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On March 20 2024 14:04 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 13:36 UnLarva wrote:
The GSL vs The World maybe bad example for weekender. 2018 it is easy to think that certain level of complacency may have played a part in Korean players' underperformance, when 'The World' was hosted on the home ground.
'Foreign killer' was killed.
However, 2019 was even worse from them. That bad, I suspect the whole tournament format was dropped out from schedule was at least partly because of abysmal 'The GSL' performance. Hard to justify sponsor money if Korean heroes are raggdolled by foreigners fully foreigning. 'Op Zerg' balance argument doesn't work particularly well here either as - you know - there were still rather high profile Korean Zergs participating in these events.
These two events, that do not count, btw, give a good time frame for the rise of Foreign scene. Neeb was there, TIME, Reynor, Elazer, Scarlett... Spearheaded by Serral. And when Korean Zergs failed to make much, Top Korean Protosses hold the flag highest against foreign usurpers.
This is also the time when Korean Elitist narrative 'preparation > weekender' was born in it's modern sense, and when 'GSL' started to mean only Code S.
All in all, from Serral's perspective these tourneys where rather lucrative economically: tourist visa, few days in a hotel without much preparation time while suffering jet lag, and 7.5 million wons per match winnings. You’re countering arguments that are very rarely made. GSL has been shorthand for Code S for absolutely forever, people didn’t change their definition just to deny Serral credit for GSL versus the world or whatever you’re angling. There was a bit of initial confusion with changing formats, and a Super Tournament or two that was quite different but debate raged if it should be classed as a Code S or not. But aside from those first few years it’s been pretty stable definitionally. Again, ‘Korean elitists’ have forever valued the prep format highly, I imagine in part because Brood War Starleagues as well as Proleague had a big prep component. People were saying that Taeja who, last I checked is Korean was overrated well over a decade ago because he couldn’t show his weekender form in Code S. It’s a gap in Serral’s resume, personally not one large enough for me to stick him at #1, but people by and large haven’t pulled this out of thin air all of a sudden just to try and deny his greatness.
Great point on Taeja, I remember those days. People calling him overrated due to not haveing the same success in GSL.
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On March 20 2024 22:08 allmotor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. Great post. You can't be the GOAT when you lose tons of mirrors and some of them 0-4. Not a balance whine, but everybody knows Z has been OP since LOTV. Serral is GREAT, he's truly a phenom, but he's been thriving since LOTV in an era where not just him but tons of other zergs have just dominated.
Hate to break it to you
but Serral's ZvZ win rate is higher than Maru's TvT, and historically ZvZ has always been the far more volatile mirror matchup than TvT
Only Dark has 4-0 Serral once, Rogue hasn't. Serral holds a winning h2h record against both Dark and Rogue.
Serral earned all his World Champions titles by going through the other best Zerg peers at the time (3-0 Dark and 3-1 Rogue in 2018, 3-0 Rogue and 4-3 Reynor in 2022, 3-1 Dark in 2024). Meanwhile Maru lost 1-4 to fucking Oliveira in the finals
The excuses you guys came up with to prop up Maru and discredit Serral is getting lamer and lamer each day.
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United States1804 Posts
On March 20 2024 23:06 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 22:08 allmotor1 wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. Great post. You can't be the GOAT when you lose tons of mirrors and some of them 0-4. Not a balance whine, but everybody knows Z has been OP since LOTV. Serral is GREAT, he's truly a phenom, but he's been thriving since LOTV in an era where not just him but tons of other zergs have just dominated. Hate to break it to you but Serral's ZvZ win rate is higher than Maru's TvT, and historically ZvZ has always been the far more volatile mirror matchup than TvT Only Dark has 4-0 Serral once, Rogue hasn't. Serral holds a winning h2h record against both Dark and Rogue. Serral earned all his World Champions titles by going through the other best Zerg peers at the time (3-0 Dark and 3-1 Rogue in 2018, 3-0 Rogue and 4-3 Reynor in 2022, 3-1 Dark in 2024). Meanwhile Maru lost 1-4 to fucking Oliveira in the finals The excuses you guys came up with to prop up Maru and discredit Serral is getting lamer and lamer each day.
