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On November 18 2020 01:19 661 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2020 21:06 Fango wrote:On November 17 2020 05:41 kawoq wrote:On November 17 2020 04:58 Serimek wrote:
TIME performance is to be highlighted as well in my opinion. It is very much alike Astrea's. x2, Time even took Serral to a 5th game. Maru's last group finish was totally unexpected. I actually think TIME's performances against Serral are kinda overhyped. Serral gave away 2 of those games. Had he played his usual defensive standard he wins 3-0. As for Maru, it was 100% expected. He's injured and unable to practice. You don't even have to go into the "online Maru" or "weekender Maru" usual lines. I’ve to ask, whats are these weekender/online Maru lines?
Delusion. The only reason Maru hasn't won weekenders is because he doesn't go to them. Maru exclusively plays in Korean tournaments, the very occasional online event, WESG, IEMs, and Blizzcons. Go through his tournament history all the way back to the start of his career and all of his tournaments are one of the above. He never accepted invites or tried to qualify for any of the mid tier weekend events (HSCs, MLGs, ASUS tournaments, the old Dreamhack and Red Bull events etc.) He also exclusively played in the larger IEM events. With that in mind he has done fine in weekend events. He won a WESG. Has another finals appearance in one. Has a finals appearance and multiple ro4s in various IEM events.
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On November 18 2020 02:05 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2020 01:19 661 wrote:On November 17 2020 21:06 Fango wrote:On November 17 2020 05:41 kawoq wrote:On November 17 2020 04:58 Serimek wrote:
TIME performance is to be highlighted as well in my opinion. It is very much alike Astrea's. x2, Time even took Serral to a 5th game. Maru's last group finish was totally unexpected. I actually think TIME's performances against Serral are kinda overhyped. Serral gave away 2 of those games. Had he played his usual defensive standard he wins 3-0. As for Maru, it was 100% expected. He's injured and unable to practice. You don't even have to go into the "online Maru" or "weekender Maru" usual lines. I’ve to ask, whats are these weekender/online Maru lines? Delusion. The only reason Maru hasn't won weekenders is because he doesn't go to them. Maru exclusively plays in Korean tournaments, the very occasional online event, WESG, IEMs, and Blizzcons. Go through his tournament history all the way back to the start of his career and all of his tournaments are one of the above. He never accepted invites or tried to qualify for any of the mid tier weekend events (HSCs, MLGs, ASUS tournaments, the old Dreamhack and Red Bull events etc.) He also exclusively played in the larger IEM events. With that in mind he has done fine in weekend events. He won a WESG. Has another finals appearance in one. Has a finals appearance and multiple ro4s in various IEM events.
And yet has never won a major champ outside Asia. Thats why, unfortunately, he cant be argued for the GOAT. Unlike Rogue, Serral and Innovation.
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On November 18 2020 02:31 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2020 02:05 JJH777 wrote:On November 18 2020 01:19 661 wrote:On November 17 2020 21:06 Fango wrote:On November 17 2020 05:41 kawoq wrote:On November 17 2020 04:58 Serimek wrote:
TIME performance is to be highlighted as well in my opinion. It is very much alike Astrea's. x2, Time even took Serral to a 5th game. Maru's last group finish was totally unexpected. I actually think TIME's performances against Serral are kinda overhyped. Serral gave away 2 of those games. Had he played his usual defensive standard he wins 3-0. As for Maru, it was 100% expected. He's injured and unable to practice. You don't even have to go into the "online Maru" or "weekender Maru" usual lines. I’ve to ask, whats are these weekender/online Maru lines? Delusion. The only reason Maru hasn't won weekenders is because he doesn't go to them. Maru exclusively plays in Korean tournaments, the very occasional online event, WESG, IEMs, and Blizzcons. Go through his tournament history all the way back to the start of his career and all of his tournaments are one of the above. He never accepted invites or tried to qualify for any of the mid tier weekend events (HSCs, MLGs, ASUS tournaments, the old Dreamhack and Red Bull events etc.) He also exclusively played in the larger IEM events. With that in mind he has done fine in weekend events. He won a WESG. Has another finals appearance in one. Has a finals appearance and multiple ro4s in various IEM events. And yet has never won a major champ outside Asia. Thats why, unfortunately, he cant be argued for the GOAT. Unlike Rogue, Serral and Innovation.
