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Reddit thread is pondering this very question right now. I've been called a "Korean Elitist" here but there are some facts i can't deny.
GSL qualifiers are a ghostown and Ro32 reduced to 24 players: Even with the tournament size being reduced, GSL qualifiers are still easier than ever and RO24 is mostly(IMO) a formality before things begin.
Maru finishing 4th in a group with 2 foreigners. TY, the GSL champion, 3-0ed by NA runner up: We don't even need to bring Serral and Reynor into this,this goes beyond "upset" territory(upset would be TY making it close or Maru getting 3rd) this is just getting outclassed.
Region lock removed: Even people who faithfully preached the"faceless koreans are ruining starcraft" dogma think its ok to end region lock.
International tournament winrate: Koreans have won Blizzcon and Katowice, but they're getting outperformed by foreigners overall, losing every single circuit final. The Serral/Reynor finals are no longer only a WCS circuit issue.
I could go on with this for ages, there's plenty to be said about it but i think the most notable facts that concern this discussion are here.
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I wouldn't mind ending region lock, the foreigners have caught up. In which tournaments is region lock a thing? What would change?
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The problem with ending region lock is that Foreigner tournaments are either online or weekenders, so Koreans can attend them and still live in Korea, while foreigners have to move to Korea to attend GSL.
More international tournaments would work, but ending region lock 100% is not a good idea.
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Well, as one of the redditors said, on the top 20 players, there are a least 12 to 15 koreans.
They are less dominants but it's fine, if anything, it could motivate them.
Now, it's sure that the region lock has way less impact.
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The single best moment in SC2 history was when Serral won Blizzcon. Why? Because he demonstrated to other foreigners that it was possible to take down the Koreans. Once the mental barrier is gone, it is gone forever.
Personally I find it awesome that the Korean dominance over SC2 has ended. They were never more talented, they just had the teamhouse advantage. Take that away and they are nothing special.
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That's a dumb question.
No, Korean Starcraft has obviously not hit rock bottom--it could obviously be worse off than currently and almost certainly will be in a few months when Stats and others have to do their military service.
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look at the spots to Global Finals/IEM Katowice in March that each region gets! Korea has by far the most and do you disagree with that? I don't! Ranking the best 36 players, I might have a few more Europeans and leave out a few from other regions but no more than 1 from Korea
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On November 17 2020 04:39 Morbidius wrote:
Reddit thread is pondering this very question right now. I've been called a "Korean Elitist" here but there are some facts i can't deny.
GSL qualifiers are a ghostown and Ro32 reduced to 24 players: Even with the tournament size being reduced, GSL qualifiers are still easier than ever and RO24 is mostly(IMO) a formality before things begin.
Maru finishing 4th in a group with 2 foreigners. TY, the GSL champion, 3-0ed by NA runner up: We don't even need to bring Serral and Reynor into this,this goes beyond "upset" territory(upset would be TY making it close or Maru getting 3rd) this is just getting outclassed.
Region lock removed: Even people who faithfully preached the"faceless koreans are ruining starcraft" dogma think its ok to end region lock.
International tournament winrate: Koreans have won Blizzcon and Katowice, but they're getting outperformed by foreigners overall, losing every single circuit final. The Serral/Reynor finals are no longer only a WCS circuit issue.
I could go on with this for ages, there's plenty to be said about it but i think the most notable facts that concern this discussion are here.
Foreigners dominated every... King of Battles. But... Stats was second, but... of all the rock bottom Koreans only 1 lost WC titles... but! BUT... in the top 20 there are like 15 Koreans...
Sure, talent is leaving and no new is coming, especially visible it is at the Protoss where no foreigner can do anything substantial(like win a bigger tournament) nor Korean kongs.
Oh noez, Maru ended last after he finished 2nd and won a tournament. WHAT A DISASTER! TY was beaten by a NA runner up. After he spent streaming BW more time than preparing for this tournament(if any time was put into the preparation)... oh noez, Cure didn't deliver and didn't beat Serral again. Oh, wait, Cure wasn't here. Rogue didn't deliveR! Blame the patch zerg. Wait, he wasn't here either. Damn... blame Classic and military! 
