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On March 18 2024 15:46 Poopi wrote:
Maru is #1 and apparently some people don't realize how competitive proleague was and how op zerg has been in LOTV. Maru is called the 4th race for reasons.
The funny thing is that foreign biased people on Twitter / Reddit don’t care that Rogue is #3 behind Maru, despite having a better resume depending on how you weight WC win vs 2nd place. They only care that Serral is behind Maru, while Serral wasn’t good enough to play the best players in the world for more than half of the game life
Rogue got « robbed » as much as Serral in terms of WCs wins vs no WCs wins (albeit WESG is the same prizepool as a WC) but it’s a KR player so nobody bat an eye
Why should we care about Rogue that much ? You seriously claim that he should be ahead of Serral ? Or even Maru for that matter ? He is a very good player, but never has he been dominating or feeling like he is "invincible" or even best in the world. Yes, he is the most clutch player in the big tournament finals, but thats it. Its no small feat of course, but thats why he is nr. 3. Its maybe the best "reviewed" player on this whole list and is on the exact spot that 95% of people would put him on.
On March 18 2024 17:52 dedede wrote:
Exactly. If serral were korean, he would never receive as much hype from casters and fanboys. The fact that many foreign biased casters called serral goat in 2019 will never not annoy me, especially considering that zerg has been op since 2017.
I can be "ok" with some fanboys being biased, but casters/commentators being biased is just a blatant lack of professionalism.
Thats just BS and assumptions. Why wouldnt foreign people cheer for foreign players ? Koreans were dominating this game like 8 years straight. Even so badly that the game needed to make areal restrictions to get a foreinger to win any trophies. Then became Serral, who basically changed the scene forever. Of course casters were hyped about that. He has been the top dog almost constantly for 6 years since then. He is favourite to win every tournament he enters and he has winning % of 70-80 against all players in the world. Were the GOAT-talks premature at 2018-2019 ? Yeah, propably they were. But everybody with two working eyes and a brain could see that if this continues, he will be the GOAT. In addition that same talk started even then among all other pros, Koreans included. Is all that stupid as well ? You guys were whining from the start that even he wasnt good enough for whatever reason from 2018 and still the excuses continue.
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On March 18 2024 07:51 Coucou wrote:Crazy time to post this. Serral has been dominating the game completely the last four years Maru is #4 on http://aligulac.com/Serral has 71,6% over all winrate and comparably Maru has 65.3% On top of this Serral pretty much runs over Maru. The last result was 4-0 in the finals where they met From 2017 Katowice has been the hardest tournament by far. Code S gsl used to be the top tournament in ancient times but if you look at the players there now there are just a handful that can even take single games off of Serral. Serral is clearly currently the goat of sc2
Why should recent results be valued higher in an all time list. Maru also 3-0ed Serral multiple times
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On March 18 2024 17:52 dedede wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 15:46 Poopi wrote:On March 18 2024 14:40 dedede wrote:
Maru is #1 and apparently some people don't realize how competitive proleague was and how op zerg has been in LOTV. Maru is called the 4th race for reasons. The funny thing is that foreign biased people on Twitter / Reddit don’t care that Rogue is #3 behind Maru, despite having a better resume depending on how you weight WC win vs 2nd place. They only care that Serral is behind Maru, while Serral wasn’t good enough to play the best players in the world for more than half of the game life Rogue got « robbed » as much as Serral in terms of WCs wins vs no WCs wins (albeit WESG is the same prizepool as a WC) but it’s a KR player so nobody bat an eye Exactly. If serral were korean, he would never receive as much hype from casters and fanboys. The fact that many foreign biased casters called serral goat in 2019 will never not annoy me, especially considering that zerg has been op since 2017. I can be "ok" with some fanboys being biased, but casters/commentators being biased is just a blatant lack of professionalism.