Not taking a side with this, but Serral lost to Ragnarok in the Ro8 in that tournament. Maru was the one that got embarrassed in the finals, but he walked away with 50k more than Serral did.
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On March 20 2024 23:06 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 22:08 allmotor1 wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. Great post. You can't be the GOAT when you lose tons of mirrors and some of them 0-4. Not a balance whine, but everybody knows Z has been OP since LOTV. Serral is GREAT, he's truly a phenom, but he's been thriving since LOTV in an era where not just him but tons of other zergs have just dominated. Hate to break it to you but Serral's ZvZ win rate is higher than Maru's TvT, and historically ZvZ has always been the far more volatile mirror matchup than TvT Only Dark has 4-0 Serral once, Rogue hasn't. Serral holds a winning h2h record against both Dark and Rogue. Serral earned all his World Champions titles by going through the other best Zerg peers at the time (3-0 Dark and 3-1 Rogue in 2018, 3-0 Rogue and 4-3 Reynor in 2022, 3-1 Dark in 2024). Meanwhile Maru lost 1-4 to fucking Oliveira in the finals The excuses you guys came up with to prop up Maru and discredit Serral is getting lamer and lamer each day.
Not an excuse at all. Maru has never been known to be weaker in TVT through his career since 2011? Serral's weakest matchup by far is definitely mirror. There have been stretches as I recall where Serral would lose mirror after mirror, I think it was Reynor for quite a stretch.
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On March 20 2024 23:10 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 23:06 Nasigil wrote:On March 20 2024 22:08 allmotor1 wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. Great post. You can't be the GOAT when you lose tons of mirrors and some of them 0-4. Not a balance whine, but everybody knows Z has been OP since LOTV. Serral is GREAT, he's truly a phenom, but he's been thriving since LOTV in an era where not just him but tons of other zergs have just dominated. Hate to break it to you but Serral's ZvZ win rate is higher than Maru's TvT, and historically ZvZ has always been the far more volatile mirror matchup than TvT Only Dark has 4-0 Serral once, Rogue hasn't. Serral holds a winning h2h record against both Dark and Rogue. Serral earned all his World Champions titles by going through the other best Zerg peers at the time (3-0 Dark and 3-1 Rogue in 2018, 3-0 Rogue and 4-3 Reynor in 2022, 3-1 Dark in 2024). Meanwhile Maru lost 1-4 to fucking Oliveira in the finals The excuses you guys came up with to prop up Maru and discredit Serral is getting lamer and lamer each day. Not taking a side with this, but Serral lost to Ragnarok in the Ro8 in that tournament. Maru was the one that got embarrassed in the finals, but he walked away with 50k more than Serral did.
yes the famous series filled with roach pushes off of 30 drones when serral had 54 drones and there was a lot of debate on wether or not he left too early.
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On March 20 2024 23:10 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 23:06 Nasigil wrote:On March 20 2024 22:08 allmotor1 wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. Great post. You can't be the GOAT when you lose tons of mirrors and some of them 0-4. Not a balance whine, but everybody knows Z has been OP since LOTV. Serral is GREAT, he's truly a phenom, but he's been thriving since LOTV in an era where not just him but tons of other zergs have just dominated. Hate to break it to you but Serral's ZvZ win rate is higher than Maru's TvT, and historically ZvZ has always been the far more volatile mirror matchup than TvT Only Dark has 4-0 Serral once, Rogue hasn't. Serral holds a winning h2h record against both Dark and Rogue. Serral earned all his World Champions titles by going through the other best Zerg peers at the time (3-0 Dark and 3-1 Rogue in 2018, 3-0 Rogue and 4-3 Reynor in 2022, 3-1 Dark in 2024). Meanwhile Maru lost 1-4 to fucking Oliveira in the finals The excuses you guys came up with to prop up Maru and discredit Serral is getting lamer and lamer each day. Not taking a side with this, but Serral lost to Ragnarok in the Ro8 in that tournament. Maru was the one that got embarrassed in the finals, but he walked away with 50k more than Serral did.