Edit> Oh noez, it appears as if some Koreans are taking a break from SC2!!!! WHAT A DISASTER AND TRAGEDY. AFter a year of SC2!!!!
Maybe, just maybe, they are finally getting the well earned break. While a little bit ignoring tournaments which are ignoring their timezone (or not, who knows? )
Edit 2> I dare to say Korean SC2 is in the same state as 2 years ago, but with less talent which was lost to the army. Now is too late to do anything anyway.
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I don't know what regionlock you mean nowadays.
ASUS ROG qualifiers are coming which are free for anyone.
Dreamhack is regionlocked across the board based on citizenship.
Only TSL6 qualifiers are coming which are regionlocked.
There are just very few tournaments happening atm in which regionlock affects Koreans more than others.
And like mentioned before, Korea still gets half the slots for Katowice 2021.
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Katowice is the real Test, I give All the Korean elitists and apologists that one. The EPT season Finals where nice and all that, but in the end the world champion is crowned offline, at Katowice.
Still the top 20 in the world is way more than half KR. We have maybe 8-10 foreigners in top 30 and Down from there, there are quite a lot more foreigners, just because there are so many more Players in the world outside of Korean than in that tinny country
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United States1961 Posts
This has been almost ten years in the making. The last KeSPA rookie draft was held in 2013 and there has been almost no influx of talent since. (If you really want to dig into the drafts, 2008 was the last year that produced a bunch of championship caliber players, though 2009 had some solid players as well).
So you have a scene that was never going to get a bunch of new players for a number of reasons, (less pay/less exposure/their friends are playing lol or overwatch or whatever team game is popular/the current pros were too good) that was always inevitably going to be gutted by military service, and where players are picking up all sorts of injuries that limits the amount of time they can play and you have the perfect recipe for stagnation.
You can go back if you're really curious and find the interview where Zest remarks on how he tries (and I'm am paraphrasing) "half as hard as he used to". And remember, he said that YEARS ago. Or look to 2016 when players like INnoVation or soO basically mailed it in, playing Proleague (since this was what SKT paid them to do) but not putting any effort into individual leagues. There are countless other examples of players simply not putting in the time or just coasting because they were so far ahead of the second tier of competition that it wouldn't affect their bottom line all that much. It's also worth reading some stuff Jaedong said about not enjoying sc after awhile. It's quite possible a lot of the players are just burnt out after all these years.
Anyway, the INnoVation's soO's, Rogue's etc regularly reached the opening stages of individual events despite not grinding ceaselessly because they were simply so far ahead of everyone else. Players like bravo, guilty, trust, etc etc were never going to have some sudden breakthrough no matter how hard they practiced. Like I said, sc2 reached a point of stagnation a very long time ago. The result is just more obvious now that so many players have gone to military and the players in eu/na are putting more time in relative to the koreans.
It has nothing to do with region lock. It has nothing to do with some collusion against the Koreans. Korean sc2 was always destined to reach this point and the life matchfixing scandal simply accelerated the process by a couple of years by killing off proleague (which was already on its way out, but offered some stability to players). Even then, sc2 gave us some great games, great players, great rivalries and incredible memories. Who cares if Korean sc2 is at its lowest point? Everyone should have seen this coming years ago and the truth is it's only going to get worse. My advice is go back and watch some good games from yesteryear and celebrate the joy sc2 gave us.
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On November 17 2020 06:42 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2020 04:39 Morbidius wrote:
Reddit thread is pondering this very question right now. I've been called a "Korean Elitist" here but there are some facts i can't deny.
GSL qualifiers are a ghostown and Ro32 reduced to 24 players: Even with the tournament size being reduced, GSL qualifiers are still easier than ever and RO24 is mostly(IMO) a formality before things begin.
