DreamHack Masters: Winter Serral wins the Season Finals
Finland's Serral triumphed 4-2 over Stats in the grand finals of DreamHack Masters Winter, winning his first major title in nearly four months. For Serral fans, those four months might have felt four years, with Reynor and Clem rising to contend for the European throne while Serral fell to the wayside. Now, with Serral's victory in the Winter Finals, and Clem's earlier championship run in the European regional, the three-way race at the top of the European scene seems like it has reached its most competitive point yet.
While the bracket worked out so that Serral faced neither Reynor nor Clem in his Winter Finals run, the upcoming tournaments of ASUS ROG Online (Nov 27-29) and TeamLiquid Starleague 6 (Dec 5-20) presents him with opportunities to take them on head-to-head before the year is out.
Curiously enough, Serral's return to power may have only been the third most interesting storyline of the tournament. Stats fighting through the bracket and earning a finals match against frequent foe Serral was no surprise—despite his growing inconsistency, Stats' GSL games had shown that his peak-level skill was still championship-tier. The truly shocking thing was how poorly all the other Korean players performed. Reigning Code S champion TY went out in the quarterfinals, swept by the USA's Neeb. Code S runner-up Maru couldn't even make it out of the group stage, losing to Clem and Armani (who was eliminated in turn by Clem). INnoVation and Trap were also victims of shocking group stage upsets.
That brings us to the other major theme of the tournament: the remarkable success of North American players, coming at the cost of the GSL's finest. While NA only had two season finals representatives in the form of Neeb and Astrea, both players made a huge impact on the tournament. Neeb defeated Clem and Armani in the group stage, and then swept TY to earn a top four finish. Astrea eliminated Trap in the group stages, and took Stats to a full five-game series in the quarterfinals before bowing out.
Have we reached a period of unprecedented parity in competitive StarCraft II? Or was the Winter Finals simply the outlier among outliers, a fluke to never be repeated? Again, with ASUS ROG Online and TeamLiquid Starleague 6 coming up in the next few weeks, we may soon get some answers.
Game 1 - Deathaura: The state of late-game PvZ has been a heated topic of debate as of late, and this limited one-game sample supported the side of 'Protoss OP.' The first half of this game was a quiet, most passive build-up, with neither player able to hamper each other's economy or growth. The second half of the game saw the end-game Protoss composition of Carriers + support face off against the Zerg's Corruptors and assorted spellcaster support. While such situations often lead to lengthy stalemates, Stats brought the game to a relatively quick end by burning his way through Zerg territory, fighting efficiently against the opposing Swarm, and eventually extracting the GG from Serral's hands.
Game 2- Jagannatha: Game two looked like it might be decided early, as Stats' micro mistake saw him lose his initial Oracle to Queens before it could do any damage. We've seen Serral slowly but surely snowball his way to victory off of smaller advantages—however, Stats skillfully played his way into an even mid-game, credibly threatening Serral with Glaive-Adepts and preventing the Zerg economy from getting out of control.
It seemed like Stats had gotten out of the early/mid-game on even terms with the Zerg, and would be free to make a transition to Carriers and try to take a late-game win once again. However, Serral wasn't about to sit back and let that happen. Combining a devastating Baneling drop with a frontal Hydralisk-Baneling attack, Serral shattered Stats' defenses just as he was trying to transition to Carriers, bringing the game to a jarring conclusion.
Game 3 - Pillars of Gold: Stats brought out the recently trending 3-Stargate Void Ray opener, and he ended up being able to show how well it performs against Spire tech. Despite catching whiff of the Void Rays, Serral decided to go for Mutalisks anyway—but only got seven kills Probe before Phoenixes rendered them useless. Serral then pumped out Corruptors to counter the Void Rays, but all his investment in air left him with a very weak ground force.
The Zest-style (or should it be credited to someone else?) Void Ray opener aims to make a rapid transition to a strong ground army after the initial group of Void Rays, and Stats soon had a ground army that was far scarier than Serral's hastily produced Roaches and Ravagers. Stats didn't let this advantage go to waste, and battered Serral with his superior ground forces to take his second win of the series.
Game 4 - Lightshade: Serral opened with a Pool-first build to start, which Stats scouted and held off without too much trouble. Both players macroed up after that, and looked to be on relatively even footing as they headed to another potential late-game battle. However, Serral once again found a window to kill off Stats before he could transition to Carriers, striking with another Hydralisk-Baneling army at max supply. Stats' "Shield of Aiur" reputation failed him in this instance, with his army getting caught defending in an awkward position where his Templars were barely able to get off any useful storms. Stats saw his forces get crushed, and he conceded the tying GG of the series.
Game 5 - Oxide: Stats brought out another Oracle opener, and once again failed to do much early game damage to Serral's economy. Nonetheless, Stats managed to set himself on three bases without much of a deficit, and aimed to go for a Blink-Stalker + Colossus composition. Interestingly enough, Serral had said in a prior interview that he finds this composition to be easy to face, and he eventually backed his words up.
But Serral had to navigate a crisis first, as his Roach-Ravager-Bane swarm fared poorly against Stats' initial major attack at +2 attack timing. While Serral survived the attack, the initiative had definitely gone over to Stats, who looked to mass more troops and finish Serral off with a second blow. However, Serral completely turned things around when Stats looked to attack with +3 attack upgrades, executing a devastating Zergling flank while fighting with Roaches and Ravagers at the front. This totally broke the high-tech core of the Protoss, and Serral was able finish Stats off not long after.
Game 6 - Submarine: Serral went for another Pool-first build on a short-distance map, and Stats once again held off the early Zerglings without much trouble. Stats then turned the tables on Serral and got aggressive himself, using Adepts to keep Serral contained on two bases for quite some time. Stats looked to keep the pressure up, transitioning into Glaive-Adepts and following up with Disruptor drops. Serral handled all of this calmly, ceding ground where needed but ultimately setting himself up on a reasonable economy. As for Stats himself, he was content to go up to four bases behind all this pressure, once again assembling a Stalker-Colossus army.
The game came to an abrupt end when Serral looked to attack Stats' warping fourth with Roach-Ravager-Baneling. While Stats' army looked like it was big enough to handle the attack, Stats' Force Field placement was less-than-perfect, allowing Banelings to squeeze through and get some huge detonations. With the Zerg Swarm trampling over the Protoss army, Stats had no choice but to concede the final GG.
I would still consider Serral in a slump until he wins about half of the tournaments he enters. This is an absurdly high standard, but Serral has shown that he can meet it. If he wins one of ASUS ROG or TSL6 and goes deep in the other I'll consider the slump over.
Have we reached a period of unprecedented parity in competitive StarCraft II? Or was the Winter Finals simply the outlier among outliers, a fluke to never be repeated? Again, with ASUS ROG Online and TeamLiquid Starleague 6 coming up in the next few weeks, we may soon get some answers
Amazing Performance from Neeb and Astrea in particular. The Euro Boys did pretty much as expected. And Time beating Inno isn t even that insane, After all he s the Kaizi ACE, while Inno is not Jones aside, they are practisepartners for a very long time now and know each other Inside out. Obviously those games are going to be close. GGs Lets hope the Koreans will surge Back strong in the next events with all their might. The insane turnout on the Open cups indicates at least, that they will, nie the race for every Single EPT point is on. The final strech for Katowice will be great
On November 17 2020 04:58 Serimek wrote: TIME performance is to be highlighted as well in my opinion. It is very much alike Astrea's.
x2, Time even took Serral to a 5th game.
Maru's last group finish was totally unexpected.
I actually think TIME's performances against Serral are kinda overhyped. Serral gave away 2 of those games. Had he played his usual defensive standard he wins 3-0.
As for Maru, it was 100% expected. He's injured and unable to practice. You don't even have to go into the "online Maru" or "weekender Maru" usual lines.
On November 17 2020 04:58 Serimek wrote: TIME performance is to be highlighted as well in my opinion. It is very much alike Astrea's.
x2, Time even took Serral to a 5th game.
Maru's last group finish was totally unexpected.
I actually think TIME's performances against Serral are kinda overhyped. Serral gave away 2 of those games. Had he played his usual defensive standard he wins 3-0.
As for Maru, it was 100% expected. He's injured and unable to practice. You don't even have to go into the "online Maru" or "weekender Maru" usual lines.
I’ve to ask, whats are these weekender/online Maru lines?
On November 17 2020 04:58 Serimek wrote: TIME performance is to be highlighted as well in my opinion. It is very much alike Astrea's.
x2, Time even took Serral to a 5th game.
Maru's last group finish was totally unexpected.
I actually think TIME's performances against Serral are kinda overhyped. Serral gave away 2 of those games. Had he played his usual defensive standard he wins 3-0.
As for Maru, it was 100% expected. He's injured and unable to practice. You don't even have to go into the "online Maru" or "weekender Maru" usual lines.
I’ve to ask, whats are these weekender/online Maru lines?
Simple observations based on results. Maru performs generally worse during weekenders(compared to his standards) and very rarely wins them; the same can be said for online tournaments. It's also always interesting to remember he never won any tournament outside of Asia.
On November 17 2020 04:58 Serimek wrote: TIME performance is to be highlighted as well in my opinion. It is very much alike Astrea's.
x2, Time even took Serral to a 5th game.
Maru's last group finish was totally unexpected.
I actually think TIME's performances against Serral are kinda overhyped. Serral gave away 2 of those games. Had he played his usual defensive standard he wins 3-0.
As for Maru, it was 100% expected. He's injured and unable to practice. You don't even have to go into the "online Maru" or "weekender Maru" usual lines.
I’ve to ask, whats are these weekender/online Maru lines?
Delusion. The only reason Maru hasn't won weekenders is because he doesn't go to them. Maru exclusively plays in Korean tournaments, the very occasional online event, WESG, IEMs, and Blizzcons. Go through his tournament history all the way back to the start of his career and all of his tournaments are one of the above. He never accepted invites or tried to qualify for any of the mid tier weekend events (HSCs, MLGs, ASUS tournaments, the old Dreamhack and Red Bull events etc.) He also exclusively played in the larger IEM events. With that in mind he has done fine in weekend events. He won a WESG. Has another finals appearance in one. Has a finals appearance and multiple ro4s in various IEM events.
On November 17 2020 04:58 Serimek wrote: TIME performance is to be highlighted as well in my opinion. It is very much alike Astrea's.
x2, Time even took Serral to a 5th game.
Maru's last group finish was totally unexpected.
I actually think TIME's performances against Serral are kinda overhyped. Serral gave away 2 of those games. Had he played his usual defensive standard he wins 3-0.
As for Maru, it was 100% expected. He's injured and unable to practice. You don't even have to go into the "online Maru" or "weekender Maru" usual lines.
I’ve to ask, whats are these weekender/online Maru lines?
Delusion. The only reason Maru hasn't won weekenders is because he doesn't go to them. Maru exclusively plays in Korean tournaments, the very occasional online event, WESG, IEMs, and Blizzcons. Go through his tournament history all the way back to the start of his career and all of his tournaments are one of the above. He never accepted invites or tried to qualify for any of the mid tier weekend events (HSCs, MLGs, ASUS tournaments, the old Dreamhack and Red Bull events etc.) He also exclusively played in the larger IEM events. With that in mind he has done fine in weekend events. He won a WESG. Has another finals appearance in one. Has a finals appearance and multiple ro4s in various IEM events.
And yet has never won a major champ outside Asia. Thats why, unfortunately, he cant be argued for the GOAT. Unlike Rogue, Serral and Innovation.
On November 17 2020 04:58 Serimek wrote: TIME performance is to be highlighted as well in my opinion. It is very much alike Astrea's.
x2, Time even took Serral to a 5th game.
Maru's last group finish was totally unexpected.
I actually think TIME's performances against Serral are kinda overhyped. Serral gave away 2 of those games. Had he played his usual defensive standard he wins 3-0.
As for Maru, it was 100% expected. He's injured and unable to practice. You don't even have to go into the "online Maru" or "weekender Maru" usual lines.
I’ve to ask, whats are these weekender/online Maru lines?