Yeah the only reason some people are in "outrage" is because he's a foreigner. That's a fact. If Serral was korean some people would still consider him the Goat (because he definitely has a case) but they wouldn't be so fanboyish/immature about it. Especially not casters, there's no way Catz and Steadfast would make the posts they did in favor of korean xx being the Goat
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Northern Ireland24909 Posts
On March 18 2024 19:54 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 07:51 Coucou wrote:Crazy time to post this. Serral has been dominating the game completely the last four years Maru is #4 on http://aligulac.com/Serral has 71,6% over all winrate and comparably Maru has 65.3% On top of this Serral pretty much runs over Maru. The last result was 4-0 in the finals where they met From 2017 Katowice has been the hardest tournament by far. Code S gsl used to be the top tournament in ancient times but if you look at the players there now there are just a handful that can even take single games off of Serral. Serral is clearly currently the goat of sc2 Why should recent results be valued higher in an all time list. Maru also 3-0ed Serral multiple times
I mean sure but you get to the point where Serral’s been at this level or close for 6, closing 7 years and it gets increasingly dubious to classify that as recency bias on the ‘recency’ aspect
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The articles have been great fun to read - informative, interesting, well-written, albeit with one glaring strangeness, now that everything's concluded. Where is Dark? I feel like some manner of elaboration is owed to the fans who rightly notice how he eclipses several players in this list by the list's own - fun, but also outright mercurial - standards of 'greatness'. What happened? Is it not a little weird how a player widely speculated to be in the higher half of the list (before the release of the last few articles) ended up not making it at all? Hope there will be honorable mentions!
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Agree to disagree on the final placements. Nice reads regardless!
Curious to see the final piece "The GOAT list and how I accidentally forgot about Dark" 
and maybe a disclaimer how Maru's longevity is valued this high but then MVP is #4 and Dark is out
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On March 18 2024 20:30 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 17:52 dedede wrote:On March 18 2024 15:46 Poopi wrote:On March 18 2024 14:40 dedede wrote:
Maru is #1 and apparently some people don't realize how competitive proleague was and how op zerg has been in LOTV. Maru is called the 4th race for reasons. The funny thing is that foreign biased people on Twitter / Reddit don’t care that Rogue is #3 behind Maru, despite having a better resume depending on how you weight WC win vs 2nd place. They only care that Serral is behind Maru, while Serral wasn’t good enough to play the best players in the world for more than half of the game life Rogue got « robbed » as much as Serral in terms of WCs wins vs no WCs wins (albeit WESG is the same prizepool as a WC) but it’s a KR player so nobody bat an eye Exactly. If serral were korean, he would never receive as much hype from casters and fanboys. The fact that many foreign biased casters called serral goat in 2019 will never not annoy me, especially considering that zerg has been op since 2017. I can be "ok" with some fanboys being biased, but casters/commentators being biased is just a blatant lack of professionalism. Yeah the only reason some people are in "outrage" is because he's a foreigner. That's a fact. If Serral was korean some people would still consider him the Goat (because he definitely has a case) but they wouldn't be so fanboyish/immature about it. Especially not casters, there's no way Catz and Steadfast would make the posts they did in favor of korean xx being the Goat
there has never been a korean with the same dominance as serral, consistently 7.3k mmr while the 2nd and 3rd best players are sitting at 7k, a favorite vs anyone he faces
the only guy who had comparable periods where he felt untouchable was maybe innovation, but he fumbled so many times and then lost to weak players or just didnt practice for a few months, for whatever reason lost his aura
serral has been consistently dominant for 6 years, with really high peaks, but even during his 'lows', he still looks like the best player in the world
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This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has.
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This feels like putting NaDa over Flash because NaDa was around for longer, whereas this is just wrong. Serral is the strongest and has an aura of invincibility that no other player has.
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On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has.
I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player?