How easy to focus on one tournament where Maru did better than Serral and ignore three (or 10 more?) others that Serral did better.
Serral fans will be happy admit that Ragnarok series was a blunder. Because he had enough mirror matchup success on the biggest stages to prove that one series is a more of a fluke than anything. Maru doesn't have such luxury.
But to be fair, I do recognize Maru as one of the greatest TvT players ever. The intention of that reply is to showing how hilarious the argument of "Serral can't be GOAT because he lost 0-4 to Dark once in his career" is.
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On March 20 2024 23:18 allmotor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 23:06 Nasigil wrote:On March 20 2024 22:08 allmotor1 wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. Great post. You can't be the GOAT when you lose tons of mirrors and some of them 0-4. Not a balance whine, but everybody knows Z has been OP since LOTV. Serral is GREAT, he's truly a phenom, but he's been thriving since LOTV in an era where not just him but tons of other zergs have just dominated. Hate to break it to you but Serral's ZvZ win rate is higher than Maru's TvT, and historically ZvZ has always been the far more volatile mirror matchup than TvT Only Dark has 4-0 Serral once, Rogue hasn't. Serral holds a winning h2h record against both Dark and Rogue. Serral earned all his World Champions titles by going through the other best Zerg peers at the time (3-0 Dark and 3-1 Rogue in 2018, 3-0 Rogue and 4-3 Reynor in 2022, 3-1 Dark in 2024). Meanwhile Maru lost 1-4 to fucking Oliveira in the finals The excuses you guys came up with to prop up Maru and discredit Serral is getting lamer and lamer each day. Not an excuse at all. Maru has never been known to be weaker in TVT through his career since 2011? Serral's weakest matchup by far is definitely mirror. There have been stretches as I recall where Serral would lose mirror after mirror, I think it was Reynor for quite a stretch.
there was a small time period where reynor going muta ling gave serral some trouble but it was conceptual. It wasn't clear yet what was the best way to play against that, once it was figured out, that problem disappeared quick.
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On March 20 2024 23:24 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 23:18 allmotor1 wrote:On March 20 2024 23:06 Nasigil wrote:On March 20 2024 22:08 allmotor1 wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. Great post. You can't be the GOAT when you lose tons of mirrors and some of them 0-4. Not a balance whine, but everybody knows Z has been OP since LOTV. Serral is GREAT, he's truly a phenom, but he's been thriving since LOTV in an era where not just him but tons of other zergs have just dominated. Hate to break it to you but Serral's ZvZ win rate is higher than Maru's TvT, and historically ZvZ has always been the far more volatile mirror matchup than TvT Only Dark has 4-0 Serral once, Rogue hasn't. Serral holds a winning h2h record against both Dark and Rogue. Serral earned all his World Champions titles by going through the other best Zerg peers at the time (3-0 Dark and 3-1 Rogue in 2018, 3-0 Rogue and 4-3 Reynor in 2022, 3-1 Dark in 2024). Meanwhile Maru lost 1-4 to fucking Oliveira in the finals The excuses you guys came up with to prop up Maru and discredit Serral is getting lamer and lamer each day. Not an excuse at all. Maru has never been known to be weaker in TVT through his career since 2011? Serral's weakest matchup by far is definitely mirror. There have been stretches as I recall where Serral would lose mirror after mirror, I think it was Reynor for quite a stretch. there was a small time period where reynor going muta ling gave serral some trouble but it was conceptual. It wasn't clear yet what was the best way to play against that, once it was figured out, that problem disappeared quick.
I don't recall all the games, but I remember the muta issue for Serral was primarily from Dark no?
The series where Reynor was beating him for a stretch from my memory wasn't as muta focused. I could be wrong though.
