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France12899 Posts
On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble.
He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like
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On March 19 2024 02:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 02:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 19 2024 01:35 Fango wrote:On March 19 2024 01:09 Starcloud wrote:
Of course there are nuances and preferences that each individual can value differently. But it starts to be harder and harder to make a solid case for the claim that Maru is the GOAT, especially as he seems to get stomped by Serral in most of the tournaments. And what WombaT said earlier; All the time here people here accuse others for recency bias, although Serral has been at the top for 6 years. Its getting old already (pun intended).
People say recency bias because there are even sc2 casters saying Serral is number 1 because he beat Maru at IEM. It's like they didn't watch sc2 before 2018. People are also saying Maru has few achievements before then, which just shows they're reading Liquipedia results and never watched Proleague or Korean sc2 during Kespa. Because Maru was literally the best Starleague player of HotS when SC2 was as it's deepest competitively, and is probably the best Proleague player SC2 ever had. He also won the MVP of the most recent World Team League, 10 years after first Proleague award). People not caring about longevity is one thing, but you can't deny that other people might appreciate it more. Serral has his case of being the most dominant and best international player, but Maru has his case to be the best Teamleague and Starleague player, having the greatest longevity, and the best wins against bad balance. To say he doesn't have a solid case at all is silly. If other people appreciate longevity more, then MVP should not be #4 above Innovation and Dark should not be excluded from a top 10. There's no way to justify putting Maru above Serral if you're going to put MVP above Innovation and Dark. That's why people are saying this list's ranking is bogus. Swap Innovation to above MVP, and put Dark next to Inno/MVP (above or below is fine), and then you can put Maru at #1. It's really not fair to accuse people of not watching SC2, as if they aren't allowed to have their own opinions. People on TL are clearly putting much more value into Starleagues and Proleagues, but others put less. If a caster feels that Serral's play is great and that beating Maru in a WC has some strong metaphorical meaning, then that's valid. A lot of people see it the same way too. SC2 is on its twilight years now, and we had a relatively strong Maru (coming off 2 GSL wins in 2023) vs a Serral starting a new peak (the most dominant we've ever seen in any SC2 era). Maru got 4-0'd and went home with $80k less. Even if Maru performed really well in HotS, perhaps better than if a hypothetical Serral tried to compete in KR during HotS, Serral is just outperforming Maru 2018+ for 6 years now. In the now, in the most recent and current era of SC2, Serral is above Maru. You can call it recency bias, but I'd just say that it's reasonable to look at the newest state of things. If a player who continues competing gets eclipsed by another player, then that player has surpassed them. We can look back at the past results before they were surpassed, but the current day is more indicative of the future. Unlike physical sports where your age plays a huge part in your capability, thankfully in this case we don't have to worry about that, as Serral and Maru are nearly the same age anyways. Well, yeah I agree, there are inconsistencies with the list, you can extend that to TY being above Rain but Dark being below soO. But why the outrage only now when Serral gets placed below another player? We all know why, because he's a foreigner.
Hey now, I was outraged about INno's placement and Dark's exclusion long before #1 and #2 came out! 
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On March 18 2024 18:38 jack_less wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 14:40 dedede wrote:
Maru is called the 4th race for reasons. sounds like "hype from casters and fanboys" too? and the pseudo argument "zerg is op since 2017" is not really true. just look at GSL 2016 until now Zerg was never overrepresentative. on the contrary, there are quarterfinals without zergs. Compared to Terran. Zergs were overrepresentative in WCS, funnily enough neeb (toss) dominated here until serral took over in 2018.
Nah it's not hype from casters, it's hype from my own 2018/2019 GSL watching experience.
"Zerg has been op since 2017" is as true as the fact zergs winning 9 out of 11 WCS/IEM Katowice since 2017, I can be even bothered bring up 2019 the year of zerg and how many ZvZ finals there were:
Since 2017
WCS Zerg x3 (rogue/serral/dark)
IEM Katowice Zerg x6 (rogue/soo/reynor/serral) Terran x2 (TY/oli)
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On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like
What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played?
This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. If Maru, who continues to wreck face against everyone not named Serral, is past his prime, so is Serral, because in 2018 Serral literally didn't lose to anyone for a year.
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Interesting that actually winning the most world championships and by far the most premier events, and having the most dominant win record and head-to-head stats vs every player overall, isn't actually enough to be the greatest.
