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On March 18 2024 00:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 23:40 Comedy wrote:On March 17 2024 22:09 Durnuu wrote:On March 17 2024 21:54 Comedy wrote:
let's be real serral holds the goat title unquestionably also. Mizenhauser is just one person and the vast majority of people that follow the game would pick serral. There's no doubt in my mind about that. Just because a majority of people say something doesn't make it right. The majority, as you say, has a triple bias of 1) recency, 2) liking macro games over anything else, which Serral is indeed the best at and had a favourable meta for it throughout his career, 3) foreign bias. As for the thread and this general ranking, I have no horse in this race and don't care either way, but I do find amusing how the value of Blizzcon and IEM Katowice skyrocketed in the eyes of fans once foreigners started winning them. No one was calling sOs the GOAT at the end of HotS despite winning 2 Blizzcons and an IEM, and in fact I doubt "the majority of people" would have had him in the top 10. One last point I'll make: let's create an imaginary Broodwar player, who happened to win every single ASL in the last 6 years. Yes, I'm exaggerating on purpose. But surely no one in their right mind would call them the GOAT, with most Broodwar players having retired, some being part-time, etc. Unless that imaginary player was white, perhaps?...  the fact you bring up sos just shows that all you people do is look at results and don't look at the games. you could see with your own eyes how sos won those tournaments. by coming up with clever cheeses and beating people better than him at micro/macro/multitask with specially crafted cheeses. Everyone can also see with their own eyes how serral plays. He wins tournaments by being better at every aspect of the game than his opponent. Scouting/Macro/Micro/Multitask/Builds. It's easy for anyone who actually plays and watches the game to tell he is the goat, that's why picking maru is so controversial to begin with and you see all actual progamers and casters on twitter expressing themselves in disagreement with this list Lol. If a brood war player won the last 6 ASL's and was dominant in daily proleague and spoon matches with a 80% winrate he would seriously open up the goat conversation if he looked like he was more dominant than flash. Brood war players are getting better still, just like SC2 players. The fact that Serral didn't dominate during the kespa era is only because he was a teenager that was in highschool. If he had reached his 2018 level just a few years prior (if he was born earlier), he would dominate that era too. Nah it's easy for anyone watching and playing the game to tell that Maru is the Goat, foreign progamers and casters just want to back their favorite player because he's a foreigner, they were calling Serral the Goat in 2019 when he wasn't even top 10 which proves their extreme bias.
I've already explained this to you before. If an unknown player showed up next week in an ESL open cup and showcased better play than serral, reynor, clem, maru, etc. You could say, that's the best player I've ever seen. And he had 0 tournament wins.  Tournament wins are just a product of skill and time. If that unknown player kept up that level of play that was the best that's ever been seen, he'd have all the tournament wins to go along with it in a couple of years. So nothing wrong with calling serral the best player in 2019 (he was the world champ already at that time after winning blizzcon and every single wcs event in 2018).
