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Northern Ireland24913 Posts
On March 20 2024 04:11 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 03:11 WombaT wrote:On March 20 2024 02:47 Nasigil wrote:
Some other GOAT discussion ideas instead of hanging up on Serral vs Maru all day.
Who's the GOAT for each specific matchup?
What's the GOAT map that yields the most interesting and epic games?
What was the most dominant half year stretch by any player?
etc ZvP Serral and PvP Zest are the relatively easy ones, IMO anyway. TvZ I think Inno or Maru at various times are the clear favourites. TvP is almost certainly Maru and TvT you’ve got a few good claims PvNonP is really hard though. It feels Protoss has periods of flux and change and players wax and wane in vT and vZ depending on metas. Most of the top Protoss names are all kinda decent at all matchups overall without being considerably better at one over a career’s length. herO’s PvZ currently is clearly above his PvT, but he’s had times where the latter is stronger. PvT it’s perhaps recency bias but I do think Trap showed a very strong, very solid PvT for a pretty damn long time. Stylistically I quite liked it too. PvZ you probably have the worst pool of candidates in terms of matchup specialists in any matchup in the game, it’s tough to think of anyone who truly excelled in it for any kind of elongated period You can't forget PartinG's PvT. His overall career didn't reach as high as other great Protoss like Zest/Stats/Classic/Trap/herO but his PvT numbers over the years are pretty crazy. Dude has an insane 10 year run from 2012 to 2022 in which he had 70% series PvT winrate against Korean Terran players. Other top Protoss can barely put together this number for one year stretch but PartinG did it on a 10 year span.
That’s higher than I would have thought, when he initially broke out I really loved his PvT style too. Not a bad shout there
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On March 19 2024 20:23 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Rather than overfitting to Miz's list just because he's been the only one so far with the passion and dedication to write a small master's thesis worth of content, I'd be honestly curious to see everyone's top 10 list, with or without justifications. After all, tons of people here have been watching SC2 and Broodwar since early days (myself included, although I have been off more than on  ). Everyone has a list and we have some of the world's best SC2 history experts on this forum. It would be very interesting to see !
1. Serral
2. Maru
3. Rogue
4. INnoVation
5. Dark
6. Zest
7. TY
8. sOs
9. soO
10. TaeJa (fight me!)
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I don't understand why good performace in code S and team league is taken to be evidence for being good at prepping in Maru's case. Surely there's a lot of team effort. Especially considering Maru's two teammates Rogue and sOs are probably the best players at prepping for weekenders. I suspect they must have played a significant part in Maru's performance in Code S and teamleague. At weekenders, Maru doesn't get such help, therefore performs worse and we see more tilt, bad builds and upsets from him.
On the other hand, there was a clip in this year's IEM in which Reynor and Rotti discuss how Serral watches and remembers every replay. Weekenders, like GSL, can be prepped for and Serral is good at it. I can't imagine such a player would do worse when he gets even more time to prep in GSLs.
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Considering Maru's record in preparation tournaments it's clear that he was also prepping for his teammates Rogue and sOs.
See how silly that is? Imo it's best not to let in hypotheticals or alternate realities when we try and decide who's the GOAT and just look at their career in and of itself.
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On March 19 2024 03:43 _TakeR_ wrote:
Interesting that actually winning the most world championships and by far the most premier events, and having the most dominant win record and head-to-head stats vs every player overall, isn't actually enough to be the greatest.
Also the reasoning that accomplishing far more than others have managed, and doing it in LESS time time than the others managed to achieve their more meagre accomplishments, is counted as a black mark against Serral is... also interesting. If only Serral had accomplished all of his superior achievements over a 12 year period rather than just a 7 year one, THEN his uncontestable combined world championships and premier events tally could actually be counted and finally he could be annointed as the true GOAT. Sad.
I will admit Maru has been in the scene longer, and thus 'wins' according to the singular rationale of the article writer.
I will also admit that Maru is definitely the best at winning regional tournaments where Serral is not eligible to participate.
I believe those are the only two metrics where Maru actually beats Serral, and so on that basis, all hail Maru the GOAT!