Also the reasoning that accomplishing far more than others have managed, and doing it in LESS time time than the others managed to achieve their more meagre accomplishments, is counted as a black mark against Serral is... also interesting. If only Serral had accomplished all of his superior achievements over a 12 year period rather than just a 7 year one, THEN his uncontestable combined world championships and premier events tally could actually be counted and finally he could be annointed as the true GOAT. Sad.
I will admit Maru has been in the scene longer, and thus 'wins' according to the singular rationale of the article writer.
I will also admit that Maru is definitely the best at winning regional tournaments where Serral is not eligible to participate.
I believe those are the only two metrics where Maru actually beats Serral, and so on that basis, all hail Maru the GOAT!
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On March 18 2024 22:10 Comedy wrote:
there has never been a korean with the same dominance as serral, consistently 7.3k mmr while the 2nd and 3rd best players are sitting at 7k, a favorite vs anyone he faces
the only guy who had comparable periods where he felt untouchable was maybe innovation, but he fumbled so many times and then lost to weak players or just didnt practice for a few months, for whatever reason lost his aura
serral has been consistently dominant for 6 years, with really high peaks, but even during his 'lows', he still looks like the best player in the world
Ladder doesn't mean anything in the GOAT discussion. In 2023's ladder season 3, the second highest MMR belonged to Elazer. And for what it's worth (nothing), Maru currently has a higher MMR than Serral as of posting.
Also you act as if Serral wins every tournament. Last year's Katowice, where Maru got second place, Serral was eliminated in the ro8.
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On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now.
In the recent interview with Crank Maru said it makes no difference to him if the tournament is in korea or not - his form only depends on the condition of his shoulder issues.
Under this assumption both can be true, that Maru sometimes plays the best he's ever played and othertimes slips up more then when he was younger and had less issues with his shoulder
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France12899 Posts
On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. If Maru, who continues to wreck face against everyone not named Serral, is past his prime, so is Serral, because in 2018 Serral literally didn't lose to anyone for a year.
He is still playing scaringly well (his game on radhuset station vs Serral was some dark magic Terran play), I was mostly talking about mechanical skill, not overall skill. He has gained experience since HotS in several departments, but there is the shoulder issue as mentioned above, and a very slight decay mechanically at this age (which might or might not be preventable, athletes nowadays last longer than in the past, I am pretty sure esport athletes will follow a similar path)
So he is not as consistent as in his prime in maintaining top skill across a tournament
Serral on the other hand is the best at playing near his best consistently
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On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like
Weird. I checked the same source you did and it said "Prime Serral is a nearly unbeatable force of nature, best who ever touched the game by a mile and that is without ever being trained in a korean teamhouse".
You did check "my own unprovable opinion" aswell, didn't you?
And I know, you will say "yeah, but Zerg is OP" and then proof that Zerg is OP by saying "because Maru can't win". And why can Maru not win? Because of Zerg OP, duh. Which is a perfect circlejerk no doubt, but it hardly holds up in this shitty thing called reality mate...
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On March 19 2024 03:50 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. In the recent interview with Crank Maru said it makes no difference to him if the tournament is in korea or not - his form only depends on the condition of his shoulder issues. Under this assumption both can be true, that Maru sometimes plays the best he's ever played and othertimes slips up more then when he was younger and had less issues with his shoulder
On March 19 2024 03:53 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. If Maru, who continues to wreck face against everyone not named Serral, is past his prime, so is Serral, because in 2018 Serral literally didn't lose to anyone for a year. He is still playing scaringly well (his game on radhuset station vs Serral was some dark magic Terran play), I was mostly talking about mechanical skill, not overall skill. He has gained experience since HotS in several departments, but there is the shoulder issue as mentioned above, and a very slight decay mechanically at this age (which might or might not be preventable, athletes nowadays last longer than in the past, I am pretty sure esport athletes will follow a similar path) So he is not as consistent as in his prime in maintaining top skill across a tournament Serral on the other hand is the best at playing near his best consistently
Interesting point, but has he ever said that his shoulder issues are getting worse with time or are you both just assuming that? Because my point is that if Maru had gone on to win Katowice 2024 I'm pretty sure we'd be clearly calling him still in his peak years, so you can't say he's past his prime just because he lost to Serral. There's no reason to actually think he's past his prime. His performances the last year are not really any different than any years before. It's the same pattern.
It's the same Maru as forever. He wins in Korea and does extraordinarily well (but does not win) internationally.