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On March 18 2024 00:23 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 00:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 17 2024 23:40 Comedy wrote:On March 17 2024 22:09 Durnuu wrote:On March 17 2024 21:54 Comedy wrote:
let's be real serral holds the goat title unquestionably also. Mizenhauser is just one person and the vast majority of people that follow the game would pick serral. There's no doubt in my mind about that. Just because a majority of people say something doesn't make it right. The majority, as you say, has a triple bias of 1) recency, 2) liking macro games over anything else, which Serral is indeed the best at and had a favourable meta for it throughout his career, 3) foreign bias. As for the thread and this general ranking, I have no horse in this race and don't care either way, but I do find amusing how the value of Blizzcon and IEM Katowice skyrocketed in the eyes of fans once foreigners started winning them. No one was calling sOs the GOAT at the end of HotS despite winning 2 Blizzcons and an IEM, and in fact I doubt "the majority of people" would have had him in the top 10. One last point I'll make: let's create an imaginary Broodwar player, who happened to win every single ASL in the last 6 years. Yes, I'm exaggerating on purpose. But surely no one in their right mind would call them the GOAT, with most Broodwar players having retired, some being part-time, etc. Unless that imaginary player was white, perhaps?... the fact you bring up sos just shows that all you people do is look at results and don't look at the games. you could see with your own eyes how sos won those tournaments. by coming up with clever cheeses and beating people better than him at micro/macro/multitask with specially crafted cheeses. Everyone can also see with their own eyes how serral plays. He wins tournaments by being better at every aspect of the game than his opponent. Scouting/Macro/Micro/Multitask/Builds. It's easy for anyone who actually plays and watches the game to tell he is the goat, that's why picking maru is so controversial to begin with and you see all actual progamers and casters on twitter expressing themselves in disagreement with this list Lol. If a brood war player won the last 6 ASL's and was dominant in daily proleague and spoon matches with a 80% winrate he would seriously open up the goat conversation if he looked like he was more dominant than flash. Brood war players are getting better still, just like SC2 players. The fact that Serral didn't dominate during the kespa era is only because he was a teenager that was in highschool. If he had reached his 2018 level just a few years prior (if he was born earlier), he would dominate that era too. Nah it's easy for anyone watching and playing the game to tell that Maru is the Goat, foreign progamers and casters just want to back their favorite player because he's a foreigner, they were calling Serral the Goat in 2019 when he wasn't even top 10 which proves their extreme bias. I've already explained this to you before. If an unknown player showed up next week in an ESL open cup and showcased better play than serral, reynor, clem, maru, etc. You could say, that's the best player I've ever seen. And he had 0 tournament wins. Tournament wins are just a product of skill and time. If that unknown player kept up that level of play that was the best that's ever been seen, he'd have all the tournament wins to go along with it in a couple of years. So nothing wrong with calling serral the best player in 2019.
Greatest != best
Also it's impossible to compare skill level across different eras in completely different versions of the game
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On March 18 2024 00:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 23:40 Comedy wrote:On March 17 2024 22:09 Durnuu wrote:On March 17 2024 21:54 Comedy wrote:
let's be real serral holds the goat title unquestionably also. Mizenhauser is just one person and the vast majority of people that follow the game would pick serral. There's no doubt in my mind about that. Just because a majority of people say something doesn't make it right. The majority, as you say, has a triple bias of 1) recency, 2) liking macro games over anything else, which Serral is indeed the best at and had a favourable meta for it throughout his career, 3) foreign bias. As for the thread and this general ranking, I have no horse in this race and don't care either way, but I do find amusing how the value of Blizzcon and IEM Katowice skyrocketed in the eyes of fans once foreigners started winning them. No one was calling sOs the GOAT at the end of HotS despite winning 2 Blizzcons and an IEM, and in fact I doubt "the majority of people" would have had him in the top 10. One last point I'll make: let's create an imaginary Broodwar player, who happened to win every single ASL in the last 6 years. Yes, I'm exaggerating on purpose. But surely no one in their right mind would call them the GOAT, with most Broodwar players having retired, some being part-time, etc. Unless that imaginary player was white, perhaps?... the fact you bring up sos just shows that all you people do is look at results and don't look at the games. you could see with your own eyes how sos won those tournaments. by coming up with clever cheeses and beating people better than him at micro/macro/multitask with specially crafted cheeses. Everyone can also see with their own eyes how serral plays. He wins tournaments by being better at every aspect of the game than his opponent. Scouting/Macro/Micro/Multitask/Builds. It's easy for anyone who actually plays and watches the game to tell he is the goat, that's why picking maru is so controversial to begin with and you see all actual progamers and casters on twitter expressing themselves in disagreement with this list Lol. If a brood war player won the last 6 ASL's and was dominant in daily proleague and spoon matches with a 80% winrate he would seriously open up the goat conversation if he looked like he was more dominant than flash. Brood war players are getting better still, just like SC2 players. The fact that Serral didn't dominate during the kespa era is only because he was a teenager that was in highschool. If he had reached his 2018 level just a few years prior (if he was born earlier), he would dominate that era too. Nah it's easy for anyone watching and playing the game to tell that Maru is the Goat, foreign progamers and casters just want to back their favorite player because he's a foreigner, they were calling Serral the Goat in 2019 when he wasn't even top 10 which proves their extreme bias.