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On March 18 2024 22:10 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 20:30 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 17:52 dedede wrote:On March 18 2024 15:46 Poopi wrote:On March 18 2024 14:40 dedede wrote:
Maru is #1 and apparently some people don't realize how competitive proleague was and how op zerg has been in LOTV. Maru is called the 4th race for reasons. The funny thing is that foreign biased people on Twitter / Reddit don’t care that Rogue is #3 behind Maru, despite having a better resume depending on how you weight WC win vs 2nd place. They only care that Serral is behind Maru, while Serral wasn’t good enough to play the best players in the world for more than half of the game life Rogue got « robbed » as much as Serral in terms of WCs wins vs no WCs wins (albeit WESG is the same prizepool as a WC) but it’s a KR player so nobody bat an eye Exactly. If serral were korean, he would never receive as much hype from casters and fanboys. The fact that many foreign biased casters called serral goat in 2019 will never not annoy me, especially considering that zerg has been op since 2017. I can be "ok" with some fanboys being biased, but casters/commentators being biased is just a blatant lack of professionalism. Yeah the only reason some people are in "outrage" is because he's a foreigner. That's a fact. If Serral was korean some people would still consider him the Goat (because he definitely has a case) but they wouldn't be so fanboyish/immature about it. Especially not casters, there's no way Catz and Steadfast would make the posts they did in favor of korean xx being the Goat there has never been a korean with the same dominance as serral, consistently 7.3k mmr while the 2nd and 3rd best players are sitting at 7k, a favorite vs anyone he faces the only guy who had comparable periods where he felt untouchable was maybe innovation, but he fumbled so many times and then lost to weak players or just didnt practice for a few months, for whatever reason lost his aura serral has been consistently dominant for 6 years, with really high peaks, but even during his 'lows', he still looks like the best player in the world
Exactly, the question wouldn't even get asked if a Korean had reached the finals of more than every 2nd big tournament he participated in and won more than every 3rd for the last 6 years.
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On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player?
hhh，However, in the eyes of many people, MARU can hardly be considered a GOAT without a world champion
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On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player?
Do you know？
in china Many people think that Serral is the highest mountain in SC2 and Maru is the longest river in SC2, and many people think they should be tied for first place
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On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player?
I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached.
When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok.
Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP.
If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble.
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On March 19 2024 00:45 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player? I wouldn't even say Serral is the best player. He's currently the best Zerg and makes more effective use of OP Zerg units than anyone else - that's the magic of his dominance. But I don't think the ceiling of Zerg's full potential has been reached. When race advantage is removed (i.e. ZvZ), Serral has been more vulnerable. Dark and Reynor both have 4-0'ed him, Rogue made him look hopeless in TSL8 (not long before retirement), and more recently he's lost to Solar, even Ragnarok. Skill wise, I still consider Maru superior. Serral just brings a gun to knife fights in ZvT and ZvP. If one day a Zerg player gets on par with peak Maru's level of play, there's no hope left for anyone else. Serral is not far off, and Reynor has a slim chance to get there esp. if he learns to be humble.
You should know that two years ago, Serral also defeated Dark, Rogue, Reynor，No one can guarantee that they will remain number one in the world for a long time in all their confrontations, even if it is MARU
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On March 18 2024 23:45 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 23:27 CerebrateHector wrote:
This is just BS lol. Serral just destroyed everyone at IEM, and has that unstoppable aura that no one else has. I mean, I can understand being upset that your favourite player is not on top, but this argument (I've heard it quite a bit now) is complete horseshit and shows you don't know what Goat stands for. I honestly don't understand this, you think Serral must be the Goat because he won the latest tournament and is currently the best player?
Well it basically boils down to this; Do you favour more the longer and succesful career, or do you value the shorter, but more dominant one ? Miz favours the longer career and Kespa era. I can accept that. But how on earth does that compare to Dark not being in the top 10 ? Same as how is MVP on the 4th place ? The logic in that doesnt add up.
Also, if we look Marus notable tournament finishes from the start of this post, we can see that most of his notable results come after 2018, from which Serral has also been on his peak. Of course Maru has had other success before that too (Pro League), but still the majority of his trophycase including GSL victories have come from the start of 2018. But of course, Maru has had a longer career and has been in a top for a long time. So the career longevity on top goes to Maru.
Now we come to the second point, which is GSL vs World Championships + of course other success in weekenders. Propably we can agree that the first 4 GSL:s were still very competetive and those were very impressive wins. The other 3, while of course being nice wins, cant be accounted with same prestige as those original 4. Serral has 3 WC:s which have had top competition also. Additionally Serral has won a lot more weekenders, which have had variable difficulty of opponents compared to Maru. Of course Maru hasnt had opportunity to participate in them all in the first place, but thats just how the rules have been. Anyhow I think we can generally say that Serral has been more succesful in the tournaments.