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On March 19 2024 04:01 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 03:50 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. In the recent interview with Crank Maru said it makes no difference to him if the tournament is in korea or not - his form only depends on the condition of his shoulder issues. Under this assumption both can be true, that Maru sometimes plays the best he's ever played and othertimes slips up more then when he was younger and had less issues with his shoulder Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 03:53 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. If Maru, who continues to wreck face against everyone not named Serral, is past his prime, so is Serral, because in 2018 Serral literally didn't lose to anyone for a year. He is still playing scaringly well (his game on radhuset station vs Serral was some dark magic Terran play), I was mostly talking about mechanical skill, not overall skill. He has gained experience since HotS in several departments, but there is the shoulder issue as mentioned above, and a very slight decay mechanically at this age (which might or might not be preventable, athletes nowadays last longer than in the past, I am pretty sure esport athletes will follow a similar path) So he is not as consistent as in his prime in maintaining top skill across a tournament Serral on the other hand is the best at playing near his best consistently Interesting point, but has he ever said that his shoulder issues are getting worse with time or are you both just assuming that? Because my point is that if Maru had gone on to win Katowice 2024 I'm pretty sure we'd be clearly calling him still in his peak years, so you can't say he's past his prime just because he lost to Serral. There's no reason to actually think he's past his prime. His performances the last year are not really any different than any years before. It's the same pattern. It's the same Maru as forever. He wins in Korea and does extraordinarily well (but does not win) internationally.
Yeah, in 2020/21 (I think) he said that his shoulder issues have gotten worse and he was seeking treatment for them and that's why he dropped out of a couple tournaments during that time
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On March 19 2024 04:06 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 04:01 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:50 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. In the recent interview with Crank Maru said it makes no difference to him if the tournament is in korea or not - his form only depends on the condition of his shoulder issues. Under this assumption both can be true, that Maru sometimes plays the best he's ever played and othertimes slips up more then when he was younger and had less issues with his shoulder On March 19 2024 03:53 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. If Maru, who continues to wreck face against everyone not named Serral, is past his prime, so is Serral, because in 2018 Serral literally didn't lose to anyone for a year. He is still playing scaringly well (his game on radhuset station vs Serral was some dark magic Terran play), I was mostly talking about mechanical skill, not overall skill. He has gained experience since HotS in several departments, but there is the shoulder issue as mentioned above, and a very slight decay mechanically at this age (which might or might not be preventable, athletes nowadays last longer than in the past, I am pretty sure esport athletes will follow a similar path) So he is not as consistent as in his prime in maintaining top skill across a tournament Serral on the other hand is the best at playing near his best consistently Interesting point, but has he ever said that his shoulder issues are getting worse with time or are you both just assuming that? Because my point is that if Maru had gone on to win Katowice 2024 I'm pretty sure we'd be clearly calling him still in his peak years, so you can't say he's past his prime just because he lost to Serral. There's no reason to actually think he's past his prime. His performances the last year are not really any different than any years before. It's the same pattern. It's the same Maru as forever. He wins in Korea and does extraordinarily well (but does not win) internationally. Yeah, in 2020/21 (I think) he said that his shoulder issues have gotten worse and he was seeking treatment for them and that's why he dropped out of a couple tournaments during that time
Super fair, but again I'll highlight that I'm not actually sure his performances are any worse (or better) than they've been historically.
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On March 19 2024 04:17 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 04:06 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2024 04:01 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:50 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. In the recent interview with Crank Maru said it makes no difference to him if the tournament is in korea or not - his form only depends on the condition of his shoulder issues. Under this assumption both can be true, that Maru sometimes plays the best he's ever played and othertimes slips up more then when he was younger and had less issues with his shoulder On March 19 2024 03:53 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. If Maru, who continues to wreck face against everyone not named Serral, is past his prime, so is Serral, because in 2018 Serral literally didn't lose to anyone for a year. He is still playing scaringly well (his game on radhuset station vs Serral was some dark magic Terran play), I was mostly talking about mechanical skill, not overall skill. He has gained experience since HotS in several departments, but there is the shoulder issue as mentioned above, and a very slight decay mechanically at this age (which might or might not be preventable, athletes nowadays last longer than in the past, I am pretty sure esport athletes will follow a similar path) So he is not as consistent as in his prime in maintaining top skill across a tournament Serral on the other hand is the best at playing near his best consistently Interesting point, but has he ever said that his shoulder issues are getting worse with time or are you both just assuming that? Because my point is that if Maru had gone on to win Katowice 2024 I'm pretty sure we'd be clearly calling him still in his peak years, so you can't say he's past his prime just because he lost to Serral. There's no reason to actually think he's past his prime. His performances the last year are not really any different than any years before. It's the same pattern. It's the same Maru as forever. He wins in Korea and does extraordinarily well (but does not win) internationally. Yeah, in 2020/21 (I think) he said that his shoulder issues have gotten worse and he was seeking treatment for them and that's why he dropped out of a couple tournaments during that time Super fair, but again I'll highlight that I'm not actually sure his performances are any worse (or better) than they've been historically.
