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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 18 2024 02:53 goldensail wrote: Innovation was considered the best Terran at times. Dark and Reynor have never been considered the best Zerg, ever. 2016 Dark was safely the best Zerg, though? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15978 Posts
On March 18 2024 02:25 Cyril446 wrote: I come from KR. You don't know anything about the respect among pro players. And maru cannot be better than serral. Messi didn't participate in Eurocup made him a worse player??? No way. 1.Serral 2.Rogue 3.Maru 4.sos 5.Dark 6.Reynor 7.Innovation 8.Byun 9.Stats 10.Zest No way Reynor and ByuN belong there, they aren't even top 15 | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On March 18 2024 02:22 Nakajin wrote: I think it's fair to say a lot of casters/behind-the-scenes people were thrilled to have Serral as the world champion because he became by far the most popular player with fans. Go talk about random people into gaming about Starcraft 2 outside of the original WOL guys like MC or Idra, Serral will be the only guy they might know. If you get someone very big into other esport Maru might ring a bell, Rogue is just another faceless Korean. Serral was definitely the best thing to happen to sc2 esports, but that doesn't make casters unbearable hype any more bearable. Even now, despite all the insane stats and unique achievements that Maru has, and Miz saying the split is tight and down to strength vs career and longevity, there are guys casters like Catz and Steadfast complaining on reddit saying there's literally no way it can't be Serral. They didn't even read the articles | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On March 18 2024 02:59 lolfail9001 wrote: 2016 Dark was safely the best Zerg, though? Nah that was Nerchio (according to Nerchio) | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1207 Posts
On March 18 2024 02:22 Nakajin wrote: I think it's fair to say a lot of casters/behind-the-scenes people were thrilled to have Serral as the world champion because he became by far the most popular player with fans. Go talk about random people into gaming about Starcraft 2 outside of the original WOL guys like MC or Idra, Serral will be the only guy they might know. If you get someone very big into other esport Maru might ring a bell, Rogue is just another faceless Korean. It pains me to say it, but frankly, I don't think we'd still have SC2 esport if it wasn't for Serral (or someone else) beating the Koreans, a lot of people got back into esport to watch him beat the Koreans. Especially when the vast majority of the casters had their livelihood tied to the WCS circuit and the foreign scene, I think it's only natural that they embarked into the foreigner vs Korean narrative and were very glad to see ''their team'' win. I think it's a shame. there used to be a lot more camaraderie between the Korean and Foreign scenes, foreigners used to go live in the Korean teamhouses, Koreans went across the globe, we had teamhouses/colocation in the US, Germany, Switzerland, etc. Casual fans knew the Koreans, they adopted some as their favorites (Polt, MC, MMA, HerO etc...) Kespa and the region locked killed it all. By 2018, we were back to being taken aback when Solar could speak decent English. It felt like all the casters were pals with the foreigners and strangers like you and me with the Koreans, meanwhile you had guys Maru showing up to tournaments not knowing who bloody Showtime was. The online turn brought back a little more interaction between the two solitude, but it will always be one of Starcraft 2 biggest missed opportunity imo. This quite a bit of offtopic, but I find the topic rather interesting (and failed multiple times to write a post about it myself in the past). First of all: I 100% agree with the "without Serral (or someone else) there wouldn't be SC2". For one, I am one of those people. When Snute retired in I believe 2017, I basically quit watching SC2. I'm the kind of fan who likes to have emotional stakes (aka. fandom I guess) in the things he watches. But without SKT in Proleague and my favorite player (who was one of the few foreigners who could atleast go toe-to-toe with the non-GSL koreans) it quickly became extremly boring to watch SC2. Yay, another korean who couldn't even bother to speak english enough for an interview won, woohoo...(yes, I will always be salty about that!) So I didn't fully follow Serrals rise through 2018. Only when I watched BlizzCon and the entire "dude, some foreigner might actually win"-buzz came around I tuned in. Never left since then, it actually became more interesting over time with more and more foreigners breaking into that magical circle. Another aspect you mention was the former "comradery" between foreigners and koreans. I don't have any insights behind the curtains, so of course this is just a viewers opinion, but personally I wouldn't exactly call it "comradery". It was more like giving out breadcrumbs. "Yes, of course the foreigners are allowed to play, but please don't bother the big kids after Ro32 okay?". I definetly remember discussions that basically went like "why are you even watching WCS Europe? I ONLY watch GSL, y'know, real Starcraft!" Usually the same kind of people who today have an existential crisis every time Serral wipes the floor with koreans... Anyway, what fascinates me is that this entire concept of "korean elitism" (from non-koreans) is really foreign (no pun intended) for me. I switched to SC2 from Warcraft 3, where there was a clear rivalry between