10/10 post
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On March 20 2024 08:46 ktll4c91 wrote:
I don't understand why good performace in code S and team league is taken to be evidence for being good at prepping in Maru's case. Surely there's a lot of team effort. Especially considering Maru's two teammates Rogue and sOs are probably the best players at prepping for weekenders. I suspect they must have played a significant part in Maru's performance in Code S and teamleague. At weekenders, Maru doesn't get such help, therefore performs worse and we see more tilt, bad builds and upsets from him.
On the other hand, there was a clip in this year's IEM in which Reynor and Rotti discuss how Serral watches and remembers every replay. Weekenders, like GSL, can be prepped for and Serral is good at it. I can't imagine such a player would do worse when he gets even more time to prep in GSLs.
There are definitely players who were much better in weekenders than prep tournaments. sOs and TaeJa are prime examples. Being good at one does not guarantee being good at the other.
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On March 20 2024 09:32 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 08:46 ktll4c91 wrote:
I don't understand why good performace in code S and team league is taken to be evidence for being good at prepping in Maru's case. Surely there's a lot of team effort. Especially considering Maru's two teammates Rogue and sOs are probably the best players at prepping for weekenders. I suspect they must have played a significant part in Maru's performance in Code S and teamleague. At weekenders, Maru doesn't get such help, therefore performs worse and we see more tilt, bad builds and upsets from him.
On the other hand, there was a clip in this year's IEM in which Reynor and Rotti discuss how Serral watches and remembers every replay. Weekenders, like GSL, can be prepped for and Serral is good at it. I can't imagine such a player would do worse when he gets even more time to prep in GSLs. There are definitely players who were much better in weekenders than prep tournaments. sOs and TaeJa are prime examples. Being good at one does not guarantee being good at the other.
This is the biggest copium of all time, Serral played many matches that were set in stage way before they were actually played, such as sOs and Zest on Blizzcon groups, also... for the past 6 years he has been the favourite to every tournament he enteers, are people really not preparing for him if they intended to win? Are SC2 pro players really this dumb?
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On March 20 2024 09:36 LostUsername100 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 09:32 Kitai wrote:On March 20 2024 08:46 ktll4c91 wrote:
I don't understand why good performace in code S and team league is taken to be evidence for being good at prepping in Maru's case. Surely there's a lot of team effort. Especially considering Maru's two teammates Rogue and sOs are probably the best players at prepping for weekenders. I suspect they must have played a significant part in Maru's performance in Code S and teamleague. At weekenders, Maru doesn't get such help, therefore performs worse and we see more tilt, bad builds and upsets from him.
On the other hand, there was a clip in this year's IEM in which Reynor and Rotti discuss how Serral watches and remembers every replay. Weekenders, like GSL, can be prepped for and Serral is good at it. I can't imagine such a player would do worse when he gets even more time to prep in GSLs. There are definitely players who were much better in weekenders than prep tournaments. sOs and TaeJa are prime examples. Being good at one does not guarantee being good at the other. This is the biggest copium of all time, Serral played many matches that were set in stage way before they were actually played, such as sOs and Zest on Blizzcon groups, also... for the past 6 years he has been the favourite to every tournament he enteers, are people really not preparing for him if they intended to win? Are SC2 pro players really this dumb?
A day or two of prep time for several opponents =/= a week or more to deep dive into a single player. Also not sure what copium you're talking about since I think Serral is the GOAT. I just don't agree with every argument put forth about him, or the assumption that someone who is a monster at weekenders will definitely find the same success in GSL. In Serral's case, we'll never know, and speculation about how he could possibly do isn't as strong an argument as what he's actually accomplished.
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Northern Ireland24913 Posts
On March 20 2024 08:46 ktll4c91 wrote:
I don't understand why good performace in code S and team league is taken to be evidence for being good at prepping in Maru's case. Surely there's a lot of team effort. Especially considering Maru's two teammates Rogue and sOs are probably the best players at prepping for weekenders. I suspect they must have played a significant part in Maru's performance in Code S and teamleague. At weekenders, Maru doesn't get such help, therefore performs worse and we see more tilt, bad builds and upsets from him.
On the other hand, there was a clip in this year's IEM in which Reynor and Rotti discuss how Serral watches and remembers every replay. Weekenders, like GSL, can be prepped for and Serral is good at it. I can't imagine such a player would do worse when he gets even more time to prep in GSLs.
This has forever been a bugbear of mine, you need partners to do that prep so in some way it’s a team effort.