That might just be because the competition has gotten worse though. There are way less championship-tier players in korea so it's just easier to get results. Dark also said he's playing worse than he used to despite continuing to be a top 3 korean.
If everyone is playing worse you get the same results despite playing worse
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I appreciate anyone with the passion for the game to put a lot of work into a project such as this, and reading the recaps was enjoyable individually for nostalgia, so I hate to speak negatively on this. With that said, I still just don't see any consistent criteria into how the ranking was decided, with some obvious contradictions throughout, which makes it hard to take seriously. I'm fine with differing opinions as long as things remain consistent, but this just isn't it. This is unfortunate because instead of feeling a sense of wonder going through the list, I'm ultimately just left with a sour taste in my mouth.
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Northern Ireland25677 Posts
On March 19 2024 03:53 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. If Maru, who continues to wreck face against everyone not named Serral, is past his prime, so is Serral, because in 2018 Serral literally didn't lose to anyone for a year. He is still playing scaringly well (his game on radhuset station vs Serral was some dark magic Terran play), I was mostly talking about mechanical skill, not overall skill. He has gained experience since HotS in several departments, but there is the shoulder issue as mentioned above, and a very slight decay mechanically at this age (which might or might not be preventable, athletes nowadays last longer than in the past, I am pretty sure esport athletes will follow a similar path) So he is not as consistent as in his prime in maintaining top skill across a tournament Serral on the other hand is the best at playing near his best consistently
Actually rewatched the VoD earlier, plan to actually get the replays and properly have a sit down. The level of both players is absolutely insane in that set, every trick in the Zerg book almost, employed with regularity and Maru somehow batting them off. By and large both almost insta-pulling workers when harassed, as things are going on in 3/4 other places. The kind of thing that even other top players start to let slip in such a relentless showdown.
It’s a shame the map is well, ‘not ideal’ for Terran which leaves something of a sour taste, and going pick first over veto first is daft.
If you had a 7 game slugfest of that calibre, wow the long awaited Serral versus Maru final might have lived up to the hype!
I think Serral is a bit more consistent in bringing something close to his A-game in recent times, but I also think part of his success is just scraping wins even when he is off. And when he does have someone beat him it’s rarely by more than a set. It gives you a hell of a platform to consistently place, and also that little mental edge over your opponent who likely knows they’ve got to play their absolute best to even have a chance, and still might lose.
Maru just doesn’t seem to have that ability to really dig it out when he’s not able to straight-up outplay his opponent at times in the last couple of years at least. It’s like when it comes down to a game of nerves, he’s the first to blink.
Perhaps the physical issues blend in, impact how he can sustain himself, or even just the doubt they can induce, but Maru’s issue in these big WCs for quite a while now has been mental IMO. And not in the sense of choking or making big mechanical mistakes, but making bad decisions. Be those BO choices, or tactical errors that he just doesn’t make when he’s really on it.
Note - I’m talking relative to Maru’s level, and talking arguably the two GOAT candidates and their relative claims. It’s a much harsher lens, obviously Maru has plenty of clutch performances and times he outthought as well as outfought his opponents over the years.
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It also might be the injuries that catch up on day 3 of these big tournaments from stress/playing a lot or simply yeah he's a bit inconsistent. There have been multiple tournaments where Maru is on fire, gets to the ro4 or whatever the case is, and then the next day you get the Maru who just can't seem to play up to his standard. Its almost like Space Jam when the monstars takes the players talent lol.
He's said himself recently there's days where he just doesn't feel fast or his hands don't listen to his brain.
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On March 19 2024 02:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 02:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 19 2024 01:35 Fango wrote:On March 19 2024 01:09 Starcloud wrote:
Of course there are nuances and preferences that each individual can value differently. But it starts to be harder and harder to make a solid case for the claim that Maru is the GOAT, especially as he seems to get stomped by Serral in most of the tournaments. And what WombaT said earlier; All the time here people here accuse others for recency bias, although Serral has been at the top for 6 years. Its getting old already (pun intended).