Maru finishing 4th in a group with 2 foreigners. TY, the GSL champion, 3-0ed by NA runner up: We don't even need to bring Serral and Reynor into this,this goes beyond "upset" territory(upset would be TY making it close or Maru getting 3rd) this is just getting outclassed.
Region lock removed: Even people who faithfully preached the"faceless koreans are ruining starcraft" dogma think its ok to end region lock.
International tournament winrate: Koreans have won Blizzcon and Katowice, but they're getting outperformed by foreigners overall, losing every single circuit final. The Serral/Reynor finals are no longer only a WCS circuit issue.
I could go on with this for ages, there's plenty to be said about it but i think the most notable facts that concern this discussion are here. Foreigners dominated every... King of Battles. But... Stats was second, but... of all the rock bottom Koreans only 1 lost WC titles... but! BUT... in the top 20 there are like 15 Koreans... Sure, talent is leaving and no new is coming, especially visible it is at the Protoss where no foreigner can do anything substantial(like win a bigger tournament) nor Korean kongs. Oh noez, Maru ended last after he finished 2nd and won a tournament. WHAT A DISASTER! TY was beaten by a NA runner up. After he spent streaming BW more time than preparing for this tournament(if any time was put into the preparation)... oh noez, Cure didn't deliver and didn't beat Serral again. Oh, wait, Cure wasn't here. Rogue didn't deliveR! Blame the patch zerg. Wait, he wasn't here either. Damn... blame Classic and military! Edit> Oh noez, it appears as if some Koreans are taking a break from SC2!!!! WHAT A DISASTER AND TRAGEDY. AFter a year of SC2!!!! Maybe, just maybe, they are finally getting the well earned break. While a little bit ignoring tournaments which are ignoring their timezone (or not, who knows? ) Edit 2> I dare to say Korean SC2 is in the same state as 2 years ago, but with less talent which was lost to the army. Now is too late to do anything anyway.
We can look at international tournaments and say its just luck, but all korean tournaments don't paint the brightest picture out there.
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the big worry for Korean SC2 is that there is no real viewership combined with no new blood.
The lack of new blood has been talked of recently in Snow's interview series with TY & Stats and they address this very issue saying that it is big worry they are not seeing anyone new around that can challenge the current pro level/lead the next generation. Combine this with the looming defunding from Blizzard on Korean SC2 tournaments, there is going to be big gap between tournaments Koreans can participate in and the next one, only really filled in by online tournaments. With GSL being gone, I can see many of the current roster moving to coaching another esports like League/ moving on to BW streaming/ retiring.
As TY & Stats also mentioned, Life's matchfixing accelerated this process and dismantling of the Kespa teams preventing recruitment of new talent just stopped Korean SC2 in tracks. Combine that with low viewership and interest means this was really inevitable.
Hell, even BW, which still has big following in Korea has this very same problem with lack of new blood (other than Soma). If game with much bigger viewerbase is struggling and looking likely to be on the tail end due to lack of new blood due to there being no supportive infrastructure (teams), SC2 would go the same path as well.
[link to the translated interview with TY & Stats on this issue (ENG sub on CC)]
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 17 2020 05:59 MockHamill wrote:
The single best moment in SC2 history was when Serral won Blizzcon. Why? Because he demonstrated to other foreigners that it was possible to take down the Koreans. Once the mental barrier is gone, it is gone forever.
Personally I find it awesome that the Korean dominance over SC2 has ended. They were never more talented, they just had the teamhouse advantage. Take that away and they are nothing special.
Agree with everything except the very last sentence. I think it was a very good call to region lock to bring up the rest of the world for the scene overall and the longevity of the game. It's now in a place where new and young players are coming up all outside of Korea. Hopefully Korea catches up and gets back into it, but as a collectivistic country, they all follow the crowd and the crowd is not in RTS/SC atm.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On November 17 2020 07:16 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2020 05:59 MockHamill wrote:
The single best moment in SC2 history was when Serral won Blizzcon. Why? Because he demonstrated to other foreigners that it was possible to take down the Koreans. Once the mental barrier is gone, it is gone forever.