Then lastly, the third point. The amount of dominance and winning % in general. Also you can take in account the matches between these candidates as part of the evidence. And this point goes to Serral since all the data has been presented here and in general Serral has been the most dominant player for last 6 years. Of course there are little breaks on that timeline, but still that is something that nobody has done before. He has been the favourite to win every tournament he enters since 2019, and thats just impressive in itself.
Of course there are nuances and preferences that each individual can value differently. But it starts to be harder and harder to make a solid case for the claim that Maru is the GOAT, especially as he seems to get stomped by Serral in most of the tournaments. And what WombaT said earlier; All the time here people here accuse others for recency bias, although Serral has been at the top for 6 years. Its getting old already (pun intended).
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On March 19 2024 01:09 Starcloud wrote:
Of course there are nuances and preferences that each individual can value differently. But it starts to be harder and harder to make a solid case for the claim that Maru is the GOAT, especially as he seems to get stomped by Serral in most of the tournaments. And what WombaT said earlier; All the time here people here accuse others for recency bias, although Serral has been at the top for 6 years. Its getting old already (pun intended).
People say recency bias because there are even sc2 casters saying Serral is number 1 because he beat Maru at IEM. It's like they didn't watch sc2 before 2018.
People are also saying Maru has few achievements before then, which just shows they're reading Liquipedia results and never watched Proleague or Korean sc2 during Kespa. Because Maru was literally the best Starleague player of HotS when SC2 was as it's deepest competitively, and is probably the best Proleague player SC2 ever had.
He also won the MVP of the most recent World Team League, 10 years after first Proleague award). People not caring about longevity is one thing, but you can't deny that other people might appreciate it more.
Serral has his case of being the most dominant and best international player, but Maru has his case to be the best Teamleague and Starleague player, having the greatest longevity, and the best wins against bad balance. To say he doesn't have a solid case at all is silly.
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Bisutopia19225 Posts
On March 18 2024 17:52 dedede wrote:
Exactly. If serral were korean, he would never receive as much hype from casters and fanboys. The fact that many foreign biased casters called serral goat in 2019 will never not annoy me, especially considering that zerg has been op since 2017.
I can be "ok" with some fanboys being biased, but casters/commentators being biased is just a blatant lack of professionalism.
If Serral were Korean, I'd actually lower his GOAT status because it would mean he was unable to win a GSL in his last decade of playing lol. And if that were the case, it'd lower his seed into tournaments and make all his runs harder.
Since he's not, I still think he has a vaild case for #1.
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On March 19 2024 01:35 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 01:09 Starcloud wrote:
Of course there are nuances and preferences that each individual can value differently. But it starts to be harder and harder to make a solid case for the claim that Maru is the GOAT, especially as he seems to get stomped by Serral in most of the tournaments. And what WombaT said earlier; All the time here people here accuse others for recency bias, although Serral has been at the top for 6 years. Its getting old already (pun intended).
People say recency bias because there are even sc2 casters saying Serral is number 1 because he beat Maru at IEM. It's like they didn't watch sc2 before 2018. People are also saying Maru has few achievements before then, which just shows they're reading Liquipedia results and never watched Proleague or Korean sc2 during Kespa. Because Maru was literally the best Starleague player of HotS when SC2 was as it's deepest competitively, and is probably the best Proleague player SC2 ever had. He also won the MVP of the most recent World Team League, 10 years after first Proleague award). People not caring about longevity is one thing, but you can't deny that other people might appreciate it more. Serral has his case of being the most dominant and best international player, but Maru has his case to be the best Teamleague and Starleague player, having the greatest longevity, and the best wins against bad balance. To say he doesn't have a solid case at all is silly.
If other people appreciate longevity more, then MVP should not be #4 above Innovation and Dark should not be excluded from a top 10. There's no way to justify putting Maru above Serral if you're going to put MVP above Innovation and Dark. That's why people are saying this list's ranking is bogus. Swap Innovation to above MVP, and put Dark next to Inno/MVP (above or below is fine), and then you can put Maru at #1.