Delusion. The only reason Maru hasn't won weekenders is because he doesn't go to them. Maru exclusively plays in Korean tournaments, the very occasional online event, WESG, IEMs, and Blizzcons. Go through his tournament history all the way back to the start of his career and all of his tournaments are one of the above. He never accepted invites or tried to qualify for any of the mid tier weekend events (HSCs, MLGs, ASUS tournaments, the old Dreamhack and Red Bull events etc.) He also exclusively played in the larger IEM events. With that in mind he has done fine in weekend events. He won a WESG. Has another finals appearance in one. Has a finals appearance and multiple ro4s in various IEM events.
And yet has never won a major champ outside Asia. Thats why, unfortunately, he cant be argued for the GOAT. Unlike Rogue, Serral and Innovation.
You realize Inno has only won a single premier outside of Asia right? And it won him significantly less than Maru's two top 4s in Katowice. If winning outside of Asia is a criteria for GOAT (which it's not) then Inno definitely does not make the cut either.
On November 17 2020 11:00 Riner1212 wrote: goat got saved cuz of stats lol
@locutos.
Not Serrals fault
Still doesnt convince me that he is the GOAT. lol. unless if he wins 5 gsls then i will say he is the greatest of all time, but him winning 5 gsl's will never happen, dont see why ppl say hes the GOAT, but then again clem is on the rise and has owned him twice. serral got lucky he didnt run into a clem. you know it, i know it, everyone else knows it. clem is just going to get better and better and there no stopping the ZERG SLAYER!
On November 17 2020 04:58 Serimek wrote: TIME performance is to be highlighted as well in my opinion. It is very much alike Astrea's.
x2, Time even took Serral to a 5th game.
Maru's last group finish was totally unexpected.
I actually think TIME's performances against Serral are kinda overhyped. Serral gave away 2 of those games. Had he played his usual defensive standard he wins 3-0.
As for Maru, it was 100% expected. He's injured and unable to practice. You don't even have to go into the "online Maru" or "weekender Maru" usual lines.
I’ve to ask, whats are these weekender/online Maru lines?
Delusion. The only reason Maru hasn't won weekenders is because he doesn't go to them. Maru exclusively plays in Korean tournaments, the very occasional online event, WESG, IEMs, and Blizzcons. Go through his tournament history all the way back to the start of his career and all of his tournaments are one of the above. He never accepted invites or tried to qualify for any of the mid tier weekend events (HSCs, MLGs, ASUS tournaments, the old Dreamhack and Red Bull events etc.) He also exclusively played in the larger IEM events. With that in mind he has done fine in weekend events. He won a WESG. Has another finals appearance in one. Has a finals appearance and multiple ro4s in various IEM events.
And yet has never won a major champ outside Asia. Thats why, unfortunately, he cant be argued for the GOAT. Unlike Rogue, Serral and Innovation.
If winning outside of Asia is a must, than I say winning a proper COde S titles is a must. It's the only preparational tournament on the market, it tests a different set of skills and thus we can't talk about Serral.
It’s silly to say serral isn’t the goat because he has never competed in the gsl. It’s silly to say maru can’t be the goat because he can’t win outside of Korea/Asia. That being said, just going by the eye test, serral has been the most consistent out of every player for the past 3 years. Reynor and Clem are great and they do beat serral sometimes but serral has winning records lifetime against both. Serral is the goat whether people like it or not. The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote: It’s silly to say serral isn’t the goat because he has never competed in the gsl. It’s silly to say maru can’t be the goat because he can’t win outside of Korea/Asia. That being said, just going by the eye test, serral has been the most consistent out of every player for the past 3 years. Reynor and Clem are great and they do beat serral sometimes but serral has winning records lifetime against both. Serral is the goat whether people like it or not. The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
Consistency alone doesn't make someone the goat. If that was the case Soo would have started earning goat mentions when he was getting 2nd in everything and looked like the best besides finals. Winning when it matters is just as important. Especially when online cross server results always have an asterisk and prize pools are weighted so heavily for certain events. From the start of 2018 to now when it has mattered the absolute most (>6 figure prizepools) Serral is only 1-6. Still impressive but that Blizzcon is his only real Tier 1 victory. Then he has his 2 GSL vs The World's which are impressive but still not quite to the level of Code S/Blizzcon/IEM, and even wesg. Everything else he's won was either region locked, online, or a small prizepool relative to the big events. Also the fact that he did absolutely nothing before 2018 makes it hard to call him the goat unless he starts winning basically everything which he hasn't done.
On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote: The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
And you ignore the consistency of Maru and Innovation in an arguably much harder and tougher competition over the decade?
On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote: It’s silly to say serral isn’t the goat because he has never competed in the gsl. It’s silly to say maru can’t be the goat because he can’t win outside of Korea/Asia. That being said, just going by the eye test, serral has been the most consistent out of every player for the past 3 years. Reynor and Clem are great and they do beat serral sometimes but serral has winning records lifetime against both. Serral is the goat whether people like it or not. The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
Consistency alone doesn't make someone the goat. If that was the case Soo would have started earning goat mentions when he was getting 2nd in everything and looked like the best besides finals. Winning when it matters is just as important. Especially when online cross server results always have an asterisk and prize pools are weighted so heavily for certain events. From the start of 2018 to now when it has mattered the absolute most (>6 figure prizepools) Serral is only 1-6. Still impressive but that Blizzcon is his only real Tier 1 victory. Then he has his 2 GSL vs The World's which are impressive but still not quite to the level of Code S/Blizzcon/IEM, and even wesg. Everything else he's won was either region locked, online, or a small prizepool relative to the big events. Also the fact that he did absolutely nothing before 2018 makes it hard to call him the goat unless he starts winning basically everything which he hasn't done.
I don’t care about what tier a tournament is, like I said..the eye test. Regardless of any prize pool the bottom line remains Serral still beats everyone he plays 9 out of 10 times. What’s the difference between Maru/stats/rogue/dark etc. in GSL or BlizzCon or GSLvsTW? Are they not trying as hard because it’s not gsl? Your argument kind of collapses on itself. There are no asterisks when it comes to the goat convo. No excuses. You wanna call yourself the goat, there are no excuses. You either get it done or you don’t.
On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote: The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
And you ignore the consistency of Maru and Innovation in an arguably much harder and tougher competition over the decade?
They’re legends of course, but when I watch Serral play I’m constantly in awe over the things he does with his keyboard and mouse. He makes playing late game Zerg controlling multiple spellcasters and units without getting stormed/feedback to death look like a work of art. He’s just more impressive when it comes to gameplay of all types too be honest.
On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote: The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
And you ignore the consistency of Maru and Innovation in an arguably much harder and tougher competition over the decade?
They’re legends of course, but when I watch Serral play I’m constantly in awe over the things he does with his keyboard and mouse. He makes playing late game Zerg controlling multiple spellcasters and units without getting stormed/feedback to death look like a work of art. He’s just more impressive when it comes to gameplay of all types too be honest.
Then I don't think you realize the level of performance of these players and what they are doing. I'm not denigrating what Serral has accomplished and his level of play, but for example what Maru has done for the Terran race is nothing short of ridiculous during his GSL run. What Maru did for the level of play for Terran is what Serral did for Zerg. In fact, I think it's an even greater accomplishment because it was literally *only* him carrying the Terran banner in the world at that time, unlike what we have now.
I think because the casters don't give enough credit to what Maru has accomplished and his level of play that people have this perception that Serral's accomplishment/performance is way better than Maru's.
On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote: It’s silly to say serral isn’t the goat because he has never competed in the gsl. It’s silly to say maru can’t be the goat because he can’t win outside of Korea/Asia. That being said, just going by the eye test, serral has been the most consistent out of every player for the past 3 years. Reynor and Clem are great and they do beat serral sometimes but serral has winning records lifetime against both. Serral is the goat whether people like it or not. The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
Consistency alone doesn't make someone the goat. If that was the case Soo would have started earning goat mentions when he was getting 2nd in everything and looked like the best besides finals. Winning when it matters is just as important. Especially when online cross server results always have an asterisk and prize pools are weighted so heavily for certain events. From the start of 2018 to now when it has mattered the absolute most (>6 figure prizepools) Serral is only 1-6. Still impressive but that Blizzcon is his only real Tier 1 victory. Then he has his 2 GSL vs The World's which are impressive but still not quite to the level of Code S/Blizzcon/IEM, and even wesg. Everything else he's won was either region locked, online, or a small prizepool relative to the big events. Also the fact that he did absolutely nothing before 2018 makes it hard to call him the goat unless he starts winning basically everything which he hasn't done.
I don’t care about what tier a tournament is, like I said..the eye test. Regardless of any prize pool the bottom line remains Serral still beats everyone he plays 9 out of 10 times. What’s the difference between Maru/stats/rogue/dark etc. in GSL or BlizzCon or GSLvsTW? Are they not trying as hard because it’s not gsl? Your argument kind of collapses on itself. There are no asterisks when it comes to the goat convo. No excuses. You wanna call yourself the goat, there are no excuses. You either get it done or you don’t.
In the games themselves yeah they are absolutely still trying. The difference is are they practicing 8 hours a day for weeks leading up to the event? Obviously no one knows for sure but I don't think so and most things we hear from the Korean scene agrees with that. For example Special said Maru had not played SC2 at all since losing to TY in the GSL finals prior to this event. We also know for a fact that TY has been spending most of his time on Brood War post GSL finals. Most of the top Korean pros right now are kind of lazy and really only practice constantly when there is a $100k event coming up. It's hard to blame them especially the ones who were getting Kespa salaries during proleague. They've played the game full-time for anywhere from 8-10 years now depending on which player we're talking about. It's not hard to imagine that they're really only motivated to be in top form during $100k events.
Alternatively how do you explain Serral's relative under-performance in 6 figure events? Does he play worse or do the Koreans step it up? If you think it's just chance how many more events do we need before we can say it's not that? If he doesn't win IEM and WESG next year will that be enough? That's exactly why he should play GSL because it happens often enough that we could say it's not chance.
"Alternatively how do you explain Serral's relative under-performance in 6 figure events? Does he play worse or do the Koreans step it up? If you think it's just chance how many more events do we need before we can say it's not that? If he doesn't win IEM and WESG next year will that be enough? That's exactly why he should play GSL because it happens often enough that we could say it's not chance. "
Relative under-performance? The problem is the sample size & tournament format, it's like 5 tournaments. He finishes pretty high almost always.
Honestly, by now winning an offline DreamHack should be rated higher than winning a GSL. Bot tournaments follow the same pattern, where few players dominate the competition, but with a DH you have the stress of traveling, giving interviews in your non-native language and so on. I never understood why Serral (or any other foreigner for that matter) had to proof himself in the GSL, a competition that blocks a lot of your regular schedule, why koreans always got the benefit of being in the absolute comfort zone. That even translates into DHs...for example, a player can speak the most broken english ever, he has to do the winner interview...except when you are korean, than Smix will do like 90% of the interview for you (I don't speak korean, but c'mon...her english-translation is like double the length of the korean answer she got). "But they don't speak english very well"...how can this be an issue with esports being around for 20 years?
Sorry, starting to rant again...
TL;DR: When you don't have an IEM Katowice or BlizzCon title, you cannot be the GOAT, period. Even if you have a hundred GSL titles. For comparison: Roger Federer is the GOAT in tennis, even though Nadal has the same amount of Major wins. But Nadals win are like ~60% in the French Open, which is a special format compared to "normal" tennis. He obviously is the GOAT in this format, but you have to proof yourself outside your home turf.
On November 18 2020 13:32 Balnazza wrote: Honestly, by now winning an offline DreamHack should be rated higher than winning a GSL. Bot tournaments follow the same pattern, where few players dominate the competition, but with a DH you have the stress of traveling, giving interviews in your non-native language and so on. I never understood why Serral (or any other foreigner for that matter) had to proof himself in the GSL, a competition that blocks a lot of your regular schedule, why koreans always got the benefit of being in the absolute comfort zone. That even translates into DHs...for example, a player can speak the most broken english ever, he has to do the winner interview...except when you are korean, than Smix will do like 90% of the interview for you (I don't speak korean, but c'mon...her english-translation is like double the length of the korean answer she got). "But they don't speak english very well"...how can this be an issue with esports being around for 20 years?
Sorry, starting to rant again...