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On March 20 2024 23:06 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 22:08 allmotor1 wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. Great post. You can't be the GOAT when you lose tons of mirrors and some of them 0-4. Not a balance whine, but everybody knows Z has been OP since LOTV. Serral is GREAT, he's truly a phenom, but he's been thriving since LOTV in an era where not just him but tons of other zergs have just dominated. Hate to break it to you but Serral's ZvZ win rate is higher than Maru's TvT, and historically ZvZ has always been the far more volatile mirror matchup than TvT Only Dark has 4-0 Serral once, Rogue hasn't. Serral holds a winning h2h record against both Dark and Rogue. Serral earned all his World Champions titles by going through the other best Zerg peers at the time (3-0 Dark and 3-1 Rogue in 2018, 3-0 Rogue and 4-3 Reynor in 2022, 3-1 Dark in 2024). Meanwhile Maru lost 1-4 to fucking Oliveira in the finals The excuses you guys came up with to prop up Maru and discredit Serral is getting lamer and lamer each day.
Reynor also beat Serral 4:0 in 2022 KOB3.
Rogue vs. Serral is very close to 50/50 - Rogue actually had an advantage through '21. It was only 2022 when Rogue was phasing into retirement that Serral turned it around.
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On March 20 2024 23:18 allmotor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 23:06 Nasigil wrote:On March 20 2024 22:08 allmotor1 wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. Great post. You can't be the GOAT when you lose tons of mirrors and some of them 0-4. Not a balance whine, but everybody knows Z has been OP since LOTV. Serral is GREAT, he's truly a phenom, but he's been thriving since LOTV in an era where not just him but tons of other zergs have just dominated. Hate to break it to you but Serral's ZvZ win rate is higher than Maru's TvT, and historically ZvZ has always been the far more volatile mirror matchup than TvT Only Dark has 4-0 Serral once, Rogue hasn't. Serral holds a winning h2h record against both Dark and Rogue. Serral earned all his World Champions titles by going through the other best Zerg peers at the time (3-0 Dark and 3-1 Rogue in 2018, 3-0 Rogue and 4-3 Reynor in 2022, 3-1 Dark in 2024). Meanwhile Maru lost 1-4 to fucking Oliveira in the finals The excuses you guys came up with to prop up Maru and discredit Serral is getting lamer and lamer each day. Not an excuse at all. Maru has never been known to be weaker in TVT through his career since 2011? Serral's weakest matchup by far is definitely mirror. There have been stretches as I recall where Serral would lose mirror after mirror, I think it was Reynor for quite a stretch.
See, this is the danger of relying on impression instead of statistics for these kind of discussion. Your brain will always remember the parts where it fits your narrative better than others.
Do you know that both Innovation and TY holds a winning h2h record against Maru in their career? Do you remember for the span of three years from 2017 to 2019, TY and Inno had a combined 10-1 series record against Maru? Obviously you don't.
Meanwhile, Reynor's best year against Serral was in 2020, where he 6-4 Serral in series. Every other year he lost to Serral overall and he only has a 35% h2h career record against Serral.
The reason you will remember Serral's ZvZ as some kind of "weakness" is because he's almost invincible in ZvT and ZvP, therefore making his 78% mirror match win rate somehow feels like a weakness in comparison. But it's still better than any other Zerg's ZvZ other than perhaps soO in his prime.
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On March 20 2024 14:04 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 13:36 UnLarva wrote:
The GSL vs The World maybe bad example for weekender. 2018 it is easy to think that certain level of complacency may have played a part in Korean players' underperformance, when 'The World' was hosted on the home ground.
'Foreign killer' was killed.
However, 2019 was even worse from them. That bad, I suspect the whole tournament format was dropped out from schedule was at least partly because of abysmal 'The GSL' performance. Hard to justify sponsor money if Korean heroes are raggdolled by foreigners fully foreigning. 'Op Zerg' balance argument doesn't work particularly well here either as - you know - there were still rather high profile Korean Zergs participating in these events.
