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Northern Ireland25618 Posts
On November 17 2020 09:23 Xain0n wrote:
Koreans aren't genetically better than non koreans at playing videogames, not even at playing Brood War; and it's not the fact that LoTV allows more units to be selected the factor that makes non koreans able to compete. Look at Serral's EAPM, at how fast Reynor is or how insane is Clem's multitasking and tell me they wouldn't have the mechanics to play BW at the highest level.
There was just a whole generation of potential progamers in Korea focusing their efforts on Starcraft and rightfully so, since the game was immensely popular, well paid and treated like a real sport.
These players then transitioned to Sc2; not only KeSpa's players, but also youngsters who lived in the myth of BW as an esport and tried their luck in Sc2 once it came out(Maru, Life, Creator were too young to be recruited but also TaeJa and Polt did not play BW and had great success in Sc2).
Despite the almost total majority of both Warcraft 3 and Brood War non korean scenes transitioning to Sc2, there just wasn't the infostructure to compete against koreans; they were better at the top and many more at mid/high level.
During HoTS, especially the latter were actively suppressing the growth of the foreign scene by going oversea to just win tournaments; only few were actually residing and laddering in the region they chose to play in.
That's why Blizzard decided for the region lock and that's not why the korean scene in Korea fell.
KeSpa collapsed without Blizzard having any role in it; the far future of korean Sc2, in retrospective, was doomed once it happened, The game was never as popular and as appreciated as Brood War in Korea and, without teamhouses nurturing new talents and other esports being more widespread and more appealing, evidently there was no more interest for new players to start or keep playing Sc2 at low level.
On the other hand, region lock successfully allowed new players from outside of Korea(Europe, especially), to safely grow without facing a floor way too high for them to handle. The popularity of Sc2 and the number of aspiring new players were simply higher outside of Korea so that the interest in the game persisted even against the already mentioned potentially more appealing esports.
Now, in 2020, there still exists an influx of promising teen players so that sc2 as a high profile esport will most likely end not because of lack of new blood but because of lack of funds.
Largely agree.
Really my view is, if you combine the tournament structure of all of SC2’s phases together, things would be perfect, or as close to as is reasonable.
So basically if you take the ‘lots of international tournaments’ phase where we had MLGs, IPLs, Dreamhacks, IEMs. Then the period where Korea had 2 Starleagues, Proleague and STs. Then add region locked WCS tournaments
Unfortunately we’ve never had them all at once.
A singular region locked tournament would have made no impact whatsoever negatively to the Korean scene if they had 2 starleagues, proleague and lots of international open qualifier tournaments to play in.
It would have made the regions better because being the best in Europe, or NA would have been still a way to find being a pro gamer, play full time and make that viable. But it wouldn’t have detracted from Korea at all.
In this model you get say a Serral who starts dominating EU, then had to make the step up and play vs the Koreans in all sorts of open tournaments. That still works fine. If he can step up then the Koreans have to step up, if not they still rule Starcraft.
The problem has never been region locking, its that the overall structure hasn’t aligned. Ideally you want an EU tournament, or an NA one that is lucrative enough to foster talent, and then feed into a wider, harder level of open international competition.
Instead we’ve dropped a lot of tournaments that could be more outright meritocratic in terms of Starcraft ability, and we have an EU circuit that is roughly equivalent to the Korean one in terms of money, but isn’t of the same level play wise. And there’s just not enough to compensate in terms of open international tournaments.
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Comment from Solar's stream- "Korean starcraft cannot grow, because young talented players have no reason to play starcraft. They will play league, because league is big here." 
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My extreme worry is that with Jin Air getting rejected from LCK franchising, the team has no reason to exist.
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Northern Ireland25618 Posts
On November 17 2020 10:09 SickeL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2020 07:34 deacon.frost wrote:On November 17 2020 07:28 travis wrote:On November 17 2020 07:22 Nebuchad wrote:On November 17 2020 05:59 MockHamill wrote:
The single best moment in SC2 history was when Serral won Blizzcon. Why? Because he demonstrated to other foreigners that it was possible to take down the Koreans. Once the mental barrier is gone, it is gone forever.
There was never a mental barrier. Koreans had a more competitive scene so they were performing better than they are now. The scene was going to weaken anyway but the region lock didn't help, so sure I would hope it gets removed now. I agree that a mental barrier was never the issue. The issue was serral himself. Once he appeared Europe now had a player in the region that could push new talent up higher. It's after Serral that we see europeans generally rise up in ability, but we also get the 2 new young players - one who is Z like serral and the other who not-coincidentally is best at TvZ. Funny thing, there was a time when many Koreans were living in the Europe and playing on the European ladder. I wonder what drove them away  (and I honestly believe that if the rules were more subtle we would have had many more foreigners being good much earlier) 100% agree: Thorzain when Koreans were in Europe was as good as Clem is now, IMHO.