People say recency bias because there are even sc2 casters saying Serral is number 1 because he beat Maru at IEM. It's like they didn't watch sc2 before 2018. People are also saying Maru has few achievements before then, which just shows they're reading Liquipedia results and never watched Proleague or Korean sc2 during Kespa. Because Maru was literally the best Starleague player of HotS when SC2 was as it's deepest competitively, and is probably the best Proleague player SC2 ever had. He also won the MVP of the most recent World Team League, 10 years after first Proleague award). People not caring about longevity is one thing, but you can't deny that other people might appreciate it more. Serral has his case of being the most dominant and best international player, but Maru has his case to be the best Teamleague and Starleague player, having the greatest longevity, and the best wins against bad balance. To say he doesn't have a solid case at all is silly. If other people appreciate longevity more, then MVP should not be #4 above Innovation and Dark should not be excluded from a top 10. There's no way to justify putting Maru above Serral if you're going to put MVP above Innovation and Dark. That's why people are saying this list's ranking is bogus. Swap Innovation to above MVP, and put Dark next to Inno/MVP (above or below is fine), and then you can put Maru at #1. It's really not fair to accuse people of not watching SC2, as if they aren't allowed to have their own opinions. People on TL are clearly putting much more value into Starleagues and Proleagues, but others put less. If a caster feels that Serral's play is great and that beating Maru in a WC has some strong metaphorical meaning, then that's valid. A lot of people see it the same way too. SC2 is on its twilight years now, and we had a relatively strong Maru (coming off 2 GSL wins in 2023) vs a Serral starting a new peak (the most dominant we've ever seen in any SC2 era). Maru got 4-0'd and went home with $80k less. Even if Maru performed really well in HotS, perhaps better than if a hypothetical Serral tried to compete in KR during HotS, Serral is just outperforming Maru 2018+ for 6 years now. In the now, in the most recent and current era of SC2, Serral is above Maru. You can call it recency bias, but I'd just say that it's reasonable to look at the newest state of things. If a player who continues competing gets eclipsed by another player, then that player has surpassed them. We can look back at the past results before they were surpassed, but the current day is more indicative of the future. Unlike physical sports where your age plays a huge part in your capability, thankfully in this case we don't have to worry about that, as Serral and Maru are nearly the same age anyways. Well, yeah I agree, there are inconsistencies with the list, you can extend that to TY being above Rain but Dark being below soO. But why the outrage only now when Serral gets placed below another player? We all know why, because he's a foreigner. People are certainly allowed to have their opinion and Serral being #1 is an absolute legitimate opinion, but calling the list "embarassing" or saying there's no way Maru is above Serral is stupid. If someone doesn't see how both players have a good claim to be #1 then yeah, I think they are biased and/or are not watching sc2
Are you referring to me or people in general? Because I've had huge issues with this list ever since i saw Rain at #10 and been very vocal about it. Then things got sus when I saw Ty make it, and soO above them, and started to think that MVP or Dark would be left out. It only got worse when Inno was #5 because then I started to get afraid that MVP might be put above him - i concluded that it must be Dark because Dark has continued going for years beyond Inno by now. Then it got worse worse when MVP was not only in over Dark, but over Innovation. I got accused of revisionist history for my opinions/memories heh. Then it was even worse with Rogue Serral Maru being the final 3 order. This list has no consistency and therefore no integrity as a ranking unfortunately, while they are nice and well researched articles to read (and nice list of recommended games).
They both have a claim to #1 certainly, but within the context of this list - placing MVP above Innovation and leaving Dark out is a huge mistake, and placing soO above Dark and heckin Rain and TY over Dark are less huge but still whack. All of those things should have led to Rogue Maru Serral being the final order (or possibly Maru Rogue Serral since Rogue had a high peak in a short time that was arguably higher than Maru's, but either way Serral clearly has the highest peak not just for 1-2 years but for 6 years, and should have been #1).
Either way it's pretty unfair and unfounded to just dismiss people's grieviances as foreigner bias.
Regarding statements like "if you don't hold this opinion then you are not watching SC2", there have been countless people saying that Taeja's premiere weekender wins didn't mean much because "he only fought B tier Koreans", "he fought only Code A players", "his KR opponents didn't care much because Proleague was more important". This is a great example of people's memories being off because I went back to check his premiere wins from 2013 to 2015 and he beat Life, Innovation, MC, sOs, MMA, sOs, Jaedong, etc. many times to get those wins, and it wasn't uncommon for the players i mentioned to even drown in pools at those.
