EPT#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 13
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muppet70
Sweden72 Posts
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Telephone
United States147 Posts
On March 17 2024 15:36 Delish wrote: serral > maru rogue > maru maru can lose oliveria in IEM katowice final maru sucks You're talking about a tournament where Serral was eliminated in the quarterfinals, and Maru got second place. Somehow in your mind this is evidence that "serral > maru". | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26603 Posts
On March 18 2024 02:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I love this list, fresh take! I love sOs so seeing him valued at #4 is amazing. And it doesn't seem biased since you ranked Reynor so highly, even above Innovation. I was always curious about Byun though - I see many people mention him, but in my memory didn't he only win 1 GSL and 1 WCS and then... not much else? I'd probably swap MVP in for Byun, and I'd say that list is quite solid. I feel Stats getting 2nd places at WCS counts for a lot despite not winning one himself - especially if Serral is the one he lost to. (That's also a reason i often lean towards ranking Stats above Zest on my list, after remembering that him not winning a WC is due to losing to Serral at least one of the times). It’s got a huge weighting for World Champs Now it wouldn’t personally be how I’d weight things, but it is at least a consistent standard on first glance! Sheer quality of play, consistency and volume of achievement over time, I rate weekenders pretty high if the field is good, I know some place them way below WCs and GSLs, I wouldn’t stick them on the same tier but not a million miles off. Byun, not for me. Perhaps it was because I was on hiatus and wasn’t actually there for the fantastic storyline and hype, but he’d be floating around the top 15/20 for me. Only really was winning things in one particular meta, and other players don’t have that strike against them. Good last post btw! I’d probably place Taeja above Byun certainly, top 4, perhaps even 3 Terran behind Maru, Inno and (possibly, undecided!) Mvp. Zero clue where I’d stick him in a ranking across all races though | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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goldensail
132 Posts
On March 18 2024 03:38 Balnazza wrote: I won't have that discussion again, knowing I'm somewhat the only person bothered by it, so I accept that. But I still will say that this is an extremly stupid comment that completly misses the core of the argument. I'm glad you realize you're the only person bothered by the fact that pro gamers from another country don't speak your favored language. I'll leave it to the readers to decide which comment is extremely stupid. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1281 Posts
On March 18 2024 13:13 goldensail wrote: I'm glad you realize you're the only person bothered by the fact that pro gamers from another country don't speak your favored language. I'll leave it to the readers to decide which comment is extremely stupid. Still not even close to the argument, but sure. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26603 Posts
Always something I’d pondered, albeit not anything that annoys or frustrates me at all. I guess a language barrier and translation you do miss some emotional nuance, but if folks gave better interviews that would help. Not just Koreans mind. Hey I get they’re pro gamers, not media personalities I’m watching for their playing chops. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On March 18 2024 12:00 WombaT wrote: It’s got a huge weighting for World Champs Now it wouldn’t personally be how I’d weight things, but it is at least a consistent standard on first glance! Sheer quality of play, consistency and volume of achievement over time, I rate weekenders pretty high if the field is good, I know some place them way below WCs and GSLs, I wouldn’t stick them on the same tier but not a million miles off. Byun, not for me. Perhaps it was because I was on hiatus and wasn’t actually there for the fantastic storyline and hype, but he’d be floating around the top 15/20 for me. Only really was winning things in one particular meta, and other players don’t have that strike against them. Good last post btw! I’d probably place Taeja above Byun certainly, top 4, perhaps even 3 Terran behind Maru, Inno and (possibly, undecided!) Mvp. Zero clue where I’d stick him in a ranking across all races though Ooh damn you're right the WCS weighting makes it make so much sense, i can't believe i didn't notice it haha. The 2 money men Rogue and sOs in the top 4 and Reynor close behind them. Yeah maybe I don't really get the Byun hype either, i feel like winning even just 1 WCS isn't near enough to be top 15, maybe top 20 (there are other world championship winners that no one would even think is close to top 20), and pairing it with 1 single GSL win over 10+ years of competing also doesn't impress me too much. I'd personally put the likes of Nestea and probably Terrans like MMA and Polt above him. Also thanks haha. I felt i was just saying things many other people were already saying, minus the random shilling for Taeja. I would definitely put Taeja in my top 4 Terrans too, it's close between him and MVP. It's been a long time and i didn't watch HotS as closely as I did WoL, else maybe it'd be much easier to go by feeling. It was kinda crazy to me realizing that players like Innovation and Life would commonly drown in pools at premiere weekender tournaments. That competition seems way harder than modern Code S or a typical modern weekender, as sad as that sounds. So for Taeja to have not drowned and won so many just rose my opinion of him even higher than where my memory put him. | ||