No offense, but you are basically saying "it is easy to see that Maru is the Goat and everyone who disagrees with me is either in on a PR conspiracy or has no knowledge about the game".
Slightly arrogant, don't you think?
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On March 18 2024 00:45 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 00:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 17 2024 23:40 Comedy wrote:On March 17 2024 22:09 Durnuu wrote:On March 17 2024 21:54 Comedy wrote:
let's be real serral holds the goat title unquestionably also. Mizenhauser is just one person and the vast majority of people that follow the game would pick serral. There's no doubt in my mind about that. Just because a majority of people say something doesn't make it right. The majority, as you say, has a triple bias of 1) recency, 2) liking macro games over anything else, which Serral is indeed the best at and had a favourable meta for it throughout his career, 3) foreign bias. As for the thread and this general ranking, I have no horse in this race and don't care either way, but I do find amusing how the value of Blizzcon and IEM Katowice skyrocketed in the eyes of fans once foreigners started winning them. No one was calling sOs the GOAT at the end of HotS despite winning 2 Blizzcons and an IEM, and in fact I doubt "the majority of people" would have had him in the top 10. One last point I'll make: let's create an imaginary Broodwar player, who happened to win every single ASL in the last 6 years. Yes, I'm exaggerating on purpose. But surely no one in their right mind would call them the GOAT, with most Broodwar players having retired, some being part-time, etc. Unless that imaginary player was white, perhaps?... the fact you bring up sos just shows that all you people do is look at results and don't look at the games. you could see with your own eyes how sos won those tournaments. by coming up with clever cheeses and beating people better than him at micro/macro/multitask with specially crafted cheeses. Everyone can also see with their own eyes how serral plays. He wins tournaments by being better at every aspect of the game than his opponent. Scouting/Macro/Micro/Multitask/Builds. It's easy for anyone who actually plays and watches the game to tell he is the goat, that's why picking maru is so controversial to begin with and you see all actual progamers and casters on twitter expressing themselves in disagreement with this list Lol. If a brood war player won the last 6 ASL's and was dominant in daily proleague and spoon matches with a 80% winrate he would seriously open up the goat conversation if he looked like he was more dominant than flash. Brood war players are getting better still, just like SC2 players. The fact that Serral didn't dominate during the kespa era is only because he was a teenager that was in highschool. If he had reached his 2018 level just a few years prior (if he was born earlier), he would dominate that era too. Nah it's easy for anyone watching and playing the game to tell that Maru is the Goat, foreign progamers and casters just want to back their favorite player because he's a foreigner, they were calling Serral the Goat in 2019 when he wasn't even top 10 which proves their extreme bias. No offense, but you are basically saying "it is easy to see that Maru is the Goat and everyone who disagrees with me is either in on a PR conspiracy or has no knowledge about the game". Slightly arrogant, don't you think?
Not sure if you have no sarcasm sensor or you didn't read the post I responded to but I just mirrored his post about Serral to show him how stupid it sounds. But glad you agree that it sounds stupid
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Oh god. remembering casters calling Serral in the GOAT in 2019 and how forced it was. It was impossible to watch his matches that year because of how biased the casts were. Even when he lost to Stats or soO or Zest or whoever you'd hear nothing about them in the audio feed.
I don't know if they were all told to force the narrative or if foreigners are all just Serral fanatics, but it was damn sure hard to watch
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Here are some ideas to test if one race is indeed more powerful than others/reduce the impact of race balance from results:
1. build the most capable AI bots by race (no APM limit etc.) and let them fight each other
2. make all pro players play random
Not saying this will happen but tell me you don't want to watch Maru play Zerg against Serral's Terran? 
By the way I read somewhere that Serral was originally a Terran player but quickly switched to Zerg, does anyone know if this is true?
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France12904 Posts
On March 18 2024 01:09 Fango wrote:
Oh god. remembering casters calling Serral in the GOAT in 2019 and how forced it was. It was impossible to watch his matches that year because of how biased the casts were. Even when he lost to Stats or soO or Zest or whoever you'd hear nothing about them in the audio feed.
