|
On November 17 2020 05:59 MockHamill wrote:
The single best moment in SC2 history was when Serral won Blizzcon. Why? Because he demonstrated to other foreigners that it was possible to take down the Koreans. Once the mental barrier is gone, it is gone forever.
Personally I find it awesome that the Korean dominance over SC2 has ended. They were never more talented, they just had the teamhouse advantage. Take that away and they are nothing special.
If the game was more popular, Koreans would still dominate. But there isn't enough sponsors and cash in the scene to support new talent, hence the popularity of the game has fallen and with it the level of the Korean scene. Training traditions and know-how is more advanced in Korea, but that's all gone now. No coaches, no salaries, no schedule training and no practice partners.
It's not about talent or any kind of mental barrier. The Korean system was just better, the Koreans just practiced way more and with better quality in a better working environment.
There is a reason why China dominates for example table tennis. They are just years ahead of everyone else, their dedication is on an other level compared to other countries.
I wouldn't celebrate the fall of the Korean scene, which is signaling the fall of the SC2 scene in general. When I watch a sport I would want to watch the highest quality and the highest skills, something like watching Maru vs TY in TvT now. But before we had way more competition the scene was more dynamic it was harder for someone to dominate completely and we had more champions. Nationality doesn't matter when you had a fierce line-up of all star players all of which were championship material...
Now we have like 3 championship level foreigners and a couple of championship level Koreans. No more then 10 players and no body else to cause any upsets, because of no new talent we would get the same players over and over again, no up and coming players... That could surprise the competition like in other sports.
I think match fixing scandals since BW killed the Korean scene, after that lack of sponsors, region lockdowns were the nail in the coffin. Moving from centralized training to personal training... and that was the end of the Korean model...
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 25 2020 12:35 redloser wrote:
Wait 1 or 2 years, Stats, Rogue, Dark, TY, etc will all leave for the military service, and there are no Reynor or Clem to fill up the spot. If GSL is still running, we would see 5K MMR making it to the Ro16.
In 2 years Blizzard pulls out and SC2 in Korea disappears. We already know this.
Edit> Disappear is maybe a too strong word, but I don't think we will have anything near the current level.
|
On November 25 2020 19:31 raga4ka wrote:
There is a reason why China dominates for example table tennis. They are just years ahead of everyone else, their dedication is on an other level compared to other countries.
I find games are more fun when there is less money involved. If SC2 is going more amateur and has less giant corps involved there is a decent chance it'll be more fun not less fun.
Canadians take hockey very seriously.. Playing hockey when I was 13, 14, 15 felt like a job. I had more fun playing basketball and baseball because no one cared... it was just pure stupid fun.
|
Canadians take hockey very seriously.. Playing hockey when I was 13, 14, 15 felt like a job. I had more fun playing basketball and baseball because no one cared... it was just pure stupid fun.
I agree with you sometimes it's a breath of fresh air to play just for fun. It's the same for CS when everybody is so serious playing the fun is not there anymore.
|
Feel like it is very specific foreigners surpassing Koreans.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 26 2020 00:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2020 19:31 raga4ka wrote:
There is a reason why China dominates for example table tennis. They are just years ahead of everyone else, their dedication is on an other level compared to other countries.
I find games are more fun when there is less money involved. If SC2 is going more amateur and has less giant corps involved there is a decent chance it'll be more fun not less fun. Canadians take hockey very seriously.. Playing hockey when I was 13, 14, 15 felt like a job. I had more fun playing basketball and baseball because no one cared... it was just pure stupid fun.
I kinda didn't get how was fun involved in what you quote xD
Considering the jokes flying even at the GSL studio, I am not sure if it's that serious though 
|
I am embarassed to see this thread right now. People just should stop judging after one online tournament....
|
On November 29 2020 03:06 daruka2073 wrote:
I am embarassed to see this thread right now. People just should stop judging after one online tournament....
If you didnt bump it, you wouldnt have to look at it
|
I have warned of this development a long time ago. Koreans have overharvested their fishing grounds. A smart regulator would have prevented that.
They drove the global audience away from Starcraft, the market shrank drastically and now even semi-pro foreigners have a chance to compete with what is left of the Korean scene. Unfortunately this development comes way too late as Starcraft's decline was sealed when Koreans regularly made top 16 in every major global tournament.
|
On November 29 2020 05:15 marcesr wrote:
I have warned of this development a long time ago. Koreans have overharvested their fishing grounds. A smart regulator would have prevented that.
