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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 30 2020 15:04 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 14:57 ProBell wrote:
The amount of rapes happening in the US and around the world, it's astonishing. Just in human DNA. what's even more amazing is how roughly 70% or even as high as ~90% don't report it to the police or friends/family. if it was in human DNA then: 1) There would be a constant amount of rapes, it rather seems like this is changing over time and in different places, contexts and times. 2) Women would do it just as much as men.
Being part of DNA doesnt exclude the possibility that culture or societal organization can influance the rates.
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On June 30 2020 20:31 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 15:04 Heartland wrote:On June 30 2020 14:57 ProBell wrote:
The amount of rapes happening in the US and around the world, it's astonishing. Just in human DNA. what's even more amazing is how roughly 70% or even as high as ~90% don't report it to the police or friends/family. if it was in human DNA then: 1) There would be a constant amount of rapes, it rather seems like this is changing over time and in different places, contexts and times. 2) Women would do it just as much as men. Being part of DNA doesnt exclude the possibility that culture or societal organization can influance the rates.
It begs the question, then, to what extent? This is always the ad hoc hypothesis that the biological perspective takes. "Oh yeah, it's also social!" But how much? 10%? 52.58%? Does it even mean anything to try to state it in numbers like that, and more importantly, isn't it just a sort of metaphysical belief that people who claim this are desperately trying to hang on to by way of ad hoc hypothezising?
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On June 30 2020 12:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
I find the discussion about what survivors could do better disturbing. I understand the desire to acknowledge any potential avenue of progress, but it's one of those "I'm pretty sure this has come up in the hundreds of years women have been dealing with this". things.
Sex ed in most countries is not even near close to where it needs to be. So as much as people have been dealing with these issues for eons it does beg the question why so little progress has been made and the easy thing to say is religion as to what is and not accepted.
Even my country it's hard to get same sex marriage and relationships in the education and that says a lot.
Same idea with self defense, which I think should be taught as part of physical education so people can protect themselves no matter what gender or sexual preference they have i.e. binary.
Stop thinking as this being 'the solution' and view it as one means of educating people about different scenarios. At the same time we don't want to teach people that all people are bad.
I cannot tell you how many women I have met you have been roofied or thought they have been roofied and I live in a country that is supposedly relatively safe or not racist, which is the biggest load of bullshit ever.
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arguing against also educating potential victims is kind of the same as saying you shouldn't need to wear a seatbelt, should just educate people not to drunk drive and people to drive safely
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On June 30 2020 22:14 ROOTFayth wrote:
arguing against also educating potential victims is kind of the same as saying you shouldn't need to wear a seatbelt, should just educate people not to drunk drive and people to drive safely
Well said. Just because it’s not your fault doesn’t mean it won’t happen to you.
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Northern Ireland25347 Posts
On June 30 2020 22:14 ROOTFayth wrote:
arguing against also educating potential victims is kind of the same as saying you shouldn't need to wear a seatbelt, should just educate people not to drunk drive and people to drive safely
Nobody’s arguing against education in this sphere far as I can tell, we’re arguing that its not THE solution if it’s entirely stuck on the victim’s shoulders.
You can easily improve things quite a bit with a much more thorough sex ed/sex and relationships ed.
It’s paywalled or Id link the podcast, was a rather long form discussion framed around a big rape trial involving sports stars here (rugby players, some went to my school). Everyone had an opinion on the case.
Anyway the host, a former footballer who now is a therapist and who goes into schools delivering the kind of sex ed I’m referring to, and a woman who if memory serves does something similar around issues of sex and result.
Some takeaways from memory that I feel are pertinent here;
1. The 15-18 year old boys the host dealt with were given various scenarios and to discuss if they were improper or wrong or not. They generally gave the ‘wrong’ answers, but upon peer discussion corrected eventually, even before the host interjected. Not only did they not realise certain things were wrong, they ended up correcting this themselves merely from being in an environment where they actually had to think and discuss this.
2. Young women should be aware of what they’re getting into and make decisions accordingly. As per this discussion it was more about ‘groupie culture’ and sports stars as it sprouted from a court case. Some people are psychologically able to deal with (the reasonable) likelihood of being treated like a piece of meat by a celebrity they hook up with, some people are absolutely not. Sure it’s a bit bleak but young women should be aware of those things going in.
There’s much more besides. Ultimately you do need some life experience as well but education and culture can fill in a lot of the gaps, hell of a lot better than we’ve done previously. Recognising and respecting boundaries, knowing what manipulative or controlling behaviour looks like both on the giving and receiving end etc.
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Northern Ireland25347 Posts
On June 30 2020 22:14 ROOTFayth wrote:
arguing against also educating potential victims is kind of the same as saying you shouldn't need to wear a seatbelt, should just educate people not to drunk drive and people to drive safely
That’s a pertinent example as incidences of drunk driving have hugely declined over the last decades, from something that was common and socially acceptable, to something that largely isn’t at all.
