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Harassment/Abuse in StarCraft 2 - Page 66
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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. | ||
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linestein
United States210 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
There's a depressingly long list of allegations on their subreddit. Not really sure what thread these should go in, tbh. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hjfv0y/summary_of_sexual_and_nonsexual_allegations/ | ||
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
On July 02 2020 15:42 linestein wrote: One of the main issues in play is the complexity of inter-gender psychology. The relationship between man and woman, or man and man, or woman and woman is complex. The more charged with significance is the relationship, the more tension naturally arises. People are inter-dependent is one way of phrasing this, although it might be outside the current sentiment. My point is that most of this discussion is about "relatively minor" error in romantic relationship. Romantic is a very important term here. People place "psychological wagers" on the outcome of romantic relationship. It is true that indiscretions of a sexual nature tend to occur within romantic relationships. This is not excuse for harassment or abuse, but applies more-so within these contexts. Certain excusable behavior becomes inexcusable. The people who made the allegations were not in romantic relationships with those they accused though. The only person that was at any point was Atira who clearly went through severe abuse and grooming. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
To me at least, it seems the current bar is completely subjective. How did an alleged victim's perception of some behavior make them feel. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9745 Posts
On July 03 2020 04:09 tskarzyn wrote: What would cause the pro MeToo folks to believe the movement has gone too far? What level of offense should not be cancel-worthy? Allegations absent proof meet the current bar. So do DPs. How about dirty jokes? Asking someone on a date a second or third time after being told no on the first attempt? (A good chunk of marriage stories.) Making a pass at someone you think may or may not share your feelings about them? To me at least, it seems the curremt bar is completely subjective. How did an alleged victim's perception of some behavior make them feel. Proof isn't necessary in many cases. The actual behavior isn't even debates in many cases. You say this, but a brief look through this thread and you will notice: 1: A very long and tedious discussion of the evidence 2: A very long a tedious discussion of the actual behaviour 3: A very long an interesting debate about where the bar is for unacceptable behaviour etc. So I would say pretty much all of what you've written here is easily disproved by simply reading the thread  | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On July 03 2020 03:03 serendipitous wrote: The people who made the allegations were not in romantic relationships with those they accused though. The only person that was at any point was Atira who clearly went through severe abuse and grooming. Yeah there was no romance in that relationship. None that I saw in atira's statement anyway. There was avilo taking advantage of her being a good, nice person to wrap a web of crazy around her until she was too afraid and twisted up by him to get herself out of it for a long time. This is very common with abusers of avilo's type. They create a toxic codependency. avilo needed her because he's a control freak weirdo desperate to control a woman, he manipulated her into thinking she had to stick with him or something horrible was going to happen to him and it would be her fault. People like avilo emotionally manipulate and drain their victims until they dont know which way is up and are too scared and fatigued to end the toxic codependent relationship. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
On July 03 2020 04:12 Jockmcplop wrote: You say this, but a brief look through this thread and you will notice: 1: A very long and tedious discussion of the evidence 2: A very long a tedious discussion of the actual behaviour 3: A very long an interesting debate about where the bar is for unacceptable behaviour etc. So I would say pretty much all of what you've written here is easily disproved by simply reading the thread Let's take Rapid. What do we have proof of? He talked about his weeny and sent a DP after engaging with someone in DMs? | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9745 Posts
On July 03 2020 04:14 tskarzyn wrote: Let's take Rapid. What do we have proof of? He talked about his weeny and sent a DP after engaging with someone in DMs? Firstly, do yo want to talk proof (a standard of evidence that PROVES without any doubt that something happened), or evidence? There's plenty of evidence. Independent witness accounts which all verify each other as to the exact nature of his behaviour. Does it prove forensically that he did anything at all? No, but we aren't the police and we aren't a court. This is what the majority of this thread has been about. Its enough evidence to be pretty sure we don't want him around the community any more. He's more than welcome to make a statement of his own if he wants to. He talked about his weeny and sent a DP after engaging with someone in DMs? Forgive me but I'm trying to read your tone but this seems sarcastic. Do you think that this is acceptable behaviour in a professional setting? If you did this at work would you be outraged to find yourself unemployed pretty quickly? If it wasn't clear, I think that this particular behaviour is absolutely unprofessional, a serious abuse of his position and worthy of being got rid of. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