TL;DR: When you don't have an IEM Katowice or BlizzCon title, you cannot be the GOAT, period. Even if you have a hundred GSL titles. For comparison: Roger Federer is the GOAT in tennis, even though Nadal has the same amount of Major wins. But Nadals win are like ~60% in the French Open, which is a special format compared to "normal" tennis. He obviously is the GOAT in this format, but you have to proof yourself outside your home turf.
So you're basically saying you care more about who plays well in shitty conditions rather than who plays well when everyone is at peak condition and who plays better in a high stress situation after traveling. That seems absurd to me but at least you admit it instead of making up some BS about how weekenders take more stamina or something.
Your comments on Korean interviews are borderline racist and the exact opposite of what I observe. A lot of the times the answer in Korean is far longer than the translation.
The last part is funny considering before 2018 literally no one who won a Blizzcon or Katowice was in contention for GOAT and that was agreed upon by basically the entire community. I guess Mvp won a Blizzcon but that was before it was anything special.
If in a group nobody checks all boxes required to be 'Undisputed GOAT', those who check most of boxes are most Goatiest of them all. But if someone is clearly more Goaty and goat-like than others without being clearly the GOAT, then he/she is indeed the GOAT, by definition of the term. How lacking his resume ever can be when compared to the ideal of GOAT, - qualitatively or quantitatively -, if he is lacking less then others, then he is the GOAT. Also, someone considered the GOAT now can lose that status in the future, and someone having been that in the past can cease to be now. An important part of Goatiness is also consistency and longevity of a player's showinga of Goatishque qualities, i.e. his/hers peak can be the best ever, but that alone doesn't make anyone the Goat over years and decades.
Short-list of candidates currently: Serral, Innovation, Maru, Rogue. (in no particular order).
IMO, Serral is currently most GOATiest guy playing there, but not with a large margin. That can change of course. If he remains the most Goatiest guy, also the margin of it can change, to either direction.
Ultimately the decision whom is The GOAT can be done only after the state of the game has really hit to that "rock bottom", globally, and competitively, but then there is going to be a problem with the end status evaluation too: nobody is doing such thing anymore as nobody care enough to bonder with it because nobody will be really interested about it anymore.
Thanks for the VOD link, man. I really need to watch the Grand Final games of Neeb vs Astrea. Good job, ESL. I wonder how Serral won the championship, though, since he's not in the Grand Final.
Sarcasm, if it's not too obvious. I won't give a fxxk of any ESL games from now on. GSL is the best. TY is the current world champion.
On November 18 2020 13:32 Balnazza wrote: Honestly, by now winning an offline DreamHack should be rated higher than winning a GSL. Bot tournaments follow the same pattern, where few players dominate the competition, but with a DH you have the stress of traveling, giving interviews in your non-native language and so on. I never understood why Serral (or any other foreigner for that matter) had to proof himself in the GSL, a competition that blocks a lot of your regular schedule, why koreans always got the benefit of being in the absolute comfort zone. That even translates into DHs...for example, a player can speak the most broken english ever, he has to do the winner interview...except when you are korean, than Smix will do like 90% of the interview for you (I don't speak korean, but c'mon...her english-translation is like double the length of the korean answer she got). "But they don't speak english very well"...how can this be an issue with esports being around for 20 years?
Sorry, starting to rant again...
TL;DR: When you don't have an IEM Katowice or BlizzCon title, you cannot be the GOAT, period. Even if you have a hundred GSL titles. For comparison: Roger Federer is the GOAT in tennis, even though Nadal has the same amount of Major wins. But Nadals win are like ~60% in the French Open, which is a special format compared to "normal" tennis. He obviously is the GOAT in this format, but you have to proof yourself outside your home turf.
So you're basically saying you care more about who plays well in shitty conditions rather than who plays well when everyone is at peak condition and who plays better in a high stress situation after traveling. That seems absurd to me but at least you admit it instead of making up some BS about how weekenders take more stamina or something.
Your comments on Korean interviews are borderline racist and the exact opposite of what I observe. A lot of the times the answer in Korean is far longer than the translation.
The last part is funny considering before 2018 literally no one who won a Blizzcon or Katowice was in contention for GOAT and that was agreed upon by basically the entire community. I guess Mvp won a Blizzcon but that was before it was anything special.
Well, for foreigners, GSL isn't about being in "peak condition". You still have to live in a foreign country whos language you probably don't speak and where english isn't always a possible solution. So it seems way fairer to me to have tournaments all around the world, where no one has this comfort zone.
It just annoys me a bit, that is all. As I said, for any other player you are expected to do an interview in english. And the community probably would be very angry with a player who says "no, I won't do it, unless I get a translator". Not all europeans are confident with their english skills.
A few years back, my argument wasn't as big as it is now. Obviously when korea was still THE biggest power in SC2, with like the Top 50+ being entirely korean, an international title wasn't as highly rated as a GSL or SSL. But now it is different. Serral is the biggest candidate for being the GOAT, but Reynor and Clem still win against him (fairly "often", too). Korea is still the single strongest country, but the times where GSL Top32er would easily win a DreamHack (with no other koreans present) are over. Only a few topdogs still stand out, like Maru or TY.
But honestly: Even when GSL was at his highest mark, I still thought you need that Blizzcon title. It is the undisputed "world championship". You just can't be the GOAT without winning that.
On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote: It’s silly to say serral isn’t the goat because he has never competed in the gsl. It’s silly to say maru can’t be the goat because he can’t win outside of Korea/Asia. That being said, just going by the eye test, serral has been the most consistent out of every player for the past 3 years. Reynor and Clem are great and they do beat serral sometimes but serral has winning records lifetime against both. Serral is the goat whether people like it or not. The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
At the same timeframe Rogue got 3 world championship titles, 2 code S titles and 1 ST title(shortly before the blizzcon). But consistency(mostly in the foreign scene as Serral did win just 1 WC title) is more than winning almost half of the WC titles which were available. Yup, totally.
Rogue and Inno have the best 'spread' of good results IMO, with Rogue having fewer, but more prestigious ones. If Rogue wins any high profile tournament I think he has current GOAT in the bag. I don't feel Serral can say the same, and for Maru and Inno that tournament would have to be a world championship.
As it currently stands I think Rogue, Inno and Maru are the real contenders so far (of the players not banned ). I think Serral needs one more very big win to be in the discussion (but damn he makes me believe he can do it).
Serral's win in this case feels a little bit meh. Not because top Koreans performed depths beneath under-sub-par level (save Stats), but because Serral didn't met his biggest threats, Reynor and Clem.¨
Koreans performing how they did doesn't lower the value of the tournament win from Serral's perspective, but lack of matches against Reynor and Clem during the route to victory apparently do. From Serral fan's perspective this is pretty clear.
It has been already a while when also GSL victory's average (still by default very high) traditional esteem and value can be questioned only because Serral and Reynor aren't participating to them. The GSL's status as the best of the best tournament environment isn't that obvious if two (likely 3 in the future) Top 10 players, in which two can be easily considered Top 5 currently do not/do not want/cannot participate. Only tournaments where the best players of both worlds are present can be used as real measurement for parity. Preferably off-line.
Anyway, circumstances are what they are, and all participating players had at least roughly equal and fair opportunity to win the Finals before it started, thus circumstances, bracket luck, or perceived over- and under-performances cannot be used against the winner. And couldn't be used against him, if the winner would be someone else than Serral.
+1 premier win with global participation.
[...that odd feeling when you write like Serral-apologist in a situation where there are no real reasons for the apology. Only that partly unjustified feeling that the Winner wasn't properly tested here, even if the season grand finals was the test, just like any other Premier tournament with top players participating.]
On November 18 2020 21:24 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Rogue and Inno have the best 'spread' of good results IMO, with Rogue having fewer, but more prestigious ones. If Rogue wins any high profile tournament I think he has current GOAT in the bag. I don't feel Serral can say the same, and for Maru and Inno that tournament would have to be a world championship.
As it currently stands I think Rogue, Inno and Maru are the real contenders so far (of the players not banned ). I think Serral needs one more very big win to be in the discussion (but damn he makes me believe he can do it).
Rogue has his fewer, more prestigious on average titles and almost nothing else. A couple of semifinals and a couple of Majors wins. While it's impressive being 7-0 in Premier finals and having 3 World Championships and 2 Code S which qualifies him as COAT(Clutchest Player of All Time), when you look at the actual GOAT you should factor in the overall body of work in one's career and, compared to Maru's and Innovation's that you mentioned, Rogue's just not there.
Other than having more titles than Rogue, Maru(9-3) has an endless list of semifinals, Inno(10-4) has almost as many semifinals/third/fourth places as Maru and won a ton of Majors.
On November 18 2020 09:12 Itsxjoeyy wrote: It’s silly to say serral isn’t the goat because he has never competed in the gsl. It’s silly to say maru can’t be the goat because he can’t win outside of Korea/Asia. That being said, just going by the eye test, serral has been the most consistent out of every player for the past 3 years. Reynor and Clem are great and they do beat serral sometimes but serral has winning records lifetime against both. Serral is the goat whether people like it or not. The consistency he has shown makes him the goat. Serral routinely beats all the best players from the gsl anyway, and when a weekender is coming, you don’t think Koreans aren’t “preparing” to play serral just as they would any player in the gsl?
At the same timeframe Rogue got 3 world championship titles, 2 code S titles and 1 ST title(shortly before the blizzcon). But consistency(mostly in the foreign scene as Serral did win just 1 WC title) is more than winning almost half of the WC titles which were available. Yup, totally.
If you were angry when I said that you have faith in sOs I should be furious now. Rogue won ONE World Championship since Serral's ascension; Serral was there, sure, when Rogue won the other two but he just wasn't a global championship contender(he indeed reached ro4 at Katowice 2018 and third place at WESG but he hadn't proved himself capable of winning tournament against koreans; after May, Serral just achieved another level and has not lost it yet, despite having declined from bonjwa level to arguably best player in the world to, as currently as, mere top player). If we look at the results in World Championships only after Serral's breakout, he still is the most consistent: he has 1 title, 2 ro4 and 1 ro8 compared to Rogue's 1 title, 1 ro4, 1 ro8 and 1 early exit and Dark's 1 title, 3 ro8.
Serral's superior consistency in this timeframe applied to every international tournaments, not just to WCS/DH as you are saying. Also, if one had to trust you guys it would seem Serral just won a single title! Let's exclude his 6 WCS, 2 second and 2 third places he achieved in region locked tournaments since those counts nothing as everyone knows. Considering tournaments where Serral faced koreans, he won BlizzCon, 2 GSL vs the World on korean soil(but those barely counts, right), 2 Premier tier HSC(but I guess those are fun tournaments), 2 DH season finals(but koreans were sleepy and had more lag as you teach me); as for placements in Premier tournaments against koreans, Serral counts 2 second places, 1 third place, 4 semifinals, 4 ro8. Serral also won Nation Wars basically by himself and, as Majors, a lower HSC(tournament for fun) and two StayAtHomeStoryCups(hah, FUN tournaments ONLINE!)
On November 18 2020 21:43 UnLarva wrote: Serral's win in this case feels a little bit meh. Not because top Koreans performed depths beneath under-sub-par level (save Stats), but because Serral didn't met his biggest threats, Reynor and Clem.¨
Koreans performing how they did doesn't lower the value of the tournament win from Serral's perspective, but lack of matches against Reynor and Clem during the route to victory apparently do. From Serral fan's perspective this is pretty clear.
It has been already a while when also GSL victory's average (still by default very high) traditional esteem and value can be questioned only because Serral and Reynor aren't participating to them. The GSL's status as the best of the best tournament environment isn't that obvious if two (likely 3 in the future) Top 10 players, in which two can be easily considered Top 5 currently do not/do not want/cannot participate. Only tournaments where the best players of both worlds are present can be used as real measurement for parity. Preferably off-line.
Anyway, circumstances are what they are, and all participating players had at least roughly equal and fair opportunity to win the Finals before it started, thus circumstances, bracket luck, or perceived over- and under-performances cannot be used against the winner. And couldn't be used against him, if the winner would be someone else than Serral.
+1 premier win with global participation.
[...that odd feeling when you write like Serral-apologist in a situation where there are no real reasons for the apology. Only that partly unjustified feeling that the Winner wasn't properly tested here, even if the season grand finals was the test, just like any other Premier tournament with top players participating.]