Through campaigns and education almost exclusively, plus a media in film and television that also treats it differently now.
Friends will take your keys now if you’ve overdone the drinking and one will hand it over pretty willingly. Or people will take you to absolute task if you’ve driven drunk. Which is a big cultural shift from my parent’s generation.
Seatbelts are still a sensible precaution, even so they won’t protect you from every crash that someone else causes, and ideally they’re a precaution that isn’t needed at all because drunk driving has been driven down by a conscious societal effort.
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On June 30 2020 22:14 ROOTFayth wrote:
arguing against also educating potential victims is kind of the same as saying you shouldn't need to wear a seatbelt, should just educate people not to drunk drive and people to drive safely
Women are very well educated and tend to spend their lives watching out for being raped. Women never walk alone at night, never accept drinks from strangers, etc. They already try incredibly hard to avoid sexual assault, lots of women even carry pepper spray or sharp objects on their keychains in places where those are legal.
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Northern Ireland25347 Posts
On June 30 2020 16:26 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 09:38 Wombat_NI wrote:
ESports still hasn’t fully matured into a real regulated, professionalised industry. There’s a lot of freelance/contractor work, a lot of reliance on the unpaid or lowly paid work of very young people, and there’s quite a insular and informal system of networking between insiders and outsiders. [...]
That is a really, really bad set of conditions to have people with manipulative, or sexually abusive tendencies to be working within.
That's not really an argument. Sexual harassment, discrimination and exploitation can only happen whenever there are asymmetrical relationships in place. A regular work place, regardless if you look at "real" sports, work environments, institutions or even within sub-groups and sub-scenes there naturally will be asymmetrical roles: student<>teacher, employer<>employee or team captian vs team member for instance. Pinning it only to professional falls short and it distracts from adressing the problems. It's a complicated topic, as these asymmetrical structures are needed for any organization to function properly or because they are created naturally. There needs someone to call the shots, there always will be key persons that are looked up to for random reasons and there will always be positions that due to their function have power over others (e.g. teachers need to have the power to evaluate their students). The surrounding environment determines partly how much asymmetry is enough, where the limits are and how an excess of asymmetry is sanctioned. Given that the surrounding environment is coming both from the organization and the "society" around it makes it difficult for me to have a clear cut opinion on the matter at hand - at least for some of the cases. In my eyes almost all of what was told in the OP isn't something that is only attached to video gaming. Almost all of the cases described happened in isolated situations, where no third party could have seen that. That sucks for the recipients and it's unfair they have to speak up to receive any form of justice, yet speaking up is a must. It also means that there is no necessary need to put any system of prevention in place, or to reform the system as a whole, because even in ideal circumstances the system can't possibly prevent abuse in every single case. At this point all I, as an ordinary user, can offer is sympathy with the abused and harassed. Listening with an open mind to reports seems like a good place to start, hopefully this makes it a little easier to come forward. In addition being somewhat reflected about the own conduct goes a long way. However, that goes in another direction as well. When looking at WHO speaks about WHAT, it seems often that a outspoken minority of posters feel the urge to form opinions for the abused and exploited, as well as for the abusers and exploiting parties. Maybe because it seems reasonable to do one better than the last poster, just to signal that you're even more passionate than anybody else, even though nobody can buy anything with that kind of passion. It feels as if a somewhat dialed down tone, as hard as it is for highly emotional topics, would help out a lot. For instance, I see no way in which a witch hunt with pitch forks (e.g. linking clear names to video game akas) solves the situation. Those offenders do need professional help if they are ever to change their behaviour. Taking away the opportunity to redeem themselves (especially outside of the community) might put fuel to the fire, driving them towards self-destroying behaviour and/or strengthening their views, as they themselves suddenly see themselves as victims. There are solid reasons that the justice system has both punishment and redemption ideas. Mind you, this doesn't mean I don't want to see especially see the attempted rape case punished severely by the justice systems. It also doesn't mean I'd welcome a person like Rapid back, before he gave clear signals that he takes steps to reform himself outside of the games he promotes.
You are correct, not so much an argument as a series of observations. More threw them in there as a counter to ‘just report things’, because who do you report them to in that environment? Indeed the much worse issues we’re seeing in DotA some of these incidents were indeed reported. While indeed eSports isn’t separate from wider society in this regard, it is also lagging behind many other environments in how it self-polices to mitigate some of these potential issues.
But yes I do agree with what you’re saying here, for the most part. I think the TL thread tone is mostly reasonable and fine, from cursory looks at Twitter and Reddit, yes I feel your charges of a race to being the most passionate are in evidence and indeed are counterproductive.
Aside from the exception of Avilo I don’t think people need professional help here, self-reflection and a genuine desire to change can do the trick alone. But if there’s an acceptance of wrongdoing and a desire to change professional help definitely can augment that process. I do hope these individuals can improve and be left to get on with their lives in peace too.