the "foreigners" and the Koreans and later on Chinese. And I just say "foreigners" to stay consistent, we didn't call them that, they were simply "Europeans" and "Americans". Unlike in SC2 of course, it not only was a real rivalry, with top players in both camps, but also a clear cut between the two. International events were rare, so there was a "natural region-lock", enforced by lag and prizepools so low no one would travel the world for that. Interestingly, when the koreans swapped into the teamleagues, they were usually well-received by the europeans, considering that they played for european teams. But when it came to international tournaments, generally the "foreigners" would stick together and cheer 'against' the koreans. You just wanted Grubby, ToD and co. to win against Moon, Lyn and co. Guess you can imagine my surprise when I "switched over" to SC2 with the same mindset and not only had to realize quickly that there was no rivalry possible at all, but you also kind of got stamped as a "2nd rate fan" if you didn't watch the korean tournaments and Proleague. Sorry, long comment and maybe not the most coherent, but basically: When you say the "comradery" got destroyed, I can see your point. But personally, I definetly enjoy the actual "rivalry" between the foreigners and koreans a lot more, it just makes for a better narrative then "the koreans pummel the rest of the world over and over, but they are extremly nice about it!" (And just for safety: This entire thing is about competitive rivalry and has nothing to do with actualy 'race'...) | ||
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JJH777
United States4414 Posts
On March 18 2024 02:59 lolfail9001 wrote: 2016 Dark was safely the best Zerg, though? 2019 Dark deserves the best Zerg title over Serral as well. Blizzcon/Code S/Super Tournament vs GSL vs the World/HSC/region locked tournaments. Seems clear that goes to Dark by Serral fans own criteria even since Blizzcon has been held to such a stupidly high level ever since Serral won it. Dark also finished one round higher at Katowice. | ||
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goldensail
132 Posts
Yay, another korean who couldn't even bother to speak english enough for an interview won, woohoo...(yes, I will always be salty about that!) Did the foreign players learn to speak Korean? | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1207 Posts
On March 18 2024 03:16 goldensail wrote: Did the foreign players learn to speak Korean? I won't have that discussion again, knowing I'm somewhat the only person bothered by it, so I accept that. But I still will say that this is an extremly stupid comment that completly misses the core of the argument. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On March 18 2024 03:06 Balnazza wrote: This quite a bit of offtopic, but I find the topic rather interesting (and failed multiple times to write a post about it myself in the past). First of all: I 100% agree with the "without Serral (or someone else) there wouldn't be SC2". For one, I am one of those people. When Snute retired in I believe 2017, I basically quit watching SC2. I'm the kind of fan who likes to have emotional stakes (aka. fandom I guess) in the things he watches. But without SKT in Proleague and my favorite player (who was one of the few foreigners who could atleast go toe-to-toe with the non-GSL koreans) it quickly became extremly boring to watch SC2. Yay, another korean who couldn't even bother to speak english enough for an interview won, woohoo...(yes, I will always be salty about that!) So I didn't fully follow Serrals rise through 2018. Only when I watched BlizzCon and the entire "dude, some foreigner might actually win"-buzz came around I tuned in. Never left since then, it actually became more interesting over time with more and more foreigners breaking into that magical circle. Another aspect you mention was the former "comradery" between foreigners and koreans. I don't have any insights behind the curtains, so of course this is just a viewers opinion, but personally I wouldn't exactly call it "comradery". It was more like giving out breadcrumbs. "Yes, of course the foreigners are allowed to play, but please don't bother the big kids after Ro32 okay?". I definetly remember discussions that basically went like "why are you even watching WCS Europe? I ONLY watch GSL, y'know, real Starcraft!" Usually the same kind of people who today have an existential crisis every time Serral wipes the floor with koreans... Anyway, what fascinates me is that this entire concept of "korean elitism" (from non-koreans) is really foreign (no pun intended) for me. I switched to SC2 from Warcraft 3, where there was a clear rivalry between the "foreigners" and the Koreans and later on Chinese. And I just say "foreigners" to stay consistent, we didn't call them that, they were simply "Europeans" and "Americans". Unlike in SC2 of course, it not only was a real rivalry, with top players in both camps, but also a clear cut between the two. International events were rare, so there was a "natural region-lock", enforced by lag and prizepools so low no one would travel the world for that. Interestingly, when the koreans swapped into the teamleagues, they were usually well-received by the europeans, considering that they played for european teams. But when it came to international tournaments, generally the "foreigners" would stick together and cheer 'against' the koreans. You just wanted Grubby, ToD and co. to win against Moon, Lyn and co. Guess you can imagine my surprise when I "switched over" to SC2 with the same mindset