Meh.
I agree, this last victory of Serral feels like one of the most underwhelming he has ever achieved; to us fan, at least. I am sure he enjoyed it as it broke his biggest non winning streak since he started accumulating titles.
Mvp is said to have 4 GSL's, and one of those is a GSL vs The World event, the millisecond Serral won the first of those, it became a "fun event", where people lost because they didn't care, and were saving builds for the next season of GSL Code S.
@Xain0n It's nearly always nice fresh breeze blowing against the face when reading your comments, particularly in this endless border war someway related to The Sith Lord of Pornainen and his efforts. :D
Not gonna quote now for saving space. Just noting that you managed elonquently point out the fact that if out-off-game real life background circumstances force any tournament to be online and online only, and that condition apply to all players, foreigners and Koreans all the same, then that background condition must be reduced out entirely from comparisons and calculations when evaluating relative weight of this or that tournament win. Someone not taking "Fun Tournament ONLINE!" with global top dogs participating enough seriously to perform even at expected minimum level cannot be used as an excuse to lower the worth of such happening in a situation where there doesn't exist equivalent Fun Tournaments OFFLINE at all. In the future there may be asterisk added to COVID-epoch tournaments, but not because they were ONLINE 'fun', but because they were ONLY fun.
I have said this before and I will continue saying it: Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where: 1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline; 2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc. 3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS. That metric should apply to Serral too.
On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote: I have said this before and I will continue saying it: Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where: 1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline; 2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc. 3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS. That metric should apply to Serral too.
You've some valid points there, and you've also right to continue to never consider Serral as GOAT. However:
in those 10 years of SC2, Serral has been around and in the scene. First as the child, then as a teen, and he peaked with:
1) Against nearly inpenetrable Korean wall of experienced KeSPA veterans (which then shouldn't be even possible scenario), in decline or not. 2) It wasn't Serral's wrong-doing that these legendary figures decided to retire (or get ban). With Serral there is emerging/emerged new generation of all-time greats, some of them* possible becoming even more dominant over the scene than Serral ever will. Maybe someone of those retired KeSPAvets could also reactivate their SC2 careers near the/at the top, and continue their resumes. 3) That ONE FUKING EXPANSION will be very likely THE LAST FUKING EXPANSION, that one, that will be played in year 2300 by University merited general A.I.s for casual fun and for making lectures on the Ancient history of human computer gaming: The Case study of early history of RTS. There will be likely a lot of time in the future when 8 years will be only a minor part of the entire history of the game, and who says Serral and Innovation won't be still hanging there among the top when they are in their 50s.
No matter what, even within one expansion and dramatically declined level of global SC2, it will be highly likely that we won't see Serral-like dominance/consistency of 3+ years (and counting) in the game anytime soon. If ever.
Add: * Reynor and Clem have been lately making Serral look like a potential candidate of perpetual future Kong of the next decade.
On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote: I have said this before and I will continue saying it: Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where: 1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline; 2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc. 3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS. That metric should apply to Serral too.
I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat.
But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign.
On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote: I have said this before and I will continue saying it: Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where: 1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline; 2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc. 3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS. That metric should apply to Serral too.
Hoo boy, this thread is going places but I guess there's not much else sc2-related to talk about these days.
Serral basically peaked shortly after he went full-time as a pro, though I guess you can speculate how seriously he took the game prior to that. I don't care enough to go into the minutiae of your post as you're entitled to your opinion (though I think you're horribly wrong), but this whole he didn't dominate HoTS as a Westerner going to school as a teenager and playing a video game in his spare time is ridiculous. Europe and America have never had anything resembling the ecosystem of teamhouses or the social acceptance of progaming that Korea has always maintained.
On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote: I have said this before and I will continue saying it: Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where: 1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline; 2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc. 3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS. That metric should apply to Serral too.
I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat.
But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign.
SC2 in essence will never have a GOAT IMO for everything explained in your last paragraph, no one in the history of the game, for health reasons (Mvp, Rain, Maru now), or other reasons (he-who-must-not-be named, opposite of Death) will ever be around long enough to achieve true goat status, or 'be a god', even flash himself failed that category. Players who are here from the beginning are gone, and the golden years of sc2 (2013-2015 IMO) didn't include some of the peak players now (Serral, Reynor Clem) in their Hall of Fame.
On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote: I have said this before and I will continue saying it: Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where: 1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline; 2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc. 3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS. That metric should apply to Serral too.
I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat.
But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign.
That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements.
When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran.
In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg.
On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote: I have said this before and I will continue saying it: Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where: 1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline; 2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc. 3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS. That metric should apply to Serral too.
I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat.
But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign.
That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements.
When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran.
In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg.
Rogues IEM Super Tournament Blizzcon IEM streak was right before/during Serrals ascent.... Dark was in the wesg finals and had Maru beat in macro games and lost to 2 rax. Scarlett won a smaller IEM and had her best GSL performance to date. Hell that is around the time noregret qualified for code s. Dark and Rogue both hit Maru in code s bracket stages and put up the best fights against him of anyone. Zerg was already strong.
On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote: I have said this before and I will continue saying it: Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where: 1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline; 2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc. 3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS. That metric should apply to Serral too.
I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat.
But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign.
That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements.
When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran.
In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg.
Rogues IEM Super Tournament Blizzcon IEM streak was right before/during Serrals ascent.... Dark was in the wesg finals and had Maru beat in macro games and lost to 2 rax. Scarlett won a smaller IEM and had her best GSL performance to date. Hell that is around the time noregret qualified for code s. Dark and Rogue both hit Maru in code s bracket stages and put up the best fights against him of anyone. Zerg was already strong.
Not really, the things you mentioned happened before Serral's actual ascension. In early 2018, Serral had already shown he could compete with top koreans but couldn't ultimately vanquish them; Serral had also won his first WCS but he was losing quite decisively in international tournaments(he was definitely inferior to Dark and Rogue in that phase).
Something happened after Finland's defeat in Nation Wars. When Serral returned to competition, under a new patch, he started winning and didn't stop until Katowice 2019; in the same timeframe, no other Zerg player won a single title.
On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote: I have said this before and I will continue saying it: Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where: 1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline; 2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc. 3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS. That metric should apply to Serral too.
I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat.
But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign.
That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements.
When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran.
In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg.
Rogues IEM Super Tournament Blizzcon IEM streak was right before/during Serrals ascent.... Dark was in the wesg finals and had Maru beat in macro games and lost to 2 rax. Scarlett won a smaller IEM and had her best GSL performance to date. Hell that is around the time noregret qualified for code s. Dark and Rogue both hit Maru in code s bracket stages and put up the best fights against him of anyone. Zerg was already strong.
He is in complete denial. Zerg was even strong during late 2017 blizzcon with the hydra buff (the one Elazer had a very strong performance in and that Rogue won). Zerg has dominated from 2017 to 2020, not just Serral, and what changed throughout the years is how much dominant they were rather than if they were.
On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote: I have said this before and I will continue saying it: Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where: 1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline; 2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc. 3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS. That metric should apply to Serral too.
I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat.
But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign.
That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements.
When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran.
In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg.
Rogues IEM Super Tournament Blizzcon IEM streak was right before/during Serrals ascent.... Dark was in the wesg finals and had Maru beat in macro games and lost to 2 rax. Scarlett won a smaller IEM and had her best GSL performance to date. Hell that is around the time noregret qualified for code s. Dark and Rogue both hit Maru in code s bracket stages and put up the best fights against him of anyone. Zerg was already strong.
Not really, the things you mentioned happened before Serral's actual ascension. In early 2018, Serral had already shown he could compete with top koreans but couldn't ultimately vanquish them; Serral had also won his first WCS but he was losing quite decisively in international tournaments(he was definitely inferior to Dark and Rogue in that phase).
Something happened after Finland's defeat in Nation Wars. When Serral returned to competition, under a new patch, he started winning and didn't stop until Katowice 2019; in the same timeframe, no other Zerg player won a single title.
We've argued about the timing of Serrals ascent before and I know we'll never agree on that even though his IEM performance that year is so clearly just as good as anything he's done besides Blizzcon 2018 but ultimately it doesn't matter for this discussion. Whether those Rogue, Scarlett, and Dark results were before or after Serral got good they still happened and they very clearly show that Zerg was not in a weak spot. There were very few significant balance changes between those results and the timeframe you are talking about. They were not as OP as 2019 but it was still the strongest race and underperforming slightly in a few GSLs doesn't change that. Rogue would have bopped Stats in Blizzcon if Serral wasn't there to do it. They would have won 2/3 of the highest paying events of the year and been a failed 2 rax defense away from 3/3.
For WCS Serral was constantly eliminating Zergs like Scarlett, Lambo, and Reynor during that year. I don't believe they would have went 4/4 but they would have still won a WCS or two in a Serral-less world.
On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote: I have said this before and I will continue saying it: Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where: 1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline; 2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc. 3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS. That metric should apply to Serral too.
I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat.
But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign.
That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements.
When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran.
In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg.
Rogues IEM Super Tournament Blizzcon IEM streak was right before/during Serrals ascent.... Dark was in the wesg finals and had Maru beat in macro games and lost to 2 rax. Scarlett won a smaller IEM and had her best GSL performance to date. Hell that is around the time noregret qualified for code s. Dark and Rogue both hit Maru in code s bracket stages and put up the best fights against him of anyone. Zerg was already strong.
Not really, the things you mentioned happened before Serral's actual ascension. In early 2018, Serral had already shown he could compete with top koreans but couldn't ultimately vanquish them; Serral had also won his first WCS but he was losing quite decisively in international tournaments(he was definitely inferior to Dark and Rogue in that phase).
Something happened after Finland's defeat in Nation Wars. When Serral returned to competition, under a new patch, he started winning and didn't stop until Katowice 2019; in the same timeframe, no other Zerg player won a single title.
We've argued about the timing of Serrals ascent before and I know we'll never agree on that even though his IEM performance that year is so clearly just as good as anything he's done besides Blizzcon 2018 but ultimately it doesn't matter for this discussion. Whether those Rogue, Scarlett, and Dark results were before or after Serral got good they still happened and they very clearly show that Zerg was not in a weak spot. There were very few significant balance changes between those results and the timeframe you are talking about. They were not as OP as 2019 but it was still the strongest race and underperforming slightly in a few GSLs doesn't change that. Rogue would have bopped Stats in Blizzcon if Serral wasn't there to do it. They would have won 2/3 of the highest paying events of the year and been a failed 2 rax defense away from 3/3.
For WCS Serral was constantly eliminating Zergs like Scarlett, Lambo, and Reynor during that year. I don't believe they would have went 4/4 but they would have still won a WCS or two in a Serral-less world.
Despite his good placements in early 2018, Serral was not up there. He got 3-0d by Classic before Rogue dismantled him, 3-0d by Maru before Dark almost beat him and didn't win a single map against soO; that's not up to par with anything that came afterwards.
I did not say Zerg was weak, I actually think balance was good with Protoss maybe a little stronger and Terran probably slightly weaker(but Maru and Serral repeatedly stopped Protoss from winning titles). I am saying that Serral was the best player and way better than any other Zerg, who coincidentally and magically didn't win while he was at his apex, and that thinking that Serral dominated because his race was strong is absolutely ridicolous.
It's true that a Zerg would have won WCS Montreal anyway(it shouldn't shock anyone, really) but Dark wouldn't have been able to stop Stats at GSL vs the World and in a meta in which Neeb could stomp Rogue and Stats was the best in PvZ, I doubt that Rogue's bo7 prowess would have allowed him to crack the shield of Aiur.
On November 19 2020 01:39 AzAlexZ wrote: I have said this before and I will continue saying it: Serral should NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER be considered as GOAT GOAT = greatest of All time. In case none of you realized Serral was never great in WOL or HOTS He may be the greatest in LOTV but hardly 'OF ALL TIME'.
