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On November 20 2020 05:44 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. Who makes fun of Serral when he loses, or any player, for that matter? What a strange, weak mentality you harbor. Serral is simply a victim of his own dominance in 2018 and was always bound to stumble somewhat after that year. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. It's also not that hard to look at someone's overall play and extrapolate how they'd do in different eras. Serral, Reynor and Clem could succeed in any era, just as MVP or Life or Rain could. I watched all of those players stream and all had/have uncommon speed, reactions and mechanics, even for the pro scene. So sure, Serral never would have had his reign of dominance in 2018 during the Kespa era, and maybe Reynor/Clem wouldn't find their consistent and ascending success, but throw them in the Kespa training ecosystem in an alternate realty where they could have practiced 10 hours a day with a team-house and thriving tournament scene supporting them, and I'm willing to bet they'd all have been major factors. In reality though, we'll never know and this stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum where everyone's circumstances are the same. Goat discussions in any sport are good fun and entertaining, so if someone wants to claim Rogue or Innovation over Maru, that's what people do and it's the stuff of fandom. You and like 3-4 specific posters on TL, however, are so rabidly anti-Serral that it's embarrassing and makes it hard to take your discussion seriously when you approach something with such bias. Oh, I should add that I don't personally think Serral is the Goat, but he's certainly done enough to at least be included in the discussion, and there's time left on the proverbial clock for sc2. Maybe not a ton, but it's still running. Everybody who doesn't agree with them Serral fanboys on the GOATing Serral is a SErral hater. Maybe you should try to re-read some posts.
Nah, I'm fine with whatever viewpoints people have and some are very legitimate arguments, but the lack of respect over something like "This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses," crosses a line for me.
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On November 20 2020 06:21 JJH777 wrote:
I think a Korean with Serrals record would be mentioned as a goat candidate but there is no doubt in my mind there would be way less people who think that. These discussions remind me of when people thought Taeja was the goat which in my opinion never made any sense. Sure there was a period of time where had had more first places in premiers than any other players but they were lower quality premiers and unless I'm misremembering he has still to date never won anything on the level of GSL, a world championship, or anything else with a 6 figure prize pool. Serral is similar except he actually does have a world championship but that's his only truly major tournament. Homestory cups, WCS, GSL vs the world, these online finals, are all great and are definitely not easy to win but in my opinion you'll never be GOAT with just those no matter how many you win. depends, nobody took Polt/MMA or MC that seriously when they were winning WCS NA and EU easily because these tournaments were borderline worthless because all the talent was in GSL. That is basically what Serral is doing. Winning tournaments when the competition is at its lowest ever in sc2.
Is that unfair to Serral? Well, on 1 hand, he will never be able to prove how good he is since he only became relevant when sc2 became borderline dead. On the other hand, the fact that the competition level is soooooo abysmal right now allowed him to get a shit ton of cash.
So while he will never get to be considered a GOAT by people with average knowledge of the game because he never played in a competitive era, he got rich. Not a bad trade if you ask me.
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On November 20 2020 06:10 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 05:49 Charoisaur wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive. The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going.
If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil.
TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality.
It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore.
Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words).
It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment.
If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon.
Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest.
Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
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On November 20 2020 11:40 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 06:10 Luolis wrote:On November 20 2020 05:49 Charoisaur wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive. The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going. If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words). It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest. Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
For the record I have no doubt that you would not rate Serral as highly if he was Korean. I was just saying Taeja is similar and some people would still overrate him.
I also think it's funny that you're trying to take some type of moral high ground about being happy when players lose despite how clearly you've enjoyed some of Maru's losses.
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On November 20 2020 13:32 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 11:40 Xain0n wrote:On November 20 2020 06:10 Luolis wrote:On November 20 2020 05:49 Charoisaur wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive. The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going. If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words). It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest. Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries. For the record I have no doubt that you would not rate Serral as highly if he was Korean. I was just saying Taeja is similar and some people would still overrate him. I also think it's funny that you're trying to take some type of moral high ground about being happy when players lose despite how clearly you've enjoyed some of Maru's losses.
You would be wrong, how I rate Sc2 players has nothing to do with their nationality.