On July 03 2020 04:19 Jockmcplop wrote: Firstly, do yo want to talk proof (a standard of evidence that PROVES without any doubt that something happened), or evidence? There's plenty of evidence. Independent witness accounts which all verify each other as to the exact nature of his behaviour. Does it prove forensically that he did anything at all? No, but we aren't the police and we aren't a court. This is what the majority of this thread has been about. Its enough evidence to be pretty sure we don't want him around the community any more. He's more than welcome to make a statement of his own if he wants to. Forgive me but I'm trying to read your tone but this seems sarcastic. Do you think that this is acceptable behaviour in a professional setting? If you did this at work would you be outraged to find yourself unemployed pretty quickly? If it wasn't clear, I think that this particular behaviour is absolutely unprofessional, a serious abuse of his position and worthy of being got rid of. First, allegations are not proof, even if they come from multiple people. I read the main accuser claimed "the messages were deleted". Okay, so we don't know what he said. Second, abuse of his position? A low-wage caster who didn't employ or manage anyone? Fool me once, shame on me. Girl falls for pity party nice guy act, girl gets DP. Sorry, it's a private matter imo and can be remedied by being smarter next time. If she felt strongly about it, she could have sent evidence to his boss and let the organization resolve it. As a father, I'm not going to let my daughter believe she can be victimized so easily. Train your girls to be smart, confident, and tough and a loser like Avilo or Rapid is powerless. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9745 Posts
On July 03 2020 04:34 tskarzyn wrote: First, allegations are not proof, even if they come from multiple people. I read the main accuser claimed "the messages were deleted". Okay, so we don't know what he said. Second, abuse of his position? A low-wage caster who didn't employ or manage anyone? Fool me once, shame on me. Girl falls for pity party nice guy act, girl gets DP. Sorry, it's a private matter imo and can be remedied by being smarter next time. If she felt strongly about it, she could have sent evidence to his boss and let the organization resolve it. As a father, I'm not going to let my daughter believe she can be victimized so easily. Train your girls to be smart, confident, and tough and a loser like Avilo or Rapid is powerless. Forgive me for the crudeness but if someone did this to your daughter you would tell her to stfu and not tell anyone, right? If I had a daughter and someone treated her like that, I would want everyone to know that the guy is a dick. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On July 03 2020 04:34 tskarzyn wrote: First, allegations are not proof, even if they come from multiple people. I read the main accuser claimed "the messages were deleted". Okay, so we don't know what he said. Second, abuse of his position? A low-wage caster who didn't employ or manage anyone? Fool me once, shame on me. Girl falls for pity party nice guy act, girl gets DP. Sorry, it's a private matter imo and can be remedied by being smarter next time. If she felt strongly about it, she could have sent evidence to his boss and let the organization resolve it. As a father, I'm not going to let my daughter believe she can be victimized so easily. Train your girls to be smart, confident, and tough and a loser like Avilo or Rapid is powerless. How is he a loser? Based on what? I thought you wanted more proof or something. Calling him a loser while insisting more proof necessary and it's not a big deal anyway is self contradictory I guarantee that if your daughter started getting pics of some dudes dick she didnt want to get and you found out youd want to strangle him. Even if she did want to get them you probably still would want to strangle him, depending on her age. Nice victim blaming too, it's their fault they weren't confident, smart, and tough enough so they got victimized. Okay sure | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26147 Posts
On July 03 2020 04:34 tskarzyn wrote: First, allegations are not proof, even if they come from multiple people. I read the main accuser claimed "the messages were deleted". Okay, so we don't know what he said. Second, abuse of his position? A low-wage caster who didn't employ or manage anyone? Fool me once, shame on me. Girl falls for pity party nice guy act, girl gets DP. Sorry, it's a private matter imo and can be remedied by being smarter next time. If she felt strongly about it, she could have sent evidence to his boss and let the organization resolve it. As a father, I'm not going to let my daughter believe she can be victimized so easily. Train your girls to be smart, confident, and tough and a loser like Avilo or Rapid is powerless. And what if they’re not a ‘loser’, what then? Or what if they are your boss or in a position of power above you? Or what if allegations were reported to team management and other figures who covered them up? Which isn’t even a hypothetical, it forms a big part of the DoTa storm which dwarfs what we’re seeing in SC2 at present. Doesn’t seem a particularly sound strategy across the board. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
Here in the US we're required to take sexual harassment training at many jobs. We need things like that in esports. He probably felt he wasn't doing much harm to women because everything was just online messages. Like shitty flirting skills. Ask any women who has used things like Tinder, and they will tell you that it's not uncommon for men to just send dick pictures to women without permission. Not trying to defend his harassment, but it could have been much worse, like IRL rape allegations. It's obvious he got off to it. Finally I'm happy that the starcraft allegations we've seen are nothing compared to what we're seeing in some other communities, like smash bros... read these it's insane. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26147 Posts