These two events, that do not count, btw, give a good time frame for the rise of Foreign scene. Neeb was there, TIME, Reynor, Elazer, Scarlett... Spearheaded by Serral. And when Korean Zergs failed to make much, Top Korean Protosses hold the flag highest against foreign usurpers.
This is also the time when Korean Elitist narrative 'preparation > weekender' was born in it's modern sense, and when 'GSL' started to mean only Code S.
All in all, from Serral's perspective these tourneys where rather lucrative economically: tourist visa, few days in a hotel without much preparation time while suffering jet lag, and 7.5 million wons per match winnings. You’re countering arguments that are very rarely made. GSL has been shorthand for Code S for absolutely forever, people didn’t change their definition just to deny Serral credit for GSL versus the world or whatever you’re angling. There was a bit of initial confusion with changing formats, and a Super Tournament or two that was quite different but debate raged if it should be classed as a Code S or not. But aside from those first few years it’s been pretty stable definitionally. Again, ‘Korean elitists’ have forever valued the prep format highly, I imagine in part because Brood War Starleagues as well as Proleague had a big prep component. People were saying that Taeja who, last I checked is Korean was overrated well over a decade ago because he couldn’t show his weekender form in Code S. It’s a gap in Serral’s resume, personally not one large enough for me to stick him at #1, but people by and large haven’t pulled this out of thin air all of a sudden just to try and deny his greatness.
My "thin air" is that why perpetual "weekender form" should be considered somehow bad thing? Why It is possible to Serral to prolong his unprepared weekend to years long domination, when guys who should know better by their merits, cannot? Pattern became visible already during that GSL weekender 2018, and what is also clear Serral was the one who prepared best then, and ever since on average has been the guy who prepared the most. Ironically his biggest hurdles soon became in preparation against Reynor and Clem, not for his Korean peers.
Better half of StarCraft 2 history was one long process of preparation for a match against a Korean Overlord for a top Foreigner.
I do not deny Maru's or any other's greatness, I just defend the greatness of Serral (and Dark!!! o7) against bullshit conceptions. And, you can counter arguments well before they even emerge as standardized mantras, and formalized factoids, something that seems to be a norm at these parts.
A Korean Elite player should always manhandle easily a foreigner in a weekender match, that's the basal assumption because of immeasurably hard and arcane Korean art of preparation of otherworldly and all-encompassing and all-embracing GSL Code S - format (of yesteryears by now), and clearly the reality doesn't fit to that assumption very well, not at least after Serral's strongly demonstrated practical objections.
Thin in air.
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Northern Ireland24279 Posts
On March 20 2024 23:23 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 23:10 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 20 2024 23:06 Nasigil wrote:On March 20 2024 22:08 allmotor1 wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. Great post. You can't be the GOAT when you lose tons of mirrors and some of them 0-4. Not a balance whine, but everybody knows Z has been OP since LOTV. Serral is GREAT, he's truly a phenom, but he's been thriving since LOTV in an era where not just him but tons of other zergs have just dominated. Hate to break it to you but Serral's ZvZ win rate is higher than Maru's TvT, and historically ZvZ has always been the far more volatile mirror matchup than TvT Only Dark has 4-0 Serral once, Rogue hasn't. Serral holds a winning h2h record against both Dark and Rogue. Serral earned all his World Champions titles by going through the other best Zerg peers at the time (3-0 Dark and 3-1 Rogue in 2018, 3-0 Rogue and 4-3 Reynor in 2022, 3-1 Dark in 2024). Meanwhile Maru lost 1-4 to fucking Oliveira in the finals The excuses you guys came up with to prop up Maru and discredit Serral is getting lamer and lamer each day. Not taking a side with this, but Serral lost to Ragnarok in the Ro8 in that tournament. Maru was the one that got embarrassed in the finals, but he walked away with 50k more than Serral did. How easy to focus on one tournament where Maru did better than Serral and ignore three (or 10 more?) others that Serral did better. Serral fans will be happy admit that Ragnarok series was a blunder. Because he had enough mirror matchup success on the biggest stages to prove that one series is a more of a fluke than anything. Maru doesn't have such luxury. But to be fair, I do recognize Maru as one of the greatest TvT players ever. The intention of that reply is to showing how hilarious the argument of "Serral can't be GOAT because he lost 0-4 to Dark once in his career" is.
