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On November 18 2020 14:20 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2020 13:32 Balnazza wrote:
Honestly, by now winning an offline DreamHack should be rated higher than winning a GSL. Bot tournaments follow the same pattern, where few players dominate the competition, but with a DH you have the stress of traveling, giving interviews in your non-native language and so on.
I never understood why Serral (or any other foreigner for that matter) had to proof himself in the GSL, a competition that blocks a lot of your regular schedule, why koreans always got the benefit of being in the absolute comfort zone. That even translates into DHs...for example, a player can speak the most broken english ever, he has to do the winner interview...except when you are korean, than Smix will do like 90% of the interview for you (I don't speak korean, but c'mon...her english-translation is like double the length of the korean answer she got). "But they don't speak english very well"...how can this be an issue with esports being around for 20 years?
Sorry, starting to rant again...
TL;DR: When you don't have an IEM Katowice or BlizzCon title, you cannot be the GOAT, period. Even if you have a hundred GSL titles. For comparison: Roger Federer is the GOAT in tennis, even though Nadal has the same amount of Major wins. But Nadals win are like ~60% in the French Open, which is a special format compared to "normal" tennis. He obviously is the GOAT in this format, but you have to proof yourself outside your home turf. So you're basically saying you care more about who plays well in shitty conditions rather than who plays well when everyone is at peak condition and who plays better in a high stress situation after traveling. That seems absurd to me but at least you admit it instead of making up some BS about how weekenders take more stamina or something. Your comments on Korean interviews are borderline racist and the exact opposite of what I observe. A lot of the times the answer in Korean is far longer than the translation. The last part is funny considering before 2018 literally no one who won a Blizzcon or Katowice was in contention for GOAT and that was agreed upon by basically the entire community. I guess Mvp won a Blizzcon but that was before it was anything special.
Well, for foreigners, GSL isn't about being in "peak condition". You still have to live in a foreign country whos language you probably don't speak and where english isn't always a possible solution. So it seems way fairer to me to have tournaments all around the world, where no one has this comfort zone.
It just annoys me a bit, that is all. As I said, for any other player you are expected to do an interview in english. And the community probably would be very angry with a player who says "no, I won't do it, unless I get a translator". Not all europeans are confident with their english skills.
A few years back, my argument wasn't as big as it is now. Obviously when korea was still THE biggest power in SC2, with like the Top 50+ being entirely korean, an international title wasn't as highly rated as a GSL or SSL. But now it is different. Serral is the biggest candidate for being the GOAT, but Reynor and Clem still win against him (fairly "often", too). Korea is still the single strongest country, but the times where GSL Top32er would easily win a DreamHack (with no other koreans present) are over. Only a few topdogs still stand out, like Maru or TY.
But honestly: Even when GSL was at his highest mark, I still thought you need that Blizzcon title. It is the undisputed "world championship". You just can't be the GOAT without winning that.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote:
It’s silly to say serral isn’t the goat because he has never competed in the gsl. It’s silly to say maru can’t be the goat because he can’t win outside of Korea/Asia. That being said, just going by the eye test, serral has been the most consistent out of every player for the past 3 years. Reynor and Clem are great and they do beat serral sometimes but serral has winning records lifetime against both. Serral is the goat whether people like it or not. The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
At the same timeframe Rogue got 3 world championship titles, 2 code S titles and 1 ST title(shortly before the blizzcon). But consistency(mostly in the foreign scene as Serral did win just 1 WC title) is more than winning almost half of the WC titles which were available. Yup, totally.
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Rogue and Inno have the best 'spread' of good results IMO, with Rogue having fewer, but more prestigious ones.
If Rogue wins any high profile tournament I think he has current GOAT in the bag. I don't feel Serral can say the same, and for Maru and Inno that tournament would have to be a world championship.
As it currently stands I think Rogue, Inno and Maru are the real contenders so far (of the players not banned  ). I think Serral needs one more very big win to be in the discussion (but damn he makes me believe he can do it).