I also share your theory that Maru is slightly less potent in the weekender format for this very reason. Often his losses are bad choices rather than being mechanically outplayed.
Indeed, some of his heavier losses in big games, sOs in that Blizzcon, Rogue in a Code S final were both at the hands of the very teammates who would otherwise help him prep.
Not that it diminishes Maru as one of the greats but I do think it’s a minus point against him that’s oft-neglected
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On March 20 2024 10:08 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 08:46 ktll4c91 wrote:
I don't understand why good performace in code S and team league is taken to be evidence for being good at prepping in Maru's case. Surely there's a lot of team effort. Especially considering Maru's two teammates Rogue and sOs are probably the best players at prepping for weekenders. I suspect they must have played a significant part in Maru's performance in Code S and teamleague. At weekenders, Maru doesn't get such help, therefore performs worse and we see more tilt, bad builds and upsets from him.
On the other hand, there was a clip in this year's IEM in which Reynor and Rotti discuss how Serral watches and remembers every replay. Weekenders, like GSL, can be prepped for and Serral is good at it. I can't imagine such a player would do worse when he gets even more time to prep in GSLs. This has forever been a bugbear of mine, you need partners to do that prep so in some way it’s a team effort. I also share your theory that Maru is slightly less potent in the weekender format for this very reason. Often his losses are bad choices rather than being mechanically outplayed. Indeed, some of his heavier losses in big games, sOs in that Blizzcon, Rogue in a Code S final were both at the hands of the very teammates who would otherwise help him prep. Not that it diminishes Maru as one of the greats but I do think it’s a minus point against him that’s oft-neglected
Wow great points from both of you!
I felt similarly, I wouldn't value team league performance super highly because it's... a team victory! For example, just because 1 player racks up lots of ace match wins doesn't necessarily mean that they deserve the credit as an individual. You never know if the teammates/coach simply focused on helping 1 player over another, in order to strategize the best way to win. But I wasn't able to realize that Maru not being able to get the same kind of support may be part of why he's weaker at weekender tournies, and the double whammy that when he's against Rogue/sOs, he's fighting the same people who'd help him prep.
I also agree with the point that while preparation tournaments can in ways lead to the "highest level of SC2 play" being shown, in the end it's all relative to the opponents. Weekenders and prep tournaments are simply different formats, everyone is playing in the same format. You could say that having a whole week to prep for an opponent leads to more polished play and more carefully selected strategies, sure. But you can also say that being able to consistently win weekender tournaments where you have much less time to prepare and are forced in much more uncomfortable situations, is much more impressive than having a ton of time to prepare for each match. And if you're able to somehow be consistent in those, whether you're great at improving, or just have so much experience that you're familiar with more situations than others, or just so good at prepping that you can do so in such a condensed format.
This is part of why I think players like Taeja winning so so many weekender tournaments where other top players would drown in pools is being so undervalued by people in recent years, whereas back in HotS it was common opinion that he ranked very highly on the GOAT list. More prep time leads to the better players winning more consistently, with the caveat that they could get sniped by a well prepared build sure. However, if you're able to consistently win weekender tournaments with much less prep time, then that's really impressive.
There is evidence of players who were great at prep tournaments doing poorly in weekender events, too - for example Nestea. Won 3 Code S, but didn't do very well at tournaments like Iron Squid. Maru is another. There is enough evidence that prep tournaments are not necessarily "harder" than weekender tournaments. They are just different formats and it makes sense that different players excel at different formats.
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On March 20 2024 10:08 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 08:46 ktll4c91 wrote:
I don't understand why good performace in code S and team league is taken to be evidence for being good at prepping in Maru's case. Surely there's a lot of team effort. Especially considering Maru's two teammates Rogue and sOs are probably the best players at prepping for weekenders. I suspect they must have played a significant part in Maru's performance in Code S and teamleague. At weekenders, Maru doesn't get such help, therefore performs worse and we see more tilt, bad builds and upsets from him.