Serral has a 100% match win rate against Rogue in offline matches, including a Katowice Ro4 and a Blizzcon Ro4. But yeah overall they’re pushing basically 50/50
He’s got a 65% win rate against both Reynor and Dark overall. Higher than I expected actually, especially the former so I’m glad I checked! Felt they were kind of trading pretty evenly these last few years.
For comparison Maru is a dead 50/50 against TY, and at a 47.83% against Innovation.
Not a direct equivalence but I feel it’s instructive to do a mirror comparison between Serral and the ‘Big 4’ and Maru and the other great Terrans of the more recent past.
So yeah Zerg have been strong but he’s still coming out on top in mirrors against his peers in general. And minus the odd wax and wane in fortunes and ability he’s been stronger overall in vT/vP as well.
I think there’s some obvious truth to the scene having a bit less depth, so Serral’s raw win rates maybe weren’t doable in the peak days of Kespa, that’s fair enough. But it’s a difficult argument to invoke in favour of Maru or Rogue given they also made a lot of hay in the same span Serral became a championship calibre player.
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On March 16 2024 09:04 Branch.AUT wrote:
How do you even put maru at #1 after he got SMASHED 4-0 by serral, with 250k on the line? Like how can you think he is better?
Is it because he won the Global Starvation League so many times, when all other players were done competeing there???
thats just 1 tournament.
serral is in better shape now, but this is about a career.
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I seriously wonder how much ratios had to be distorted to come up with this conclusion.
While I was lying sick in bed, I was bored and took my time to analyze StarCraft2 data. I made some excel sheets, typed in the numbers and what I saw was absolutely insane at times. So here I share the statistics I found and hope you enjoy this little summary I wrote, after the GOAT debate was settled - at least for me 
- There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved (MVP being the other).
- There is a player who has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant.
- There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others)
- There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins - 12th of May 2018 till 6th of October 2018)
- There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019)
- There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved (The closest is Maru with 76% also in 2023)
- There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans, which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023).
- There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other players being Maru with 78% in 2023, Serral with 76,76% in 2019 and herO with 74% in 2017.
- There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25)
- There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved
Here are these player’s records against the top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws):
vs Maru: 13:4:2
vs Dark: 8:5:1
vs GuMiho: 10:4:0
vs Solar: 16:7:1
vs Cure: 17:3:0
vs ByuN: 12:5:0
vs Classic: 8:2:0
vs Bunny: 9:2:0
vs stats: 9:4:0
vs soO: 8:4:0
vs Innovation: 16:8:0
vs Rogue: 8:6:0
vs Trap: 14:3:0
vs Zest: 10:5:0
And here the records vs some top world players :
vs Reynor: 31:16:0
vs MaxPax: 18:4:0
vs Heromarine: 26:4:0
That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer.
That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else.
Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates.
To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He most definitely is the SC GOAT though.
To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win.
The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements.
It took Maru 11 years from 2012 to 2023 to amass 15 Premier Tournament wins in tournaments with top Korean participation. Serral managed to win 16 in 6 years, while Maru had more chances to do so as GSL is 3 times a year AND he was present in nearly all tournaments that Serral was in.
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds.
Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats.
BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players.
To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL, I have to reply “So what”?
He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above).
Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent for the aforementioned reasons.
Plus, Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. He is able to beat these players and he has done so on Korean soil without being Korean. So if all people have to offer is: “Meh, GSL” it simply seems like a last straw to hold on to.
That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world when they won the Champions League, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. This argument makes no sense at all.
All this is not even taking into account that out of the last 6 years, the world champion only came out of Korea 2 times. Meaning yes, Korea still has the broadest and best player base, but at the top, there are several other players from around the world who are able to show them their limits.