So no, if people have a different opinion than you, it doesn't mean that you can assume you watched more SC2 than they did lol
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On March 19 2024 05:13 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 02:55 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2024 02:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 19 2024 01:35 Fango wrote:On March 19 2024 01:09 Starcloud wrote:
Of course there are nuances and preferences that each individual can value differently. But it starts to be harder and harder to make a solid case for the claim that Maru is the GOAT, especially as he seems to get stomped by Serral in most of the tournaments. And what WombaT said earlier; All the time here people here accuse others for recency bias, although Serral has been at the top for 6 years. Its getting old already (pun intended).
People say recency bias because there are even sc2 casters saying Serral is number 1 because he beat Maru at IEM. It's like they didn't watch sc2 before 2018. People are also saying Maru has few achievements before then, which just shows they're reading Liquipedia results and never watched Proleague or Korean sc2 during Kespa. Because Maru was literally the best Starleague player of HotS when SC2 was as it's deepest competitively, and is probably the best Proleague player SC2 ever had. He also won the MVP of the most recent World Team League, 10 years after first Proleague award). People not caring about longevity is one thing, but you can't deny that other people might appreciate it more. Serral has his case of being the most dominant and best international player, but Maru has his case to be the best Teamleague and Starleague player, having the greatest longevity, and the best wins against bad balance. To say he doesn't have a solid case at all is silly. If other people appreciate longevity more, then MVP should not be #4 above Innovation and Dark should not be excluded from a top 10. There's no way to justify putting Maru above Serral if you're going to put MVP above Innovation and Dark. That's why people are saying this list's ranking is bogus. Swap Innovation to above MVP, and put Dark next to Inno/MVP (above or below is fine), and then you can put Maru at #1. It's really not fair to accuse people of not watching SC2, as if they aren't allowed to have their own opinions. People on TL are clearly putting much more value into Starleagues and Proleagues, but others put less. If a caster feels that Serral's play is great and that beating Maru in a WC has some strong metaphorical meaning, then that's valid. A lot of people see it the same way too. SC2 is on its twilight years now, and we had a relatively strong Maru (coming off 2 GSL wins in 2023) vs a Serral starting a new peak (the most dominant we've ever seen in any SC2 era). Maru got 4-0'd and went home with $80k less. Even if Maru performed really well in HotS, perhaps better than if a hypothetical Serral tried to compete in KR during HotS, Serral is just outperforming Maru 2018+ for 6 years now. In the now, in the most recent and current era of SC2, Serral is above Maru. You can call it recency bias, but I'd just say that it's reasonable to look at the newest state of things. If a player who continues competing gets eclipsed by another player, then that player has surpassed them. We can look back at the past results before they were surpassed, but the current day is more indicative of the future. Unlike physical sports where your age plays a huge part in your capability, thankfully in this case we don't have to worry about that, as Serral and Maru are nearly the same age anyways. Well, yeah I agree, there are inconsistencies with the list, you can extend that to TY being above Rain but Dark being below soO. But why the outrage only now when Serral gets placed below another player? We all know why, because he's a foreigner. People are certainly allowed to have their opinion and Serral being #1 is an absolute legitimate opinion, but calling the list "embarassing" or saying there's no way Maru is above Serral is stupid. If someone doesn't see how both players have a good claim to be #1 then yeah, I think they are biased and/or are not watching sc2 Are you referring to me or people in general? Because I've had huge issues with this list ever since i saw Rain at #10 and been very vocal about it to the point i was accused for "revisionist history". Then things got sus when I saw Ty make it, and soO above them, and started to think that MVP or Dark would be left out. It only got worse when Inno was #5 because that meant either MVP or Dark was out. Then it got worse worse when MVP was not only in over Dark, but over Innovation. Then it was even worse with Rogue Serral Maru being the final 3 order. This list has no consistency and therefore no integrity as a ranking unfortunately, while they are nice and well researched articles to read (and nice list of recommended games). They both have a claim to #1 certainly, but within the context of this list - placing MVP above Innovation and leaving Dark out, placing soO above Dark, playing heckin Rain and TY over Dark... all of that should have led to Rogue Maru Serral being the final order (or possibly Maru Rogue Serral since Rogue had a high peak in a short time that was arguably higher than Maru's, but either way Serral clearly has the highest peak not just for 1-2 years but for 6 years, and should have been #1).
