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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 30 2020 10:41 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 10:40 JohnDelaney wrote:On June 30 2020 10:31 JimmiC wrote:
Women shouldn't have to be taught how to not get raped, or not get harassed. Fair enough. In a perfect world I would agree. We will agree to disagree. On June 30 2020 10:31 NewSunshine wrote:
What do you say to women who were raped or assaulted before they were old enough to ever receive any such education? What of women who don't have the luxury of being able to cut an alcoholic out of their lives? What of women who were assaulted by someone who had the compulsion to do so independent of alcoholism? The solutions vary for each of those individual instances, and I don't know all of them. Many of those require substantial political reforms. On June 30 2020 10:31 NewSunshine wrote:
But it's disrespectful to the people that get assaulted, and what they have to live with, to suggest that the key is to educate victims more. That is your opinion. I do not think coming up with ideas, particularly ones that I think are being missed, to reduce future incidences is disrespectful. Why does there need to be a variety of solutions put in place to make sure all of the responsibility is on the people getting assaulted to not be assaulted, when you can address the one thing that literally every assault has in common?
You are now making a straw man. I never said reforming education is the only part of the solution, but I believe it to be helpful for reducing one kind of incident from occurring.
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On June 30 2020 10:45 NewSunshine wrote:
Also, telling victims that they need to be better educated so they can stop being victims, when it's the fault of a predator going well out of their way to assault them in the first place, is hugely disrespectful, because it abdicates the predators of all responsibility for their repugnant behavior, and places it instead on the people who are already being subject to lifelong emotional and physical trauma that is not of their doing or choosing. It's absolutely insane to me to suggest that it's all hunky dorey to say the victims need to do more. Bullshit.
Naaaaaah
Let him tell you that if he is a predator, drunk and mentally ill, its because of us and society. He is innocent. We don't live in a perfect world.
Let him tell you that a girl deserve to be raped and beaten if she hangs out with a boy who is drunk, toxic and crazy. She should think twice before speaking to him and not be so naive.
In fact let him tell you that girls are in fact bitches and hoes because thats what all the mainstream music and reedit memes he sees everyday tell him so. You understand, a decent girl should not drink and party with boys. And not only the mainstream music and social media but also the bible, this bitchy Eve who tempted the poor and innocent Adam to eat the apple.
Last thing: this thread should be closed by the admin. We all know now what is going on.
And for the rednecks, trolls and incel they go to to their standard loop without evolving:
1) deny
2) ask for proof because it seems too big
3) minimize the facts
4) tell you that the girl is guilty because she is a bitch
5) go back to 1)
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@JohnDelaney and @NewSunshine
I think the dissonance here may stem from a different point of view on where these assaults are stemming from.
@NewSunshine - I think it would reduce the rates of sexual assault somewhat to teach victims to deal with it in particular ways. I have been sexually assaulted before, and I do believe this. Here are the ways I believe this to be true:
1. Report the offender to the relevant authorities, including the police, to reduce the chances of repeat behaviour
2. Reduce involvement of risky scenarios, to reduce vulnerability
3. Raise awareness of countermeasures
If there are other common methods please let me know.
Examples of the above:
2. Not walking/running alone at night as a vulnerable woman
3. Not leaving an open drink alone
While I recognize the above would reduce your chances of being sexually assaulted, and I'm not aware of much else that would help, it is important to keep in mind that it will not remove or even drastically reduce the chances. I am also saddened that the world we live in is like this. I also would like to point out that none of the above applied to me and I was still sexually assaulted.
Finally, the above, while true, serve as distractions from the fact that our authorities are doing so little to help these sorts of cases. For example, in the US there is a gigantic rape kit backlog which grows every year. In Detroit they investigated a backlog growing from 1984. Out of 10K rape kits they got 127 convictions and found 817 serial rapists. The earliest of those cases, in 1984, would now be 36 years old. Piles like this exist around the US. The police and DAs themselves have no real interest in going after these cases since they are so difficult to investigate and prosecute, meaning the much more career-advancing drug cases get priority. Authorities around the world have forgotten to focus on societal victims, and have moved away from focusing on Rape Murder and Robbery.
