EPTHow about inviting a (maybe several) predominately women based org that doesn't have something like TL to share this space and listening to them when they critique how we could be more accommodating for them/other women gamers?
Harassment/Abuse in StarCraft 2 - Page 64
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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23237 Posts
How about inviting a (maybe several) predominately women based org that doesn't have something like TL to share this space and listening to them when they critique how we could be more accommodating for them/other women gamers? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25372 Posts
On July 01 2020 09:29 GreenHorizons wrote: I thought about this for 30 seconds right now and came up with an idea several magnitudes better for how we as a community (who we should be focusing on, if not expressing support [not advice] for survivors and such imo) could do something. How about inviting a (maybe several) predominately women based org that doesn't have something like TL to share this space and listening to them when they critique how we could be more accommodating for them/other women gamers? Stop doing yourself a disservice, that took you 10 seconds max. Agreed 100%, assuming you mean a gaming woman’s org. If not I feel total outsiders can kinda overreach a bit due to not understanding the culture. I’ve read articles in the past from such sources and I think they go a bit far in demands to detoxifying the space. Namely basically all toxicity As much as I hate the toxic abuse in gaming, the banter of balance and race whining is quite fun and adds to a warped camaraderie. Most things, absolutely. It’s kinda heartbreaking when you’re playing as a 3 man Fortnite squad with your 7 year old and your 15 year old sister and you refuse their request to be allowed onto voice chat. For his sake what he’d hear and for hers the response the second a female chat voice appeared. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23237 Posts
On July 01 2020 09:46 Wombat_NI wrote: Stop doing yourself a disservice, that took you 10 seconds max. Agreed 100%, assuming you mean a gaming woman’s org. If not I feel total outsiders can kinda overreach a bit due to not understanding the culture. I’ve read articles in the past from such sources and I think they go a bit far in demands to detoxifying the space. Namely basically all toxicity As much as I hate the toxic abuse in gaming, the banter of balance and race whining is quite fun and adds to a warped camaraderie. Most things, absolutely. It’s kinda heartbreaking when you’re playing as a 3 man Fortnite squad with your 7 year old and your 15 year old sister and you refuse their request to be allowed onto voice chat. For his sake what he’d hear and for hers the response the second a female chat voice appeared. Yeah, definitely gaming. It's a gaming site after all. Seeking out a group of predominately women in gaming and maybe adding a game in the 'other games' section that is particularly popular among them but maybe not us might be part of that for example. Now realistically, I don't think we're ready. I think they'd be badgered with questions and demanded to substantiate their existence and presence constantly (or ignore the people questioning it relentlessly). But if they knew that coming in and came anyway then maybe hearing it from them directly might improve some things a bit quicker. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25372 Posts
On July 01 2020 10:24 GreenHorizons wrote: Yeah, definitely gaming. It's a gaming site after all. Seeking out a group of predominately women in gaming and maybe adding a game in the 'other games' section that is particularly popular among them but maybe not us might be part of that for example. Now realistically, I don't think we're ready. I think they'd be badgered with questions and demanded to substantiate their existence and presence constantly (or ignore the people questioning it relentlessly). But if they knew that coming in and came anyway then maybe hearing it from them directly might improve some things a bit quicker. Probably. Equally I’d prefer people to hear from women themselves rather than interceding on their behalf via my interpretations or yours. Not that I think we’re particularly bad interlocutors here but some experience from females would be most welcome to this discussion. We’re operating from solidarity and empathy rather than direct experience. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25372 Posts
On July 01 2020 09:05 StarStruck wrote: I don't think anyone was saying that is the absolute solution. I think from every message I read people are saying education helps. The only reason I think this is continuing is one person in particular got sensitive over the idea and thought that was the only thing people was suggesting. -_- Fair, if it’s only one person advocating such things, well they’re the only person with the courage to put it to words. There’s probably a lot of lurkers nodding along to it, so I chose to respond to it with that in mind. There’s an appalling level of victim blaming, not in this thread but in its equivalents on Reddit and Twitter with their less strict moderation. If I swing just one person into re-evaluating their views that’s a net win, so I’ll continue to try and do it. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11514 Posts
On July 01 2020 10:34 Wombat_NI wrote: Probably. Equally I’d prefer people to hear from women themselves rather than interceding on their behalf via my interpretations or yours. Not that I think we’re particularly bad interlocutors here but some experience from females would be most welcome to this discussion. We’re operating from solidarity and empathy rather than direct experience. Definitively would be a good thing. If i recall the census that was done a while ago correctly, TL was about 99% male, so we are kinda stuck with being men advocating for women here. I do agree that some sort of program like GH described would be a very good thing if it could be organized. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On July 01 2020 09:29 GreenHorizons wrote: I thought about this for 30 seconds right now and came up with an idea several magnitudes better for how we as a community (who we should be focusing on, if not expressing support [not advice] for survivors and such imo) could do something. How about inviting a (maybe several) predominately women based org that doesn't have something like TL to share this space and listening to them when they critique how we could be more accommodating for them/other women gamers? I recommend watching omg it's a girl with an open mind for starters. To ease into the thought that maybe women feel rather out of place at times and that they might be a wee bit annoyed by good guys leaving them stranded against the waves of misogyny. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9651 Posts
On July 01 2020 18:43 Artisreal wrote: I recommend watching omg it's a girl with an open mind for starters. To ease into the thought that maybe women feel rather out of place at times and that they might be a wee bit annoyed by good guys leaving them stranded against the waves of misogyny. I just watched it... Its a bit of a kick in the balls for people believe who deny the existence of toxic masculinity. | ||
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Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