They drove the global audience away from Starcraft, the market shrank drastically and now even semi-pro foreigners have a chance to compete with what is left of the Korean scene. Unfortunately this development comes way too late as Starcraft's decline was sealed when Koreans regularly made top 16 in every major global tournament.
starcraft 2 wouldn't have declined if the game managed to capture attention the same way brood war has done for 20 years and still going.
The dissapointment of the game can't be ignored. Even now that it is a finished product, there are a lot of dissapointing unit interactions and strategies still in play.
|
On November 29 2020 08:34 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 05:15 marcesr wrote:
I have warned of this development a long time ago. Koreans have overharvested their fishing grounds. A smart regulator would have prevented that.
They drove the global audience away from Starcraft, the market shrank drastically and now even semi-pro foreigners have a chance to compete with what is left of the Korean scene. Unfortunately this development comes way too late as Starcraft's decline was sealed when Koreans regularly made top 16 in every major global tournament. starcraft 2 wouldn't have declined if the game managed to capture attention the same way brood war has done for 20 years and still going. The dissapointment of the game can't be ignored. Even now that it is a finished product, there are a lot of dissapointing unit interactions and strategies still in play.
This is funny, because the Brood War Scene crashed like no other. Why didnt Gameplay safe this game?
|
On November 29 2020 08:59 jomino wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 08:34 Comedy wrote:On November 29 2020 05:15 marcesr wrote:
I have warned of this development a long time ago. Koreans have overharvested their fishing grounds. A smart regulator would have prevented that.
They drove the global audience away from Starcraft, the market shrank drastically and now even semi-pro foreigners have a chance to compete with what is left of the Korean scene. Unfortunately this development comes way too late as Starcraft's decline was sealed when Koreans regularly made top 16 in every major global tournament. starcraft 2 wouldn't have declined if the game managed to capture attention the same way brood war has done for 20 years and still going. The dissapointment of the game can't be ignored. Even now that it is a finished product, there are a lot of dissapointing unit interactions and strategies still in play. This is funny, because the Brood War Scene crashed like no other. Why didnt Gameplay safe this game?
I'm not sure what you mean when GSL finals gets 3k viewers in korea and 200k tune in to watch ASL. And that is after the entire BW scene collapsed and tried to switch to starcraft 2, and came back years later after the entire pro scene and league structure for brood war has been eradicated.
Few days ago the news of OGN the tv channel that hosted starleagues and proleague closing hit. Did you really just make an account to say this? lol..
|
On November 29 2020 08:34 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 05:15 marcesr wrote:
I have warned of this development a long time ago. Koreans have overharvested their fishing grounds. A smart regulator would have prevented that.
They drove the global audience away from Starcraft, the market shrank drastically and now even semi-pro foreigners have a chance to compete with what is left of the Korean scene. Unfortunately this development comes way too late as Starcraft's decline was sealed when Koreans regularly made top 16 in every major global tournament. starcraft 2 wouldn't have declined if the game managed to capture attention the same way brood war has done for 20 years and still going. The dissapointment of the game can't be ignored. Even now that it is a finished product, there are a lot of dissapointing unit interactions and strategies still in play.
You are trying to say that Sc2 is objectively bad?
Koreans have loved Brood War for one entire generation and it's the only Rts they want to watch, it seems.
Warcraft 3 was a relative fail in Korea as well, people apparently found it boring.
|
On November 29 2020 09:41 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 08:59 jomino wrote:On November 29 2020 08:34 Comedy wrote:On November 29 2020 05:15 marcesr wrote:
I have warned of this development a long time ago. Koreans have overharvested their fishing grounds. A smart regulator would have prevented that.
They drove the global audience away from Starcraft, the market shrank drastically and now even semi-pro foreigners have a chance to compete with what is left of the Korean scene. Unfortunately this development comes way too late as Starcraft's decline was sealed when Koreans regularly made top 16 in every major global tournament. starcraft 2 wouldn't have declined if the game managed to capture attention the same way brood war has done for 20 years and still going. The dissapointment of the game can't be ignored. Even now that it is a finished product, there are a lot of dissapointing unit interactions and strategies still in play. This is funny, because the Brood War Scene crashed like no other. Why didnt Gameplay safe this game? I'm not sure what you mean when GSL finals gets 3k viewers in korea and 200k tune in to watch ASL. And that is after the entire BW scene collapsed and tried to switch to starcraft 2, and came back years later after the entire pro scene and league structure for brood war has been eradicated. Few days ago the news of OGN the tv channel that hosted starleagues and proleague closing hit. Did you really just make an account to say this? lol..