@JohnDelaney - As I mentioned above, a major contributor to reducing rape and sexual assault is to investigate the cases, clear the rape kit backlogs, create a society in which people are willing to come forward and lodge charges. The other major contributor is to educate boys and men on what consent is exactly, how enthusiastic consent works, and how intoxication influences consent. I think a number of cases of sexual assault every year could be prevented by an earnest societal effort to make it clear what consent entails in its entirety. Trying to put the onus on the victims, I think, is useless at best for the following reasons:
1. It shifts the blame from those doing the perpetrator to the victim
2. It steals the air in the conversation from that broad societal conversation, and instead focuses it on victim behaviour shaming
3. It implies that sexual assault is avoidable if you're a good little girl, and that bad little girls will be sexually assaulted(see also the fucked up culture around sex in the US)
4. These conversations are already happening - women generally know, for example, not to leave their drinks unattended
5. Ultimately, it doesn't significantly reduce the amount of sexual assault happening, while putting the onus on the victims, therefore making it a less than useless approach
Given the above, focusing on societal conversations about consent and sexuality, and making sure we hold those responsible accountable are the best approaches we have in general to reduce sexual assault.
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On June 30 2020 11:04 WarSame wrote:
@NewSunshine - I think it would reduce the rates of sexual assault somewhat to teach victims to deal with it in particular ways. I have been sexually assaulted before, and I do believe this. Here are the ways I believe this to be true:
[...]
2. Not walking/running alone at night as a vulnerable woman
3. Not leaving an open drink alone
Definitly, we should go back 100 years ago. A women should not walk at night. She should not even vote, work or receive scientific education. She should stay home, make food and pray god, thats the only way for her to be safe.
@WarSame
I hope you do understand that the mentality you have is the one that your great grand father had and that you didn't evolve?
User was banned for this post.
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On June 30 2020 11:19 rekoJ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 11:04 WarSame wrote:
@NewSunshine - I think it would reduce the rates of sexual assault somewhat to teach victims to deal with it in particular ways. I have been sexually assaulted before, and I do believe this. Here are the ways I believe this to be true:
[...]
2. Not walking/running alone at night as a vulnerable woman
3. Not leaving an open drink alone
Definitly, we should go back 100 years ago. A women should not walk at night. She should not even vote, work or receive scientific education. She should stay home, make food and pray god, thats the only way for her to be safe. @WarSame I hope you do understand that the mentality you have is the one that your great grand father had and that you didn't evolve?
I think you've got me all wrong, but that's ok. I find it abhorrent that women are forced to or feel forced to do this. I wish this were not the case, but I think if you were to do a survey on women they would say that they do these sorts of things to reduce their own risk. I pray for and work towards a world where this is not the case, but we are not there yet. When women feel that they are just as safe as men are and that they are extremely unlikely to be sexually assaulted I will be satisfied with the progress.
On a related note, we were talking about victim blaming previously. A perspective I have heard is that victim blaming is when you give someone advice on how to avoid sexual assault after the fact, whereas it is not when you are giving them advice before the fact. I think my advice above falls into the second camp since there is no particular instance I'm talking about.
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Lord have mercy, we need Jesus, y'all.....
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1. Report the offender to the relevant authorities, including the police, to reduce the chances of repeat behaviour
This is often a source of more trauma and 0 resolution.
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On June 30 2020 11:31 WarSame wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 11:19 rekoJ wrote:On June 30 2020 11:04 WarSame wrote:
@NewSunshine - I think it would reduce the rates of sexual assault somewhat to teach victims to deal with it in particular ways. I have been sexually assaulted before, and I do believe this. Here are the ways I believe this to be true:
[...]
2. Not walking/running alone at night as a vulnerable woman
3. Not leaving an open drink alone
Definitly, we should go back 100 years ago. A women should not walk at night. She should not even vote, work or receive scientific education. She should stay home, make food and pray god, thats the only way for her to be safe. @WarSame I hope you do understand that the mentality you have is the one that your great grand father had and that you didn't evolve? I think you've got me all wrong, but that's ok. I find it abhorrent that women are forced to or feel forced to do this. I wish this were not the case, but I think if you were to do a survey on women they would say that they do these sorts of things to reduce their own risk. I pray for and work towards a world where this is not the case, but we are not there yet. When women feel that they are just as safe as men are and that they are extremely unlikely to be sexually assaulted I will be satisfied with the progress. On a related note, we were talking about victim blaming previously. A perspective I have heard is that victim blaming is when you give someone advice on how to avoid sexual assault after the fact, whereas it is not when you are giving them advice before the fact. I think my advice above falls into the second camp since there is no particular instance I'm talking about.
unfortunately a lot of scumbags exist to the point where yes you need to educate to the point you do not become a victim. This is a hard reality. Almost every woman I have met as had to deal with being harassed when they wanted to be left alone. -_-
On June 30 2020 12:08 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +1. Report the offender to the relevant authorities, including the police, to reduce the chances of repeat behaviour This is often a source of more trauma and 0 resolution.
True because many times over this is the last thing they want coming out in public. More often than not it becomes an attack on their character if it goes to court.
I view harassment no different than racism. If you see shit going down speak up or try to defuse the situation even if it is a total stranger. Be a leader the more people in it together the better we can create safe environments for others.