On July 03 2020 07:34 franzji wrote: Well I'm glad Rapid apologized in private to people AT LEAST. Here in the US we're required to take sexual harassment training at many jobs. We need things like that in esports. He probably felt he wasn't doing much harm to women because everything was just online messages. Like shitty flirting skills. Ask any women who has used things like Tinder, and they will tell you that it's not uncommon for men to just send dick pictures to women without permission. Not trying to defend his harassment, but it could have been much worse, like IRL rape allegations. It's obvious he got off to it. Finally I'm happy that the starcraft allegations we've seen are nothing compared to what we're seeing in some other communities, like smart bros... read these it's insane. Jesus that’s a lot of hyperlinks, can you give me the cliff notes so I don’t end up super depressed? Also to the bolded part, this. Amongst other safeguarding measures and a way that people can make these reports safely to figures in the community internally without fearing repercussions In the medium to long term I have zero interest in a cycle of shitty behaviour - public allegations on social media - singular person gets chased out of the community. Any abuse shouldn’t be allowed to happen, or at least be restricted and not allowed to escalate. Nothing against Rapid personally, indeed the structures I’m briefly skimming over could have helped the guy. Someone raises a concern with somebody else, that person takes Rapid aside and tells him strongly that behaviour is unacceptable, he’s suspended or whatever. Instead Rapid was able to keep doing the same things over and over to the degree that when they did come out his position was untenable. The current omertà benefits nobody. Certainly not the victims who should be the prime concern, but it doesn’t help individuals who engage in problematic behaviour. It doesn’t help the industry to have scandals of this kind eventually emerge. It doesn’t help the people who’ve done nothing wrong whatsoever, because in the absence of rigorous structures and safeguarding going to Twitter is the sole recourse of arbitration here. Total fucking mess, hopefully it gets sorted. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
On July 03 2020 06:35 Wombat_NI wrote: And what if they’re not a ‘loser’, what then? Or what if they are your boss or in a position of power above you? Or what if allegations were reported to team management and other figures who covered them up? Which isn’t even a hypothetical, it forms a big part of the DoTa storm which dwarfs what we’re seeing in SC2 at present. Doesn’t seem a particularly sound strategy across the board. IMO, an employer's responsibility extends as far as the office. What an employee does in private with people they do not employ is not their concern unless it impacts their bottom line. If an employee is sexually harassed, reports it, and management covers it up, their employer would be on the hook for damages. The bar for sexual harassment in the workplace is low. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26147 Posts
On July 03 2020 07:43 Oukka wrote: I don't usually open twitch chat's for big events as there rarely is anything of value there, but decided to check it for the EPT tonight. The amount of casual sexism and transphobia flying there was disgusting. Have we always been this bad as a community? Recent events have kinda opened my eyes a bit and that was just miserable, ESL/Blizz needs to do something about that if we want sc2 to be welcoming Yes and no. If you raise objections you get the ‘it’s just Twitch chat’. It’s considerably worse on big events. On smaller channels with less viewership and a few mods present I think we do a pretty good job honestly. It’s just hard to moderate anything with a big viewership. Watching and chatting with fellow fans should be a great thing, it so frequently is not. I would go so far as to just disable chats entirely once the viewership is beyond the capacity to moderate with even a full team of humans. Even subscriber only doesn’t seem to work in this regard. May be a bit extreme for some, I’d prefer no chat to somebody like Scarlett having transphobic abuse spammed at her any time she plays. On the other hand, in areas where accountability, moderation and familiarity are a factor (such as TL), Scarlett has an absolute ton of really positive support, so I do think a lot of the community are really good, genuine people. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26147 Posts
On July 03 2020 07:51 tskarzyn wrote: IMO, an employer's responsibility extends as far as the office. What an employee does in private with people they do not employ is not their concern unless it impacts their bottom line. If an employee is sexually harassed, reports it, and management covers it up, their employer would be on the hook for damages. The bar for sexual harassment in the workplace is low. So it basically extends nowhere at all then? Have you read the stuff from Dota2 by any chance? What about when it’s Redeye who half owns the production company, who do you go to in that scenario? Also in a wider sense we’re talking a multinational industry where casting talent operate more akin to freelancers in many instances, although some companies directly employ casters first their productions too. If you’re say, American working at an event in mainland Europe for a European based event that contracts the production to a U.K. company, one of whom’s members assaults you, what’s the legal process there for recourse outside of being rather complicated and expensive to even look into? | ||
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