Absolutely not, or if so in different ways. Thorzain was a great strategist and he came up with fiendish builds like for his TSL win.
Clem is a mechanical monster with crazy micro chops that equal basically anyone. As good as Thorzain was he’s never been a Terran that plays like a top Korean Terran, basically as well as they do.
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Sadly I agree with this sentiment. The Korean sc2 scene is in a terrible spot, with the bare minimum amount of players filling a 24 player GSL and with the skill level clearly dropping, it actually makes little sense to continue having GSL Code S tournaments as the quality and prestige simply isn't what it used to be during its height (back when we had Code A up-downs and Code S).
The players are clearly not as invested in SC2 as well with most players either just focused on streaming or even other games, and the viewership just keeps dropping. I truly believe AfreecaTV would be better off cancelling Code S next year, and just use those resources on expanding ASL, maybe have a Code A style tournament for BroodWar as well as more team leagues in between ASLs.
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On November 17 2020 10:17 chipmonklord17 wrote:
My extreme worry is that with Jin Air getting rejected from LCK franchising, the team has no reason to exist.
Don't worry, even if JAGW disbanded chinese teams would be willing to support its players.
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Afreeca should have a hybrid proleague to allow Korean pros to transition back to BW. That would be truly sad, funny, ironic... and yet, perfectly poetic.
Epi IV: A New Starcraft is Born
Epi V: EU Strikes Back
Epi VI: Return of the Elephants
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United States33432 Posts
ionno what you guys are still arguing about when miz basically summed it up 100% correctly 
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On November 17 2020 10:17 chipmonklord17 wrote:
My extreme worry is that with Jin Air getting rejected from LCK franchising, the team has no reason to exist.
Only their SC2 division is left, if you can even call it a SC2 team.
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Why are people still talking about region lock when the situation is hugely advantageous to Koreans right now?
Tournaments in which Europeans can participate but not Koreans: DH summer regional, DH fall regional, DH winter regional.
Tournaments in which Koreans can participate but not Europeans: ST 1, Code S S1, Code S S2, Code S S3, ST 2.
Am I missing something here, are there some tournaments I've forgotten about during the chaos this year? Because it seems to me that FIVE OFFLINE EVENTS is a hell of a lot better than THREE ONLINE EVENTS.
So WHY can the European scene thrive off a pittance of online events while Afreeca can't get anyone to show up to the qualifiers for their high production value offline events? Why are Koreans so "greedy" when there are leagues of lesser European pros who continue playing despite making fuck all money?
The elephant in the room is that the European scene is NOT thriving. Rather, the Korean scene was massively oversized to begin with. Consider that Europe's population is 14 times that of Korea's, yet Europe still has fewer S-tier players. Imagine if France, Germany, Britain, Italy, Russia, Scandinavia, Spain, Benelux, Visigrad, the Balkans, Ukraine, and three more regions on top of that, each had their own equivalent of the GSL system. It boggles the mind to think of such a thing. But when you do, you realise that the European scene is relatively tiny.
The Korean scene, which was enormous due to the legacy of Broodwar, and Blizzard's cash injections, is now regressing towards the mean. But Korea will probably still have more top-100 players in five years' time than Spain's (population 47 millIon) present three.
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On November 17 2020 12:54 Archerylady wrote:Tournaments in which Koreans can participate but not Europeans: ST 1, Code S S1, Code S S2, Code S S3, ST 2.
Am I missing something here, are there some tournaments I've forgotten about during the chaos this year? Because it seems to me that FIVE OFFLINE EVENTS is a hell of a lot better than THREE ONLINE EVENTS.
Foreigners can participate in GSL. If they choose not to, that is their own decision. Did you forget when Astrea, Scarlett, Special, and NoRegrets were in Code S?
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it will not take a long time that they will announce that they will also drop their SC2 team. If that happens, only Afreeca Freecs will remain.
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Nope, Korean BW is doing great! Peak viewership for this ASL, 200k+ on Afreeca.
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Also, the reason for Korean SC2's decline are (not in order of importance):
1. Jingoism.
2. Xenophobia.
3. Life's match fixing - and all of the bullshit that happened after.
4. SC2 not being BW.
5. Region lock.
6. Blizzard's decision-making (this is sorta a combination of the previous points).
Like, many of these obstacles were (and still are) actively propped up by the community, as can be readily seen in this and other threads. Is it really any surprise that a wounded giraffe is bleeding out and barely able to move - while many on TL are the metaphorical hyenas waiting to feast on the corpse? There are some posters, and you know well who you are, who are downright ecstatic at the relative rise of foreigners to their Korean counterparts regardless of what the underlying reasons for this gap being bridged are... Because all that matters is your hometown hero had a chance at European Local 2017 and now you can say your favorite player is the tallest animal in the world after consistently cheering for death of the giraffe.