PS any chance of some more guides? Your PvP ones helped me a lot in Wings and I could do with all the help I can get coming back to play Legacy :p
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On June 30 2020 23:24 serendipitous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 22:14 ROOTFayth wrote:
arguing against also educating potential victims is kind of the same as saying you shouldn't need to wear a seatbelt, should just educate people not to drunk drive and people to drive safely Women are very well educated and tend to spend their lives watching out for being raped. Women never walk alone at night, never accept drinks from strangers, etc. They already try incredibly hard to avoid sexual assault, lots of women even carry pepper spray or sharp objects on their keychains in places where those are legal.
Yeah. I was really shocked when talking to some of my female friends about how much stuff that i view as a totally normal thing i just do without thinking is something that they would never, ever dare to do, and have been taught by their parents not to do.
Like just walking home alone slightly drunk at 3 in the morning after a party for an hour or so. That is something i regularly did as a teenager, and actually quite enjoyed. I still enjoy riding my bike to and from places at night (not drunk, though).
And i think that it is utterly disgusting that half the population can not do that because of assholes.
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On July 01 2020 00:27 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 23:24 serendipitous wrote:On June 30 2020 22:14 ROOTFayth wrote:
arguing against also educating potential victims is kind of the same as saying you shouldn't need to wear a seatbelt, should just educate people not to drunk drive and people to drive safely Women are very well educated and tend to spend their lives watching out for being raped. Women never walk alone at night, never accept drinks from strangers, etc. They already try incredibly hard to avoid sexual assault, lots of women even carry pepper spray or sharp objects on their keychains in places where those are legal. Yeah. I was really shocked when talking to some of my female friends about how much stuff that i view as a totally normal thing i just do without thinking is something that they would never, ever dare to do, and have been taught by their parents not to do. Like just walking home alone slightly drunk at 3 in the morning after a party for an hour or so. That is something i regularly did as a teenager, and actually quite enjoyed. I still enjoy riding my bike to and from places at night (not drunk, though).And i think that it is utterly disgusting that half the population can not do that because of assholes.
Just wanted to highlight this. It's incredible how privileged I am as a man, being able to do all of this, when for ~50% of the population it is complete no starter.
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This thread has grown to 62 pages. Has any action been taken against the accused people?
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Yes, Rapid has been disavowed by some organizations, Apollo is looking into Avilo, Redeye stepped down.
The other eSports are all over the place.
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On July 01 2020 02:20 WarSame wrote:
Yes, Rapid has been disavowed by some organizations, Apollo is looking into Avilo, Redeye stepped down.
The other eSports are all over the place.
Looking into?
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The latest reply was on page ~40 or so. On Twitter he mentioned he was going to verify the accusations. I haven't followed up on it since then because it seems like a no-brainer to me to ban Avilo.
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Northern Ireland25347 Posts
On July 01 2020 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2020 02:20 WarSame wrote:
Yes, Rapid has been disavowed by some organizations, Apollo is looking into Avilo, Redeye stepped down.
The other eSports are all over the place. Looking into?
As far as I’m aware Apollo tweeted after being tagged that they were unaware of some of Avilo’s conduct and were looking into it re his participation in ESL cups.
Having publicly made it known that he’s aware of issues being raised, I really can’t see Apollo and ESL not making the move to ban him, now they’ve not got the excuse of being unaware.
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On July 01 2020 03:06 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2020 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2020 02:20 WarSame wrote:
Yes, Rapid has been disavowed by some organizations, Apollo is looking into Avilo, Redeye stepped down.
The other eSports are all over the place. Looking into? As far as I’m aware Apollo tweeted after being tagged that they were unaware of some of Avilo’s conduct and were looking into it re his participation in ESL cups. Having publicly made it known that he’s aware of issues being raised, I really can’t see Apollo and ESL not making the move to ban him, now they’ve not got the excuse of being unaware.
Just browsing some of his posts about women here was more than enough for me, not sure how people (including Apollo) let him get to where Apollo needed to look into it. That he hasn't already been canned is a bad look imo.
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There's tons of players in each tournament. I doubt they do a whole lot of background checking each player involved. We all knew Avilo wasn't a great person before but I imagine most of us just assumed he was very BM.
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On July 01 2020 03:20 WarSame wrote:
There's tons of players in each tournament. I doubt they do a whole lot of background checking each player involved. We all knew Avilo wasn't a great person before but I imagine most of us just assumed he was very BM.
Surely TL and others have sent Apollo more than enough to have him kicked already, if we grant folks the level of ignorance to not know Avilo shouldn't be allowed in their events in the first place, he has to know enough by now.
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You need to have a process for these things or else I think you can end up in a weird legal situation. See Sports leagues that constantly end up in court over suspensions. I'd be surprised if there was an already existing and fleshed out plan/strategy for dealing with these things. These things can take a bit of time.
Should they have had a plan for something like this? Probably. Do I think they have one? probably not.
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