You realize Inno has only won a single premier outside of Asia right? And it won him significantly less than Maru's two top 4s in Katowice. If winning outside of Asia is a criteria for GOAT (which it's not) then Inno definitely does not make the cut either.
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On November 17 2020 20:59 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2020 11:00 Riner1212 wrote:
goat got saved cuz of stats lol
@locutos. Not Serrals fault
Still doesnt convince me that he is the GOAT. lol. unless if he wins 5 gsls then i will say he is the greatest of all time, but him winning 5 gsl's will never happen, dont see why ppl say hes the GOAT, but then again clem is on the rise and has owned him twice. serral got lucky he didnt run into a clem. you know it, i know it, everyone else knows it. clem is just going to get better and better and there no stopping the ZERG SLAYER!
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Had he played his usual defensive standard he wins 3-0.
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Czech Republic12131 Posts
On November 18 2020 02:31 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2020 02:05 JJH777 wrote:On November 18 2020 01:19 661 wrote:On November 17 2020 21:06 Fango wrote:On November 17 2020 05:41 kawoq wrote:On November 17 2020 04:58 Serimek wrote:
TIME performance is to be highlighted as well in my opinion. It is very much alike Astrea's. x2, Time even took Serral to a 5th game. Maru's last group finish was totally unexpected. I actually think TIME's performances against Serral are kinda overhyped. Serral gave away 2 of those games. Had he played his usual defensive standard he wins 3-0. As for Maru, it was 100% expected. He's injured and unable to practice. You don't even have to go into the "online Maru" or "weekender Maru" usual lines. I’ve to ask, whats are these weekender/online Maru lines? Delusion. The only reason Maru hasn't won weekenders is because he doesn't go to them. Maru exclusively plays in Korean tournaments, the very occasional online event, WESG, IEMs, and Blizzcons. Go through his tournament history all the way back to the start of his career and all of his tournaments are one of the above. He never accepted invites or tried to qualify for any of the mid tier weekend events (HSCs, MLGs, ASUS tournaments, the old Dreamhack and Red Bull events etc.) He also exclusively played in the larger IEM events. With that in mind he has done fine in weekend events. He won a WESG. Has another finals appearance in one. Has a finals appearance and multiple ro4s in various IEM events. And yet has never won a major champ outside Asia. Thats why, unfortunately, he cant be argued for the GOAT. Unlike Rogue, Serral and Innovation.
If winning outside of Asia is a must, than I say winning a proper COde S titles is a must. It's the only preparational tournament on the market, it tests a different set of skills and thus we can't talk about Serral.
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It’s silly to say serral isn’t the goat because he has never competed in the gsl. It’s silly to say maru can’t be the goat because he can’t win outside of Korea/Asia. That being said, just going by the eye test, serral has been the most consistent out of every player for the past 3 years. Reynor and Clem are great and they do beat serral sometimes but serral has winning records lifetime against both. Serral is the goat whether people like it or not. The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
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On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote:
It’s silly to say serral isn’t the goat because he has never competed in the gsl. It’s silly to say maru can’t be the goat because he can’t win outside of Korea/Asia. That being said, just going by the eye test, serral has been the most consistent out of every player for the past 3 years. Reynor and Clem are great and they do beat serral sometimes but serral has winning records lifetime against both. Serral is the goat whether people like it or not. The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
Consistency alone doesn't make someone the goat. If that was the case Soo would have started earning goat mentions when he was getting 2nd in everything and looked like the best besides finals. Winning when it matters is just as important. Especially when online cross server results always have an asterisk and prize pools are weighted so heavily for certain events. From the start of 2018 to now when it has mattered the absolute most (>6 figure prizepools) Serral is only 1-6. Still impressive but that Blizzcon is his only real Tier 1 victory. Then he has his 2 GSL vs The World's which are impressive but still not quite to the level of Code S/Blizzcon/IEM, and even wesg. Everything else he's won was either region locked, online, or a small prizepool relative to the big events. Also the fact that he did absolutely nothing before 2018 makes it hard to call him the goat unless he starts winning basically everything which he hasn't done.