In 10 years of sc2, Serral peaked in a time where: 1) KeSPA dissolved and the Korean scene was in decline; 2) Many all-time greats have already retired or left the scene like Rain, Mvp, MC, MKP, (Life) etc. 3) 2 expansions were already gone aka, he was a championship player in ONE FUKING EXPANSION
so no Serral will, and should never qualify as a GOAT player. his consistency will never be as impressive as someone like Innovation who played for 8 years now and remains a championship contender every tournament he goes into, whereas Serral only has that result for 3 years in one expansion with no ongoing game-changing shifts like a different economic system or new units, especially since Serral was a mediocre player in HOTS and no one knew this kid in WOL.
sOs is a multi-world champion with other wins under his belt and yet no one considers him a GOAT, most people just consider him as one of the best in HOTS. That metric should apply to Serral too.
I agree with everything, but would like to add the racial aspect as well. Serral has dominated at a time when zerg has overperformed compared to the other races. He is the best zerg or one of the best zergs, and as such the most difficult or one of the most difficult players to beat.
But as for the greatest of all time, that should also be reserved for a player who is no mere human, but a god, who plays "the so-called "4th race", capable of beating the other races despite an unfavorable meta. Something like what Boxer did back in the day, or Bisu? Serral has enjoyed an extremely favorable meta throughout his reign.
That's another clichè, a false one; it's probably the fourth or fifth time I have to reply to similar statements.
When Serral rose to prominence, the other Zerg players weren't winning tournaments and weren't even reaching finals(except for Reynor once, who Serral himself defeated). During that whole patch, Serral reigned alone: both Code S finals had no Zerg in it and Serral faced Protoss players four times to win that many titles; the situation did not change at HSC XVIII, played under a new patch, where Zerg players failed horrendously and Serral took first place in a ro6 filled with Terran.
In 2019, after the nerfs to Warp Prism and Chargelots and Zerg players realizing once more how to abuse Broodlord Infestor, the meta became very favourable to Zerg and this may have played a role in Serral's further success(not as much as other Zerg's, at least). However, Serral owes nothing to racial advantage since his most luminous, and dominant to unprecendent extents, part of his career took place in a meta that didn't especially favor Zerg.
Rogues IEM Super Tournament Blizzcon IEM streak was right before/during Serrals ascent.... Dark was in the wesg finals and had Maru beat in macro games and lost to 2 rax. Scarlett won a smaller IEM and had her best GSL performance to date. Hell that is around the time noregret qualified for code s. Dark and Rogue both hit Maru in code s bracket stages and put up the best fights against him of anyone. Zerg was already strong.
He is in complete denial. Zerg was even strong during late 2017 blizzcon with the hydra buff (the one Elazer had a very strong performance in and that Rogue won). Zerg has dominated from 2017 to 2020, not just Serral, and what changed throughout the years is how much dominant they were rather than if they were.
Nah after OL patch early in 2018 only Serral won anything for Zerg, 2019 sure.
Serral is easily the most reliable weekend Euro tournament player. Considering he typically only plays Koreans when they are jetlagged or playing at crazy hours on high ping, I'm not sure we really know how he stacks up against the GOAT contenders. (When he had to travel to Korea for blizzcon last year, he had a top-4 finish. Solid, but considering how strong Zerg was I'm not sure it's that impressive.)
Why do people knock Serral for peaking in a "weak era" but don't give Maru that same energy? He peaked during this same time frame with his 4 GSLs. Or are we going to pretend that KeSPA dissolving and all-time great Korean players retiring had nothing to do with that because we like Maru?
On November 19 2020 13:45 kaykoose wrote: Why do people knock Serral for peaking in a "weak era" but don't give Maru that same energy? He peaked during this same time frame with his 4 GSLs. Or are we going to pretend that KeSPA dissolving and all-time great Korean players retiring had nothing to do with that because we like Maru?
Great point to note! Serral must be amazing player as almost everything becomes weak when he is taking part to it, moreso if he is also successful. But it doesn't end here! Following water-tight logic, also everything he isn't participating becomes weak. Yet, there are people who accuse Serral for not weakening already weak-ass GSL Code S tourneys with his participation. Only way to save the high esteem of GSL is not to allow Serral to participate. After all he has already ruined the GSL vs The World. HSC is in complete ruins. Blizzcon's credibility and level dropped alarmingly after he competed in it, etc. IEM is still largely intact regardless of Serral's repeated attempts to lower it's standard play quality too. There was also that WESG, weak ass tourney with big pot of money, not much else.
Next two tournaments will give Serral a chance to weaken ASUS ROG and TSL too, both of them are still pretty much un-weakened by him, because his uncharacteristically unimpactful weakening attempts in previous iterations of them.
So, GSL is still relatively save for awhile as there are other things to make weak for Serral. Last stronghold against this all succumbing weakness will be GSL, in which multiple guys will hold multiple clean intact Serralless Code-S Season trophies, knowing that foul touch of Serral has not yet contaminated their value.
I don't know what Serral gonna do with that oncoming Last Chance tournament. If he will just hibernate in his cozy home hatchery at Pornainen, Finland, during the tournament for his normal, yearly winter absence, I predict that global SC2 attendance figures will drop at least some 20%, probably more, only because of lack of Serral's tournament weakening participation. By the logic followed with GSL Code-S, his potential absence would make the Final Chance the most strongest and prestigious tournament with global participation since Katowise 2020 where Serral ultimately failed in his persistent attempts to weaken the scene, and the competition, and the game.
Such awesome play from Serral as usual, while nobody permanently stays in peak form besides the almighty Flash, I think it's safe to say that the Finish Phenom is in pretty strong form lately.
On November 19 2020 14:25 jpg06051992 wrote: Such awesome play from Serral as usual, while nobody permanently stays in peak form besides the almighty Flash, I think it's safe to say that the Finish Phenom is in pretty strong form lately.
Flash probably would have never happened in a game where they keep nerfing the race that does best.
A bonjwa in Starcraft2 has been nearly impossible for years because if a player could win everything, you could be sure nerfs were coming.
On November 19 2020 11:14 tskarzyn wrote: Serral is easily the most reliable weekend Euro tournament player. Considering he typically only plays Koreans when they are jetlagged or playing at crazy hours on high ping, I'm not sure we really know how he stacks up against the GOAT contenders. (When he had to travel to Korea for blizzcon last year, he had a top-4 finish. Solid, but considering how strong Zerg was I'm not sure it's that impressive.)
Serral won GSL vs. the World in Korea and he won BlizzCon, where the jetlag from Finland to US should be nearly the same as from South Korea...
On November 19 2020 13:45 kaykoose wrote: Why do people knock Serral for peaking in a "weak era" but don't give Maru that same energy? He peaked during this same time frame with his 4 GSLs. Or are we going to pretend that KeSPA dissolving and all-time great Korean players retiring had nothing to do with that because we like Maru?
Because he won OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, was the best proleague player in 2016, and spent large chunks of time as the best Terran well before 2018.
On November 19 2020 13:45 kaykoose wrote: Why do people knock Serral for peaking in a "weak era" but don't give Maru that same energy? He peaked during this same time frame with his 4 GSLs. Or are we going to pretend that KeSPA dissolving and all-time great Korean players retiring had nothing to do with that because we like Maru?
Because he won OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, was the best proleague player in 2016, and spent large chunks of time as the best Terran well before 2018.
Competed in 10+ tournaments yearly, and won 2, before KESPA disbanded, that's not really as impressive as maru 2018+.
Innovation and !Death far out performed him, it's not even close.
You guys are cute when you are arguing about who is the Goat.
The fact of the matter is, like it or not, the competitive level is at its lowest since early WoL. There are almost no more professional teams, no Proleague. Hell, even GSL is now a round of 24 because they didnt have enough talents to fill 32 spots.
Most people arguing between Maru or Serrals must be brand new sc2 fans who where never there during peak sc2, when we had PL, SSL, GSL etc.
Anyonw with decent knowledge would know that while the players individual skills might be higher nowadays, the level of competition is so poor that any win is greatly diminished.
There is a reason why for like the first 8 years of sc2, only 2 foreigners could compete with koreans (inconsistently): Naniwa and Stephano.
The fact that we now have parity and that Serral, Reynor, Clem, Neeb etc. are all capable of consistently beating great koreans speaks volume about how weak the level of competition is right now.
Its just silly to try to find a GOAT when the game is on life support.
On November 19 2020 13:45 kaykoose wrote: Why do people knock Serral for peaking in a "weak era" but don't give Maru that same energy? He peaked during this same time frame with his 4 GSLs. Or are we going to pretend that KeSPA dissolving and all-time great Korean players retiring had nothing to do with that because we like Maru?
you are right, both achievements (like maru 4 gsls_ and serrals achievements are greatly diminished.
However, Maru was often considered as the best terran in the world multiple tiems before even winning GSL. Now do I believe he is the GOAT. Not really, but he definitly has more of a shot than Serral, or TY or anyone who started peaking after PL disbanded and sc2 basically died.
On November 19 2020 13:45 kaykoose wrote: Why do people knock Serral for peaking in a "weak era" but don't give Maru that same energy? He peaked during this same time frame with his 4 GSLs. Or are we going to pretend that KeSPA dissolving and all-time great Korean players retiring had nothing to do with that because we like Maru?
Because he won OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, was the best proleague player in 2016, and spent large chunks of time as the best Terran well before 2018.
Competed in 10+ tournaments yearly, and won 2, before KESPA disbanded, that's not really as impressive as maru 2018+.
Innovation and !Death far out performed him, it's not even close.
He wasn't competing in 10+ individual tournaments yearly. That's simply false. Go look at his results page. When you exclude qualifiers, team tournaments, and online events there are very few years that he actually played in 10 unique events. This is because he exclusively played in Korean leagues with the occasional IEM or global championship. He wasn't signing up for everything like a lot of pros likely because of either how young he was and probably still doing school work or he just hates traveling. Hard to say without someone specifically asking him.
I definitely agree that Life and Inno had a better resume than Maru before 2018. Life cheated though and Inno has done a whole lot of nothing since and Maru has now surpassed both.
And I like how you ignore his proleague results when that was the single most important event for Korean players back then. I guarantee the vast majority of the top Kespa pros made more from their proleague salaries than from tournament winnings from 2013-2016.
On November 19 2020 13:45 kaykoose wrote: Why do people knock Serral for peaking in a "weak era" but don't give Maru that same energy? He peaked during this same time frame with his 4 GSLs. Or are we going to pretend that KeSPA dissolving and all-time great Korean players retiring had nothing to do with that because we like Maru?
Because he won OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, was the best proleague player in 2016, and spent large chunks of time as the best Terran well before 2018.
Competed in 10+ tournaments yearly, and won 2, before KESPA disbanded, that's not really as impressive as maru 2018+.
Innovation and !Death far out performed him, it's not even close.
He wasn't competing in 10+ individual tournaments yearly. That's simply false. Go look at his results page. When you exclude qualifiers, team tournaments, and online events there are very few years that he actually played in 10 unique events. This is because he exclusively played in Korean leagues with the occasional IEM or global championship. He wasn't signing up for everything like a lot of pros likely because of either how young he was and probably still doing school work or he just hates traveling. Hard to say without someone specifically asking him.
I definitely agree that Life and Inno had a better resume than Maru before 2018. Life cheated though and Inno has done a whole lot of nothing since and Maru has now surpassed both.
And I like how you ignore his proleague results when that was the single most important event for Korean players back then. I guarantee the vast majority of the top Kespa pros made more from their proleague salaries than from tournament winnings from 2013-2016.
Exactly. A lot of new people here dont think PL was huge because it was a team competition or whatever, but it was arguably more prestigious than GSL and evn Blizzcon. My wife is korean and while she never heard of GSL ever when she lived in SK for 25 years, she heard a lot about Proleague, and it was always broadcasted on television. Performances in PL are way more impressive than winning a WCS NA or EU
Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
On November 19 2020 13:45 kaykoose wrote: Why do people knock Serral for peaking in a "weak era" but don't give Maru that same energy? He peaked during this same time frame with his 4 GSLs. Or are we going to pretend that KeSPA dissolving and all-time great Korean players retiring had nothing to do with that because we like Maru?
Because he won OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, was the best proleague player in 2016, and spent large chunks of time as the best Terran well before 2018.
Competed in 10+ tournaments yearly, and won 2, before KESPA disbanded, that's not really as impressive as maru 2018+.
Innovation and !Death far out performed him, it's not even close.