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Serral's win in this case feels a little bit meh. Not because top Koreans performed depths beneath under-sub-par level (save Stats), but because Serral didn't met his biggest threats, Reynor and Clem.¨
Koreans performing how they did doesn't lower the value of the tournament win from Serral's perspective, but lack of matches against Reynor and Clem during the route to victory apparently do. From Serral fan's perspective this is pretty clear.
It has been already a while when also GSL victory's average (still by default very high) traditional esteem and value can be questioned only because Serral and Reynor aren't participating to them. The GSL's status as the best of the best tournament environment isn't that obvious if two (likely 3 in the future) Top 10 players, in which two can be easily considered Top 5 currently do not/do not want/cannot participate. Only tournaments where the best players of both worlds are present can be used as real measurement for parity. Preferably off-line.
Anyway, circumstances are what they are, and all participating players had at least roughly equal and fair opportunity to win the Finals before it started, thus circumstances, bracket luck, or perceived over- and under-performances cannot be used against the winner. And couldn't be used against him, if the winner would be someone else than Serral.
+1 premier win with global participation.
[...that odd feeling when you write like Serral-apologist in a situation where there are no real reasons for the apology. Only that partly unjustified feeling that the Winner wasn't properly tested here, even if the season grand finals was the test, just like any other Premier tournament with top players participating.]
Meh.
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On November 18 2020 21:24 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Rogue and Inno have the best 'spread' of good results IMO, with Rogue having fewer, but more prestigious ones. If Rogue wins any high profile tournament I think he has current GOAT in the bag. I don't feel Serral can say the same, and for Maru and Inno that tournament would have to be a world championship. As it currently stands I think Rogue, Inno and Maru are the real contenders so far (of the players not banned ). I think Serral needs one more very big win to be in the discussion (but damn he makes me believe he can do it).
Rogue has his fewer, more prestigious on average titles and almost nothing else.
A couple of semifinals and a couple of Majors wins. While it's impressive being 7-0 in Premier finals and having 3 World Championships and 2 Code S which qualifies him as COAT(Clutchest Player of All Time), when you look at the actual GOAT you should factor in the overall body of work in one's career and, compared to Maru's and Innovation's that you mentioned, Rogue's just not there.
Other than having more titles than Rogue, Maru(9-3) has an endless list of semifinals, Inno(10-4) has almost as many semifinals/third/fourth places as Maru and won a ton of Majors.
On November 18 2020 21:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote:
It’s silly to say serral isn’t the goat because he has never competed in the gsl. It’s silly to say maru can’t be the goat because he can’t win outside of Korea/Asia. That being said, just going by the eye test, serral has been the most consistent out of every player for the past 3 years. Reynor and Clem are great and they do beat serral sometimes but serral has winning records lifetime against both. Serral is the goat whether people like it or not. The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl? At the same timeframe Rogue got 3 world championship titles, 2 code S titles and 1 ST title(shortly before the blizzcon). But consistency(mostly in the foreign scene as Serral did win just 1 WC title) is more than winning almost half of the WC titles which were available. Yup, totally.
If you were angry when I said that you have faith in sOs I should be furious now.
Rogue won ONE World Championship since Serral's ascension; Serral was there, sure, when Rogue won the other two but he just wasn't a global championship contender(he indeed reached ro4 at Katowice 2018 and third place at WESG but he hadn't proved himself capable of winning tournament against koreans; after May, Serral just achieved another level and has not lost it yet, despite having declined from bonjwa level to arguably best player in the world to, as currently as, mere top player).
If we look at the results in World Championships only after Serral's breakout, he still is the most consistent: he has 1 title, 2 ro4 and 1 ro8 compared to Rogue's 1 title, 1 ro4, 1 ro8 and 1 early exit and Dark's 1 title, 3 ro8.
Serral's superior consistency in this timeframe applied to every international tournaments, not just to WCS/DH as you are saying. Also, if one had to trust you guys it would seem Serral just won a single title! Let's exclude his 6 WCS, 2 second and 2 third places he achieved in region locked tournaments since those counts nothing as everyone knows.