On June 30 2020 10:45 NewSunshine wrote:
Also, telling victims that they need to be better educated so they can stop being victims, when it's the fault of a predator going well out of their way to assault them in the first place, is hugely disrespectful, because it abdicates the predators of all responsibility for their repugnant behavior, and places it instead on the people who are already being subject to lifelong emotional and physical trauma that is not of their doing or choosing. It's absolutely insane to me to suggest that it's all hunky dorey to say the victims need to do more. Bullshit.
Eliminating risks is important. Is it really any different than sex ed? I think not.
You cannot teach a person to be decent. A prick will still be a prick. Rather than learn from experience sometimes you have to give people some street smarts at the same token.
You will never eliminate sexual predators so it's best to learn how to deal with them.
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I find the discussion about what survivors could do better disturbing. I understand the desire to acknowledge any potential avenue of progress, but it's one of those "I'm pretty sure this has come up in the hundreds of years women have been dealing with this". things.
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On June 30 2020 12:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm at a loss for realistic solutions and starting to think facetiously about just exempting women from murdering men and eliminating men's right to self defense against women being more practical than forming some bs esports HR that will have all the same problems of the rest of the gaming industry/related communities.
It's a generational problem that usually changes each time a new generation comes around, except we are trying to find a solution right now. It's the same with racism, and climate change, we are trying to find solutions now, but even if you teach kids through TV to treat women as fellow humans, still the old guys are too old to change, they are too old to stop being racist POSs and too old to start caring about the environment and changing their SUVs for electric cars. The government has to force their hand, but the government is composed mostly of old people.
edit: whoops you deleted your post?
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On June 30 2020 12:55 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 12:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm at a loss for realistic solutions and starting to think facetiously about just exempting women from murdering men and eliminating men's right to self defense against women being more practical than forming some bs esports HR that will have all the same problems of the rest of the gaming industry/related communities. It's a generational problem that usually changes each time a new generation comes around, except we are trying to find a solution right now. It's the same with racism, and climate change, we are trying to find solutions now, but even if you teach kids through TV to treat women as fellow humans, still the old guys are too old to change, they are too old to stop being racist POSs and too old to start caring about the environment and changing their SUVs for electric cars. The government has to force their hand, but the government is composed mostly of old people. edit: whoops you deleted your post?
For good reason, holy shit.
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On June 30 2020 12:55 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 12:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm at a loss for realistic solutions and starting to think facetiously about just exempting women from murdering men and eliminating men's right to self defense against women being more practical than forming some bs esports HR that will have all the same problems of the rest of the gaming industry/related communities. It's a generational problem that usually changes each time a new generation comes around, except we are trying to find a solution right now. It's the same with racism, and climate change, we are trying to find solutions now, but even if you teach kids through TV to treat women as fellow humans, still the old guys are too old to change, they are too old to stop being racist POSs and too old to start caring about the environment and changing their SUVs for electric cars. The government has to force their hand, but the government is composed mostly of old people.
I took that out in case people took it literally despite the "facetiously" but yeah. Part of it is because we're trying to police and punish because we only understand/believe in a carceral and punitive system for behavior modification. I don't actually support any of that stuff or disposability for the accused.
But if I had to choose, self-defense training would be after the purge clause on my list of bad ideas worth consideration.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 30 2020 12:57 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 12:55 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 30 2020 12:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm at a loss for realistic solutions and starting to think facetiously about just exempting women from murdering men and eliminating men's right to self defense against women being more practical than forming some bs esports HR that will have all the same problems of the rest of the gaming industry/related communities. It's a generational problem that usually changes each time a new generation comes around, except we are trying to find a solution right now. It's the same with racism, and climate change, we are trying to find solutions now, but even if you teach kids through TV to treat women as fellow humans, still the old guys are too old to change, they are too old to stop being racist POSs and too old to start caring about the environment and changing their SUVs for electric cars. The government has to force their hand, but the government is composed mostly of old people. edit: whoops you deleted your post? For good reason, holy shit. Yeah, I was thinking of you when I worried about someone taking it literally. fwiw if you wanted to treat it literally you'd have to make it obvious that it would result in more death and suffering than the status quo before it was actually contextually not the 'lesser evil'.
To spell it out, it isn't a literal idea I'd ever advocate, hence denoting it as not literal.
EDIT: I just want to make extra sure people understand this is what I was getting at.
On June 30 2020 14:57 ProBell wrote:
The amount of rapes happening in the US and around the world, it's astonishing. ... what's even more amazing is how roughly 70% or even as high as ~90% don't report it to the police or friends/family.