I don't know if they were all told to force the narrative or if foreigners are all just Serral fanatics, but it was damn sure hard to watch
Most foreign casters were probably so tired of having their hopes crushed over and over again (since some casters were ex pro) by KR players, that seeing a foreigner go toe to toe / beat the best KR was a miracle and they became zealots in the Serral church from the get go
On the other hand skill wise Serral was known as a beast even earlier, and he showed the potential to do great things, but if potential alone was sufficient, Creator might have become the best protoss ever, similarly to Maru for Terran, but he didn’t
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So if greatest and best are two different things, in which expansion was Maru the best?
2018,2019 onwards = Serral
LOTV start until 2018 = Neeb TY ByuN
HotS = Taeja, Inno, Parting
WoL = Nestea, MC, Parting, MVP.
If Maru's greatest career is equal to having been beat in every era he participated in, congrats, lol.
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On March 18 2024 01:31 SINbg wrote:
So if greatest and best are two different things, in which expansion was Maru the best?
2018,2019 onwards = Serral
LOTV start until 2018 = Neeb TY ByuN
HotS = Taeja, Inno, Parting
WoL = Nestea, MC, Parting, MVP.
If Maru's greatest career is equal to having been beat in every era he participated in, congrats, lol.
PARTING :DDDDDDD
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On March 18 2024 00:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 00:45 Balnazza wrote:On March 18 2024 00:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 17 2024 23:40 Comedy wrote:On March 17 2024 22:09 Durnuu wrote:On March 17 2024 21:54 Comedy wrote:
let's be real serral holds the goat title unquestionably also. Mizenhauser is just one person and the vast majority of people that follow the game would pick serral. There's no doubt in my mind about that. Just because a majority of people say something doesn't make it right. The majority, as you say, has a triple bias of 1) recency, 2) liking macro games over anything else, which Serral is indeed the best at and had a favourable meta for it throughout his career, 3) foreign bias. As for the thread and this general ranking, I have no horse in this race and don't care either way, but I do find amusing how the value of Blizzcon and IEM Katowice skyrocketed in the eyes of fans once foreigners started winning them. No one was calling sOs the GOAT at the end of HotS despite winning 2 Blizzcons and an IEM, and in fact I doubt "the majority of people" would have had him in the top 10. One last point I'll make: let's create an imaginary Broodwar player, who happened to win every single ASL in the last 6 years. Yes, I'm exaggerating on purpose. But surely no one in their right mind would call them the GOAT, with most Broodwar players having retired, some being part-time, etc. Unless that imaginary player was white, perhaps?... the fact you bring up sos just shows that all you people do is look at results and don't look at the games. you could see with your own eyes how sos won those tournaments. by coming up with clever cheeses and beating people better than him at micro/macro/multitask with specially crafted cheeses. Everyone can also see with their own eyes how serral plays. He wins tournaments by being better at every aspect of the game than his opponent. Scouting/Macro/Micro/Multitask/Builds. It's easy for anyone who actually plays and watches the game to tell he is the goat, that's why picking maru is so controversial to begin with and you see all actual progamers and casters on twitter expressing themselves in disagreement with this list Lol. If a brood war player won the last 6 ASL's and was dominant in daily proleague and spoon matches with a 80% winrate he would seriously open up the goat conversation if he looked like he was more dominant than flash. Brood war players are getting better still, just like SC2 players. The fact that Serral didn't dominate during the kespa era is only because he was a teenager that was in highschool. If he had reached his 2018 level just a few years prior (if he was born earlier), he would dominate that era too. Nah it's easy for anyone watching and playing the game to tell that Maru is the Goat, foreign progamers and casters just want to back their favorite player because he's a foreigner, they were calling Serral the Goat in 2019 when he wasn't even top 10 which proves their extreme bias. No offense, but you are basically saying "it is easy to see that Maru is the Goat and everyone who disagrees with me is either in on a PR conspiracy or has no knowledge about the game". Slightly arrogant, don't you think? Not sure if you have no sarcasm sensor or you didn't read the post I responded to but I just mirrored his post about Serral to show him how stupid it sounds. But glad you agree that it sounds stupid
Nope, didn't see the post you answered to. Sorry then, but glad we agree.