I don't remember what specific users said so obviously I meant in general.
I agree that the list lacks consistency but I'm not sure that's a problem. No matter what the ranking would be, people would still disagree with it and all have their own ranking in their head. I don't think it was ever intended to have "integrity" or authority on what the Goat ranking should be, it's just a (very well researched) opinion of one person, that was supposed to stimulate discussion and pay respects to the players.
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On March 19 2024 05:24 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 05:13 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 19 2024 02:55 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2024 02:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 19 2024 01:35 Fango wrote:On March 19 2024 01:09 Starcloud wrote:
Of course there are nuances and preferences that each individual can value differently. But it starts to be harder and harder to make a solid case for the claim that Maru is the GOAT, especially as he seems to get stomped by Serral in most of the tournaments. And what WombaT said earlier; All the time here people here accuse others for recency bias, although Serral has been at the top for 6 years. Its getting old already (pun intended).
People say recency bias because there are even sc2 casters saying Serral is number 1 because he beat Maru at IEM. It's like they didn't watch sc2 before 2018. People are also saying Maru has few achievements before then, which just shows they're reading Liquipedia results and never watched Proleague or Korean sc2 during Kespa. Because Maru was literally the best Starleague player of HotS when SC2 was as it's deepest competitively, and is probably the best Proleague player SC2 ever had. He also won the MVP of the most recent World Team League, 10 years after first Proleague award). People not caring about longevity is one thing, but you can't deny that other people might appreciate it more. Serral has his case of being the most dominant and best international player, but Maru has his case to be the best Teamleague and Starleague player, having the greatest longevity, and the best wins against bad balance. To say he doesn't have a solid case at all is silly. If other people appreciate longevity more, then MVP should not be #4 above Innovation and Dark should not be excluded from a top 10. There's no way to justify putting Maru above Serral if you're going to put MVP above Innovation and Dark. That's why people are saying this list's ranking is bogus. Swap Innovation to above MVP, and put Dark next to Inno/MVP (above or below is fine), and then you can put Maru at #1. It's really not fair to accuse people of not watching SC2, as if they aren't allowed to have their own opinions. People on TL are clearly putting much more value into Starleagues and Proleagues, but others put less. If a caster feels that Serral's play is great and that beating Maru in a WC has some strong metaphorical meaning, then that's valid. A lot of people see it the same way too. SC2 is on its twilight years now, and we had a relatively strong Maru (coming off 2 GSL wins in 2023) vs a Serral starting a new peak (the most dominant we've ever seen in any SC2 era). Maru got 4-0'd and went home with $80k less. Even if Maru performed really well in HotS, perhaps better than if a hypothetical Serral tried to compete in KR during HotS, Serral is just outperforming Maru 2018+ for 6 years now. In the now, in the most recent and current era of SC2, Serral is above Maru. You can call it recency bias, but I'd just say that it's reasonable to look at the newest state of things. If a player who continues competing gets eclipsed by another player, then that player has surpassed them. We can look back at the past results before they were surpassed, but the current day is more indicative of the future. Unlike physical sports where your age plays a huge part in your capability, thankfully in this case we don't have to worry about that, as Serral and Maru are nearly the same age anyways. Well, yeah I agree, there are inconsistencies with the list, you can extend that to TY being above Rain but Dark being below soO. But why the outrage only now when Serral gets placed below another player? We all know why, because he's a foreigner. People are certainly allowed to have their opinion and Serral being #1 is an absolute legitimate opinion, but calling the list "embarassing" or saying there's no way Maru is above Serral is stupid. If someone doesn't see how both players have a good claim to be #1 then yeah, I think they are biased and/or are not watching sc2 Are you referring to me or people in general? Because I've had huge issues with this list ever since i saw Rain at #10 and been very vocal about it to the point i was accused for "revisionist history". Then things got sus when I saw Ty make it, and soO above them, and started to think that MVP or Dark would be left out. It only got worse when Inno was #5 because that meant either MVP or Dark was out. Then it got worse worse when MVP was not only in over Dark, but over Innovation. Then it was even worse with Rogue Serral Maru being the final 3 order. This list has no consistency and therefore no integrity as a ranking unfortunately, while they are nice and well researched articles to read (and nice list of recommended games). They both have a claim to #1 certainly, but within the context of this list - placing MVP above Innovation and leaving Dark out, placing soO above Dark, playing heckin Rain and TY over Dark... all of that should have led to Rogue Maru Serral being the final order (or possibly Maru Rogue Serral since Rogue had a high peak in a short time that was arguably higher than Maru's, but either way Serral clearly has the highest peak not just for 1-2 years but for 6 years, and should have been #1). I don't remember what specific users said so obviously I meant in general. I agree that the list lacks consistency but I'm not sure that's a problem. No matter what the ranking would be, people would still disagree with it and all have their own ranking in their head. I don't think it was ever intended to have "integrity" or authority on what the Goat ranking should be, it's just a (very well researched) opinion of one person, that was supposed to stimulate discussion and pay respects to the players.
