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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On November 23 2020 22:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 13:32 JJH777 wrote:On November 20 2020 11:40 Xain0n wrote:On November 20 2020 06:10 Luolis wrote:On November 20 2020 05:49 Charoisaur wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive. The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going. If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words). It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest. Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries. For the record I have no doubt that you would not rate Serral as highly if he was Korean. I was just saying Taeja is similar and some people would still overrate him. I also think it's funny that you're trying to take some type of moral high ground about being happy when players lose despite how clearly you've enjoyed some of Maru's losses. Taeja is pretty underrated IMO, kind of how Serral is in some quarters, namely the lack of those GSLs. From the actual level of play he was showing in his peak years and results against the same players in every competition but GSL, Taeja was a better player than some give him credit for these days. Even if they were mere fleeting summers Taeja did have periods where he was probably the best player in the world, not many can have that on their resume.
While I love summer Taeja and clapping, he sadly never delivered in the big tourneys. IIRC he didn't even win the WCS NA. Funny thing is, that Taeja got some nice RO4(Code S, Blizzcon), but it's ignored the same way the Maru's are, at least people are consistent in this across all Koreans.
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We calleth you, oh great Nakajin, maker of surveys and contest. Make thy new GOAT discussion for we, the people, are desperately in need!
On November 20 2020 18:56 deacon.frost wrote:Serral, the Savior of the scene. Also how does he revitalized the Korean scene? If you're talking abotu the whole scene. How did he help the NA scene exactly? or SA if that matters Edit> you can replace some scenes with the game if it helps 
I don't have the numbers to back this up but I'm pretty sure viewership in all regions have gone up in 2018 which is largely Serral's fault
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On November 23 2020 22:53 Harris1st wrote:We calleth you, oh great Nakajin, maker of surveys and contest. Make thy new GOAT discussion for we, the people, are desperately in need! Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 18:56 deacon.frost wrote:Serral, the Savior of the scene. Also how does he revitalized the Korean scene? If you're talking abotu the whole scene. How did he help the NA scene exactly? or SA if that matters Edit> you can replace some scenes with the game if it helps I don't have the numbers to back this up but I'm pretty sure viewership in all regions have gone up in 2018 which is largely Serral's fault
I don\t have the numbers to back this up, but I'm pretty sure the viewership in Korea was increased by the phenomen named Maru. It's your feeling vs mine feeling.
(also not sure if the Korean numbers even got higher, but imma rolling with this feeling battles)
Edit> Actually, the first reported increase in the viewership in 2018 is from March, which is not when Serral was in his prime powah because that's when he got his ass kicked at WESG by, uh, Maru
It actually may be connected to the fact, that in 2018 it was the 20-year anniversary of SC and Blizzard was actually promoting SC across the boards.
Edit 2> again, as i mentioned earlier, the biggest viewership are getting FvK, so some increase was thanks to Serral, but saying Serral saved all the regions, increased viewership across all the regions while Blizzard was promoting SC content is somewhat funny.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/842pv1/march_2018_has_the_biggest_sc2_viewership_since/
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On November 23 2020 22:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 22:53 Harris1st wrote:We calleth you, oh great Nakajin, maker of surveys and contest. Make thy new GOAT discussion for we, the people, are desperately in need! On November 20 2020 18:56 deacon.frost wrote:Serral, the Savior of the scene. Also how does he revitalized the Korean scene? If you're talking abotu the whole scene. How did he help the NA scene exactly? or SA if that matters Edit> you can replace some scenes with the game if it helps I don't have the numbers to back this up but I'm pretty sure viewership in all regions have gone up in 2018 which is largely Serral's fault I don\t have the numbers to back this up, but I'm pretty sure the viewership in Korea was increased by the phenomen named Maru. It's your feeling vs mine feeling. (also not sure if the Korean numbers even got higher, but imma rolling with this feeling battles) Edit> Actually, the first reported increase in the viewership in 2018 is from March, which is not when Serral was in his prime powah because that's when he got his ass kicked at WESG by, uh, Maru It actually may be connected to the fact, that in 2018 it was the 20-year anniversary of SC and Blizzard was actually promoting SC across the boards. Edit 2> again, as i mentioned earlier, the biggest viewership are getting FvK, so some increase was thanks to Serral, but saying Serral saved all the regions, increased viewership across all the regions while Blizzard was promoting SC content is somewhat funny. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/842pv1/march_2018_has_the_biggest_sc2_viewership_since/
Only found this with a quick search. Still at work :/
Twitch numbers:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/X1A2kPL.jpg)
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On November 23 2020 22:47 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 22:19 WombaT wrote:On November 20 2020 13:32 JJH777 wrote:On November 20 2020 11:40 Xain0n wrote:On November 20 2020 06:10 Luolis wrote:On November 20 2020 05:49 Charoisaur wrote:On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion...