Considering tournaments where Serral faced koreans, he won BlizzCon, 2 GSL vs the World on korean soil(but those barely counts, right), 2 Premier tier HSC(but I guess those are fun tournaments), 2 DH season finals(but koreans were sleepy and had more lag as you teach me); as for placements in Premier tournaments against koreans, Serral counts 2 second places, 1 third place, 4 semifinals, 4 ro8.
Serral also won Nation Wars basically by himself and, as Majors, a lower HSC(tournament for fun) and two StayAtHomeStoryCups(hah, FUN tournaments ONLINE!)
On November 18 2020 21:43 UnLarva wrote:
Serral's win in this case feels a little bit meh. Not because top Koreans performed depths beneath under-sub-par level (save Stats), but because Serral didn't met his biggest threats, Reynor and Clem.¨
Koreans performing how they did doesn't lower the value of the tournament win from Serral's perspective, but lack of matches against Reynor and Clem during the route to victory apparently do. From Serral fan's perspective this is pretty clear.
It has been already a while when also GSL victory's average (still by default very high) traditional esteem and value can be questioned only because Serral and Reynor aren't participating to them. The GSL's status as the best of the best tournament environment isn't that obvious if two (likely 3 in the future) Top 10 players, in which two can be easily considered Top 5 currently do not/do not want/cannot participate. Only tournaments where the best players of both worlds are present can be used as real measurement for parity. Preferably off-line.
Anyway, circumstances are what they are, and all participating players had at least roughly equal and fair opportunity to win the Finals before it started, thus circumstances, bracket luck, or perceived over- and under-performances cannot be used against the winner. And couldn't be used against him, if the winner would be someone else than Serral.
+1 premier win with global participation.
[...that odd feeling when you write like Serral-apologist in a situation where there are no real reasons for the apology. Only that partly unjustified feeling that the Winner wasn't properly tested here, even if the season grand finals was the test, just like any other Premier tournament with top players participating.]
Meh.
I agree, this last victory of Serral feels like one of the most underwhelming he has ever achieved; to us fan, at least.
I am sure he enjoyed it as it broke his biggest non winning streak since he started accumulating titles.
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I'm not sure why you even bother Xainon.
Mvp is said to have 4 GSL's, and one of those is a GSL vs The World event, the millisecond Serral won the first of those, it became a "fun event", where people lost because they didn't care, and were saving builds for the next season of GSL Code S.
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@Xain0n It's nearly always nice fresh breeze blowing against the face when reading your comments, particularly in this endless border war someway related to The Sith Lord of Pornainen and his efforts. :D
Not gonna quote now for saving space. Just noting that you managed elonquently point out the fact that if out-off-game real life background circumstances force any tournament to be online and online only, and that condition apply to all players, foreigners and Koreans all the same, then that background condition must be reduced out entirely from comparisons and calculations when evaluating relative weight of this or that tournament win. Someone not taking "Fun Tournament ONLINE!" with global top dogs participating enough seriously to perform even at expected minimum level cannot be used as an excuse to lower the worth of such happening in a situation where there doesn't exist equivalent Fun Tournaments OFFLINE at all. In the future there may be asterisk added to COVID-epoch tournaments, but not because they were ONLINE 'fun', but because they were ONLY fun.
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I have said this before and I will continue saying it:
Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT
GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS
He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where:
1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline;
2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc.
3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS.
That metric should apply to Serral too.
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On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote:
I have said this before and I will continue saying it:
Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT
GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS
He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where:
1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline;
2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc.
3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS.
That metric should apply to Serral too.
You've some valid points there, and you've also right to continue to never consider Serral as GOAT. However:
in those 10 years of SC2, Serral has been around and in the scene. First as the child, then as a teen, and he peaked with:
1) Against nearly inpenetrable Korean wall of experienced KeSPA veterans (which then shouldn't be even possible scenario), in decline or not.
2) It wasn't Serral's wrong-doing that these legendary figures decided to retire (or get ban). With Serral there is emerging/emerged new generation of all-time greats, some of them* possible becoming even more dominant over the scene than Serral ever will. Maybe someone of those retired KeSPAvets could also reactivate their SC2 careers near the/at the top, and continue their resumes.