Enjoying players not winning is perfectly acceptable, expressing such enjoyment may or may not be appropriate, overtly disrespecting players and mocking them never is.
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For me Serral's greatness (and him being GOAT for me) becomes also from the fact that I cannot truly imagine Global SC2 scene as a whole qualitatively or competitively stronger if assuming hypothetical scenario where Serral wasn't part of competition during the era of his own making (about one third of the age of the Game), if we also assume that other trends at background would've gone same/similar way they did/are going.
IMO, it's clear that Serral has been acting as a sort of savior of the scene, giving the heimlich thrusts for the game under slow obstruction to death. It's almost certain that foreign (particularly European) competition level wouldn't nowhere it is currently without Serral's input after he moved to full time professional. Maybe his positive impact wasn't initially happening fast or very big in its magnitude, but over the time and his successes and direct or indirect influence accumulated in way that his existence and impact likely ensured few more years for the game. Sadly, there are no ways to measure my perception in any other way than via the dramatically improved level of his biggest Nemesis. For Serral fan it is a little bit bipolaric situation when you had to feel joy for Reynor's or Clem's (as most obvious examples) successes against the Idol, because you realize that they wouldn't likely be that good now without having been under influence of Serral, him acting as an example, sparring opponent, and the focusing lens of Euro (and Global) scene.
Of course, no man can alone do a much, but from the SC2 esports' entertainment business perspective, nobody can deny that Serral has been godly, swarm-send gift for SC2 in its decline, and that overall impact is enormous. It is also positive. How much faster the "looming end" would've come without him?
Part of the GOATness of Serral for me becomes from this scene revitalizing influence. Its hard to single out other player with relatively bigger positive impact to the scene (in a place and in a flow of his time) than Serral has. Luckily it was not brief period of shiny peaking, but it continued and continued...
From viewpoint of future history whole period will be talked as "that era, and what happened inbetween Serral finishing highschool and becoming full time pro, to him starting his studies in an University". :D
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
Serral, the Savior of the scene. Also how does he revitalized the Korean scene? If you're talking abotu the whole scene. How did he help the NA scene exactly? or SA if that matters
Edit> you can replace some scenes with the game if it helps 
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On November 20 2020 18:56 deacon.frost wrote:Serral, the Savior of the scene. Also how does he revitalized the Korean scene? If you're talking abotu the whole scene. How did he help the NA scene exactly? or SA if that matters Edit> you can replace some scenes with the game if it helps
Ultimately. If oversimplifying for clarity It goes to two scenarios (one of them is hypothetical, but still probable):
1. Decline [of scene] in Korea, Europe, NA, and everywhere else.
2. Decline [of scene] in Korea, NA, and everywhere else, but not in Europe, largely thanks to Serral.
Which scenario is better for the game and it's future?
Me, just like almost everyone else hope that Serral would play even a few token GSL Code-S tournaments before its too late.
1. For hard-boiled Korean Elitist, that would be important for slowing down Code-S's unavoidable decline in prestige, as nobody couldn't anymore make their elitist remarks against Serral because of his lack of GSL participation.
2. For hard-boiled Serral Fanboi it would be important to make Korean scene stronger again as that would help dispel systemic hypocricy over the fact that Serral has been already ragdolling top Koreans several years (yes. Those same KeSPA certified GSL veterans and their efforts that are normally used as argument against Serral, when he dispatch them out of brackets somewhere else than in GSL), and Serral as the proxy for such aim cannot be possibly considered the worst available (particularly if he brings his best Euro pals with him).
Anyhow, one thing is sure. Nobody can accuse Serral to be guilty and culprit of the decline of Korean SC2, as if taking that stance then we must consider also that the Korean group of all-time great SC2 players wasn't that strong after all if one young semi-hermit Finnish Nerd from a backwoods of Pornainen can almost single handedly ridicule the whole church hegemony without any kind team house experience (Occasional golf courses and moose hunting trips with dad and bro comes most close to that), and continue to do so over extended periods of time (including Top Korean players of his own race).