He wasn't competing in 10+ individual tournaments yearly. That's simply false. Go look at his results page. When you exclude qualifiers, team tournaments, and online events there are very few years that he actually played in 10 unique events. This is because he exclusively played in Korean leagues with the occasional IEM or global championship. He wasn't signing up for everything like a lot of pros likely because of either how young he was and probably still doing school work or he just hates traveling. Hard to say without someone specifically asking him.
I definitely agree that Life and Inno had a better resume than Maru before 2018. Life cheated though and Inno has done a whole lot of nothing since and Maru has now surpassed both.
And I like how you ignore his proleague results when that was the single most important event for Korean players back then. I guarantee the vast majority of the top Kespa pros made more from their proleague salaries than from tournament winnings from 2013-2016.
" When you exclude qualifiers,"
You shouldn't exclude qualifiers, that's just Maru losing before getting to the tournament, he attempted to win the tournament.
Lets see 2015:
IEM Taipei (3-4 !Death) GSL S1 SSL s1 IEM IX again GSL S2 Code A (the f?) SSL S2 SSL S3 Kespa Cup 2015 GSL S3 Code S WCS Blizzcon (0-3)
That's 10
Lets see 2014:
IEM Cologne IEM WC Qualifiers (0-2 paralyze) WCS 2014 KR GSL 2014 Global Championship WCS 2014 KR s2 IEM Shenzhen IEM Toronto KESPA CUP 2014 WCS Season 3 IEM Season IX San Jose GSL Hot6ix cup
That's 11 attempts at tournaments, that you'd 100% be listing as accolades if he won.
On November 19 2020 13:45 kaykoose wrote: Why do people knock Serral for peaking in a "weak era" but don't give Maru that same energy? He peaked during this same time frame with his 4 GSLs. Or are we going to pretend that KeSPA dissolving and all-time great Korean players retiring had nothing to do with that because we like Maru?
Because he won OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, was the best proleague player in 2016, and spent large chunks of time as the best Terran well before 2018.
Competed in 10+ tournaments yearly, and won 2, before KESPA disbanded, that's not really as impressive as maru 2018+.
Innovation and !Death far out performed him, it's not even close.
He wasn't competing in 10+ individual tournaments yearly. That's simply false. Go look at his results page. When you exclude qualifiers, team tournaments, and online events there are very few years that he actually played in 10 unique events. This is because he exclusively played in Korean leagues with the occasional IEM or global championship. He wasn't signing up for everything like a lot of pros likely because of either how young he was and probably still doing school work or he just hates traveling. Hard to say without someone specifically asking him.
I definitely agree that Life and Inno had a better resume than Maru before 2018. Life cheated though and Inno has done a whole lot of nothing since and Maru has now surpassed both.
And I like how you ignore his proleague results when that was the single most important event for Korean players back then. I guarantee the vast majority of the top Kespa pros made more from their proleague salaries than from tournament winnings from 2013-2016.
" When you exclude qualifiers,"
You shouldn't exclude qualifiers, that's just Maru losing before getting to the tournament, he attempted to win the tournament.
Lets see 2015:
IEM Taipei (3-4 !Death) GSL S1 SSL s1 IEM IX again GSL S2 Code A (the f?) SSL S2 SSL S3 Kespa Cup 2015 GSL S3 Code S WCS Blizzcon (0-3)
That's 10
Lets see 2014:
IEM Cologne IEM WC Qualifiers (0-2 paralyze) WCS 2014 KR GSL 2014 Global Championship WCS 2014 KR s2 IEM Shenzhen IEM Toronto KESPA CUP 2014 WCS Season 3 IEM Season IX San Jose GSL Hot6ix cup
That's 11 attempts at tournaments, that you'd 100% be listing as accolades if he won.
yeah, if you're a guy who's used to the current scene where there's hardly any competition in the scene this might be a low tournament winrate I guess. When you consider that back then there were dozens of championship level koreans all playing at their peak it becomes a much better ratio. Life's and Inno's ratio wasn't much better if at all, especially considering they were also playing in lots of overseas tournaments.
Life and Inno of course were overall more succesful than Maru pre-2016 but not by much.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
Who makes fun of Serral when he loses, or any player, for that matter? What a strange, weak mentality you harbor. Serral is simply a victim of his own dominance in 2018 and was always bound to stumble somewhat after that year.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
It's also not that hard to look at someone's overall play and extrapolate how they'd do in different eras. Serral, Reynor and Clem could succeed in any era, just as MVP or Life or Rain could. I watched all of those players play and all had/have uncommon speed, reactions and mechanics, even for the pro scene. So sure, Serral never would have had his reign of dominance in 2018 during the Kespa era, and maybe Reynor/Clem wouldn't find their consistent and ascending success, but throw them in the Kespa training ecosystem in an alternate realty where they could have practiced 10 hours a day with a team-house and thriving tournament scene supporting them, and I'm willing to bet they'd all have been major factors. In reality though, we'll never know and this stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum where everyone's circumstances are the same.
Goat discussions in any sport are good fun and entertaining, so if someone wants to claim Rogue or Innovation over Maru, that's what people do and it's the stuff of fandom. You and like 3-4 specific posters on TL, however, are so rabidly anti-Serral that it's embarrassing and makes it hard to take your discussion seriously when you approach something with such bias. Oh, I should add that I don't personally think Serral is the Goat, but he's certainly done enough to at least be included in the discussion, and there's time left on the proverbial clock for sc2. Maybe not a ton, but it's still running.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
Who makes fun of Serral when he loses, or any player, for that matter? What a strange, weak mentality you harbor. Serral is simply a victim of his own dominance in 2018 and was always bound to stumble somewhat after that year.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
It's also not that hard to look at someone's overall play and extrapolate how they'd do in different eras. Serral, Reynor and Clem could succeed in any era, just as MVP or Life or Rain could. I watched all of those players stream and all had/have uncommon speed, reactions and mechanics, even for the pro scene. So sure, Serral never would have had his reign of dominance in 2018 during the Kespa era, and maybe Reynor/Clem wouldn't find their consistent and ascending success, but throw them in the Kespa training ecosystem in an alternate realty where they could have practiced 10 hours a day with a team-house and thriving tournament scene supporting them, and I'm willing to bet they'd all have been major factors. In reality though, we'll never know and this stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum where everyone's circumstances are the same.
Goat discussions in any sport are good fun and entertaining, so if someone wants to claim Rogue or Innovation over Maru, that's what people do and it's the stuff of fandom. You and like 3-4 specific posters on TL, however, are so rabidly anti-Serral that it's embarrassing and makes it hard to take your discussion seriously when you approach something with such bias. Oh, I should add that I don't personally think Serral is the Goat, but he's certainly done enough to at least be included in the discussion, and there's time left on the proverbial clock for sc2. Maybe not a ton, but it's still running.
Everybody who doesn't agree with them Serral fanboys on the GOATing Serral is a SErral hater. Maybe you should try to re-read some posts.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive.
The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going.
I think a Korean with Serrals record would be mentioned as a goat candidate but there is no doubt in my mind there would be way less people who think that. These discussions remind me of when people thought Taeja was the goat which in my opinion never made any sense. Sure there was a period of time where had had more first places in premiers than any other players but they were lower quality premiers and unless I'm misremembering he has still to date never won anything on the level of GSL, a world championship, or anything else with a 6 figure prize pool. Serral is similar except he actually does have a world championship but that's his only truly major tournament. Homestory cups, WCS, GSL vs the world, these online finals, are all great and are definitely not easy to win but in my opinion you'll never be GOAT with just those no matter how many you win.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
Who makes fun of Serral when he loses, or any player, for that matter? What a strange, weak mentality you harbor. Serral is simply a victim of his own dominance in 2018 and was always bound to stumble somewhat after that year.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
It's also not that hard to look at someone's overall play and extrapolate how they'd do in different eras. Serral, Reynor and Clem could succeed in any era, just as MVP or Life or Rain could. I watched all of those players stream and all had/have uncommon speed, reactions and mechanics, even for the pro scene. So sure, Serral never would have had his reign of dominance in 2018 during the Kespa era, and maybe Reynor/Clem wouldn't find their consistent and ascending success, but throw them in the Kespa training ecosystem in an alternate realty where they could have practiced 10 hours a day with a team-house and thriving tournament scene supporting them, and I'm willing to bet they'd all have been major factors. In reality though, we'll never know and this stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum where everyone's circumstances are the same.
Goat discussions in any sport are good fun and entertaining, so if someone wants to claim Rogue or Innovation over Maru, that's what people do and it's the stuff of fandom. You and like 3-4 specific posters on TL, however, are so rabidly anti-Serral that it's embarrassing and makes it hard to take your discussion seriously when you approach something with such bias. Oh, I should add that I don't personally think Serral is the Goat, but he's certainly done enough to at least be included in the discussion, and there's time left on the proverbial clock for sc2. Maybe not a ton, but it's still running.
Everybody who doesn't agree with them Serral fanboys on the GOATing Serral is a SErral hater. Maybe you should try to re-read some posts.
Nah, I'm fine with whatever viewpoints people have and some are very legitimate arguments, but the lack of respect over something like "This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses," crosses a line for me.
On November 20 2020 06:21 JJH777 wrote: I think a Korean with Serrals record would be mentioned as a goat candidate but there is no doubt in my mind there would be way less people who think that. These discussions remind me of when people thought Taeja was the goat which in my opinion never made any sense. Sure there was a period of time where had had more first places in premiers than any other players but they were lower quality premiers and unless I'm misremembering he has still to date never won anything on the level of GSL, a world championship, or anything else with a 6 figure prize pool. Serral is similar except he actually does have a world championship but that's his only truly major tournament. Homestory cups, WCS, GSL vs the world, these online finals, are all great and are definitely not easy to win but in my opinion you'll never be GOAT with just those no matter how many you win.
depends, nobody took Polt/MMA or MC that seriously when they were winning WCS NA and EU easily because these tournaments were borderline worthless because all the talent was in GSL. That is basically what Serral is doing. Winning tournaments when the competition is at its lowest ever in sc2.
Is that unfair to Serral? Well, on 1 hand, he will never be able to prove how good he is since he only became relevant when sc2 became borderline dead. On the other hand, the fact that the competition level is soooooo abysmal right now allowed him to get a shit ton of cash.
So while he will never get to be considered a GOAT by people with average knowledge of the game because he never played in a competitive era, he got rich. Not a bad trade if you ask me.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive.
The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going.
If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words).
It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest.
Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive.
The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going.
If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words).
It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest.
Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
For the record I have no doubt that you would not rate Serral as highly if he was Korean. I was just saying Taeja is similar and some people would still overrate him.
I also think it's funny that you're trying to take some type of moral high ground about being happy when players lose despite how clearly you've enjoyed some of Maru's losses.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive.
The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going.
If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words).
It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest.
Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
For the record I have no doubt that you would not rate Serral as highly if he was Korean. I was just saying Taeja is similar and some people would still overrate him.
I also think it's funny that you're trying to take some type of moral high ground about being happy when players lose despite how clearly you've enjoyed some of Maru's losses.
You would be wrong, how I rate Sc2 players has nothing to do with their nationality.
Enjoying players not winning is perfectly acceptable, expressing such enjoyment may or may not be appropriate, overtly disrespecting players and mocking them never is.
For me Serral's greatness (and him being GOAT for me) becomes also from the fact that I cannot truly imagine Global SC2 scene as a whole qualitatively or competitively stronger if assuming hypothetical scenario where Serral wasn't part of competition during the era of his own making (about one third of the age of the Game), if we also assume that other trends at background would've gone same/similar way they did/are going.
IMO, it's clear that Serral has been acting as a sort of savior of the scene, giving the heimlich thrusts for the game under slow obstruction to death. It's almost certain that foreign (particularly European) competition level wouldn't nowhere it is currently without Serral's input after he moved to full time professional. Maybe his positive impact wasn't initially happening fast or very big in its magnitude, but over the time and his successes and direct or indirect influence accumulated in way that his existence and impact likely ensured few more years for the game. Sadly, there are no ways to measure my perception in any other way than via the dramatically improved level of his biggest Nemesis. For Serral fan it is a little bit bipolaric situation when you had to feel joy for Reynor's or Clem's (as most obvious examples) successes against the Idol, because you realize that they wouldn't likely be that good now without having been under influence of Serral, him acting as an example, sparring opponent, and the focusing lens of Euro (and Global) scene.