3) That ONE FUKING EXPANSION will be very likely THE LAST FUKING EXPANSION, that one, that will be played in year 2300 by University merited general A.I.s for casual fun and for making lectures on the Ancient history of human computer gaming: The Case study of early history of RTS. There will be likely a lot of time in the future when 8 years will be only a minor part of the entire history of the game, and who says Serral and Innovation won't be still hanging there among the top when they are in their 50s.
No matter what, even within one expansion and dramatically declined level of global SC2, it will be highly likely that we won't see Serral-like dominance/consistency of 3+ years (and counting) in the game anytime soon. If ever.
Add: * Reynor and Clem have been lately making Serral look like a potential candidate of perpetual future Kong of the next decade.
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On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote:
I have said this before and I will continue saying it:
Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT
GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS
He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where:
1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline;
2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc.
3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS.
That metric should apply to Serral too.
I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat.
But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign.
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Good lad, welcome back on top, King of the North.
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On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote:
I have said this before and I will continue saying it:
Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT
GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS
He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where:
1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline;
2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc.
3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS.
That metric should apply to Serral too.
Hoo boy, this thread is going places but I guess there's not much else sc2-related to talk about these days.
Serral basically peaked shortly after he went full-time as a pro, though I guess you can speculate how seriously he took the game prior to that. I don't care enough to go into the minutiae of your post as you're entitled to your opinion (though I think you're horribly wrong), but this whole he didn't dominate HoTS as a Westerner going to school as a teenager and playing a video game in his spare time is ridiculous. Europe and America have never had anything resembling the ecosystem of teamhouses or the social acceptance of progaming that Korea has always maintained.
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On November 19 2020 06:08 Calliope wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote:
I have said this before and I will continue saying it:
Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT
GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS
He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where:
1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline;
2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc.
3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS.
That metric should apply to Serral too. I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat. But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign.
SC2 in essence will never have a GOAT IMO for everything explained in your last paragraph, no one in the history of the game, for health reasons (Mvp, Rain, Maru now), or other reasons (he-who-must-not-be named, opposite of Death) will ever be around long enough to achieve true goat status, or 'be a god', even flash himself failed that category. Players who are here from the beginning are gone, and the golden years of sc2 (2013-2015 IMO) didn't include some of the peak players now (Serral, Reynor Clem) in their Hall of Fame.
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On November 19 2020 06:08 Calliope wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote:
I have said this before and I will continue saying it:
Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT
GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS
He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where:
1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline;
2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc.
3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS.
That metric should apply to Serral too. I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat. But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign.
That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements.
When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran.
In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least).
However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg.
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On November 19 2020 07:24 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2020 06:08 Calliope wrote:On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote:
I have said this before and I will continue saying it:
Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT
GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS
He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where:
1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline;
2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc.
3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS.
That metric should apply to Serral too. I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat. But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign. That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements. When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran. In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg.
Rogues IEM Super Tournament Blizzcon IEM streak was right before/during Serrals ascent.... Dark was in the wesg finals and had Maru beat in macro games and lost to 2 rax. Scarlett won a smaller IEM and had her best GSL performance to date. Hell that is around the time noregret qualified for code s. Dark and Rogue both hit Maru in code s bracket stages and put up the best fights against him of anyone. Zerg was already strong.
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On November 19 2020 07:44 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2020 07:24 Xain0n wrote:On November 19 2020 06:08 Calliope wrote:On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote:
I have said this before and I will continue saying it:
Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT
GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS
He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where:
1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline;
2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc.
3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS.
That metric should apply to Serral too. I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat. But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign. That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements. When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran. In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg. Rogues IEM Super Tournament Blizzcon IEM streak was right before/during Serrals ascent.... Dark was in the wesg finals and had Maru beat in macro games and lost to 2 rax. Scarlett won a smaller IEM and had her best GSL performance to date. Hell that is around the time noregret qualified for code s. Dark and Rogue both hit Maru in code s bracket stages and put up the best fights against him of anyone. Zerg was already strong.