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On March 18 2024 01:09 Fango wrote:
Oh god. remembering casters calling Serral in the GOAT in 2019 and how forced it was. It was impossible to watch his matches that year because of how biased the casts were. Even when he lost to Stats or soO or Zest or whoever you'd hear nothing about them in the audio feed.
I don't know if they were all told to force the narrative or if foreigners are all just Serral fanatics, but it was damn sure hard to watch
I concurred with this statement. The results of Serral obsessed fans nowadays were exactly the product from the excessive proclamation of Serral being GOAT from the casters multiple times, while at the same time patronizing players whoever he was always matched with in the tournaments like Rogue and Dark notably before the tournaments even started.
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On March 18 2024 01:36 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 01:31 SINbg wrote:
So if greatest and best are two different things, in which expansion was Maru the best?
2018,2019 onwards = Serral
LOTV start until 2018 = Neeb TY ByuN
HotS = Taeja, Inno, Parting
WoL = Nestea, MC, Parting, MVP.
If Maru's greatest career is equal to having been beat in every era he participated in, congrats, lol.
PARTING :DDDDDDD
Also Neeb lul (he was the best foreigner but not top 3 from 2016 to 2018).
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On March 18 2024 00:12 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 23:33 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
I built a very quick basic model with just two variables:
1. average ranking based on yearly winrate for the years a player was active and winning;
2. simple longevity penalty based on number of active winning years (out of 13).
Maru and Serral top this ranking, being #1 and #2 flipped depending on how much you weigh #2 (somewhere around 0.6 weight for the longevity penalty factor is where the flip occurs). This is pretty much exactly what Miz was alluding to, saying that the order flips based on importance of longevity.
[...]
The elephant in the room of course is it ranks Dark as highly as #4 or #5. Yes, I also think that this is the most interesting open question. As noted earlier, Mizenhauer himself has stated that in order to place Maru above Serral, being the Greatest had to be valued at as low as 45%, while the Greatest Career had to be valued at as high as 55%: Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 07:43 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2024 07:29 CicadaSC wrote:
Agree with this. Serral is good but you can't call him the goat if he refuses to play in Code S, the hardest tournament. Reynor, neeb and other foreigners who had success in weekend tournaments show how much of a different beast this is. Grats to Maru and well deserved #1. It's really close between the two. If my original split between Greatest and Greatest Career was more like 60/40 (it was 45/55 in favor of the latter) to the former then Serral gets first. Even then, I waffled between Maru and Serral a few times before settling on my final order. Personally, I do not agree with these weightings, but these are Mizenhauer's personal preferences and therefore not up to debate. But what is up to debate is that if these weightings are applied consistently, then it is difficult to see how Dark can be left out of the Top 10, while, for example, MVP is #4. MVP has been dominant only during the earliest era of the game, but apparently this has been valued so highly that, even when weighted only at 45%, it still puts him on #4. Dark, in contrast, has had a far longer and richer career, but somehow this career, even when weighted at 55%, is still not enough to even put him in the Top 10. I am really curious about the reasoning behind this.
Same for me, MVP being valued over Innovation, Maru longevity over Serral level of dominance, and Dark not anywhere on this list...
I'm totally ok with different opinions and understand lists are subjective, but when one dismisses others for "revisionist history" and talks with a tone that others do not have as strong of a grasp of the "data" as they have, it sounds to me like they're implying they are heavily basing their ranking on statistics and objective criteria. And if that's the case then these inconsistencies call into question the whole integrity of the list and ranking methodology, unfortunately no matter how nice the articles are to read. If the articles want to just focus on who the writer personally finds the greatest in their eyes, then I think overfocusing on all the data and statistics may have ran against what the articles might have been trying to express, unfortunately. Because once you get into all of that, then that becomes a very core part of the discussion surrounding the articles, when maybe the goal was just to celebrate these players.