On the other hand, there was a clip in this year's IEM in which Reynor and Rotti discuss how Serral watches and remembers every replay. Weekenders, like GSL, can be prepped for and Serral is good at it. I can't imagine such a player would do worse when he gets even more time to prep in GSLs. This has forever been a bugbear of mine, you need partners to do that prep so in some way it’s a team effort. I also share your theory that Maru is slightly less potent in the weekender format for this very reason. Often his losses are bad choices rather than being mechanically outplayed. Indeed, some of his heavier losses in big games, sOs in that Blizzcon, Rogue in a Code S final were both at the hands of the very teammates who would otherwise help him prep. Not that it diminishes Maru as one of the greats but I do think it’s a minus point against him that’s oft-neglected
Yeah, I always hold strong believe that Maru , and Reynor, are two players who can benefit greatly from having the right coaching/prep before any big tournament. Maru has very good build that he will show at a tournament, but then he switch back to the very standard flaky opening of 3CC and a bunch of Helion in TvZ that die to 2 base Roach aggression. I wasnt mad at Maru losing the long, standout game against Serral, I was disappointed as F when he let a couple of Roach and Ravager kill him straight up. And he lost the same way to Dark just a couple weeks before that in the MC7 as well, like why there is no one telling him to play something more aggressive and mix it up. It could be 3 Racks opening, or variation of 2-1-1, ect.
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The GSL vs The World maybe bad example for weekender. 2018 it is easy to think that certain level of complacency may have played a part in Korean players' underperformance, when 'The World' was hosted on the home ground.
'Foreign killer' was killed.
However, 2019 was even worse from them. That bad, I suspect the whole tournament format was dropped out from schedule was at least partly because of abysmal 'The GSL' performance. Hard to justify sponsor money if Korean heroes are raggdolled by foreigners fully foreigning. 'Op Zerg' balance argument doesn't work particularly well here either as - you know - there were still rather high profile Korean Zergs participating in these events.
These two events, that do not count, btw, give a good time frame for the rise of Foreign scene. Neeb was there, TIME, Reynor, Elazer, Scarlett... Spearheaded by Serral. And when Korean Zergs failed to make much, Top Korean Protosses hold the flag highest against foreign usurpers.
This is also the time when Korean Elitist narrative 'preparation > weekender' was born in it's modern sense, and when 'GSL' started to mean only Code S.
All in all, from Serral's perspective these tourneys where rather lucrative economically: tourist visa, few days in a hotel without much preparation time while suffering jet lag, and 7.5 million wons per match winnings.
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Northern Ireland24913 Posts
On March 20 2024 12:39 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 10:08 WombaT wrote:On March 20 2024 08:46 ktll4c91 wrote:
I don't understand why good performace in code S and team league is taken to be evidence for being good at prepping in Maru's case. Surely there's a lot of team effort. Especially considering Maru's two teammates Rogue and sOs are probably the best players at prepping for weekenders. I suspect they must have played a significant part in Maru's performance in Code S and teamleague. At weekenders, Maru doesn't get such help, therefore performs worse and we see more tilt, bad builds and upsets from him.
On the other hand, there was a clip in this year's IEM in which Reynor and Rotti discuss how Serral watches and remembers every replay. Weekenders, like GSL, can be prepped for and Serral is good at it. I can't imagine such a player would do worse when he gets even more time to prep in GSLs. This has forever been a bugbear of mine, you need partners to do that prep so in some way it’s a team effort. I also share your theory that Maru is slightly less potent in the weekender format for this very reason. Often his losses are bad choices rather than being mechanically outplayed. Indeed, some of his heavier losses in big games, sOs in that Blizzcon, Rogue in a Code S final were both at the hands of the very teammates who would otherwise help him prep. Not that it diminishes Maru as one of the greats but I do think it’s a minus point against him that’s oft-neglected Wow great points from both of you! I felt similarly, I wouldn't value team league performance super highly because it's... a team victory! For example, just because 1 player racks up lots of ace match wins doesn't necessarily mean that they deserve the credit as an individual. You never know if the teammates/coach simply focused on helping 1 player over another, in order to strategize the best way to win. But I wasn't able to realize that Maru not being able to get the same kind of support may be part of why he's weaker at weekender tournies, and the double whammy that when he's against Rogue/sOs, he's fighting the same people who'd help him prep. I also agree with the point that while preparation tournaments can in ways lead to the "highest level of SC2 play" being shown, in the end it's all relative to the opponents. Weekenders and prep tournaments are simply different formats, everyone is playing in the same format. You could say that having a whole week to prep for an opponent leads to more polished play and more carefully selected strategies, sure. But you can also say that being able to consistently win weekender tournaments where you have much less time to prepare and are forced in much more uncomfortable situations, is much more impressive than having a ton of time to prepare for each match. And if you're able to somehow be consistent in those, whether you're great at improving, or just have so much experience that you're familiar with more situations than others, or just so good at prepping that you can do so in such a condensed format. This is part of why I think players like Taeja winning so so many weekender tournaments where other top players would drown in pools is being so undervalued by people in recent years, whereas back in HotS it was common opinion that he ranked very highly on the GOAT list. More prep time leads to the better players winning more consistently, with the caveat that they could get sniped by a well prepared build sure. However, if you're able to consistently win weekender tournaments with much less prep time, then that's really impressive. There is evidence of players who were great at prep tournaments doing poorly in weekender events, too - for example Nestea. Won 3 Code S, but didn't do very well at tournaments like Iron Squid. Maru is another. There is enough evidence that prep tournaments are not necessarily "harder" than weekender tournaments. They are just different formats and it makes sense that different players excel at different formats.