Not really, the things you mentioned happened before Serral's actual ascension.
In early 2018, Serral had already shown he could compete with top koreans but couldn't ultimately vanquish them; Serral had also won his first WCS but he was losing quite decisively in international tournaments(he was definitely inferior to Dark and Rogue in that phase).
Something happened after Finland's defeat in Nation Wars.
When Serral returned to competition, under a new patch, he started winning and didn't stop until Katowice 2019; in the same timeframe, no other Zerg player won a single title.
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France12758 Posts
On November 19 2020 07:44 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2020 07:24 Xain0n wrote:On November 19 2020 06:08 Calliope wrote:On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote:
I have said this before and I will continue saying it:
Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT
GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS
He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where:
1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline;
2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc.
3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS.
That metric should apply to Serral too. I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat. But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign. That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements. When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran. In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg. Rogues IEM Super Tournament Blizzcon IEM streak was right before/during Serrals ascent.... Dark was in the wesg finals and had Maru beat in macro games and lost to 2 rax. Scarlett won a smaller IEM and had her best GSL performance to date. Hell that is around the time noregret qualified for code s. Dark and Rogue both hit Maru in code s bracket stages and put up the best fights against him of anyone. Zerg was already strong.
He is in complete denial. Zerg was even strong during late 2017 blizzcon with the hydra buff (the one Elazer had a very strong performance in and that Rogue won).
Zerg has dominated from 2017 to 2020, not just Serral, and what changed throughout the years is how much dominant they were rather than if they were.
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On November 19 2020 08:47 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2020 07:44 JJH777 wrote:On November 19 2020 07:24 Xain0n wrote:On November 19 2020 06:08 Calliope wrote:On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote:
I have said this before and I will continue saying it:
Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT
GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS
He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where:
1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline;
2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc.
3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS.
That metric should apply to Serral too. I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat. But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign. That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements. When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran. In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg. Rogues IEM Super Tournament Blizzcon IEM streak was right before/during Serrals ascent.... Dark was in the wesg finals and had Maru beat in macro games and lost to 2 rax. Scarlett won a smaller IEM and had her best GSL performance to date. Hell that is around the time noregret qualified for code s. Dark and Rogue both hit Maru in code s bracket stages and put up the best fights against him of anyone. Zerg was already strong. Not really, the things you mentioned happened before Serral's actual ascension. In early 2018, Serral had already shown he could compete with top koreans but couldn't ultimately vanquish them; Serral had also won his first WCS but he was losing quite decisively in international tournaments(he was definitely inferior to Dark and Rogue in that phase). Something happened after Finland's defeat in Nation Wars. When Serral returned to competition, under a new patch, he started winning and didn't stop until Katowice 2019; in the same timeframe, no other Zerg player won a single title.
We've argued about the timing of Serrals ascent before and I know we'll never agree on that even though his IEM performance that year is so clearly just as good as anything he's done besides Blizzcon 2018 but ultimately it doesn't matter for this discussion. Whether those Rogue, Scarlett, and Dark results were before or after Serral got good they still happened and they very clearly show that Zerg was not in a weak spot. There were very few significant balance changes between those results and the timeframe you are talking about. They were not as OP as 2019 but it was still the strongest race and underperforming slightly in a few GSLs doesn't change that. Rogue would have bopped Stats in Blizzcon if Serral wasn't there to do it. They would have won 2/3 of the highest paying events of the year and been a failed 2 rax defense away from 3/3.
For WCS Serral was constantly eliminating Zergs like Scarlett, Lambo, and Reynor during that year. I don't believe they would have went 4/4 but they would have still won a WCS or two in a Serral-less world.
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On November 19 2020 09:45 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2020 08:47 Xain0n wrote:On November 19 2020 07:44 JJH777 wrote:On November 19 2020 07:24 Xain0n wrote:On November 19 2020 06:08 Calliope wrote:On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote:
I have said this before and I will continue saying it:
Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT
GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS
He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where:
1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline;
2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc.