On a semi-related note, I went back to review Taeja's list of achievements from 2013-2015 in the MVP article, because I wanted to examine how true people's memories were regarding Taeja mainly fighting "B tier Koreans" and "Code A players" at those tournaments and not having hard competition. When i looked at his Premiere wins in those periods, I actually found that he defeated players like Innovation, Jaedong, Flash, Life, sOs, and MMA many times at those weekend tournaments that supposedly the top Koreans didn't care enough about. Often, great players including some of the ones i listed would drown at those weekend tournaments. Of course this doesn't count the losses he may have gotten vs other good players at the tournaments he lost - but he won a large amount of the tournies he competed in, and the main point is that his wins did not have easy competition, he had to beat the best HotS players of the time, one time he beat Life twice in the same tournament (because of double elim).
I personally feel there's a case for Taeja outranking some of the people at the bottom of the list, if MVP's short dominance got him as high as #4. Wrist/neck issues aside (we can't excuse players based on health, just results), MVP fled Korea and his results also started dropping after his peak, his dominance wasn't as big as people remember. Players like Nestea and MC were still contenders and won tournaments during MVP's window of GSL wins, and players like MMA even overtook MVP briefly at times.
I guess where I'm going with this is just, i got the sense that a player's peak is the most important, and feel that goes against Maru being #1 despite his Proleague and whatever success. I'm with the people that are saying Maru did not feel like a GOAT contender before 2018. Of course his 4x GSL wins in 2018 is crazy and SC2 did not decline much at the time - it was only 2 years after Proleague, and years before GSL really started to downsize a ton recently. But the thing is, those 4x GSL still happened after the Kespa period, which these articles value very highly. Serral's dominance started around the same time in 2018, it was mainly only in EU sure but he did win GSL vs the World in 2018 vs Stats and he won WCS as well in 2018 vs Stats (who had the best LotV results in the first years), the same year as Maru. I don't think there's a significant difference in timing here. So the only thing left really is just valuing Maru's Proleague strength over Serral's much stronger 2018+ dominance than Maru.
People try to discount Serral by saying he hasn't proven himself in GSL - he doesn't need to when he's won GSL vs the World 2 times out of 2 attempts, vs top GSL players. And he doesn't need to when he wins WCs over top Koreans. There is simply no way you should penalize Serral for not collecting a Code S trophy when it isn't even the highest competition. And trying to value Code S (especially 2018+) more than a WC is just crazy to me, a WC has way more prize money and in the tournament structure it's the WORLD championship. It's also a bit unfair to penalize people for lacking results during a certain era, especially if that player was simply really young and not realistic to expect him to be able to compete at the top at like age 13-14. What you have to look at is the performances they DO show, and then extrapolate what their ability would have allowed them to do compared to other players if all players could magically compete in the same eras together. Serral has shown no evidence that he'd randomly do poorly in GSL vs others, all the evidence points to him 1) being able to defeat all the top Koreans in the biggest tournaments and 2) being able to defeat all the top Koreans on Korean soil in a Korean tournament with GSL branding 2 for 2.
The articles seem to value this kind of dominance and "class" as a form of proof of ability over different periods, especially with MVP. But it's not applied consistently. Maru is rewarded for the long list of results, Dark is left out of the list completely, MVP is rewarded for having a high peak despite actually sticking around long enough to rack up bad results that taints the ability to say his level of dominance could continue (but let's just ignore that part and pretend he retired when he was #1), and Serral is penalized for not competing in an era that he was born too late to compete in.
I also call into question the statement that the recent Katowice wouldn't be enough to affect the ranking. If Serral winning 4-0 over Maru and starting on a new streak of dominance even greater than his peak in 2018, with a winrate greater than any other player has shown in SC2, isn't enough to change the ranking then damn. Because if showing those great feats isn't enough, then idk what is. I guess if the Kespa period is over then no one can ever surpass Maru which just feels icky to me.