Aye I mean players excel with different races, and indeed even within the same race with different styles, it stands to reason different formats may also suit different skill sets and personalities.
And yeah I don’t consider one or the other particular harder or more prestigious, they’re just different. I mean it’s impressive to plan and practice for an opponent for a week, figure out ways to blindside them and predict what gambits they might employ, and then deliver when you’re on that stage. Just as it is running a gauntlet against other elite players with little prep time and thinking more on your feet.
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Northern Ireland24913 Posts
On March 20 2024 13:36 UnLarva wrote:
The GSL vs The World maybe bad example for weekender. 2018 it is easy to think that certain level of complacency may have played a part in Korean players' underperformance, when 'The World' was hosted on the home ground.
'Foreign killer' was killed.
However, 2019 was even worse from them. That bad, I suspect the whole tournament format was dropped out from schedule was at least partly because of abysmal 'The GSL' performance. Hard to justify sponsor money if Korean heroes are raggdolled by foreigners fully foreigning. 'Op Zerg' balance argument doesn't work particularly well here either as - you know - there were still rather high profile Korean Zergs participating in these events.
These two events, that do not count, btw, give a good time frame for the rise of Foreign scene. Neeb was there, TIME, Reynor, Elazer, Scarlett... Spearheaded by Serral. And when Korean Zergs failed to make much, Top Korean Protosses hold the flag highest against foreign usurpers.
This is also the time when Korean Elitist narrative 'preparation > weekender' was born in it's modern sense, and when 'GSL' started to mean only Code S.
All in all, from Serral's perspective these tourneys where rather lucrative economically: tourist visa, few days in a hotel without much preparation time while suffering jet lag, and 7.5 million wons per match winnings.
You’re countering arguments that are very rarely made.
GSL has been shorthand for Code S for absolutely forever, people didn’t change their definition just to deny Serral credit for GSL versus the world or whatever you’re angling.
There was a bit of initial confusion with changing formats, and a Super Tournament or two that was quite different but debate raged if it should be classed as a Code S or not. But aside from those first few years it’s been pretty stable definitionally.
Again, ‘Korean elitists’ have forever valued the prep format highly, I imagine in part because Brood War Starleagues as well as Proleague had a big prep component.
People were saying that Taeja who, last I checked is Korean was overrated well over a decade ago because he couldn’t show his weekender form in Code S.
It’s a gap in Serral’s resume, personally not one large enough for me to stick him at #1, but people by and large haven’t pulled this out of thin air all of a sudden just to try and deny his greatness.
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On March 20 2024 12:45 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 10:08 WombaT wrote:On March 20 2024 08:46 ktll4c91 wrote:
I don't understand why good performace in code S and team league is taken to be evidence for being good at prepping in Maru's case. Surely there's a lot of team effort. Especially considering Maru's two teammates Rogue and sOs are probably the best players at prepping for weekenders. I suspect they must have played a significant part in Maru's performance in Code S and teamleague. At weekenders, Maru doesn't get such help, therefore performs worse and we see more tilt, bad builds and upsets from him.