3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS.
That metric should apply to Serral too. I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat. But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign. That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements. When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran. In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg. Rogues IEM Super Tournament Blizzcon IEM streak was right before/during Serrals ascent.... Dark was in the wesg finals and had Maru beat in macro games and lost to 2 rax. Scarlett won a smaller IEM and had her best GSL performance to date. Hell that is around the time noregret qualified for code s. Dark and Rogue both hit Maru in code s bracket stages and put up the best fights against him of anyone. Zerg was already strong. Not really, the things you mentioned happened before Serral's actual ascension. In early 2018, Serral had already shown he could compete with top koreans but couldn't ultimately vanquish them; Serral had also won his first WCS but he was losing quite decisively in international tournaments(he was definitely inferior to Dark and Rogue in that phase). Something happened after Finland's defeat in Nation Wars. When Serral returned to competition, under a new patch, he started winning and didn't stop until Katowice 2019; in the same timeframe, no other Zerg player won a single title. We've argued about the timing of Serrals ascent before and I know we'll never agree on that even though his IEM performance that year is so clearly just as good as anything he's done besides Blizzcon 2018 but ultimately it doesn't matter for this discussion. Whether those Rogue, Scarlett, and Dark results were before or after Serral got good they still happened and they very clearly show that Zerg was not in a weak spot. There were very few significant balance changes between those results and the timeframe you are talking about. They were not as OP as 2019 but it was still the strongest race and underperforming slightly in a few GSLs doesn't change that. Rogue would have bopped Stats in Blizzcon if Serral wasn't there to do it. They would have won 2/3 of the highest paying events of the year and been a failed 2 rax defense away from 3/3. For WCS Serral was constantly eliminating Zergs like Scarlett, Lambo, and Reynor during that year. I don't believe they would have went 4/4 but they would have still won a WCS or two in a Serral-less world.
Despite his good placements in early 2018, Serral was not up there. He got 3-0d by Classic before Rogue dismantled him, 3-0d by Maru before Dark almost beat him and didn't win a single map against soO; that's not up to par with anything that came afterwards.
I did not say Zerg was weak, I actually think balance was good with Protoss maybe a little stronger and Terran probably slightly weaker(but Maru and Serral repeatedly stopped Protoss from winning titles).
I am saying that Serral was the best player and way better than any other Zerg, who coincidentally and magically didn't win while he was at his apex, and that thinking that Serral dominated because his race was strong is absolutely ridicolous.
It's true that a Zerg would have won WCS Montreal anyway(it shouldn't shock anyone, really) but Dark wouldn't have been able to stop Stats at GSL vs the World and in a meta in which Neeb could stomp Rogue and Stats was the best in PvZ, I doubt that Rogue's bo7 prowess would have allowed him to crack the shield of Aiur.
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On November 19 2020 08:56 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2020 07:44 JJH777 wrote:On November 19 2020 07:24 Xain0n wrote:On November 19 2020 06:08 Calliope wrote:On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote:
I have said this before and I will continue saying it:
Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT
GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS
He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where:
1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline;
2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc.
3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS.
That metric should apply to Serral too. I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat. But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign. That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements. When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran. In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg. Rogues IEM Super Tournament Blizzcon IEM streak was right before/during Serrals ascent.... Dark was in the wesg finals and had Maru beat in macro games and lost to 2 rax. Scarlett won a smaller IEM and had her best GSL performance to date. Hell that is around the time noregret qualified for code s. Dark and Rogue both hit Maru in code s bracket stages and put up the best fights against him of anyone. Zerg was already strong. He is in complete denial. Zerg was even strong during late 2017 blizzcon with the hydra buff (the one Elazer had a very strong performance in and that Rogue won). Zerg has dominated from 2017 to 2020, not just Serral, and what changed throughout the years is how much dominant they were rather than if they were.
Nah after OL patch early in 2018 only Serral won anything for Zerg, 2019 sure.
Korean Zergs couldnt even get to ro4 of GSL.
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EPT