On March 18 2024 01:45 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 00:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2024 00:45 Balnazza wrote:On March 18 2024 00:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 17 2024 23:40 Comedy wrote:On March 17 2024 22:09 Durnuu wrote:On March 17 2024 21:54 Comedy wrote:
let's be real serral holds the goat title unquestionably also. Mizenhauser is just one person and the vast majority of people that follow the game would pick serral. There's no doubt in my mind about that. Just because a majority of people say something doesn't make it right. The majority, as you say, has a triple bias of 1) recency, 2) liking macro games over anything else, which Serral is indeed the best at and had a favourable meta for it throughout his career, 3) foreign bias. As for the thread and this general ranking, I have no horse in this race and don't care either way, but I do find amusing how the value of Blizzcon and IEM Katowice skyrocketed in the eyes of fans once foreigners started winning them. No one was calling sOs the GOAT at the end of HotS despite winning 2 Blizzcons and an IEM, and in fact I doubt "the majority of people" would have had him in the top 10. One last point I'll make: let's create an imaginary Broodwar player, who happened to win every single ASL in the last 6 years. Yes, I'm exaggerating on purpose. But surely no one in their right mind would call them the GOAT, with most Broodwar players having retired, some being part-time, etc. Unless that imaginary player was white, perhaps?... the fact you bring up sos just shows that all you people do is look at results and don't look at the games. you could see with your own eyes how sos won those tournaments. by coming up with clever cheeses and beating people better than him at micro/macro/multitask with specially crafted cheeses. Everyone can also see with their own eyes how serral plays. He wins tournaments by being better at every aspect of the game than his opponent. Scouting/Macro/Micro/Multitask/Builds. It's easy for anyone who actually plays and watches the game to tell he is the goat, that's why picking maru is so controversial to begin with and you see all actual progamers and casters on twitter expressing themselves in disagreement with this list Lol. If a brood war player won the last 6 ASL's and was dominant in daily proleague and spoon matches with a 80% winrate he would seriously open up the goat conversation if he looked like he was more dominant than flash. Brood war players are getting better still, just like SC2 players. The fact that Serral didn't dominate during the kespa era is only because he was a teenager that was in highschool. If he had reached his 2018 level just a few years prior (if he was born earlier), he would dominate that era too. Nah it's easy for anyone watching and playing the game to tell that Maru is the Goat, foreign progamers and casters just want to back their favorite player because he's a foreigner, they were calling Serral the Goat in 2019 when he wasn't even top 10 which proves their extreme bias. No offense, but you are basically saying "it is easy to see that Maru is the Goat and everyone who disagrees with me is either in on a PR conspiracy or has no knowledge about the game". Slightly arrogant, don't you think? Not sure if you have no sarcasm sensor or you didn't read the post I responded to but I just mirrored his post about Serral to show him how stupid it sounds. But glad you agree that it sounds stupid Nope, didn't see the post you answered to. Sorry then, but glad we agree.
Oh i also failed to read the sarcasm haha.
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Canada8989 Posts
On March 18 2024 01:20 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2024 01:09 Fango wrote:
Oh god. remembering casters calling Serral in the GOAT in 2019 and how forced it was. It was impossible to watch his matches that year because of how biased the casts were. Even when he lost to Stats or soO or Zest or whoever you'd hear nothing about them in the audio feed.
I don't know if they were all told to force the narrative or if foreigners are all just Serral fanatics, but it was damn sure hard to watch Most foreign casters were probably so tired of having their hopes crushed over and over again (since some casters were ex pro) by KR players, that seeing a foreigner go toe to toe / beat the best KR was a miracle and they became zealots in the Serral church from the get go On the other hand skill wise Serral was known as a beast even earlier, and he showed the potential to do great things, but if potential alone was sufficient, Creator might have become the best protoss ever, similarly to Maru for Terran, but he didn’t
I think it's fair to say a lot of casters/behind-the-scenes people were thrilled to have Serral as the world champion because he became by far the most popular player with fans. Go talk about random people into gaming about Starcraft 2 outside of the original WOL guys like MC or Idra, Serral will be the only guy they might know. If you get someone very big into other esport Maru might ring a bell, Rogue is just another faceless Korean.