On the other hand, there was a clip in this year's IEM in which Reynor and Rotti discuss how Serral watches and remembers every replay. Weekenders, like GSL, can be prepped for and Serral is good at it. I can't imagine such a player would do worse when he gets even more time to prep in GSLs. This has forever been a bugbear of mine, you need partners to do that prep so in some way it’s a team effort. I also share your theory that Maru is slightly less potent in the weekender format for this very reason. Often his losses are bad choices rather than being mechanically outplayed. Indeed, some of his heavier losses in big games, sOs in that Blizzcon, Rogue in a Code S final were both at the hands of the very teammates who would otherwise help him prep. Not that it diminishes Maru as one of the greats but I do think it’s a minus point against him that’s oft-neglected Yeah, I always hold strong believe that Maru , and Reynor, are two players who can benefit greatly from having the right coaching/prep before any big tournament. Maru has very good build that he will show at a tournament, but then he switch back to the very standard flaky opening of 3CC and a bunch of Helion in TvZ that die to 2 base Roach aggression. I wasnt mad at Maru losing the long, standout game against Serral, I was disappointed as F when he let a couple of Roach and Ravager kill him straight up. And he lost the same way to Dark just a couple weeks before that in the MC7 as well, like why there is no one telling him to play something more aggressive and mix it up. It could be 3 Racks opening, or variation of 2-1-1, ect.
Pretty sure if he would play 3 racks openings, 2-1-1, etc and it falls flat people would call him a baboon for not just playing standard 3CC and relying on being better in the macro game (That has actually happened already, e.g. when he got reverse-swept by Reynor).
That's the thing with terran (or Protoss), there isn't a catch all build you can spam every game. That's also why I think Serrals consistency is partly due to his race and wouldn't be replicable with another race.
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Northern Ireland24913 Posts
On March 20 2024 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 12:45 tigera6 wrote:On March 20 2024 10:08 WombaT wrote:On March 20 2024 08:46 ktll4c91 wrote:
I don't understand why good performace in code S and team league is taken to be evidence for being good at prepping in Maru's case. Surely there's a lot of team effort. Especially considering Maru's two teammates Rogue and sOs are probably the best players at prepping for weekenders. I suspect they must have played a significant part in Maru's performance in Code S and teamleague. At weekenders, Maru doesn't get such help, therefore performs worse and we see more tilt, bad builds and upsets from him.
On the other hand, there was a clip in this year's IEM in which Reynor and Rotti discuss how Serral watches and remembers every replay. Weekenders, like GSL, can be prepped for and Serral is good at it. I can't imagine such a player would do worse when he gets even more time to prep in GSLs. This has forever been a bugbear of mine, you need partners to do that prep so in some way it’s a team effort. I also share your theory that Maru is slightly less potent in the weekender format for this very reason. Often his losses are bad choices rather than being mechanically outplayed. Indeed, some of his heavier losses in big games, sOs in that Blizzcon, Rogue in a Code S final were both at the hands of the very teammates who would otherwise help him prep. Not that it diminishes Maru as one of the greats but I do think it’s a minus point against him that’s oft-neglected Yeah, I always hold strong believe that Maru , and Reynor, are two players who can benefit greatly from having the right coaching/prep before any big tournament. Maru has very good build that he will show at a tournament, but then he switch back to the very standard flaky opening of 3CC and a bunch of Helion in TvZ that die to 2 base Roach aggression. I wasnt mad at Maru losing the long, standout game against Serral, I was disappointed as F when he let a couple of Roach and Ravager kill him straight up. And he lost the same way to Dark just a couple weeks before that in the MC7 as well, like why there is no one telling him to play something more aggressive and mix it up. It could be 3 Racks opening, or variation of 2-1-1, ect. Pretty sure if he would play 3 racks openings, 2-1-1, etc and it falls flat people would call him a baboon for not just playing standard 3CC and relying on being better in the macro game (That has actually happened already, e.g. when he got reverse-swept by Reynor). That's the thing with terran (or Protoss), there isn't a catch all build you can spam every game. That's also why I think Serrals consistency is partly due to his race and wouldn't be replicable with another race.
Aye although I think the more knowledgable posters here were a bit more critical of what divergence he chose, especially versus Reynor, or when he chose to employ it rather than being purely critical of him mixing it up, which I think most sensible fans assume is necessary especially if you’re playing T and even more so for P. It was that Reynor was just unable to break Maru in late games, he didn’t have the answers and he got to match point and even with some maps remaining that were theoretically even better for that style he abandoned it to get reverse swept.