You have to take into account other statistics though as well, for instance:
Afreeca GSL vs ASL Finals youtube viewer count that currently sits at
SC2 307K views
BW 121K views
Usually the SC2 GSL finals get about 100k views by the end of the first day as well
|
On November 29 2020 10:02 Husyelt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 09:41 Comedy wrote:On November 29 2020 08:59 jomino wrote:On November 29 2020 08:34 Comedy wrote:On November 29 2020 05:15 marcesr wrote:
I have warned of this development a long time ago. Koreans have overharvested their fishing grounds. A smart regulator would have prevented that.
They drove the global audience away from Starcraft, the market shrank drastically and now even semi-pro foreigners have a chance to compete with what is left of the Korean scene. Unfortunately this development comes way too late as Starcraft's decline was sealed when Koreans regularly made top 16 in every major global tournament. starcraft 2 wouldn't have declined if the game managed to capture attention the same way brood war has done for 20 years and still going. The dissapointment of the game can't be ignored. Even now that it is a finished product, there are a lot of dissapointing unit interactions and strategies still in play. This is funny, because the Brood War Scene crashed like no other. Why didnt Gameplay safe this game? I'm not sure what you mean when GSL finals gets 3k viewers in korea and 200k tune in to watch ASL. And that is after the entire BW scene collapsed and tried to switch to starcraft 2, and came back years later after the entire pro scene and league structure for brood war has been eradicated. Few days ago the news of OGN the tv channel that hosted starleagues and proleague closing hit. Did you really just make an account to say this? lol.. You have to take into account other statistics though as well, for instance: Afreeca GSL vs ASL Finals youtube viewer count that currently sits at SC2 307K views BW 121K views Usually the SC2 GSL finals get about 100k views by the end of the first day as well
Probably because the majority watch Afreeca SL finals on ... Afreeca? Hello?
|
On November 29 2020 10:11 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 10:02 Husyelt wrote:On November 29 2020 09:41 Comedy wrote:On November 29 2020 08:59 jomino wrote:On November 29 2020 08:34 Comedy wrote:On November 29 2020 05:15 marcesr wrote:
I have warned of this development a long time ago. Koreans have overharvested their fishing grounds. A smart regulator would have prevented that.
They drove the global audience away from Starcraft, the market shrank drastically and now even semi-pro foreigners have a chance to compete with what is left of the Korean scene. Unfortunately this development comes way too late as Starcraft's decline was sealed when Koreans regularly made top 16 in every major global tournament. starcraft 2 wouldn't have declined if the game managed to capture attention the same way brood war has done for 20 years and still going. The dissapointment of the game can't be ignored. Even now that it is a finished product, there are a lot of dissapointing unit interactions and strategies still in play. This is funny, because the Brood War Scene crashed like no other. Why didnt Gameplay safe this game? I'm not sure what you mean when GSL finals gets 3k viewers in korea and 200k tune in to watch ASL. And that is after the entire BW scene collapsed and tried to switch to starcraft 2, and came back years later after the entire pro scene and league structure for brood war has been eradicated. Few days ago the news of OGN the tv channel that hosted starleagues and proleague closing hit. Did you really just make an account to say this? lol.. You have to take into account other statistics though as well, for instance: Afreeca GSL vs ASL Finals youtube viewer count that currently sits at SC2 307K views BW 121K views Usually the SC2 GSL finals get about 100k views by the end of the first day as well Probably because the majority watch Afreeca SL finals on ... Afreeca? Hello?
My point was that the GSL finals dont get 3k viewers and fade into obscurity.
|
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On November 29 2020 10:02 Husyelt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 09:41 Comedy wrote:On November 29 2020 08:59 jomino wrote:On November 29 2020 08:34 Comedy wrote:On November 29 2020 05:15 marcesr wrote:
I have warned of this development a long time ago. Koreans have overharvested their fishing grounds. A smart regulator would have prevented that.