On June 30 2020 23:24 serendipitous wrote: Women are very well educated and tend to spend their lives watching out for being raped. Women never walk alone at night, never accept drinks from strangers, etc. They already try incredibly hard to avoid sexual assault, lots of women even carry pepper spray or sharp objects on their keychains in places where those are legal. While I think that is generally quite true, it nonetheless doesn’t align with my anecdotal experience at all, as many of my female friends and ex-girlfriends have been absolutely brazen in their naivete about danger and the notion of taking sensible precautions. Maybe that’s just the people I know haha In any case, I think Fayth makes a perfectly reasonable point. A line that is commonly repeated by activists is “don’t tell girls not to [x], teach boys not to rape!” And yet it seems to me that both are necessary for tackling this horrific problem — men should be taught as much as possible to respect women’s boundaries, but likewise women should be encouraged to take reasonable precautions wherever possible. No one ever says “don’t tell me to lock my doors, tell people not to steal!” and certainly no one would call it victim blaming to encourage someone to wear a seatbelt. I do want to speak briefly about the accusations referenced in the OP and say that like everyone else in this thread I have great admiration for their courage in speaking out. I have noticed that often people in our (nerdier) kinds of circles can act incredibly inappropriately with women, and I’m not quite sure why that is. In the milder cases perhaps a lack of experience and poor social skills, but in the more severe cases it is much harder for me to understand. It is an injustice to the victims, and while I have my reservations about hashtag social movements/social media dogpiles, this is undoubtedly a necessary discussion. In the cases where multiple people are independently attesting to the bad behavior, it seems fairly cut and dry. In the JP case I am reserving final judgement until more information comes out. This is not the same as disbelief, rather I just think it is more fair to wait for further details. If I made a judgment now, I wouldn’t even know precisely what I was believing. It’s always easy to say “yeah, I always knew _____ was a scumbag!” ex post facto. Above all, I hope we can moderate ourselves and become an example of the appropriate way for a community to address situations like this. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11514 Posts
"You should do X to reduce the chance of getting raped" can quickly turn into "You didn't do X, that is why you got raped", and then into "It is your own fault you got raped". Also, a lot of the time this is the only thing being talked about, while it is actually a secondary problem. The clear core problem is that people rape other people. And that is what should be the main focus. Not a program to teach women how to dress and where to go at what time to slighly reduce the chance of being raped. I also wonder in how many cases one women dressing very conservatively and not walking in the wrong area just lead to another women getting raped instead. | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On June 30 2020 15:04 Heartland wrote: if it was in human DNA then: 1) There would be a constant amount of rapes, it rather seems like this is changing over time and in different places, contexts and times. 2) Women would do it just as much as men. I do not agree with ProBell's assertion, but it is harmful to spread information with such a lack of biological understanding. 1)"Over time and in different places, contexts, and times", genes change. 2)Y-Chromosomes exist bro. Neither of these are the reasons it is not in DNA. I do think it is something that culture and behavior can dictate more than any possible DNA effect, and I think that is the proper argument here. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11514 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
Not justifying why shit might be in human nature. How do we set up the scene to prevent such situations? | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On July 02 2020 01:18 Artisreal wrote: This discussion about genetics is not in any shape or form appropriate for this topic. We agree that there is shit happening and that we want to prevent it from perpetually happening again. Not justifying why shit might be in human nature. How do we set up the scene to prevent such situations? With female voices in our community that are respected and listened to, we can start. It will be a long, arduous road. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11514 Posts
For example, generally have very few situations where two people are in a locked room together. There are not a lot of cases where that is actually necessary. At the university faculty i worked at, doors to all offices were open by default. (And i mean literally open, not as a metaphor for "you can always come in") Some central place victims can go to without being judged is also very important. Sadly a bit hard to organize due to the decentral nature of the scene. Generally remove any acceptance of sexist bullshit, or any of the stuff that is on the border to sexual harassment. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway699 Posts
On July 02 2020 01:18 Artisreal wrote: How do we set up the scene to prevent such situations? By hiring only straight white men :D | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
I was barely able to restrain myself from including this satirical line D-: But as has been said multiple times already, I concur that the inclusion of women voices is a good first step. A professionalisation of the tournament organisers, insofar as to prepare an event/ broadcast that not only caters the core, male, young audience, seems also a necessity (Which also helps to maintain said core audience because others feel alienated). Hopefully with the help of female limelight and background professionals. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23237 Posts
On July 02 2020 03:17 Artisreal wrote: I was barely able to restrain myself from including this satirical line D-: But as has been said multiple times already, I concur that the inclusion of women voices is a good first step. A professionalisation of the tournament organisers, insofar as to prepare an event/ broadcast that not only caters the core, male, young audience, seems also a necessity (Which also helps to maintain said core audience because others feel alienated). Hopefully with the help of female limelight and background professionals. I don't think the idea is being received well by moderation as far as I can tell? Without their support it ain't happening. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On July 02 2020 03:33 GreenHorizons wrote: I don't think the idea is being received well by moderation as far as I can tell? Without their support it ain't happening. I am not quite sure what you're referring to here unfortunately. Moderation can hardly influence tournament organisers, so it must be female voices. Including them prerequisites them identifying themselves as such (I think?). Which in turn centers all the attention and abuse (pm and openly) on them. Making TL (even) less of a safe space for them. So I find it tricky. This though is something moderation could manage by setting aggressive standards of conduct ( normal standards, really), thus enabling a platform where exchange for the willing can happen. You yourself know best how tedious this process can and will be. If any users that would volunteer for such an endeavour I think they'd already be participating more actively? I have not followed this specific thread well enough to comment on that tbh. Is this close to what you had in mind? | ||
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