Serral is also probably the best player to prepare for his opponents as Katowice 2024 has shown yet again. Does anybody in their right mind think that such a format would be worse for Serral?
Plus, one has to keep in mind that Serral did all this without TeamHouses or the Korean infrastructure which was way beyond anything that is even present nowadays in Europe.
Anyways, these are my thoughts.
Share statistics, if you disagree
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On March 21 2024 01:07 PremoBeats wrote:I seriously wonder how much ratios had to be distorted to come up with this conclusion. While I was lying sick in bed, I was bored and took my time to analyze StarCraft2 data. I made some excel sheets, typed in the numbers and what I saw was absolutely insane at times. So here I share the statistics I found and hope you enjoy this little summary I wrote, after the GOAT debate was settled - at least for me - There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved (MVP being the other). - There is a player who has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant. - There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins - 12th of May 2018 till 6th of October 2018) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved (The closest is Maru with 76% also in 2023) - There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans, which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023). - There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other players being Maru with 78% in 2023, Serral with 76,76% in 2019 and herO with 74% in 2017. - There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25) - There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved Here are these player’s records against the top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws): vs Maru: 13:4:2 vs Dark: 8:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 And here the records vs some top world players : vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer. That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else. Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates. To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He most definitely is the SC GOAT though. To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win. The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements. To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance. Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds. Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats. BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players. To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL, I have to reply “So what”? He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above). Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent for the aforementioned reasons. Plus, Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. He is able to beat these players and he has done so on Korean soil without being Korean. So if all people have to offer is: “Meh, GSL” it simply seems like a last straw to hold on to. That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world when they won the Champions League, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. This argument makes no sense at all. All this is not even taking into account that out of the last 6 years, the world champion only came out of Korea 2 times. Meaning yes, Korea still has the broadest and best player base, but at the top, there are several other players from around the world who are able to show them their limits. Serral is also probably the best player to prepare for his opponents as Katowice 2024 has shown yet again. Does anybody in their right mind think that such a format would be worse for Serral? Plus, one has to keep in mind that Serral did all this without TeamHouses or the Korean infrastructure which was way beyond anything that is even present nowadays in Europe. Anyways, these are my thoughts. Share statistics, if you disagree
"Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean?"
To the KR prep elitists, yes.
Also, great post but i think i read this somewhere by another TL user. Did you steal their post or something?
Also, looking at the poll someone started a few pages ago, seems like the votes are in favor of Serral 2:1 so maybe the majority of TL actually agrees with Serral as #1 but it just looks more disputed going by the comments
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Northern Ireland24279 Posts
On March 21 2024 01:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2024 01:07 PremoBeats wrote:I seriously wonder how much ratios had to be distorted to come up with this conclusion. While I was lying sick in bed, I was bored and took my time to analyze StarCraft2 data. I made some excel sheets, typed in the numbers and what I saw was absolutely insane at times. So here I share the statistics I found and hope you enjoy this little summary I wrote, after the GOAT debate was settled - at least for me - There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved (MVP being the other). - There is a player who has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant. - There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins - 12th of May 2018 till 6th of October 2018) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved (The closest is Maru with 76% also in 2023) - There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans, which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023). - There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other players being Maru with 78% in 2023, Serral with 76,76% in 2019 and herO with 74% in 2017. - There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25) - There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved Here are these player’s records against the top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws): vs Maru: 13:4:2 vs Dark: 8:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 And here the records vs some top world players : vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer. That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else. Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates. To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He most definitely is the SC GOAT though. To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win. The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements. To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance. Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds. Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats. BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players. To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL, I have to reply “So what”? He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above). Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent for the aforementioned reasons. Plus, Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. He is able to beat these players and he has done so on Korean soil without being Korean. So if all people have to offer is: “Meh, GSL” it simply seems like a last straw to hold on to. That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world when they won the Champions League, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. This argument makes no sense at all. All this is not even taking into account that out of the last 6 years, the world champion only came out of Korea 2 times. Meaning yes, Korea still has the broadest and best player base, but at the top, there are several other players from around the world who are able to show them their limits. Serral is also probably the best player to prepare for his opponents as Katowice 2024 has shown yet again. Does anybody in their right mind think that such a format would be worse for Serral? Plus, one has to keep in mind that Serral did all this without TeamHouses or the Korean infrastructure which was way beyond anything that is even present nowadays in Europe. Anyways, these are my thoughts. Share statistics, if you disagree "Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean?" To the KR prep elitists, yes. Also, great post but i think i read this somewhere by another TL user. Did you steal their post or something? Also, looking at the poll someone started a few pages ago, seems like the votes are in favor of Serral 2:1 so maybe the majority of TL actually agrees with Serral as #1 but it just looks more disputed going by the comments
It’s their own post made in different threads.