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goldensail
132 Posts
On March 18 2024 13:50 WombaT wrote: Are progamers atypical in Korea to have so few of their number speak any English (at least confident enough to do so publicly)? Always something I’d pondered, albeit not anything that annoys or frustrates me at all. I guess a language barrier and translation you do miss some emotional nuance, but if folks gave better interviews that would help. Not just Koreans mind. Hey I get they’re pro gamers, not media personalities I’m watching for their playing chops. I've only traveled to Korea but in general most common folks in East Asia (China, Japan, Korea) don't speak much English. The languages are just too different. For pro gamers who grew up in team houses, they probably didn't spend much attention in English classes so I imagine they're below an already-low-bar average  If you watch Crank's interviews with some of them (there's a recent series where he interviewed Maru, Hero, Dark, and Gumi), their personalities come out a lot more, so the language barrier is very real. Add to that the common challenge of public speaking and it's rare for the Korean pros to vocally impress on stage. But like you said most of us are not there to hear a motivation speech | ||
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dedede
United States116 Posts
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Pentarp
227 Posts
On March 18 2024 03:41 Nakajin wrote: Maybe ''comradery'' is not the right word, there was a rivalry between foreigners and Koreans and some very real tension between the interests of both as you said. But what I meant is that people seemed to know each other, Polt might have been Korean, but he was also ''Captain America'', MC was the star of every stream, joking around with casters and players the way Reynor or Harstem do these days. Jaedong might not have been able to speak three words of English back to back, but you still knew he was Geoff guy all the way. Overall, it felt like we were moving in a good direction where we could appreciate players as people rather than nationality. Sometimes I'm not sure a lot of people are fans of Maru, herO, Dark, Cure, etc... feels like a lot of people just want Koreans to win (or to lose). I agree that there were a lot of pompous Korean elitists back in the day. It's not "pompous elitists" if its true. Korea dominated back in the day. Thus, the players who dominate the Korean scene were the best of the best. These days, its a much different scene. But we're talking Greatest of ALL TIME. This includes Maru's long and storied string of victories dating back to 2013 when the Korean scene had yet to feel the full brunt of the regional-welfare for Foreign players. Some people are mad now. IDGAF. It is what it is. In an open, "free-trade", environment, Korea dominated and big bro had to step in to help. I'm not against it. But let's not pretend that Koreans did not kick a ton of ass. ps. The foreign scene had a TON of respect for players like Huk, and even the Grack, who could go toe to toe with the Koreans (at times). Also, Happy St. Gracktrick's Day bitches. | ||
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Pentarp
227 Posts
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Pentarp
227 Posts
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dedede
United States116 Posts
On March 18 2024 01:09 Fango wrote: Oh god. remembering casters calling Serral in the GOAT in 2019 and how forced it was. It was impossible to watch his matches that year because of how biased the casts were. Even when he lost to Stats or soO or Zest or whoever you'd hear nothing about them in the audio feed. I don't know if they were all told to force the narrative or if foreigners are all just Serral fanatics, but it was damn sure hard to watch Same here. I find it incredibly annoying as well. It's also funny to see how those pros/casters/fanboys get outraged by this article and call people koreaboos given their own foreigner-biased perspectives. | ||
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goldensail
132 Posts