I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame.
This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses. People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be. We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive. The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going. If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words). It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest. Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries. For the record I have no doubt that you would not rate Serral as highly if he was Korean. I was just saying Taeja is similar and some people would still overrate him. I also think it's funny that you're trying to take some type of moral high ground about being happy when players lose despite how clearly you've enjoyed some of Maru's losses. Taeja is pretty underrated IMO, kind of how Serral is in some quarters, namely the lack of those GSLs. From the actual level of play he was showing in his peak years and results against the same players in every competition but GSL, Taeja was a better player than some give him credit for these days. Even if they were mere fleeting summers Taeja did have periods where he was probably the best player in the world, not many can have that on their resume. While I love summer Taeja and clapping, he sadly never delivered in the big tourneys. IIRC he didn't even win the WCS NA. Funny thing is, that Taeja got some nice RO4(Code S, Blizzcon), but it's ignored the same way the Maru's are, at least people are consistent in this across all Koreans.
I would say Taeja and Maru's Top 4 are underrated the same way Serral's Top 4 are.
In adition to the enormous count of premiers hes got, he still has
2 IEMs Top 4,
1 Top 2 WESG,
1 Top 3 WESG,
1 Top 4 Global Finals and
1 Top 4 Asus Rog
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On November 20 2020 08:28 Alovelyusername wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2020 06:21 JJH777 wrote:
I think a Korean with Serrals record would be mentioned as a goat candidate but there is no doubt in my mind there would be way less people who think that. These discussions remind me of when people thought Taeja was the goat which in my opinion never made any sense. Sure there was a period of time where had had more first places in premiers than any other players but they were lower quality premiers and unless I'm misremembering he has still to date never won anything on the level of GSL, a world championship, or anything else with a 6 figure prize pool. Serral is similar except he actually does have a world championship but that's his only truly major tournament. Homestory cups, WCS, GSL vs the world, these online finals, are all great and are definitely not easy to win but in my opinion you'll never be GOAT with just those no matter how many you win. depends, nobody took Polt/MMA or MC that seriously when they were winning WCS NA and EU easily because these tournaments were borderline worthless because all the talent was in GSL. That is basically what Serral is doing. Winning tournaments when the competition is at its lowest ever in sc2. Is that unfair to Serral? Well, on 1 hand, he will never be able to prove how good he is since he only became relevant when sc2 became borderline dead. On the other hand, the fact that the competition level is soooooo abysmal right now allowed him to get a shit ton of cash. So while he will never get to be considered a GOAT by people with average knowledge of the game because he never played in a competitive era, he got rich. Not a bad trade if you ask me.
There are grandmasters and professionals who consider Serral a GOAT. Do they have enough knowledge for u?
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On November 19 2020 11:14 tskarzyn wrote:
Serral is easily the most reliable weekend Euro tournament player. Considering he typically only plays Koreans when they are jetlagged or playing at crazy hours on high ping, I'm not sure we really know how he stacks up against the GOAT contenders. (When he had to travel to Korea for blizzcon last year, he had a top-4 finish. Solid, but considering how strong Zerg was I'm not sure it's that impressive.)
Uh, hello, 2 GSL's vs The World?
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EPT