Aye I'm totally fine with a fun list to celebrate the players they personally feel deserve it.
The other issue I have with these articles, that I wonder is maybe also the reason the articles have attracted more negativity than perhaps normal, is that the author often uses authoritative or dismissive language. I understand being frustrated or even angry at people posting negatively or being toxic towards your work or opinions, but even to people not being toxic but simply having different opinions they would be accused for their "revisionist history" (saw it happen to someone else), or having not watched enough SC2, or not having as much or as good data as they found. So these things gave me the vibe that the author felt very confident about the research, statistics, and ranking methodology chosen, and tried to make a serious ranking. Another example that gave me this vibe is criticizing TL's previous GOAT series for being biased, as if the ranking itself was the most important thing and that it wasn't OK for that writer to celebrate the players they wanted to. I think the vibe around the articles is contributing towards the outcry regarding the top 2 placing. Going back to the last TL GOAT list, i don't remember the comments being as inflammatory (and i did go back to check too).
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France12899 Posts
On March 19 2024 04:17 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 04:06 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2024 04:01 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:50 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. In the recent interview with Crank Maru said it makes no difference to him if the tournament is in korea or not - his form only depends on the condition of his shoulder issues. Under this assumption both can be true, that Maru sometimes plays the best he's ever played and othertimes slips up more then when he was younger and had less issues with his shoulder On March 19 2024 03:53 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 03:42 Pandain wrote:On March 19 2024 03:00 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble. He isn’t always the best player, it mostly depends on which Maru shows up. But since Maru is getting a bit old he sometimes slip up a bit. Peak / prime Maru is the best player to have touched the game though, he is basically playing above the human skill ceiling at times it feels like What do you make of Maru's statement at 2023 Katowice that he was playing the best he's ever played? This is a very recent argument I've started to read on the forums - that Maru is somehow past his prime. The guy is literally continuing to dominate Korea and "fail" (for his high standards) at international tournaments - he's been doing that for 6 years now. If Maru, who continues to wreck face against everyone not named Serral, is past his prime, so is Serral, because in 2018 Serral literally didn't lose to anyone for a year. He is still playing scaringly well (his game on radhuset station vs Serral was some dark magic Terran play), I was mostly talking about mechanical skill, not overall skill. He has gained experience since HotS in several departments, but there is the shoulder issue as mentioned above, and a very slight decay mechanically at this age (which might or might not be preventable, athletes nowadays last longer than in the past, I am pretty sure esport athletes will follow a similar path) So he is not as consistent as in his prime in maintaining top skill across a tournament Serral on the other hand is the best at playing near his best consistently Interesting point, but has he ever said that his shoulder issues are getting worse with time or are you both just assuming that? Because my point is that if Maru had gone on to win Katowice 2024 I'm pretty sure we'd be clearly calling him still in his peak years, so you can't say he's past his prime just because he lost to Serral. There's no reason to actually think he's past his prime. His performances the last year are not really any different than any years before. It's the same pattern. It's the same Maru as forever. He wins in Korea and does extraordinarily well (but does not win) internationally. Yeah, in 2020/21 (I think) he said that his shoulder issues have gotten worse and he was seeking treatment for them and that's why he dropped out of a couple tournaments during that time Super fair, but again I'll highlight that I'm not actually sure his performances are any worse (or better) than they've been historically.
Which has to be expected since other KR players are mostly older than Maru, they might stagnate / decay at a similar rate. Plus most of his competitors aren’t playing anymore or weren’t at their level after military (notably TY in TvT, and Rogue is a big one as well since he managed to get Maru number quite often)
It’s not like his skill dropped off a cliff (except for a few weeks after the patch hit when he didn’t get past group stage in the GSL)
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