On March 18 2024 14:40 Pentarp wrote: It's not "pompous elitists" if its true. Korea dominated back in the day. Thus, the players who dominate the Korean scene were the best of the best. These days, its a much different scene. But we're talking Greatest of ALL TIME. This includes Maru's long and storied string of victories dating back to 2013 when the Korean scene had yet to feel the full brunt of the regional-welfare for Foreign players. Some people are mad now. IDGAF. It is what it is. In an open, "free-trade", environment, Korea dominated and big bro had to step in to help. I'm not against it. But let's not pretend that Koreans did not kick a ton of ass. ps. The foreign scene had a TON of respect for players like Huk and even the Grack who could go toe to toe with the Koreans (at times). Yup. Newer generations of viewers have a recency bias. If you only watch games from recent years and believe the game is balanced, you can easily get passionate in believing that Serral is the greatest. For those who watched SC2 from the beginning, regardless of your opinion on who the GOAT is, you should at least acknowledge it's a very difficult call. For people like myself who believe the game is Zerg favored, we believe the ranking decision is more than justified. Of course, naming the GOAT in any sport NEVER results in a consensus, and I imagine Miz prepared himself for the controversy a heavy-weight piece like this is bound to arouse. If you are knowledgeable about the game, ready to do research, can reason well, obviously you're free to present your own alternative theory. At the end of the day, as a fan I want to watch exciting games by great players on a level playing field that is fair to the participants and entertaining for the audience. Let me witness mesmerizing action that stretches my imagination on what humans can do. Let the players be empowered but not carried by the tools at their disposal. And let the audience retain their own views about who the GOAT is. | ||
Poopi
France12911 Posts
On March 18 2024 14:40 dedede wrote: Maru is #1 and apparently some people don't realize how competitive proleague was and how op zerg has been in LOTV. Maru is called the 4th race for reasons. The funny thing is that foreign biased people on Twitter / Reddit don’t care that Rogue is #3 behind Maru, despite having a better resume depending on how you weight WC win vs 2nd place. They only care that Serral is behind Maru, while Serral wasn’t good enough to play the best players in the world for more than half of the game life Rogue got « robbed » as much as Serral in terms of WCs wins vs no WCs wins (albeit WESG is the same prizepool as a WC) but it’s a KR player so nobody bat an eye | ||
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Ataraxia80
1 Post
I'm from Finland, and a huge Serral fanboy ("boy", dammit, I'm 44 yrs old nerdy father) who's been following and playing SC thru it's whole history on and off. Who has zero disagreements with the article series. Just maybe different points of view. Goat discussions in sports are tricky ones, just based on who weighs more what. Said here probably numerous times already. Like Miz wrote (and I hope more Serral fans that got probably upset should pay attention to) that Serral is probably, and seen as most of his peers, closest to the most perfect player who's touched the game. I think so also, and ofcourse that's also debatable, different races make things nonlinear to judge and blablabla. Just valuing most the general concensus among those who understand the most of everything involved there. So just by going with that, head to head results, and most importantly - my own fanbias, of course, Serral is no. 1, easily. But most importantly, at the same time, I totally understand and zero disagree that Maru is no. 1 here. Seen thru the achievements and overall way longer history of greatness etc, I think also that he's well deserving no. 1. A player who's in the pantheon of the very few in the game. AND whose matches I'm every time most excited to watch! Thanks to everyone involved still making content like this and keeping the game somewhat alive, that's meaning everyone still playing the game. So thank YOU. Bunches of love, Janne | ||
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dedede
United States116 Posts
On March 18 2024 15:46 Poopi wrote: The funny thing is that foreign biased people on Twitter / Reddit don’t care that Rogue is #3 behind Maru, despite having a better resume depending on how you weight WC win vs 2nd place. They only care that Serral is behind Maru, while Serral wasn’t good enough to play the best players in the world for more than half of the game life Rogue got « robbed » as much as Serral in terms of WCs wins vs no WCs wins (albeit WESG is the same prizepool as a WC) but it’s a KR player so nobody bat an eye Exactly. If serral were korean, he would never receive as much hype from casters and fanboys. The fact that many foreign biased casters called serral goat in 2019 will never not annoy me, especially considering that zerg has been op since 2017. I can be "ok" with some fanboys being biased, but casters/commentators being biased is just a blatant lack of professionalism. | ||
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jack_less
78 Posts
On March 18 2024 14:40 dedede wrote: Maru is called the 4th race for reasons. sounds like "hype from casters and fanboys" too? and the pseudo argument "zerg is op since 2017" is not really true. just look at GSL 2016 until now Zerg was never overrepresentative. on the contrary, there are quarterfinals without zergs. Compared to Terran. Zergs were overrepresentative in WCS, funnily enough neeb (toss) dominated here until serral took over in 2018. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1153 Posts
nice list Mizenhauer!  Serralfans btfo  no GSL, no GOAT!imagine getting this upset over a list... no need to be mad lmao terran master race toss mad, zerg jelly! | ||
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