It pains me to say it, but frankly, I don't think we'd still have SC2 esport if it wasn't for Serral (or someone else) beating the Koreans, a lot of people got back into esport to watch him beat the Koreans. Especially when the vast majority of the casters had their livelihood tied to the WCS circuit and the foreign scene, I think it's only natural that they embarked into the foreigner vs Korean narrative and were very glad to see ''their team'' win.
I think it's a shame. there used to be a lot more camaraderie between the Korean and Foreign scenes, foreigners used to go live in the Korean teamhouses, Koreans went across the globe, we had teamhouses/colocation in the US, Germany, Switzerland, etc. Casual fans knew the Koreans, they adopted some as their favorites (Polt, MC, MMA, HerO etc...)
Kespa and the region locked killed it all. By 2018, we were back to being taken aback when Solar could speak decent English. It felt like all the casters were pals with the foreigners and strangers like you and me with the Koreans, meanwhile you had guys Maru showing up to tournaments not knowing who bloody Showtime was.
The online turn brought back a little more interaction between the two solitude, but it will always be one of Starcraft 2 biggest missed opportunity imo.
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I come from KR. You don't know anything about the respect among pro players. And maru cannot be better than serral. Messi didn't participate in Eurocup made him a worse player??? No way.
1.Serral
2.Rogue
3.Maru
4.sos
5.Dark
6.Reynor
7.Innovation
8.Byun
9.Stats
10.Zest
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On March 18 2024 02:25 Cyril446 wrote:
I come from KR. You don't know anything about the respect among pro players. And maru cannot be better than serral. Messi didn't participate in Eurocup made him a worse player??? No way.
1.Serral
2.Rogue
3.Maru
4.sos
5.Dark
6.Reynor
7.Innovation
8.Byun
9.Stats
10.Zest
I love this list, fresh take! I love sOs so seeing him valued at #4 is amazing.
And it doesn't seem biased since you ranked Reynor so highly, even above Innovation.
I was always curious about Byun though - I see many people mention him, but in my memory didn't he only win 1 GSL and 1 WCS and then... not much else? I'd probably swap MVP in for Byun, and I'd say that list is quite solid.
I feel Stats getting 2nd places at WCS counts for a lot despite not winning one himself - especially if Serral is the one he lost to. (That's also a reason i often lean towards ranking Stats above Zest on my list, after remembering that him not winning a WC is due to losing to Serral at least one of the times).
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On March 18 2024 02:25 Cyril446 wrote:
I come from KR. You don't know anything about the respect among pro players. And maru cannot be better than serral. Messi didn't participate in Eurocup made him a worse player??? No way.
1.Serral
2.Rogue
3.Maru
4.sos
5.Dark
6.Reynor
7.Innovation
8.Byun
9.Stats
10.Zest
Ngl, 10 times better list than the TL one.
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Anyone with a clue about SC2 knows Maru is the goat, whether you believe Serral is better than Maru or not is irrelevant ,Maru's achievements are way bigger and more difficult to achieve. You also have Serral dominating in a era where Zerg was extremely strong and received heavy nerfs, while what Serral has done is super impressive its just not on the same level
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I think it's fair to say a lot of casters/behind-the-scenes people were thrilled to have Serral as the world champion because he became by far the most popular player with fans. Go talk about random people into gaming about Starcraft 2 outside of the original WOL guys like MC or Idra, Serral will be the only guy they might know. If you get someone very big into other esport Maru might ring a bell, Rogue is just another faceless Korean.
Huh? Perhaps you mean among English-speaking fans?
Even then, which SC2 fan wouldn't know Maru? And Rogue "just another faceless Korean"?
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On March 18 2024 02:25 Cyril446 wrote:
I come from KR. You don't know anything about the respect among pro players. And maru cannot be better than serral. Messi didn't participate in Eurocup made him a worse player??? No way.
1.Serral
2.Rogue
3.Maru
4.sos
5.Dark
6.Reynor
7.Innovation
8.Byun
9.Stats
10.Zest
Innovation was considered the best Terran at times. Dark and Reynor have never been considered the best Zerg, ever.
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EPT