And ‘fair fucks’ as we say over here, they put in the groundwork for it!
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United States1804 Posts
On March 21 2024 01:07 PremoBeats wrote:
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
My favorite posts are the factually incorrect ones.
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On March 21 2024 01:27 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2024 01:07 PremoBeats wrote:
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
My favorite posts are the factually incorrect ones.
That explains a lot
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United States1804 Posts
On March 21 2024 01:18 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2024 01:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 21 2024 01:07 PremoBeats wrote:I seriously wonder how much ratios had to be distorted to come up with this conclusion. While I was lying sick in bed, I was bored and took my time to analyze StarCraft2 data. I made some excel sheets, typed in the numbers and what I saw was absolutely insane at times. So here I share the statistics I found and hope you enjoy this little summary I wrote, after the GOAT debate was settled - at least for me - There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved (MVP being the other). - There is a player who has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant. - There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins - 12th of May 2018 till 6th of October 2018) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved (The closest is Maru with 76% also in 2023) - There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans, which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023). - There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other players being Maru with 78% in 2023, Serral with 76,76% in 2019 and herO with 74% in 2017. - There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25) - There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved Here are these player’s records against the top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws): vs Maru: 13:4:2 vs Dark: 8:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 And here the records vs some top world players : vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer. That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else. Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates. To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He most definitely is the SC GOAT though. To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win. The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements. To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance. Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds. Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats. BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players. To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL, I have to reply “So what”? He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above). Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent for the aforementioned reasons. Plus, Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. He is able to beat these players and he has done so on Korean soil without being Korean. So if all people have to offer is: “Meh, GSL” it simply seems like a last straw to hold on to. That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world when they won the Champions League, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. This argument makes no sense at all. All this is not even taking into account that out of the last 6 years, the world champion only came out of Korea 2 times. Meaning yes, Korea still has the broadest and best player base, but at the top, there are several other players from around the world who are able to show them their limits. Serral is also probably the best player to prepare for his opponents as Katowice 2024 has shown yet again. Does anybody in their right mind think that such a format would be worse for Serral? Plus, one has to keep in mind that Serral did all this without TeamHouses or the Korean infrastructure which was way beyond anything that is even present nowadays in Europe. Anyways, these are my thoughts. Share statistics, if you disagree "Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean?" To the KR prep elitists, yes. Also, great post but i think i read this somewhere by another TL user. Did you steal their post or something? Also, looking at the poll someone started a few pages ago, seems like the votes are in favor of Serral 2:1 so maybe the majority of TL actually agrees with Serral as #1 but it just looks more disputed going by the comments It’s their own post made in different threads. And ‘fair fucks’ as we say over here, they put in the groundwork for it!
You do realize you can look all this up in 15 minutes on aligulac right?
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United States1804 Posts
On March 21 2024 01:32 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2024 01:27 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 21 2024 01:07 PremoBeats wrote:
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
My favorite posts are the factually incorrect ones. That explains a lot
Too bad I have an editor so I can't get away with them like an average forum poster. It would make life so much more fun.
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EPT