Personally I find it awesome that the Korean dominance over SC2 has ended. They were never more talented, they just had the teamhouse advantage. Take that away and they are nothing special.
Agree with everything except the very last sentence. I think it was a very good call to region lock to bring up the rest of the world for the scene overall and the longevity of the game. It's now in a place where new and young players are coming up all outside of Korea. Hopefully Korea catches up and gets back into it, but as a collectivistic country, they all follow the crowd and the crowd is not in RTS/SC atm.
The cost was just the Korean scene. But hey, once the Blizzard deal is over, the BW can prepare for the influx of players. I heard Parting is good, TY is good and maybe others will join as well  (I'm not watching BW, but hey I wish them a proper future)
Korea, as a collectivivistic, fuck, again, vivisection... screw that. Korea follows BW. That's why BW featured streams have so many people watching.
On November 17 2020 07:03 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2020 06:42 deacon.frost wrote:On November 17 2020 04:39 Morbidius wrote:
Reddit thread is pondering this very question right now. I've been called a "Korean Elitist" here but there are some facts i can't deny.
GSL qualifiers are a ghostown and Ro32 reduced to 24 players: Even with the tournament size being reduced, GSL qualifiers are still easier than ever and RO24 is mostly(IMO) a formality before things begin.
Maru finishing 4th in a group with 2 foreigners. TY, the GSL champion, 3-0ed by NA runner up: We don't even need to bring Serral and Reynor into this,this goes beyond "upset" territory(upset would be TY making it close or Maru getting 3rd) this is just getting outclassed.
Region lock removed: Even people who faithfully preached the"faceless koreans are ruining starcraft" dogma think its ok to end region lock.
International tournament winrate: Koreans have won Blizzcon and Katowice, but they're getting outperformed by foreigners overall, losing every single circuit final. The Serral/Reynor finals are no longer only a WCS circuit issue.
I could go on with this for ages, there's plenty to be said about it but i think the most notable facts that concern this discussion are here. Foreigners dominated every... King of Battles. But... Stats was second, but... of all the rock bottom Koreans only 1 lost WC titles... but! BUT... in the top 20 there are like 15 Koreans... Sure, talent is leaving and no new is coming, especially visible it is at the Protoss where no foreigner can do anything substantial(like win a bigger tournament) nor Korean kongs. Oh noez, Maru ended last after he finished 2nd and won a tournament. WHAT A DISASTER! TY was beaten by a NA runner up. After he spent streaming BW more time than preparing for this tournament(if any time was put into the preparation)... oh noez, Cure didn't deliver and didn't beat Serral again. Oh, wait, Cure wasn't here. Rogue didn't deliveR! Blame the patch zerg. Wait, he wasn't here either. Damn... blame Classic and military! Edit> Oh noez, it appears as if some Koreans are taking a break from SC2!!!! WHAT A DISASTER AND TRAGEDY. AFter a year of SC2!!!! Maybe, just maybe, they are finally getting the well earned break. While a little bit ignoring tournaments which are ignoring their timezone (or not, who knows? ) Edit 2> I dare to say Korean SC2 is in the same state as 2 years ago, but with less talent which was lost to the army. Now is too late to do anything anyway. We can look at international tournaments and say its just luck, but all korean tournaments don't paint the brightest picture out there.
It's not luck, but considering Major said(allegedly) that Maru didn't play any SC2 at all after the Code S finals, TY was massively streaming BW it may appear that Koreans are taking a time off.
The talent is leaving, that's undeniable. And I am acknowledging it, but rock bottom? I wouldn't say so, but the next year may tell us more.
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On November 17 2020 05:59 MockHamill wrote:
The single best moment in SC2 history was when Serral won Blizzcon. Why? Because he demonstrated to other foreigners that it was possible to take down the Koreans. Once the mental barrier is gone, it is gone forever.
There was never a mental barrier. Koreans had a more competitive scene so they were performing better than they are now.