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On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote:
The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
And you ignore the consistency of Maru and Innovation in an arguably much harder and tougher competition over the decade?
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On November 18 2020 09:46 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote:
It’s silly to say serral isn’t the goat because he has never competed in the gsl. It’s silly to say maru can’t be the goat because he can’t win outside of Korea/Asia. That being said, just going by the eye test, serral has been the most consistent out of every player for the past 3 years. Reynor and Clem are great and they do beat serral sometimes but serral has winning records lifetime against both. Serral is the goat whether people like it or not. The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl? Consistency alone doesn't make someone the goat. If that was the case Soo would have started earning goat mentions when he was getting 2nd in everything and looked like the best besides finals. Winning when it matters is just as important. Especially when online cross server results always have an asterisk and prize pools are weighted so heavily for certain events. From the start of 2018 to now when it has mattered the absolute most (>6 figure prizepools) Serral is only 1-6. Still impressive but that Blizzcon is his only real Tier 1 victory. Then he has his 2 GSL vs The World's which are impressive but still not quite to the level of Code S/Blizzcon/IEM, and even wesg. Everything else he's won was either region locked, online, or a small prizepool relative to the big events. Also the fact that he did absolutely nothing before 2018 makes it hard to call him the goat unless he starts winning basically everything which he hasn't done.
I don’t care about what tier a tournament is, like I said..the eye test. Regardless of any prize pool the bottom line remains Serral still beats everyone he plays 9 out of 10 times. What’s the difference between Maru/stats/rogue/dark etc. in GSL or BlizzCon or GSLvsTW? Are they not trying as hard because it’s not gsl? Your argument kind of collapses on itself. There are no asterisks when it comes to the goat convo. No excuses. You wanna call yourself the goat, there are no excuses. You either get it done or you don’t.
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On November 18 2020 10:07 buzz_bender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote:
The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl? And you ignore the consistency of Maru and Innovation in an arguably much harder and tougher competition over the decade?
They’re legends of course, but when I watch Serral play I’m constantly in awe over the things he does with his keyboard and mouse. He makes playing late game Zerg controlling multiple spellcasters and units without getting stormed/feedback to death look like a work of art. He’s just more impressive when it comes to gameplay of all types too be honest.
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On November 18 2020 10:35 Itsxjoeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2020 10:07 buzz_bender wrote:On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote:
The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl? And you ignore the consistency of Maru and Innovation in an arguably much harder and tougher competition over the decade? They’re legends of course, but when I watch Serral play I’m constantly in awe over the things he does with his keyboard and mouse. He makes playing late game Zerg controlling multiple spellcasters and units without getting stormed/feedback to death look like a work of art. He’s just more impressive when it comes to gameplay of all types too be honest.
Then I don't think you realize the level of performance of these players and what they are doing. I'm not denigrating what Serral has accomplished and his level of play, but for example what Maru has done for the Terran race is nothing short of ridiculous during his GSL run. What Maru did for the level of play for Terran is what Serral did for Zerg. In fact, I think it's an even greater accomplishment because it was literally *only* him carrying the Terran banner in the world at that time, unlike what we have now.
I think because the casters don't give enough credit to what Maru has accomplished and his level of play that people have this perception that Serral's accomplishment/performance is way better than Maru's.