That feeling of being aghast at the facetious proposal is how we should feel all the time because despite our intuition it's not absurd to suggest it wouldn't be a net-net increase in violence. That's how horrific the status quo currently is and how seemingly not worried about it we are as a society.
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Mods, maybe close thread? Im following since page one, it feels we are starting over again...
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On June 30 2020 14:36 Lambertus wrote:
Mods, maybe close thread? Im following since page one, it feels we are starting over again...
I'm curious how thoroughly we explored Avilo's time here and what info was known here and how the community (here) and he parted ways.
Seems like there's some lessons in that for all of us that we haven't dug into imo.
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The amount of rapes happening in the US and around the world, it's astonishing. Just in human DNA. what's even more amazing is how roughly 70% or even as high as ~90% don't report it to the police or friends/family.
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On June 30 2020 14:57 ProBell wrote:
The amount of rapes happening in the US and around the world, it's astonishing. Just in human DNA. what's even more amazing is how roughly 70% or even as high as ~90% don't report it to the police or friends/family.
if it was in human DNA then:
1) There would be a constant amount of rapes, it rather seems like this is changing over time and in different places, contexts and times.
2) Women would do it just as much as men.
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On June 30 2020 09:38 Wombat_NI wrote:
ESports still hasn’t fully matured into a real regulated, professionalised industry. There’s a lot of freelance/contractor work, a lot of reliance on the unpaid or lowly paid work of very young people, and there’s quite a insular and informal system of networking between insiders and outsiders. [...]
That is a really, really bad set of conditions to have people with manipulative, or sexually abusive tendencies to be working within.
That's not really an argument. Sexual harassment, discrimination and exploitation can only happen whenever there are asymmetrical relationships in place. A regular work place, regardless if you look at "real" sports, work environments, institutions or even within sub-groups and sub-scenes there naturally will be asymmetrical roles: student<>teacher, employer<>employee or team captian vs team member for instance. Pinning it only to professional falls short and it distracts from adressing the problems.
It's a complicated topic, as these asymmetrical structures are needed for any organization to function properly or because they are created naturally. There needs someone to call the shots, there always will be key persons that are looked up to for random reasons and there will always be positions that due to their function have power over others (e.g. teachers need to have the power to evaluate their students). The surrounding environment determines partly how much asymmetry is enough, where the limits are and how an excess of asymmetry is sanctioned. Given that the surrounding environment is coming both from the organization and the "society" around it makes it difficult for me to have a clear cut opinion on the matter at hand - at least for some of the cases. In my eyes almost all of what was told in the OP isn't something that is only attached to video gaming.
Almost all of the cases described happened in isolated situations, where no third party could have seen that. That sucks for the recipients and it's unfair they have to speak up to receive any form of justice, yet speaking up is a must. It also means that there is no necessary need to put any system of prevention in place, or to reform the system as a whole, because even in ideal circumstances the system can't possibly prevent abuse in every single case. At this point all I, as an ordinary user, can offer is sympathy with the abused and harassed. Listening with an open mind to reports seems like a good place to start, hopefully this makes it a little easier to come forward.
In addition being somewhat reflected about the own conduct goes a long way. However, that goes in another direction as well. When looking at WHO speaks about WHAT, it seems often that a outspoken minority of posters feel the urge to form opinions for the abused and exploited, as well as for the abusers and exploiting parties. Maybe because it seems reasonable to do one better than the last poster, just to signal that you're even more passionate than anybody else, even though nobody can buy anything with that kind of passion.
It feels as if a somewhat dialed down tone, as hard as it is for highly emotional topics, would help out a lot. For instance, I see no way in which a witch hunt with pitch forks (e.g. linking clear names to video game akas) solves the situation. Those offenders do need professional help if they are ever to change their behaviour. Taking away the opportunity to redeem themselves (especially outside of the community) might put fuel to the fire, driving them towards self-destroying behaviour and/or strengthening their views, as they themselves suddenly see themselves as victims. There are solid reasons that the justice system has both punishment and redemption ideas.
Mind you, this doesn't mean I don't want to see especially see the attempted rape case punished severely by the justice systems. It also doesn't mean I'd welcome a person like Rapid back, before he gave clear signals that he takes steps to reform himself outside of the games he promotes.
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I see lots of talk about what other ppl should be doing.
I see little or no talk about what we should be doing.
Here's what we should be doing: (and we can start right now):
Next time someone in your proximity makes a sexually objectifying remark, tell them it's not OK.
And I'm not talking about some random person on the internet. I'm talking about the person you're right beside, watching a show or being at the club with. Your friends.
It's going to be uncomfortable, but If you truly want to do something, this is what it takes. We have to change.
(First post. Yay! *waves* )
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EPT
