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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On July 01 2020 03:28 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
You need to have a process for these things or else I think you can end up in a weird legal situation. See Sports leagues that constantly end up in court over suspensions. I'd be surprised if there was an already existing and fleshed out plan/strategy for dealing with these things. These things can take a bit of time.
It's been a bit of time imo Avilo's liquipedia says it's been "under consideration" for nearly a week. Didn't take two of the other orgs listed there that long.
Worth noting, not having a process is an explanation for an elongated response time, but it isn't an excuse for not having a process. That's an oversight/lack of consideration organizers have to be accountable for.
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I completely agree with you there. There's just not anything the company can do about it now though. Just knowing other organizations these things can take a while (don't have enough knowledge to know how long they should take)
Also don't know legally how much their aloud to say while its ongoing. They should at the minimum probably say something more than where looking into it like we are opening an investigation into the matter.
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On July 01 2020 03:47 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I completely agree with you there. There's just not anything the company can do about it now though. Just knowing other organizations these things can take a while (don't have enough knowledge to know how long they should take)
Also don't know legally how much their aloud to say while its ongoing. They should at the minimum probably say something more than where looking into it like we are opening an investigation into the matter.
I don't know what laws would prevent them from just saying "Avilo will not be in our event" or what legal exposure that leaves them vulnerable to?
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Northern Ireland26540 Posts
On July 01 2020 03:55 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2020 03:47 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I completely agree with you there. There's just not anything the company can do about it now though. Just knowing other organizations these things can take a while (don't have enough knowledge to know how long they should take)
Also don't know legally how much their aloud to say while its ongoing. They should at the minimum probably say something more than where looking into it like we are opening an investigation into the matter. I don't know what laws would prevent them from just saying "Avilo will not be in our event" or what legal exposure that leaves them vulnerable to?
There is that. That said there’s Dreamhack this week, not sure when there’s the next ESL online cup.
As long as a ban comes for the next one, I can excuse some sort of delay. It’s still too long for sure, I can only speculate as to what the delay is because I spent about 15 minutes browsing Twitter and Reddit (two sites I barely used) and had more than enough egregious conduct to justify a ban.
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On July 01 2020 03:44 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2020 03:28 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
You need to have a process for these things or else I think you can end up in a weird legal situation. See Sports leagues that constantly end up in court over suspensions. I'd be surprised if there was an already existing and fleshed out plan/strategy for dealing with these things. These things can take a bit of time. It's been a bit of time imo Avilo's liquipedia says it's been "under consideration" for nearly a week. Didn't take two of the other orgs listed there that long. Worth noting, not having a process is an explanation for an elongated response time, but it isn't an excuse for not having a process. That's an oversight/lack of consideration organizers have to be accountable for.
Maybe Blizzard have to be involved somehow and that is what's taking the time?
I guess there could be a few explanations. Maybe they needed to speak to lawyers first.
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Northern Ireland26540 Posts
On July 01 2020 04:14 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2020 03:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2020 03:28 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
You need to have a process for these things or else I think you can end up in a weird legal situation. See Sports leagues that constantly end up in court over suspensions. I'd be surprised if there was an already existing and fleshed out plan/strategy for dealing with these things. These things can take a bit of time. It's been a bit of time imo Avilo's liquipedia says it's been "under consideration" for nearly a week. Didn't take two of the other orgs listed there that long. Worth noting, not having a process is an explanation for an elongated response time, but it isn't an excuse for not having a process. That's an oversight/lack of consideration organizers have to be accountable for. Maybe Blizzard have to be involved somehow and that is what's taking the time? I guess there could be a few explanations. Maybe they needed to speak to lawyers first.
Given his propensity to spend all his effort trying to get around various bannings, could be looking into ways to make it actually stick too.
Hope these kind of considerations are the cause of the delays anyway
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I would just say that optimism doesn't feel rooted in recognition of how we got here in the first place.
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On July 01 2020 04:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
I would just say that optimism doesn't feel rooted in recognition of how we got here in the first place.
That's a very fair point.
Its all speculation anyway. I can definitely see real reasons why this can't instantly happen, but it must happen soon.
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On July 01 2020 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2020 04:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
I would just say that optimism doesn't feel rooted in recognition of how we got here in the first place. That's a very fair point. Its all speculation anyway. I can definitely see real reasons why this can't instantly happen, but it must happen soon.
I've typed and deleted a lot posts for this thread long before this, so I'll try to just get this out.
I like Apollo and I don't like how long this is taking. I don't even like the "looking into" framing of what I'd hope he would have just been aware of, but understanding his position, he would have at least been immediately presented with more than enough to say something stronger the following day (even if further action would take much longer).
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The feet dragging is inexcusable imo, Avilo should be gone yesterday.
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On June 30 2020 23:01 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 22:14 ROOTFayth wrote:
arguing against also educating potential victims is kind of the same as saying you shouldn't need to wear a seatbelt, should just educate people not to drunk drive and people to drive safely Nobody’s arguing against education in this sphere far as I can tell, we’re arguing that its not THE solution if it’s entirely stuck on the victim’s shoulders.
well I'm just saying that because I came across some people, mix of women and men who told me that no, women shouldn't have to protect themselves, they should be able to walk at night without fearing for their life or be able to drink safely without added drugs
but it doesn't make sense, I mean yes in a very ideal world we should be able to leave our car anywhere unlocked and nobody would try and steal it or steal anything in it, same for the house, same for your wallet, but that's not the reality of the world, at this very moment taking precautions is always going to yield the best results (even if you happen to be one of the unlucky one who gets fucked despite taking all the necessary precautions)
so yeah anyway it's not THE solution but it's part of it, we can dream about a world where literally nobody will want to harm you in any way shape or form but we all know that's just not going to happen
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I don't know what the status of avilo's legal problems last year stemming from his harassment of atira are, but with atira's statement and his own actions in the last week (twitter etc) I suspect he is going to be facing more of those legal problems. I'm sure he's under some kind of order, or at least very strong expectation, from the cops and the court to not contact atira or anything and yeah he sure hasn't stopped since last year. Getting banned for life from everything or whatever is the least of what's coming for him.