Sadly Serral didn't have opportunity to remind about the fact in this tournament due extremely bad bracket luck, more Top Korean Terrans and Zergs were on demand. But what you can do if they cannot even make to playoffs or are casually decimated by NA players and other folks going full foreigner by their very nature and home countries. Only race among Koreans that kept their flag unstained in this tournament was Protoss, thanks to lovable Stats who fought courageously and honorably, not escaping his responsibilities when facing foreign elites.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
You said everything, not me. so stop walling and just admit the mistake.
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Sorry. I didn't spot the mistake, but trying to correct at least all clear typos when spotting them while walling. 
And no!, this time it is not about my 'emotional investment'. I'm genuinely underwhelmed about this tournament. And concerned too, if this tournament will emerge later as a start of new phase of decay in Korean scene. It would be lose-lose.
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On November 20 2020 11:40 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 06:10 Luolis wrote:On November 20 2020 05:49 Charoisaur wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive. The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going. If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words). It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest. Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
I don't understand why you quoted me?
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On November 20 2020 11:40 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 06:10 Luolis wrote:On November 20 2020 05:49 Charoisaur wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive. The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going. If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words). It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest. Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
I don't consider Rogue a GOAT candidate even though he won many more prestigious tournaments than Serral because all of his achievements were in a weak era. Maru was already one of the best players in the Kespa era and his achievements post-Kespa made him surpass the few players that were above him.
oh and I also don't think TaeJa is a GOAT candidate or even a top 10 candidate
On November 20 2020 08:07 Rubicant1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 05:44 deacon.frost wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. Who makes fun of Serral when he loses, or any player, for that matter? What a strange, weak mentality you harbor. Serral is simply a victim of his own dominance in 2018 and was always bound to stumble somewhat after that year. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. It's also not that hard to look at someone's overall play and extrapolate how they'd do in different eras. Serral, Reynor and Clem could succeed in any era, just as MVP or Life or Rain could. I watched all of those players stream and all had/have uncommon speed, reactions and mechanics, even for the pro scene. So sure, Serral never would have had his reign of dominance in 2018 during the Kespa era, and maybe Reynor/Clem wouldn't find their consistent and ascending success, but throw them in the Kespa training ecosystem in an alternate realty where they could have practiced 10 hours a day with a team-house and thriving tournament scene supporting them, and I'm willing to bet they'd all have been major factors. In reality though, we'll never know and this stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum where everyone's circumstances are the same. Goat discussions in any sport are good fun and entertaining, so if someone wants to claim Rogue or Innovation over Maru, that's what people do and it's the stuff of fandom. You and like 3-4 specific posters on TL, however, are so rabidly anti-Serral that it's embarrassing and makes it hard to take your discussion seriously when you approach something with such bias. Oh, I should add that I don't personally think Serral is the Goat, but he's certainly done enough to at least be included in the discussion, and there's time left on the proverbial clock for sc2. Maybe not a ton, but it's still running. Everybody who doesn't agree with them Serral fanboys on the GOATing Serral is a SErral hater. Maybe you should try to re-read some posts. Nah, I'm fine with whatever viewpoints people have and some are very legitimate arguments, but the lack of respect over something like "This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses," crosses a line for me.
It is what it is, I'm not the only one who makes fun of him when he loses. If you think it's unfair that he gets mocked for losing a few times- you're right, but his ridicolous fanboys provoke those reactions.