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On November 18 2020 10:31 Itsxjoeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2020 09:46 JJH777 wrote:On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote:
It’s silly to say serral isn’t the goat because he has never competed in the gsl. It’s silly to say maru can’t be the goat because he can’t win outside of Korea/Asia. That being said, just going by the eye test, serral has been the most consistent out of every player for the past 3 years. Reynor and Clem are great and they do beat serral sometimes but serral has winning records lifetime against both. Serral is the goat whether people like it or not. The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl? Consistency alone doesn't make someone the goat. If that was the case Soo would have started earning goat mentions when he was getting 2nd in everything and looked like the best besides finals. Winning when it matters is just as important. Especially when online cross server results always have an asterisk and prize pools are weighted so heavily for certain events. From the start of 2018 to now when it has mattered the absolute most (>6 figure prizepools) Serral is only 1-6. Still impressive but that Blizzcon is his only real Tier 1 victory. Then he has his 2 GSL vs The World's which are impressive but still not quite to the level of Code S/Blizzcon/IEM, and even wesg. Everything else he's won was either region locked, online, or a small prizepool relative to the big events. Also the fact that he did absolutely nothing before 2018 makes it hard to call him the goat unless he starts winning basically everything which he hasn't done. I don’t care about what tier a tournament is, like I said..the eye test. Regardless of any prize pool the bottom line remains Serral still beats everyone he plays 9 out of 10 times. What’s the difference between Maru/stats/rogue/dark etc. in GSL or BlizzCon or GSLvsTW? Are they not trying as hard because it’s not gsl? Your argument kind of collapses on itself. There are no asterisks when it comes to the goat convo. No excuses. You wanna call yourself the goat, there are no excuses. You either get it done or you don’t.
In the games themselves yeah they are absolutely still trying. The difference is are they practicing 8 hours a day for weeks leading up to the event? Obviously no one knows for sure but I don't think so and most things we hear from the Korean scene agrees with that. For example Special said Maru had not played SC2 at all since losing to TY in the GSL finals prior to this event. We also know for a fact that TY has been spending most of his time on Brood War post GSL finals. Most of the top Korean pros right now are kind of lazy and really only practice constantly when there is a $100k event coming up. It's hard to blame them especially the ones who were getting Kespa salaries during proleague. They've played the game full-time for anywhere from 8-10 years now depending on which player we're talking about. It's not hard to imagine that they're really only motivated to be in top form during $100k events.
Alternatively how do you explain Serral's relative under-performance in 6 figure events? Does he play worse or do the Koreans step it up? If you think it's just chance how many more events do we need before we can say it's not that? If he doesn't win IEM and WESG next year will that be enough? That's exactly why he should play GSL because it happens often enough that we could say it's not chance.
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Slap a pair of horns on ol Serral cause hes looking like a GOAT. 
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"Alternatively how do you explain Serral's relative under-performance in 6 figure events? Does he play worse or do the Koreans step it up? If you think it's just chance how many more events do we need before we can say it's not that? If he doesn't win IEM and WESG next year will that be enough? That's exactly why he should play GSL because it happens often enough that we could say it's not chance. "
Relative under-performance? The problem is the sample size & tournament format, it's like 5 tournaments. He finishes pretty high almost always.
Single elim tournaments are extremely luck prone.
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Honestly, by now winning an offline DreamHack should be rated higher than winning a GSL. Bot tournaments follow the same pattern, where few players dominate the competition, but with a DH you have the stress of traveling, giving interviews in your non-native language and so on.
I never understood why Serral (or any other foreigner for that matter) had to proof himself in the GSL, a competition that blocks a lot of your regular schedule, why koreans always got the benefit of being in the absolute comfort zone. That even translates into DHs...for example, a player can speak the most broken english ever, he has to do the winner interview...except when you are korean, than Smix will do like 90% of the interview for you (I don't speak korean, but c'mon...her english-translation is like double the length of the korean answer she got). "But they don't speak english very well"...how can this be an issue with esports being around for 20 years?