and not only had to realize quickly that there was no rivalry possible at all, but you also kind of got stamped as a "2nd rate fan" if you didn't watch the korean tournaments and Proleague. Sorry, long comment and maybe not the most coherent, but basically: When you say the "comradery" got destroyed, I can see your point. But personally, I definetly enjoy the actual "rivalry" between the foreigners and koreans a lot more, it just makes for a better narrative then "the koreans pummel the rest of the world over and over, but they are extremly nice about it!" (And just for safety: This entire thing is about competitive rivalry and has nothing to do with actualy 'race'...) Maybe ''comradery'' is not the right word, there was a rivalry between foreigners and Koreans and some very real tension between the interests of both as you said. But what I meant is that people seemed to know each other, Polt might have been Korean, but he was also ''Captain America'', MC was the star of every stream, joking around with casters and players the way Reynor or Harstem do these days. Jaedong might not have been able to speak three words of English back to back, but you still knew he was Geoff guy all the way. Overall, it felt like we were moving in a good direction where we could appreciate players as people rather than nationality. Sometimes I'm not sure a lot of people are fans of Maru, herO, Dark, Cure, etc... feels like a lot of people just want Koreans to win (or to lose). I agree that there were a lot of pompous Korean elitists back in the day. | ||
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Starcloud
138 Posts
On March 18 2024 02:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: The articles seem to value this kind of dominance and "class" as a form of proof of ability over different periods, especially with MVP. But it's not applied consistently. Maru is rewarded for the long list of results, Dark is left out of the list completely, MVP is rewarded for having a high peak despite actually sticking around long enough to rack up bad results that taints the ability to say his level of dominance could continue (but let's just ignore that part and pretend he retired when he was #1), and Serral is penalized for not competing in an era that he was born too late to compete in. I also call into question the statement that the recent Katowice wouldn't be enough to affect the ranking. If Serral winning 4-0 over Maru and starting on a new streak of dominance even greater than his peak in 2018, with a winrate greater than any other player has shown in SC2, isn't enough to change the ranking then damn. Because if showing those great feats isn't enough, then idk what is. I guess if the Kespa period is over then no one can ever surpass Maru which just feels icky to me. Thank you. You put my thoughts perfectly on this post. MVP and Dark dont really add up to that logic. MVP was at the 4th spot with 1 year of domination. Serral has basically dominated 6 years, but he is number 2 ?? Dark has been very consistent like 10 years, but he isnt on the list. It doesnt make sense. Also every time Serral wins something and this (forever going) debate starts again, the opposite side finds a "new" reason why; - This tournament wasnt prestigious enough - This tournament didnt have enough good players - In this tournament Korean players xxxx and yyy werent really trying because of.... - In this tournament the Koreans were in an disadvantage because.... - Its a weekender, not GSL. - Serral always has the easiest groups/opposition - The maps are bad for every other race - Zerg is OP - Starcraft is dead allready, this doesnt count - Maru didnt win, so it doesnt count - Infestors are OP (nobody in the scene has brought that up before that one map) etc. etc. etc..... Maru has been a very good player and has a way longer career than Serral. The scene was diminishing since maybe 2017 ? Okay. So Maru has had 10 years of opportunities to win world championships. If and when this diminishing of the scene- statement is true, wouldnt that mean that its same time easier to win the WC ? Since the same people many times also think that GSL is more difficult to win than World Championships, why hasnt Maru never won that ? He has had roughly double the amount of time to win that than Serral. He obviously can win in Korea. Also he should care about that, since the biggest money has always been there. And this lazy "Its not GSL"-reasoning popping up again and again. Do you ever watch these games ? Does somebody realistically still think, that Serral couldnt win GSL with these results ? He has around 70-80% winrate against every player in the world, including Maru. | ||
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uselless
92 Posts
four archetypes of comments: agree with maru > serral, great list disagree with maru > serral, pay respects to Mizenhauer for all the work put into this list and a well-written piece regardless disagree with maru > serral, this list is trash, everything is invalidated, joke of a writing money man sos the goat i feel for you mr miz, ignore the third group; we think your work is great <3 | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa284 Posts
The articles are fantastically written and researched, but the rankings are sus. It feels a lot like a `top players the author wanted to write about', and the series and its impact are worse for the ranking aspect. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1201 Posts