They drove the global audience away from Starcraft, the market shrank drastically and now even semi-pro foreigners have a chance to compete with what is left of the Korean scene. Unfortunately this development comes way too late as Starcraft's decline was sealed when Koreans regularly made top 16 in every major global tournament. starcraft 2 wouldn't have declined if the game managed to capture attention the same way brood war has done for 20 years and still going. The dissapointment of the game can't be ignored. Even now that it is a finished product, there are a lot of dissapointing unit interactions and strategies still in play. This is funny, because the Brood War Scene crashed like no other. Why didnt Gameplay safe this game? I'm not sure what you mean when GSL finals gets 3k viewers in korea and 200k tune in to watch ASL. And that is after the entire BW scene collapsed and tried to switch to starcraft 2, and came back years later after the entire pro scene and league structure for brood war has been eradicated. Few days ago the news of OGN the tv channel that hosted starleagues and proleague closing hit. Did you really just make an account to say this? lol.. You have to take into account other statistics though as well, for instance: Afreeca GSL vs ASL Finals youtube viewer count that currently sits at SC2 307K views BW 121K views Usually the SC2 GSL finals get about 100k views by the end of the first day as well
I’m not sure why comparing SC2’s popularity via its popularity in Korea vs BW which isn’t so much a game as a cultural phenomenon over there is really that worthwhile an exercise.
It’s hard enough to trap lightning in a bottle once, never mind to repeat the trick, indeed some of the various factors involved I think make it nearly impossible.
Be it PC bang culture, be it the subsequent development of accessible VoIP chat or whatever, all sorts of factors. I don’t think it’s coincidental that team games became way more popular when you could play and talk to your friends easily.
Prior to that, I don’t think playing 1v1 games felt as isolating, because the alternative of that easy social experience didn’t actually exist yet.
I mean going on a tangent but some people seem to want to call SC2 a failure when I’m not sure it was actually possible for it to replicate its success in Korea, and via other metrics it’s done pretty well, and exceptionally well if we consider it vs other 1v1 focused games in general, and RTS games in general.
|
On November 29 2020 10:18 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 10:02 Husyelt wrote:On November 29 2020 09:41 Comedy wrote:On November 29 2020 08:59 jomino wrote:On November 29 2020 08:34 Comedy wrote:On November 29 2020 05:15 marcesr wrote:
I have warned of this development a long time ago. Koreans have overharvested their fishing grounds. A smart regulator would have prevented that.
They drove the global audience away from Starcraft, the market shrank drastically and now even semi-pro foreigners have a chance to compete with what is left of the Korean scene. Unfortunately this development comes way too late as Starcraft's decline was sealed when Koreans regularly made top 16 in every major global tournament. starcraft 2 wouldn't have declined if the game managed to capture attention the same way brood war has done for 20 years and still going. The dissapointment of the game can't be ignored. Even now that it is a finished product, there are a lot of dissapointing unit interactions and strategies still in play. This is funny, because the Brood War Scene crashed like no other. Why didnt Gameplay safe this game? I'm not sure what you mean when GSL finals gets 3k viewers in korea and 200k tune in to watch ASL. And that is after the entire BW scene collapsed and tried to switch to starcraft 2, and came back years later after the entire pro scene and league structure for brood war has been eradicated. Few days ago the news of OGN the tv channel that hosted starleagues and proleague closing hit. Did you really just make an account to say this? lol.. You have to take into account other statistics though as well, for instance: Afreeca GSL vs ASL Finals youtube viewer count that currently sits at SC2 307K views BW 121K views Usually the SC2 GSL finals get about 100k views by the end of the first day as well I’m not sure why comparing SC2’s popularity via its popularity in Korea vs BW which isn’t so much a game as a cultural phenomenon over there is really that worthwhile an exercise. It’s hard enough to trap lightning in a bottle once, never mind to repeat the trick, indeed some of the various factors involved I think make it nearly impossible. Be it PC bang culture, be it the subsequent development of accessible VoIP chat or whatever, all sorts of factors. I don’t think it’s coincidental that team games became way more popular when you could play and talk to your friends easily. Prior to that, I don’t think playing 1v1 games felt as isolating, because the alternative of that easy social experience didn’t actually exist yet. I mean going on a tangent but some people seem to want to call SC2 a failure when I’m not sure it was actually possible for it to replicate its success in Korea, and via other metrics it’s done pretty well, and exceptionally well if we consider it vs other 1v1 focused games in general, and RTS games in general.
Again, I was only focusing on the mr.funguy's "GSL only gets 3k viewers" comment. Which is simply not true.
And I don't think any RTS that sells 3 million units in its first month will ever be considered a failure. Let alone having a healthy pro scene 10 years on that continues push the games limits.
|
You would of had to have played both games to an expert level to understand on a deeper level why one is less than the other, but in the end, any such opinion will always be subjective. But Korea agrees, at least.
|
On November 29 2020 12:02 Comedy wrote:
You would of had to have played both games to an expert level to understand on a deeper level why one is less than the other, but in the end, any such opinion will always be subjective. But Korea agrees, at least.
So you have nothing to add except comments that border on trolling
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