Sorry, starting to rant again...
TL;DR: When you don't have an IEM Katowice or BlizzCon title, you cannot be the GOAT, period. Even if you have a hundred GSL titles. For comparison: Roger Federer is the GOAT in tennis, even though Nadal has the same amount of Major wins. But Nadals win are like ~60% in the French Open, which is a special format compared to "normal" tennis. He obviously is the GOAT in this format, but you have to proof yourself outside your home turf.
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On November 18 2020 13:32 Balnazza wrote:
Honestly, by now winning an offline DreamHack should be rated higher than winning a GSL. Bot tournaments follow the same pattern, where few players dominate the competition, but with a DH you have the stress of traveling, giving interviews in your non-native language and so on.
I never understood why Serral (or any other foreigner for that matter) had to proof himself in the GSL, a competition that blocks a lot of your regular schedule, why koreans always got the benefit of being in the absolute comfort zone. That even translates into DHs...for example, a player can speak the most broken english ever, he has to do the winner interview...except when you are korean, than Smix will do like 90% of the interview for you (I don't speak korean, but c'mon...her english-translation is like double the length of the korean answer she got). "But they don't speak english very well"...how can this be an issue with esports being around for 20 years?
Sorry, starting to rant again...
TL;DR: When you don't have an IEM Katowice or BlizzCon title, you cannot be the GOAT, period. Even if you have a hundred GSL titles. For comparison: Roger Federer is the GOAT in tennis, even though Nadal has the same amount of Major wins. But Nadals win are like ~60% in the French Open, which is a special format compared to "normal" tennis. He obviously is the GOAT in this format, but you have to proof yourself outside your home turf.
So you're basically saying you care more about who plays well in shitty conditions rather than who plays well when everyone is at peak condition and who plays better in a high stress situation after traveling. That seems absurd to me but at least you admit it instead of making up some BS about how weekenders take more stamina or something.
Your comments on Korean interviews are borderline racist and the exact opposite of what I observe. A lot of the times the answer in Korean is far longer than the translation.
The last part is funny considering before 2018 literally no one who won a Blizzcon or Katowice was in contention for GOAT and that was agreed upon by basically the entire community. I guess Mvp won a Blizzcon but that was before it was anything special.
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'GOAT' is strange concept.
If in a group nobody checks all boxes required to be 'Undisputed GOAT', those who check most of boxes are most Goatiest of them all. But if someone is clearly more Goaty and goat-like than others without being clearly the GOAT, then he/she is indeed the GOAT, by definition of the term. How lacking his resume ever can be when compared to the ideal of GOAT, - qualitatively or quantitatively -, if he is lacking less then others, then he is the GOAT. Also, someone considered the GOAT now can lose that status in the future, and someone having been that in the past can cease to be now. An important part of Goatiness is also consistency and longevity of a player's showinga of Goatishque qualities, i.e. his/hers peak can be the best ever, but that alone doesn't make anyone the Goat over years and decades.
Short-list of candidates currently: Serral, Innovation, Maru, Rogue. (in no particular order).
IMO, Serral is currently most GOATiest guy playing there, but not with a large margin. That can change of course. If he remains the most Goatiest guy, also the margin of it can change, to either direction.
Ultimately the decision whom is The GOAT can be done only after the state of the game has really hit to that "rock bottom", globally, and competitively, but then there is going to be a problem with the end status evaluation too: nobody is doing such thing anymore as nobody care enough to bonder with it because nobody will be really interested about it anymore.
So, whatever. GG Serral!
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Thanks for the VOD link, man. I really need to watch the Grand Final games of Neeb vs Astrea. Good job, ESL. I wonder how Serral won the championship, though, since he's not in the Grand Final.
Sarcasm, if it's not too obvious. I won't give a fxxk of any ESL games from now on. GSL is the best. TY is the current world champion.
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Every Korean lost in the group stages?? That is mighty... uhh.. statistically unlikely.
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EPT