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On November 20 2020 21:34 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 11:40 Xain0n wrote:On November 20 2020 06:10 Luolis wrote:On November 20 2020 05:49 Charoisaur wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive. The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going. If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words). It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest. Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries. I don't consider Rogue a GOAT candidate even though he won many more prestigious tournaments than Serral because all of his achievements were in a weak era. Maru was already one of the best players in the Kespa era and his achievements post-Kespa made him surpass the few players that were above him. oh and I also don't think TaeJa is a GOAT candidate or even a top 10 candidate Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 08:07 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 05:44 deacon.frost wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. Who makes fun of Serral when he loses, or any player, for that matter? What a strange, weak mentality you harbor. Serral is simply a victim of his own dominance in 2018 and was always bound to stumble somewhat after that year. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. It's also not that hard to look at someone's overall play and extrapolate how they'd do in different eras. Serral, Reynor and Clem could succeed in any era, just as MVP or Life or Rain could. I watched all of those players stream and all had/have uncommon speed, reactions and mechanics, even for the pro scene. So sure, Serral never would have had his reign of dominance in 2018 during the Kespa era, and maybe Reynor/Clem wouldn't find their consistent and ascending success, but throw them in the Kespa training ecosystem in an alternate realty where they could have practiced 10 hours a day with a team-house and thriving tournament scene supporting them, and I'm willing to bet they'd all have been major factors. In reality though, we'll never know and this stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum where everyone's circumstances are the same. Goat discussions in any sport are good fun and entertaining, so if someone wants to claim Rogue or Innovation over Maru, that's what people do and it's the stuff of fandom. You and like 3-4 specific posters on TL, however, are so rabidly anti-Serral that it's embarrassing and makes it hard to take your discussion seriously when you approach something with such bias. Oh, I should add that I don't personally think Serral is the Goat, but he's certainly done enough to at least be included in the discussion, and there's time left on the proverbial clock for sc2. Maybe not a ton, but it's still running. Everybody who doesn't agree with them Serral fanboys on the GOATing Serral is a SErral hater. Maybe you should try to re-read some posts. Nah, I'm fine with whatever viewpoints people have and some are very legitimate arguments, but the lack of respect over something like "This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses," crosses a line for me. It is what it is, I'm not the only one who makes fun of him when he loses. If you think it's unfair that he gets mocked for losing a few times- you're right, but his ridicolous fanboys provoke those reactions.
You said that you didn't understand how anyone could consider Serral a GOAT contender, then you stated that a korean as accomplished as Serral results wouldn't have been mentioned in any GOAT discussion; that's false, just look at TaeJa. How much you and your extremely GSL centric criteria rate Serral or TaeJa is not the point here.
Coming to those criteria, you then say that Maru had "very few players" ahead of him after the KeSpa era?
You are stating that a player who had won TWO premier tournaments, reached a single second place , five semifinals and had a good proleague record(minus his best year) by the end of 2015 was already in contention for being GOAT?
That simply can't be true, which means that Maru's accomplishments during a "weak era" are substantial in this claim(and your countless posts of praise confirm that).
Serral's successes evidently made your korean elitists livers explode so that you express this frustration by exposing your lack of sport and openly mocking the player who has known defeat the least in modern times in the rare instances in which he actually loses.
Korean Sc2 does not deserve its seemingly unavoidable decline yet to come but you sore losers surely deserve to bear witness to it.
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On November 20 2020 23:41 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 21:34 Charoisaur wrote:On November 20 2020 11:40 Xain0n wrote:On November 20 2020 06:10 Luolis wrote:On November 20 2020 05:49 Charoisaur wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive. The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going. If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words). It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest. Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries. I don't consider Rogue a GOAT candidate even though he won many more prestigious tournaments than Serral because all of his achievements were in a weak era. Maru was already one of the best players in the Kespa era and his achievements post-Kespa made him surpass the few players that were above him. oh and I also don't think TaeJa is a GOAT candidate or even a top 10 candidate On November 20 2020 08:07 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 05:44 deacon.frost wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. Who makes fun of Serral when he loses, or any player, for that matter? What a strange, weak mentality you harbor. Serral is simply a victim of his own dominance in 2018 and was always bound to stumble somewhat after that year. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. It's also not that hard to look at someone's overall play and extrapolate how they'd do in different eras. Serral, Reynor and Clem could succeed in any era, just as MVP or Life or Rain could. I watched all of those players stream and all had/have uncommon speed, reactions and mechanics, even for the pro scene. So sure, Serral never would have had his reign of dominance in 2018 during the Kespa era, and maybe Reynor/Clem wouldn't find their consistent and ascending success, but throw them in the Kespa training ecosystem in an alternate realty where they could have practiced 10 hours a day with a team-house and thriving tournament scene supporting them, and I'm willing to bet they'd all have been major factors. In reality though, we'll never know and this stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum where everyone's circumstances are the same. Goat discussions in any sport are good fun and entertaining, so if someone wants to claim Rogue or Innovation over Maru, that's what people do and it's the stuff of fandom. You and like 3-4 specific posters on TL, however, are so rabidly anti-Serral that it's embarrassing and makes it hard to take your discussion seriously when you approach something with such bias. Oh, I should add that I don't personally think Serral is the Goat, but he's certainly done enough to at least be included in the discussion, and there's time left on the proverbial clock for sc2. Maybe not a ton, but it's still running. Everybody who doesn't agree with them Serral fanboys on the GOATing Serral is a SErral hater. Maybe you should try to re-read some posts. Nah, I'm fine with whatever viewpoints people have and some are very legitimate arguments, but the lack of respect over something like "This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses," crosses a line for me. It is what it is, I'm not the only one who makes fun of him when he loses. If you think it's unfair that he gets mocked for losing a few times- you're right, but his ridicolous fanboys provoke those reactions. You said that you didn't understand how anyone could consider Serral a GOAT contender, then you stated that a korean as accomplished as Serral results wouldn't have been mentioned in any GOAT discussion; that's false, just look at TaeJa. How much you and your extremely GSL centric criteria rate Serral or TaeJa is not the point here. Coming to those criteria, you then say that Maru had "very few players" ahead of him after the KeSpa era? You are stating that a player who had won TWO premier tournaments, reached a single second place , five semifinals and had a good proleague record(minus his best year) by the end of 2015 was already in contention for being GOAT? That simply can't be true, which means that Maru's accomplishments during a "weak era" are substantial in this claim(and your countless posts of praise confirm that). Serral's successes evidently made your korean elitists livers explode so that you express this frustration by exposing your lack of sport and openly mocking the player who has known defeat the least in modern times in the rare instances in which he actually loses. Korean Sc2 does not deserve its seemingly unavoidable decline yet to come but you sore losers surely deserve to bear witness to it.
If Maru didn't have any results before 2018 he wouldn't be a contender for GOAT. that's all I have to say, I will not respond to anything else from your ridicolous biased walls of texts.
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Nah, I'm fine with whatever viewpoints people have and some are very legitimate arguments, but the lack of respect over something like "This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses," crosses a line for me. [/QUOTE]
It is what it is, I'm not the only one who makes fun of him when he loses. If you think it's unfair that he gets mocked for losing a few times- you're right, but his ridicolous fanboys provoke those reactions.
[/QUOTE]
Starcraft 2 community, ladies and gentlemen. If you're going to double down on this, that's your prerogative, this kind of thing seems like poison to me regardless of any player you applied it to. But if we're going down that path, I guess it makes it easier to evaluate comments with that kind of bias behind it.
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serral in general plays well against all opponents, from eu na to koreans.
reynor is arguably his kryptonite
but reynor and clem, still need some work to consistently beat koreans.
so depends on how u define best. i think serral is the best since he can wins all players from time to time.
well, maybe he need a revenge against cure's new strategy. window mine op.
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People who say u cant consider Serral beeing GOAT cus of diference of competitiveness between today and the scene of years ago are simply blind to the level of skill that the top players have today compared to the skill they had in 2012-2015. You can see it through Maru and Serral, on how their play evolved.
Even the game in itself has evolved, become faster, with more builds - requiring a much higher knowledge to read it and respond correctly.
And it makes all the sense that players like Serral, Clem and Reynor are now the top players. They are on the right age of beeing able to grow up inside the game, so now they reach the "mature" age of knowledge and skill.
The MvPs, Nesteas, Stephanos and MC grew up in a different (although similar) game, Broodwar. They were the best of their time, but didnt have the chance to compete against players grew up inside the game.
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Its simply beautiful watching Clem play.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On November 20 2020 13:32 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 11:40 Xain0n wrote:On November 20 2020 06:10 Luolis wrote:On November 20 2020 05:49 Charoisaur wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive. The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going. If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words). It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest. Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries. For the record I have no doubt that you would not rate Serral as highly if he was Korean. I was just saying Taeja is similar and some people would still overrate him. I also think it's funny that you're trying to take some type of moral high ground about being happy when players lose despite how clearly you've enjoyed some of Maru's losses.
Taeja is pretty underrated IMO, kind of how Serral is in some quarters, namely the lack of those GSLs.
From the actual level of play he was showing in his peak years and results against the same players in every competition but GSL, Taeja was a better player than some give him credit for these days.
Even if they were mere fleeting summers Taeja did have periods where he was probably the best player in the world, not many can have that on their resume.
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EPT
