you know, The GSL vs The World. | ||
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Nasigil
137 Posts
On March 20 2024 04:47 Moonerz wrote: PvZ is hard for sure. I'd say Stats is up there for sure, but Parting with the soul train is more memorable for me. So I'd probably go with Parting Soul Train was only working for like a year? Even with that Parting's PvZ numbers are just above average. Stats won all 5 of his premier championships by slaying Zergs (Dark 3 times, soO once and Solar once) in the finals. He's definitely the PvZ GOAT. | ||
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
God damnit, my photo is still being used on this site. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1559 Posts
The amount of player pool & competition is just a vastly different landscape than from before; previously, a lot of progamers were considered "past-it" when they were approaching mid-late 20s really just due to sheer difference in amount of injuries/mechanical skill from newer fresher players. Nowadays, it has really been same pool of players from previous years competing; The situation is really close to BW really. You have old greats coming in that are aging and performing at higher level than before, but in BW, achievements post-proleague era isn't really considered much at all. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On March 20 2024 02:06 Mizenhauer wrote: Once you get past the top 30 or so, you're basically ranking anyone who has won a WC/Season of Code S regardless of what the rest of their career looks like. J-god #31 in my heart. | ||
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