It's really not fair to accuse people of not watching SC2, as if they aren't allowed to have their own opinions. People on TL are clearly putting much more value into Starleagues and Proleagues, but others put less. If a caster feels that Serral's play is great and that beating Maru in a WC has some strong metaphorical meaning, then that's valid. A lot of people see it the same way too. SC2 is on its twilight years now, and we had a relatively strong Maru (coming off 2 GSL wins in 2023) vs a Serral starting a new peak (the most dominant we've ever seen in any SC2 era). Maru got 4-0'd and went home with $80k less.
Even if Maru performed really well in HotS, perhaps better than if a hypothetical Serral tried to compete in KR during HotS, Serral is just outperforming Maru 2018+ for 6 years now. In the now, in the most recent and current era of SC2, Serral is above Maru. You can call it recency bias, but I'd just say that it's reasonable to look at the newest state of things. If a player who continues competing gets eclipsed by another player, then that player has surpassed them. We can look back at the past results before they were surpassed, but the current day is more indicative of the future. Unlike physical sports where your age plays a huge part in your capability, thankfully in this case we don't have to worry about that, as Serral and Maru are nearly the same age anyways.
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On March 19 2024 02:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 01:35 Fango wrote:On March 19 2024 01:09 Starcloud wrote:
Of course there are nuances and preferences that each individual can value differently. But it starts to be harder and harder to make a solid case for the claim that Maru is the GOAT, especially as he seems to get stomped by Serral in most of the tournaments. And what WombaT said earlier; All the time here people here accuse others for recency bias, although Serral has been at the top for 6 years. Its getting old already (pun intended).
People say recency bias because there are even sc2 casters saying Serral is number 1 because he beat Maru at IEM. It's like they didn't watch sc2 before 2018. People are also saying Maru has few achievements before then, which just shows they're reading Liquipedia results and never watched Proleague or Korean sc2 during Kespa. Because Maru was literally the best Starleague player of HotS when SC2 was as it's deepest competitively, and is probably the best Proleague player SC2 ever had. He also won the MVP of the most recent World Team League, 10 years after first Proleague award). People not caring about longevity is one thing, but you can't deny that other people might appreciate it more. Serral has his case of being the most dominant and best international player, but Maru has his case to be the best Teamleague and Starleague player, having the greatest longevity, and the best wins against bad balance. To say he doesn't have a solid case at all is silly. If other people appreciate longevity more, then MVP should not be #4 above Innovation and Dark should not be excluded from a top 10. There's no way to justify putting Maru above Serral if you're going to put MVP above Innovation and Dark. That's why people are saying this list's ranking is bogus. Swap Innovation to above MVP, and put Dark next to Inno/MVP (above or below is fine), and then you can put Maru at #1. It's really not fair to accuse people of not watching SC2, as if they aren't allowed to have their own opinions. People on TL are clearly putting much more value into Starleagues and Proleagues, but others put less. If a caster feels that Serral's play is great and that beating Maru in a WC has some strong metaphorical meaning, then that's valid. A lot of people see it the same way too. SC2 is on its twilight years now, and we had a relatively strong Maru (coming off 2 GSL wins in 2023) vs a Serral starting a new peak (the most dominant we've ever seen in any SC2 era). Maru got 4-0'd and went home with $80k less. Even if Maru performed really well in HotS, perhaps better than if a hypothetical Serral tried to compete in KR during HotS, Serral is just outperforming Maru 2018+ for 6 years now. In the now, in the most recent and current era of SC2, Serral is above Maru. You can call it recency bias, but I'd just say that it's reasonable to look at the newest state of things. If a player who continues competing gets eclipsed by another player, then that player has surpassed them. We can look back at the past results before they were surpassed, but the current day is more indicative of the future. Unlike physical sports where your age plays a huge part in your capability, thankfully in this case we don't have to worry about that, as Serral and Maru are nearly the same age anyways.
Well, yeah I agree, there are inconsistencies with the list, you can extend that to TY being above Rain but Dark being below soO.
But why the outrage only now when Serral gets placed below another player? We all know why, because he's a foreigner.
People are certainly allowed to have their opinion and Serral being #1 is an absolute legitimate opinion, but calling the list "embarassing" or saying there's no way Maru is above Serral is stupid. If someone doesn't see how both players have a good claim to be #1 then yeah, I think they are biased and/or are not watching sc2
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EPT