Of course, no man can alone do a much, but from the SC2 esports' entertainment business perspective, nobody can deny that Serral has been godly, swarm-send gift for SC2 in its decline, and that overall impact is enormous. It is also positive. How much faster the "looming end" would've come without him?
Part of the GOATness of Serral for me becomes from this scene revitalizing influence. Its hard to single out other player with relatively bigger positive impact to the scene (in a place and in a flow of his time) than Serral has. Luckily it was not brief period of shiny peaking, but it continued and continued...
From viewpoint of future history whole period will be talked as "that era, and what happened inbetween Serral finishing highschool and becoming full time pro, to him starting his studies in an University". :D
Serral, the Savior of the scene. Also how does he revitalized the Korean scene? If you're talking abotu the whole scene. How did he help the NA scene exactly? or SA if that matters
Edit> you can replace some scenes with the game if it helps
On November 20 2020 18:56 deacon.frost wrote: Serral, the Savior of the scene. Also how does he revitalized the Korean scene? If you're talking abotu the whole scene. How did he help the NA scene exactly? or SA if that matters
Edit> you can replace some scenes with the game if it helps
Ultimately. If oversimplifying for clarity It goes to two scenarios (one of them is hypothetical, but still probable):
1. Decline [of scene] in Korea, Europe, NA, and everywhere else. 2. Decline [of scene] in Korea, NA, and everywhere else, but not in Europe, largely thanks to Serral.
Which scenario is better for the game and it's future?
Me, just like almost everyone else hope that Serral would play even a few token GSL Code-S tournaments before its too late.
1. For hard-boiled Korean Elitist, that would be important for slowing down Code-S's unavoidable decline in prestige, as nobody couldn't anymore make their elitist remarks against Serral because of his lack of GSL participation. 2. For hard-boiled Serral Fanboi it would be important to make Korean scene stronger again as that would help dispel systemic hypocricy over the fact that Serral has been already ragdolling top Koreans several years (yes. Those same KeSPA certified GSL veterans and their efforts that are normally used as argument against Serral, when he dispatch them out of brackets somewhere else than in GSL), and Serral as the proxy for such aim cannot be possibly considered the worst available (particularly if he brings his best Euro pals with him).
Anyhow, one thing is sure. Nobody can accuse Serral to be guilty and culprit of the decline of Korean SC2, as if taking that stance then we must consider also that the Korean group of all-time great SC2 players wasn't that strong after all if one young semi-hermit Finnish Nerd from a backwoods of Pornainen can almost single handedly ridicule the whole church hegemony without any kind team house experience (Occasional golf courses and moose hunting trips with dad and bro comes most close to that), and continue to do so over extended periods of time (including Top Korean players of his own race).
Sadly Serral didn't have opportunity to remind about the fact in this tournament due extremely bad bracket luck, more Top Korean Terrans and Zergs were on demand. But what you can do if they cannot even make to playoffs or are casually decimated by NA players and other folks going full foreigner by their very nature and home countries. Only race among Koreans that kept their flag unstained in this tournament was Protoss, thanks to lovable Stats who fought courageously and honorably, not escaping his responsibilities when facing foreign elites.
Sorry. I didn't spot the mistake, but trying to correct at least all clear typos when spotting them while walling.
And no!, this time it is not about my 'emotional investment'. I'm genuinely underwhelmed about this tournament. And concerned too, if this tournament will emerge later as a start of new phase of decay in Korean scene. It would be lose-lose.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive.
The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going.
If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words).
It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest.
Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive.
The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going.
If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words).
It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest.
Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
I don't consider Rogue a GOAT candidate even though he won many more prestigious tournaments than Serral because all of his achievements were in a weak era. Maru was already one of the best players in the Kespa era and his achievements post-Kespa made him surpass the few players that were above him. oh and I also don't think TaeJa is a GOAT candidate or even a top 10 candidate
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
Who makes fun of Serral when he loses, or any player, for that matter? What a strange, weak mentality you harbor. Serral is simply a victim of his own dominance in 2018 and was always bound to stumble somewhat after that year.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
It's also not that hard to look at someone's overall play and extrapolate how they'd do in different eras. Serral, Reynor and Clem could succeed in any era, just as MVP or Life or Rain could. I watched all of those players stream and all had/have uncommon speed, reactions and mechanics, even for the pro scene. So sure, Serral never would have had his reign of dominance in 2018 during the Kespa era, and maybe Reynor/Clem wouldn't find their consistent and ascending success, but throw them in the Kespa training ecosystem in an alternate realty where they could have practiced 10 hours a day with a team-house and thriving tournament scene supporting them, and I'm willing to bet they'd all have been major factors. In reality though, we'll never know and this stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum where everyone's circumstances are the same.
Goat discussions in any sport are good fun and entertaining, so if someone wants to claim Rogue or Innovation over Maru, that's what people do and it's the stuff of fandom. You and like 3-4 specific posters on TL, however, are so rabidly anti-Serral that it's embarrassing and makes it hard to take your discussion seriously when you approach something with such bias. Oh, I should add that I don't personally think Serral is the Goat, but he's certainly done enough to at least be included in the discussion, and there's time left on the proverbial clock for sc2. Maybe not a ton, but it's still running.
Everybody who doesn't agree with them Serral fanboys on the GOATing Serral is a SErral hater. Maybe you should try to re-read some posts.
Nah, I'm fine with whatever viewpoints people have and some are very legitimate arguments, but the lack of respect over something like "This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses," crosses a line for me.
It is what it is, I'm not the only one who makes fun of him when he loses. If you think it's unfair that he gets mocked for losing a few times- you're right, but his ridicolous fanboys provoke those reactions.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive.
The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going.
If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words).
It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest.
Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
I don't consider Rogue a GOAT candidate even though he won many more prestigious tournaments than Serral because all of his achievements were in a weak era. Maru was already one of the best players in the Kespa era and his achievements post-Kespa made him surpass the few players that were above him. oh and I also don't think TaeJa is a GOAT candidate or even a top 10 candidate
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
Who makes fun of Serral when he loses, or any player, for that matter? What a strange, weak mentality you harbor. Serral is simply a victim of his own dominance in 2018 and was always bound to stumble somewhat after that year.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
It's also not that hard to look at someone's overall play and extrapolate how they'd do in different eras. Serral, Reynor and Clem could succeed in any era, just as MVP or Life or Rain could. I watched all of those players stream and all had/have uncommon speed, reactions and mechanics, even for the pro scene. So sure, Serral never would have had his reign of dominance in 2018 during the Kespa era, and maybe Reynor/Clem wouldn't find their consistent and ascending success, but throw them in the Kespa training ecosystem in an alternate realty where they could have practiced 10 hours a day with a team-house and thriving tournament scene supporting them, and I'm willing to bet they'd all have been major factors. In reality though, we'll never know and this stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum where everyone's circumstances are the same.
Goat discussions in any sport are good fun and entertaining, so if someone wants to claim Rogue or Innovation over Maru, that's what people do and it's the stuff of fandom. You and like 3-4 specific posters on TL, however, are so rabidly anti-Serral that it's embarrassing and makes it hard to take your discussion seriously when you approach something with such bias. Oh, I should add that I don't personally think Serral is the Goat, but he's certainly done enough to at least be included in the discussion, and there's time left on the proverbial clock for sc2. Maybe not a ton, but it's still running.
Everybody who doesn't agree with them Serral fanboys on the GOATing Serral is a SErral hater. Maybe you should try to re-read some posts.
Nah, I'm fine with whatever viewpoints people have and some are very legitimate arguments, but the lack of respect over something like "This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses," crosses a line for me.
It is what it is, I'm not the only one who makes fun of him when he loses. If you think it's unfair that he gets mocked for losing a few times- you're right, but his ridicolous fanboys provoke those reactions.
You said that you didn't understand how anyone could consider Serral a GOAT contender, then you stated that a korean as accomplished as Serral results wouldn't have been mentioned in any GOAT discussion; that's false, just look at TaeJa. How much you and your extremely GSL centric criteria rate Serral or TaeJa is not the point here.
Coming to those criteria, you then say that Maru had "very few players" ahead of him after the KeSpa era? You are stating that a player who had won TWO premier tournaments, reached a single second place , five semifinals and had a good proleague record(minus his best year) by the end of 2015 was already in contention for being GOAT? That simply can't be true, which means that Maru's accomplishments during a "weak era" are substantial in this claim(and your countless posts of praise confirm that).
Serral's successes evidently made your korean elitists livers explode so that you express this frustration by exposing your lack of sport and openly mocking the player who has known defeat the least in modern times in the rare instances in which he actually loses. Korean Sc2 does not deserve its seemingly unavoidable decline yet to come but you sore losers surely deserve to bear witness to it.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive.
The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going.
If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words).
It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest.
Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
I don't consider Rogue a GOAT candidate even though he won many more prestigious tournaments than Serral because all of his achievements were in a weak era. Maru was already one of the best players in the Kespa era and his achievements post-Kespa made him surpass the few players that were above him. oh and I also don't think TaeJa is a GOAT candidate or even a top 10 candidate
On November 20 2020 08:07 Rubicant1 wrote:
On November 20 2020 05:44 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 20 2020 05:30 Rubicant1 wrote:
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
Who makes fun of Serral when he loses, or any player, for that matter? What a strange, weak mentality you harbor. Serral is simply a victim of his own dominance in 2018 and was always bound to stumble somewhat after that year.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
It's also not that hard to look at someone's overall play and extrapolate how they'd do in different eras. Serral, Reynor and Clem could succeed in any era, just as MVP or Life or Rain could. I watched all of those players stream and all had/have uncommon speed, reactions and mechanics, even for the pro scene. So sure, Serral never would have had his reign of dominance in 2018 during the Kespa era, and maybe Reynor/Clem wouldn't find their consistent and ascending success, but throw them in the Kespa training ecosystem in an alternate realty where they could have practiced 10 hours a day with a team-house and thriving tournament scene supporting them, and I'm willing to bet they'd all have been major factors. In reality though, we'll never know and this stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum where everyone's circumstances are the same.
Goat discussions in any sport are good fun and entertaining, so if someone wants to claim Rogue or Innovation over Maru, that's what people do and it's the stuff of fandom. You and like 3-4 specific posters on TL, however, are so rabidly anti-Serral that it's embarrassing and makes it hard to take your discussion seriously when you approach something with such bias. Oh, I should add that I don't personally think Serral is the Goat, but he's certainly done enough to at least be included in the discussion, and there's time left on the proverbial clock for sc2. Maybe not a ton, but it's still running.
Everybody who doesn't agree with them Serral fanboys on the GOATing Serral is a SErral hater. Maybe you should try to re-read some posts.
Nah, I'm fine with whatever viewpoints people have and some are very legitimate arguments, but the lack of respect over something like "This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses," crosses a line for me.
It is what it is, I'm not the only one who makes fun of him when he loses. If you think it's unfair that he gets mocked for losing a few times- you're right, but his ridicolous fanboys provoke those reactions.
You said that you didn't understand how anyone could consider Serral a GOAT contender, then you stated that a korean as accomplished as Serral results wouldn't have been mentioned in any GOAT discussion; that's false, just look at TaeJa. How much you and your extremely GSL centric criteria rate Serral or TaeJa is not the point here.
Coming to those criteria, you then say that Maru had "very few players" ahead of him after the KeSpa era? You are stating that a player who had won TWO premier tournaments, reached a single second place , five semifinals and had a good proleague record(minus his best year) by the end of 2015 was already in contention for being GOAT? That simply can't be true, which means that Maru's accomplishments during a "weak era" are substantial in this claim(and your countless posts of praise confirm that).
Serral's successes evidently made your korean elitists livers explode so that you express this frustration by exposing your lack of sport and openly mocking the player who has known defeat the least in modern times in the rare instances in which he actually loses. Korean Sc2 does not deserve its seemingly unavoidable decline yet to come but you sore losers surely deserve to bear witness to it.
If Maru didn't have any results before 2018 he wouldn't be a contender for GOAT. that's all I have to say, I will not respond to anything else from your ridicolous biased walls of texts.