There is a bit of ‘did it work?’ bias of course. When Maru was proxying and winning all the time it was genius, or Serral mixing in some heavy ravager pressure builds.
I mean the high water mark of that, and hey it was a beautiful moment but Classic’s famous blink DT snipe of Rogue could have just looked awful if Rogue had sniffed it, or even had some blind defence. IIRC Classic even said in interviews later that it wasn’t reliable in practice but he felt he had to pull a Hail Mary.
I mean the critique is also a bit harsh because it’s in the context of the GOAT debate, most other players aren’t put under quite the same scrutiny.
I do generally agree that Zerg can prosper a bit more playing very similarly and reacting, but equally this Katowice we didn’t see Serral just macro it up every game. He had a very clever prepped strategy he used against Dark, and against Maru he mixed it up rather a lot too
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On March 20 2024 09:28 LostUsername100 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 03:43 _TakeR_ wrote:
Interesting that actually winning the most world championships and by far the most premier events, and having the most dominant win record and head-to-head stats vs every player overall, isn't actually enough to be the greatest.
Also the reasoning that accomplishing far more than others have managed, and doing it in LESS time time than the others managed to achieve their more meagre accomplishments, is counted as a black mark against Serral is... also interesting. If only Serral had accomplished all of his superior achievements over a 12 year period rather than just a 7 year one, THEN his uncontestable combined world championships and premier events tally could actually be counted and finally he could be annointed as the true GOAT. Sad.
I will admit Maru has been in the scene longer, and thus 'wins' according to the singular rationale of the article writer.
I will also admit that Maru is definitely the best at winning regional tournaments where Serral is not eligible to participate.
I believe those are the only two metrics where Maru actually beats Serral, and so on that basis, all hail Maru the GOAT! 10/10 post
10/10 Joke Post.
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On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble.
Great post. You can't be the GOAT when you lose tons of mirrors and some of them 0-4.
Not a balance whine, but everybody knows Z has been OP since LOTV. Serral is GREAT, he's truly a phenom, but he's been thriving since LOTV in an era where not just him but tons of other zergs have just dominated.
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On March 20 2024 09:44 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 09:36 LostUsername100 wrote:On March 20 2024 09:32 Kitai wrote:On March 20 2024 08:46 ktll4c91 wrote:
I don't understand why good performace in code S and team league is taken to be evidence for being good at prepping in Maru's case. Surely there's a lot of team effort. Especially considering Maru's two teammates Rogue and sOs are probably the best players at prepping for weekenders. I suspect they must have played a significant part in Maru's performance in Code S and teamleague. At weekenders, Maru doesn't get such help, therefore performs worse and we see more tilt, bad builds and upsets from him.
On the other hand, there was a clip in this year's IEM in which Reynor and Rotti discuss how Serral watches and remembers every replay. Weekenders, like GSL, can be prepped for and Serral is good at it. I can't imagine such a player would do worse when he gets even more time to prep in GSLs. There are definitely players who were much better in weekenders than prep tournaments. sOs and TaeJa are prime examples. Being good at one does not guarantee being good at the other. This is the biggest copium of all time, Serral played many matches that were set in stage way before they were actually played, such as sOs and Zest on Blizzcon groups, also... for the past 6 years he has been the favourite to every tournament he enteers, are people really not preparing for him if they intended to win? Are SC2 pro players really this dumb? A day or two of prep time for several opponents =/= a week or more to deep dive into a single player. Also not sure what copium you're talking about since I think Serral is the GOAT. I just don't agree with every argument put forth about him, or the assumption that someone who is a monster at weekenders will definitely find the same success in GSL. In Serral's case, we'll never know, and speculation about how he could possibly do isn't as strong an argument as what he's actually accomplished.
Blizzcon groups were decided waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before a day or two, it was a month or more before. Zest and sOs specifically said they prepared for Serral, still 4-0'd combined score.
For blizzcon playoffs it was a week before though, still more than a day or two.
There was some other tournament it was decided weeks before too and he 3-0 or 2-0 TY on first match.
It's a ridiculous point, they're still playing SC2, Taeja had issue with nerves on GSL for some reason (and wasn't anywhere as dominant as Serral), Serral is a multiple time world champion and winningest SC2 player ever.
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EPT