On March 18 2024 02:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: The articles seem to value this kind of dominance and "class" as a form of proof of ability over different periods, especially with MVP. But it's not applied consistently. Maru is rewarded for the long list of results, Dark is left out of the list completely, MVP is rewarded for having a high peak despite actually sticking around long enough to rack up bad results that taints the ability to say his level of dominance could continue (but let's just ignore that part and pretend he retired when he was #1), and Serral is penalized for not competing in an era that he was born too late to compete in. I also call into question the statement that the recent Katowice wouldn't be enough to affect the ranking. If Serral winning 4-0 over Maru and starting on a new streak of dominance even greater than his peak in 2018, with a winrate greater than any other player has shown in SC2, isn't enough to change the ranking then damn. Because if showing those great feats isn't enough, then idk what is. I guess if the Kespa period is over then no one can ever surpass Maru which just feels icky to me. On March 18 2024 04:10 Starcloud wrote: Thank you. You put my thoughts perfectly on this post. MVP and Dark dont really add up to that logic. MVP was at the 4th spot with 1 year of domination. Serral has basically dominated 6 years, but he is number 2 ?? Dark has been very consistent like 10 years, but he isnt on the list. It doesnt make sense. Yes. This is what I think as well. In fact, I have arrived at the impression that the extensive presentation of statistics in the articles is slightly misleading, because we are not told about the most important part: Exactly how have all these numbers been integrated and aggregated into the final ranking? The glimpses into the aggregation process mentioned by Mizenhauer until now do not suffice to account for the results, especially the 45% Greatest vs. 55% Greatest Career weightings, because these appear to be inconsistent with the omission of Dark and the high placement of MVP. To be clear: I think it would be perfectly understandable and fair if Mizenhauer stated: "There is no systematic data aggregation procedure; the overall results are based on subjective overall impressions that vary from player to player." However, the appearance of a statistical basis plus the lack of details plus the apparent inconsistencies in the actual rankings do not seem to fit together. I'd be happly to learn from Mizenhauer how they add up, of course. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15978 Posts
On March 18 2024 04:10 Starcloud wrote: Thank you. You put my thoughts perfectly on this post. MVP and Dark dont really add up to that logic. MVP was at the 4th spot with 1 year of domination. Serral has basically dominated 6 years, but he is number 2 ?? Dark has been very consistent like 10 years, but he isnt on the list. It doesnt make sense. Also every time Serral wins something and this (forever going) debate starts again, the opposite side finds a "new" reason why; - This tournament wasnt prestigious enough - This tournament didnt have enough good players - In this tournament Korean players xxxx and yyy werent really trying because of.... - In this tournament the Koreans were in an disadvantage because.... - Its a weekender, not GSL. - Serral always has the easiest groups/opposition - The maps are bad for every other race - Zerg is OP - Starcraft is dead allready, this doesnt count - Maru didnt win, so it doesnt count - Infestors are OP (nobody in the scene has brought that up before that one map) etc. etc. etc..... Those points are just quotes of salty Maru fanboys (or serral haters) trying to discredit Serrals wins. Those kind of comments exist the same way the other way around and have no influence on Miz' ranking. For the rest of your post Miz has acknowledged that Maru has no world championship and provided imo convincing arguments why he's still at #1 if you would read the article | ||
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Joyfulbeekeeper
Russian Federation6 Posts
What a joke! The other funny thing is that ESL nowdays looks almost harder than GSL. GSL does not even have Rogue anymore. Serral+Reynor+Clem against Maru+Dark? | ||
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sidasf
85 Posts
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Coucou
1 Post
Serral has been dominating the game completely the last four years Maru is #4 on http://aligulac.com/ Serral has 71,6% over all winrate and comparably Maru has 65.3% On top of this Serral pretty much runs over Maru. The last result was 4-0 in the finals where they met From 2017 Katowice has been the hardest tournament by far. Code S gsl used to be the top tournament in ancient times but if you look at the players there now there are just a handful that can even take single games off of Serral. Serral is clearly currently the goat of sc2 | ||
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Telephone
United States142 Posts
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Telephone
United States142 Posts
On March 18 2024 07:34 sidasf wrote: Meanwhile Serral 4-0's Maru in a patch where zerg got massive nerfs. wait, what patch gave zerg massive nerfs? isn't it so beyond obvious that zerg is still massively overpowered? | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1207 Posts
On March 18 2024 08:18 Telephone wrote: wait, what patch gave zerg massive nerfs? isn't it so beyond obvious that zerg is still massively overpowered? Zerg was the minority race at Katowice...can we please finally retire the entire "zerg OP"-bs? It doesn't hold up... | ||
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