Nah, I'm fine with whatever viewpoints people have and some are very legitimate arguments, but the lack of respect over something like "This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses," crosses a line for me. [/QUOTE] It is what it is, I'm not the only one who makes fun of him when he loses. If you think it's unfair that he gets mocked for losing a few times- you're right, but his ridicolous fanboys provoke those reactions. [/QUOTE]
Starcraft 2 community, ladies and gentlemen. If you're going to double down on this, that's your prerogative, this kind of thing seems like poison to me regardless of any player you applied it to. But if we're going down that path, I guess it makes it easier to evaluate comments with that kind of bias behind it.
serral in general plays well against all opponents, from eu na to koreans. reynor is arguably his kryptonite but reynor and clem, still need some work to consistently beat koreans.
so depends on how u define best. i think serral is the best since he can wins all players from time to time.
well, maybe he need a revenge against cure's new strategy. window mine op.
People who say u cant consider Serral beeing GOAT cus of diference of competitiveness between today and the scene of years ago are simply blind to the level of skill that the top players have today compared to the skill they had in 2012-2015. You can see it through Maru and Serral, on how their play evolved.
Even the game in itself has evolved, become faster, with more builds - requiring a much higher knowledge to read it and respond correctly.
And it makes all the sense that players like Serral, Clem and Reynor are now the top players. They are on the right age of beeing able to grow up inside the game, so now they reach the "mature" age of knowledge and skill.
The MvPs, Nesteas, Stephanos and MC grew up in a different (although similar) game, Broodwar. They were the best of their time, but didnt have the chance to compete against players grew up inside the game.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive.
The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going.
If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words).
It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest.
Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
For the record I have no doubt that you would not rate Serral as highly if he was Korean. I was just saying Taeja is similar and some people would still overrate him.
I also think it's funny that you're trying to take some type of moral high ground about being happy when players lose despite how clearly you've enjoyed some of Maru's losses.
Taeja is pretty underrated IMO, kind of how Serral is in some quarters, namely the lack of those GSLs.
From the actual level of play he was showing in his peak years and results against the same players in every competition but GSL, Taeja was a better player than some give him credit for these days.
Even if they were mere fleeting summers Taeja did have periods where he was probably the best player in the world, not many can have that on their resume.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive.
The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going.
If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words).
It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest.
Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
For the record I have no doubt that you would not rate Serral as highly if he was Korean. I was just saying Taeja is similar and some people would still overrate him.
I also think it's funny that you're trying to take some type of moral high ground about being happy when players lose despite how clearly you've enjoyed some of Maru's losses.
Taeja is pretty underrated IMO, kind of how Serral is in some quarters, namely the lack of those GSLs.
From the actual level of play he was showing in his peak years and results against the same players in every competition but GSL, Taeja was a better player than some give him credit for these days.
Even if they were mere fleeting summers Taeja did have periods where he was probably the best player in the world, not many can have that on their resume.
While I love summer Taeja and clapping, he sadly never delivered in the big tourneys. IIRC he didn't even win the WCS NA. Funny thing is, that Taeja got some nice RO4(Code S, Blizzcon), but it's ignored the same way the Maru's are, at least people are consistent in this across all Koreans.
We calleth you, oh great Nakajin, maker of surveys and contest. Make thy new GOAT discussion for we, the people, are desperately in need!
On November 20 2020 18:56 deacon.frost wrote: Serral, the Savior of the scene. Also how does he revitalized the Korean scene? If you're talking abotu the whole scene. How did he help the NA scene exactly? or SA if that matters
Edit> you can replace some scenes with the game if it helps
I don't have the numbers to back this up but I'm pretty sure viewership in all regions have gone up in 2018 which is largely Serral's fault
On November 23 2020 22:53 Harris1st wrote: We calleth you, oh great Nakajin, maker of surveys and contest. Make thy new GOAT discussion for we, the people, are desperately in need!
On November 20 2020 18:56 deacon.frost wrote: Serral, the Savior of the scene. Also how does he revitalized the Korean scene? If you're talking abotu the whole scene. How did he help the NA scene exactly? or SA if that matters
Edit> you can replace some scenes with the game if it helps
I don't have the numbers to back this up but I'm pretty sure viewership in all regions have gone up in 2018 which is largely Serral's fault
I don\t have the numbers to back this up, but I'm pretty sure the viewership in Korea was increased by the phenomen named Maru. It's your feeling vs mine feeling. (also not sure if the Korean numbers even got higher, but imma rolling with this feeling battles)
Edit> Actually, the first reported increase in the viewership in 2018 is from March, which is not when Serral was in his prime powah because that's when he got his ass kicked at WESG by, uh, Maru
It actually may be connected to the fact, that in 2018 it was the 20-year anniversary of SC and Blizzard was actually promoting SC across the boards.
Edit 2> again, as i mentioned earlier, the biggest viewership are getting FvK, so some increase was thanks to Serral, but saying Serral saved all the regions, increased viewership across all the regions while Blizzard was promoting SC content is somewhat funny.
On November 23 2020 22:53 Harris1st wrote: We calleth you, oh great Nakajin, maker of surveys and contest. Make thy new GOAT discussion for we, the people, are desperately in need!
On November 20 2020 18:56 deacon.frost wrote: Serral, the Savior of the scene. Also how does he revitalized the Korean scene? If you're talking abotu the whole scene. How did he help the NA scene exactly? or SA if that matters
Edit> you can replace some scenes with the game if it helps
I don't have the numbers to back this up but I'm pretty sure viewership in all regions have gone up in 2018 which is largely Serral's fault
I don\t have the numbers to back this up, but I'm pretty sure the viewership in Korea was increased by the phenomen named Maru. It's your feeling vs mine feeling. (also not sure if the Korean numbers even got higher, but imma rolling with this feeling battles)
Edit> Actually, the first reported increase in the viewership in 2018 is from March, which is not when Serral was in his prime powah because that's when he got his ass kicked at WESG by, uh, Maru
It actually may be connected to the fact, that in 2018 it was the 20-year anniversary of SC and Blizzard was actually promoting SC across the boards.
Edit 2> again, as i mentioned earlier, the biggest viewership are getting FvK, so some increase was thanks to Serral, but saying Serral saved all the regions, increased viewership across all the regions while Blizzard was promoting SC content is somewhat funny.
On November 20 2020 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Oh man ... people are seriously mentioning Serral in a GOAT discussion... I don't know how deluded one must be to consider a player who was only a contender during 3 years out of SC2's 10 year lifespan and except 3 tournaments only won region-locked, online or invite-only tournaments......
not to mention he played in one of the weakest eras of the game and mostly in a Zerg favored metagame. This is why everyone here makes fun of Serral when he loses.
People play in the circumstances they have, so it's odd to me to hold that against them. While it's certainly true that the scene is overall less competitive now, the game requires better mechanics, multitasking and strategy now than ever to succeed at consistently. Reaching late-game and being forced to play late-game is actually a thing, because the game is so much less volatile overall than it used to be.
We're not comparing it to early WoL here. During 2014-15 the game was already incredibly refined. And while you're right that it's maybe unfair to Serral to hold his circumstances against him it would also be unfair to act like a tournament win now is worth as much as it was during an era where we had 30-40 koreans in teamhouses practicing 8 hours a day and playing every week in Proleague. Why do I get pissed by people mentioning Serral in a GOAT debate? Because I think the only reason he gets mentioned is because he's a foreigner and that it's insulting to the actual goat candidates who are at the top for 8 years, succesful during different metas/expansion, winning during a time when competition was 10* tougher than it is now and now a foreigner wins some tournaments and because he's a foreigner it's supposed to be so much more impressive.
The reason he gets mentioned is his absolute dominance in 2018-19. I don't personally subscribe to the "serral is goat" line of thinking but i do think late 2018 Serral was peak sc2 gameplay and its not a surprise that it gets fans going.
If you didn't notice, as our JJ friend pointed out, there is at least one case similar to Serral's: TaeJa; I am saying similar because Serral has overtaken TaeJa at this point by winning two more Premiers, reaching more finals, actually conquering a World Championship and grabbing two titles on korean soil. TaeJa, guess what, is korean, so we can conclude that your hate for foreigners is blinding you: there is no doubt Serral deserves to be mentioned in a GOAT conversation regardless of nationality. It was legit for you to be sceptical after his first international tournament, now it's not anymore. Also, NOBODY should mock players after they lose, your irrational hatred towards non korean players finding success in Starcraft is making you act this way in regards of a player you originally liked and whose caliber, after all, you respect(your posts, your words).
It's also quite weird that, after praising Maru and Rogue so much for what they have achieved basically in the same era Serral did, we now find out the latter's successes are irrelevant since they took place in such an uncompetitive environment. If you sincerely think that(I'd disagree regardless), you should also admit that Maru and Rogue weren't good enough to rise to prominence during the supposed "Golden Age" of Sc2 and that they feasted upon. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy at its finest.
Korean Sc2 reached its apex in 2015, that's true, but while the scene has become less competitive, the game itself has become more demanding and the skill of the top players certainly hasn't declined; for sure it had not in 2018/2019 when korean scene had still enough density and its top players weren't affected by major injuries.
For the record I have no doubt that you would not rate Serral as highly if he was Korean. I was just saying Taeja is similar and some people would still overrate him.
I also think it's funny that you're trying to take some type of moral high ground about being happy when players lose despite how clearly you've enjoyed some of Maru's losses.
Taeja is pretty underrated IMO, kind of how Serral is in some quarters, namely the lack of those GSLs.
From the actual level of play he was showing in his peak years and results against the same players in every competition but GSL, Taeja was a better player than some give him credit for these days.
Even if they were mere fleeting summers Taeja did have periods where he was probably the best player in the world, not many can have that on their resume.
While I love summer Taeja and clapping, he sadly never delivered in the big tourneys. IIRC he didn't even win the WCS NA. Funny thing is, that Taeja got some nice RO4(Code S, Blizzcon), but it's ignored the same way the Maru's are, at least people are consistent in this across all Koreans.
I would say Taeja and Maru's Top 4 are underrated the same way Serral's Top 4 are.
In adition to the enormous count of premiers hes got, he still has 2 IEMs Top 4, 1 Top 2 WESG, 1 Top 3 WESG, 1 Top 4 Global Finals and 1 Top 4 Asus Rog
On November 20 2020 06:21 JJH777 wrote: I think a Korean with Serrals record would be mentioned as a goat candidate but there is no doubt in my mind there would be way less people who think that. These discussions remind me of when people thought Taeja was the goat which in my opinion never made any sense. Sure there was a period of time where had had more first places in premiers than any other players but they were lower quality premiers and unless I'm misremembering he has still to date never won anything on the level of GSL, a world championship, or anything else with a 6 figure prize pool. Serral is similar except he actually does have a world championship but that's his only truly major tournament. Homestory cups, WCS, GSL vs the world, these online finals, are all great and are definitely not easy to win but in my opinion you'll never be GOAT with just those no matter how many you win.
depends, nobody took Polt/MMA or MC that seriously when they were winning WCS NA and EU easily because these tournaments were borderline worthless because all the talent was in GSL. That is basically what Serral is doing. Winning tournaments when the competition is at its lowest ever in sc2.
Is that unfair to Serral? Well, on 1 hand, he will never be able to prove how good he is since he only became relevant when sc2 became borderline dead. On the other hand, the fact that the competition level is soooooo abysmal right now allowed him to get a shit ton of cash.
So while he will never get to be considered a GOAT by people with average knowledge of the game because he never played in a competitive era, he got rich. Not a bad trade if you ask me.
There are grandmasters and professionals who consider Serral a GOAT. Do they have enough knowledge for u?
On November 19 2020 11:14 tskarzyn wrote: Serral is easily the most reliable weekend Euro tournament player. Considering he typically only plays Koreans when they are jetlagged or playing at crazy hours on high ping, I'm not sure we really know how he stacks up against the GOAT contenders. (When he had to travel to Korea for blizzcon last year, he had a top-4 finish. Solid, but considering how strong Zerg was I'm not sure it's that impressive.)
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/Winter2020/seasonfinalsgroups.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/6b41v5E.gif)
). I think Serral needs one more very big win to be in the discussion (but damn he makes me believe he can do it).
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/X1A2kPL.jpg)