As to why ESL hasn't come out yet with regards to avilo specifically I think every organization is still scrambling to figure out how big this is and it might make more sense to them to wait and hand out the bans all at once or in bunches and not piecemeal. Once they figure out how many bans actually need to happen.
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ESL may not be able to ban them on their own if they're running the EPT stuff on behalf of Blizzard. Would probably require blizzard esports folk to bar him from those events so he can't claim that ESL is preventing him from playing the blizzard tournament.
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Anyone have word on the Rapid situation? I heard he was let go from BSL but that's about it. I'm curious to know if there is any news from anyone (most of all him) on this situation, his response, and how he plans to move forward.
I always disliked Rapid as a caster and found him incredibly awkward and cringeworthy, so I am a biased observer here. But, for all that, i didnt think he was a bad guy. I also respected the fact that he seemed very involved in the community and was active and responsive to SC fans online. For him, at a time like this, to just go AWAL -- not make any statement, no apology, no explanation, nothing -- it really bothers me. It makes me feel as though even the few decent qualities he seemed to possess, which were his willingness to accept criticism (about his casting and such), and his closeness to the fans were not very sincere. For him to go dark and refuse to face the music, in this moment, i think is strategically dumb from a PR standpoint, and also demonstrates a kind of cowardice that i feel a lot of contempt for.
If you care about the community and your reputation, not to mention the people accusing you, you at the very least should apologize publicly, even if you have nothing else to say. That, at least, is owning up. At any rate, would like to hear any info on his situation or comments if there are any, thanks.
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I’ve heard that he has admitted what he’s done and has talked to victims behind the scenes and tried to make amends but that’s about it and I don’t know how truthful that is. It’s hard to believe that rapids flirting skills were cringier than his casting skills but he somehow managed it
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On July 01 2020 06:50 Oukka wrote:
ESL may not be able to ban them on their own if they're running the EPT stuff on behalf of Blizzard. Would probably require blizzard esports folk to bar him from those events so he can't claim that ESL is preventing him from playing the blizzard tournament.
I was thinking something like that as well, everyone knows avilo is going to have one last tantrum that his 'fans' will fuel for lulz as much as they can so make sure all the i's are dotted and T's crossed
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On July 01 2020 06:56 castleeMg wrote:
I’ve heard that he has admitted what he’s done and has talked to victims behind the scenes and tried to make amends but that’s about it and I don’t know how truthful that is. It’s hard to believe that rapids flirting skills were cringier than his casting skills but he somehow managed it
Hmm, well i guess that's something. Also sounds kind of in-character for him i suppose, if true. I can believe, based on everything i've heard and my overall impression of him that he's basically a creepy, inappropriate person that makes a lot of women in the scene uncomfortable while himself being somewhat oblivious. For most people in the scene, i could only assume they have enough of a social antenna they would never unintentionally harass so many people, but he seems somewhat on the spectrum so idk. In the most charitable light possible, he prolly knew what he was doing was wrong but also didn't know the extent and could not read peoples' revulsion to his behavior. Certainly that infamous story about him getting kicked out of the League scene makes it feel that way. I just think if he had any sense he would apologize, regardless of whatever thinking led him to this point. To just go dark entirely, it makes me think he's coming across as dishonest and cowardly, and losing the most important moment he has to at least show some character.
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On June 30 2020 23:01 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 22:14 ROOTFayth wrote:
arguing against also educating potential victims is kind of the same as saying you shouldn't need to wear a seatbelt, should just educate people not to drunk drive and people to drive safely Nobody’s arguing against education in this sphere far as I can tell, we’re arguing that its not THE solution if it’s entirely stuck on the victim’s shoulders. You can easily improve things quite a bit with a much more thorough sex ed/sex and relationships ed. It’s paywalled or Id link the podcast, was a rather long form discussion framed around a big rape trial involving sports stars here (rugby players, some went to my school). Everyone had an opinion on the case. Anyway the host, a former footballer who now is a therapist and who goes into schools delivering the kind of sex ed I’m referring to, and a woman who if memory serves does something similar around issues of sex and result. Some takeaways from memory that I feel are pertinent here; 1. The 15-18 year old boys the host dealt with were given various scenarios and to discuss if they were improper or wrong or not. They generally gave the ‘wrong’ answers, but upon peer discussion corrected eventually, even before the host interjected. Not only did they not realise certain things were wrong, they ended up correcting this themselves merely from being in an environment where they actually had to think and discuss this. 2. Young women should be aware of what they’re getting into and make decisions accordingly. As per this discussion it was more about ‘groupie culture’ and sports stars as it sprouted from a court case. Some people are psychologically able to deal with (the reasonable) likelihood of being treated like a piece of meat by a celebrity they hook up with, some people are absolutely not. Sure it’s a bit bleak but young women should be aware of those things going in. There’s much more besides. Ultimately you do need some life experience as well but education and culture can fill in a lot of the gaps, hell of a lot better than we’ve done previously. Recognising and respecting boundaries, knowing what manipulative or controlling behaviour looks like both on the giving and receiving end etc.
I don't think anyone was saying that is the absolute solution. I think from every message I read people are saying education helps. The only reason I think this is continuing is one person in particular got sensitive over the idea and thought that was the only thing people was suggesting. -_-
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EPT