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NA Stronger than ever!
Astrea showed up - took out Trap, almost beat Stats! Neeb pushed far also!
That's the real story here.
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I really miss the Korean scene of 2014 and 2015.
When you had GSL, starleague, proleague, you had basically sc2 everyday. It was awesome.
But today, the lack of new blood and funds is slowly killing the Korean scene. When the old generation finally retires and go to military this will be the end of the Korean sc2.
Now is it the end of global sc2? Certainly not. There are many young players in other regions. I wish there was more tournaments though.
Sc2 will end when Frost Giant studio releases the new competitive RTS game in a few years.
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On November 17 2020 12:54 Archerylady wrote:
Why are people still talking about region lock when the situation is hugely advantageous to Koreans right now?
Tournaments in which Europeans can participate but not Koreans: DH summer regional, DH fall regional, DH winter regional.
Tournaments in which Koreans can participate but not Europeans: ST 1, Code S S1, Code S S2, Code S S3, ST 2.
Am I missing something here, are there some tournaments I've forgotten about during the chaos this year? Because it seems to me that FIVE OFFLINE EVENTS is a hell of a lot better than THREE ONLINE EVENTS.
So WHY can the European scene thrive off a pittance of online events while Afreeca can't get anyone to show up to the qualifiers for their high production value offline events? Why are Koreans so "greedy" when there are leagues of lesser European pros who continue playing despite making fuck all money?
The elephant in the room is that the European scene is NOT thriving. Rather, the Korean scene was massively oversized to begin with. Consider that Europe's population is 14 times that of Korea's, yet Europe still has fewer S-tier players. Imagine if France, Germany, Britain, Italy, Russia, Scandinavia, Spain, Benelux, Visigrad, the Balkans, Ukraine, and three more regions on top of that, each had their own equivalent of the GSL system. It boggles the mind to think of such a thing. But when you do, you realise that the European scene is relatively tiny.
The Korean scene, which was enormous due to the legacy of Broodwar, and Blizzard's cash injections, is now regressing towards the mean. But Korea will probably still have more top-100 players in five year's time than Spain's (population 47 millIon) present three.
Foreigners can participate in GSL but most of them don't because of logistical reasons. I think a better point is that Koreans have better access to the biggest tournaments, practically speaking.
I will agree with you that the prize pools for EU events are a bit too low this year.
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The real test on BW popularity is when Flash (and to a lesser lesser extent; Bisu, Stork, Soulkey etc.) stops playing.
When the "greats"/popular people stops competing in ASL, im pretty sure "Pro BW" is as good as dead. There will ofc still be streaming and smaller tournament, but i will not live on this level of popularity without these players.
People really underestimate the power of fan favorites. Im pretty sure the foreign SC2 scene suffered from players like IdrA, Naniwa, Thorzain, Snute, not only for their talent the scene lost, but because of all the fans who left with them. Same thing with the Korean SC2: How many people stopped watching when Jaedong retired? How many people are gonna watch ASL when the KESPA pros are gone? Not many.
If, say, Flash and Bisu made a bet on who could win a GSL first and started playing SC2 briefly, it would give a (huge?) spike in terms of viewership. Sure alot of "BW elitits" wouldn´t watch because they don´t like the game, but i am pretty sure the wast majority of Flash fans will watch whatever Flash´plays.
Last thing: Starcraft (both BW and SC2) was going to suffer and decline with the rise of MOBAs, no matter what. For all the wrongs Blizzard, KESPA and matchfixing did, it was unavoidable that it would take away viewerships and players talent the more time went on.
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No it hit rock buttom when Blizzard decided to sue following the matchfixing scandal and then decided to force the entire pool of top players to switch games.
Oh wait wrong game. Yes korean SC2 will end whenever Blizzard pulls the plug on GSL, which is probably once their 3 year contract ends.
Brood War on the other hand has survived the worst possible thing that could ever happen to a game. Its fine. Actually more than fine. Given that most of Overwatch's viewers are bots, its Blizzards most popular eSport atm. It's never gonna go away. It went on when every single pro was forced to leave and it'll continue on should the current tier of pros slowly fade away. Though as its looking now, Brood War will set new standards for how long you can continue to be a pro gamer. Military service used to be the end of a career, now its just a small break.
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It's such a shame that we'll most likely never get to see how good Serral,Reynor, Clem could be at brood war.
I was just watching Serral vs Neeb with endless nydus and swarmhost spam and it made me wish I could watch those guys playing a ZvP in BW against each other.
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EPT