The scene was going to weaken anyway but the region lock didn't help, so sure I would hope it gets removed now.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On November 17 2020 07:22 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2020 05:59 MockHamill wrote:
The single best moment in SC2 history was when Serral won Blizzcon. Why? Because he demonstrated to other foreigners that it was possible to take down the Koreans. Once the mental barrier is gone, it is gone forever.
There was never a mental barrier. Koreans had a more competitive scene so they were performing better than they are now. The scene was going to weaken anyway but the region lock didn't help, so sure I would hope it gets removed now.
How will removing the region lock help developing the Korean scene exactly?
On November 17 2020 07:09 jinjin5000 wrote:the big worry for Korean SC2 is that there is no real viewership combined with no new blood. The lack of new blood has been talked of recently in Snow's interview series with TY & Stats and they address this very issue saying that it is big worry they are not seeing anyone new around that can challenge the current pro level/lead the next generation. Combine this with the looming defunding from Blizzard on Korean SC2 tournaments, there is going to be big gap between tournaments Koreans can participate in and the next one, only really filled in by online tournaments. With GSL being gone, I can see many of the current roster moving to coaching another esports like League/ moving on to BW streaming/ retiring. As TY & Stats also mentioned, Life's matchfixing accelerated this process and dismantling of the Kespa teams preventing recruitment of new talent just stopped Korean SC2 in tracks. Combine that with low viewership and interest means this was really inevitable. Hell, even BW, which still has big following in Korea has this very same problem with lack of new blood (other than Soma). If game with much bigger viewerbase is struggling and looking likely to be on the tail end due to lack of new blood due to there being no supportive infrastructure (teams), SC2 would go the same path as well. [link to the translated interview with TY & Stats on this issue (ENG sub on CC)]+ Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPig5JWrPos&list=PLdqi0o4auh2HWTaLfI33PCPwiD6yk02N6&index=2
Not sure about the talent and BW stuff. Artosis said that they get many more people trying ASL qualis than for the Code S so maybe they don't qualify but at least they try it. He said it during some of the last pylon shows(not the jeopardy one, those before, can't remember which one)
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On November 17 2020 07:22 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2020 05:59 MockHamill wrote:
The single best moment in SC2 history was when Serral won Blizzcon. Why? Because he demonstrated to other foreigners that it was possible to take down the Koreans. Once the mental barrier is gone, it is gone forever.
There was never a mental barrier. Koreans had a more competitive scene so they were performing better than they are now. The scene was going to weaken anyway but the region lock didn't help, so sure I would hope it gets removed now.
I agree that a mental barrier was never the issue. The issue was serral himself. Once he appeared Europe now had a player in the region that could push new talent up higher. It's after Serral that we see europeans generally rise up in ability, but we also get the 2 new young players - one who is Z like serral and the other who not-coincidentally is best at TvZ.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On November 17 2020 07:28 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2020 07:22 Nebuchad wrote:On November 17 2020 05:59 MockHamill wrote:
The single best moment in SC2 history was when Serral won Blizzcon. Why? Because he demonstrated to other foreigners that it was possible to take down the Koreans. Once the mental barrier is gone, it is gone forever.
There was never a mental barrier. Koreans had a more competitive scene so they were performing better than they are now. The scene was going to weaken anyway but the region lock didn't help, so sure I would hope it gets removed now. I agree that a mental barrier was never the issue. The issue was serral himself. Once he appeared Europe now had a player in the region that could push new talent up higher. It's after Serral that we see europeans generally rise up in ability, but we also get the 2 new young players - one who is Z like serral and the other who not-coincidentally is best at TvZ.
Funny thing, there was a time when many Koreans were living in the Europe and playing on the European ladder. I wonder what drove them away (and I honestly believe that if the rules were more subtle we would have had many more foreigners being good much earlier)
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Apollo already teased region lock will be loosened next year which disproportionately effects NA. Koreans are less likely to take over the eu scene not only because the players are generally better but because for koreans to play there they have to overcome 330ms. On NA west you get 130. Rip na except Neeb, Scarlett, Astrea.
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EPT
