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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 30 2020 08:46 rekoJ wrote:Show nested quote +
Hopefully schools in the future will teach girls in sexual education not to allow their male "friends" who are known alcoholics to sleep in their beds if they want to reduce incidences of unwanted flirting, harassment or worse.
User was warned for this post
Why always wanting the victim and not the culprit to behave better. Ah maybe because the culprit would still want the freedom of being able to be drunk and harass... Good point. Teaching the guys in sexual education at school to not become alcoholics and sexually harass women seems really unfair. Poor little boys... I'm not the original poster of the quoted comment, but I'll chime in anyway. Of course we should teach people not to be creeps. Of course we should teach people not to rape. Of course we should teach people to not be shitstains on humanity's underwear.
The problem is, no matter how much you try to teach people this, there will always be assholes. There will be poorly adjusted people, people who learned from other assholes, people who think the rules don't apply to them. It would be complete folly to try to get rid of all of them, it's never going to happen.
Teaching people how to deal with those people isn't victim blaming, nor is it saying that it's OK to be an asshole. It's a matter of making sure people can protect themselves, so that even if they encounter one of them they don't end up a victim. The ideal situation would be to do both:
Don't be a dickhead, and here is how you deal with someone if they are a dickhead.
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On June 30 2020 08:46 rekoJ wrote:Show nested quote +
Hopefully schools in the future will teach girls in sexual education not to allow their male "friends" who are known alcoholics to sleep in their beds if they want to reduce incidences of unwanted flirting, harassment or worse.
User was warned for this post
Teaching the guys in sexual education at school to not become alcoholics and sexually harass women [...]
I agree with this too. I just think educating girls is more effective to reduce these incidences.
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Women already worry about it plenty, trust. Just about every woman I know has been assaulted at some point in their life, and a disturbing number of them at an age well before any kind of "education" could come around. That's why the default interpretation to "the woman should've known better and prepared more" is that it's victim blaming. It usually is. When you have an almost endemic problem of sexual assault by men on women, the ultimate answer is to get men to stop assaulting women. That's it. When the problem consists of 99% men not controlling themselves and assaulting women when they should know better, and 1% women not doing enough to not get assaulted, you don't focus on the 1 percent.
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Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On June 30 2020 08:40 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 04:34 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 29 2020 04:01 tskarzyn wrote:
Understand the need for a safe space, but if we can't debate this topic IRL without serious consequences, can't debate it online under a real ID, and can't even debate it in a gaming forum, when are we going to have the debate? e Are we just going to indiscriminately destroy people for any offense and equate the very serious trauma of domestic abuse with the sort of thing that teenagers used to be equipped to deal with on their own? You don't help someone by infantalizing them. What’s to debate here though? Specifically the past point anyway. If teenagers were previously equipped to deal with shitty behaviour because that was the culture of the time, that’s not a plus point to the teens of yesteryear it’s a damning indictment about historical cultural norms. Accepting awful behaviour for whatever reason does not build character or resilience. The vast majority of people I know with anxiety problems were either bullied at school or had an abusive partner. Anyway that aside, yes there should be limits in a purge of bad behaviour in the community, I can’t speak for others who have previously echoed similar sentiments to myself, my guess is they, like me don’t want people ostracised for a joke that went down badly, or things they said on Twitter as a teenager. The main incidents of discussion being Rapid, TLO and Pengwin’s re coaches in team housed and now Redeye are clearly incidences of alleged behaviour that strays far beyond that and into the land of abuse of various kinds. As a local amateur caster of some 8 years in a scene that loves shock humour, my jokes have all been tolerated because people know me, my sense of humour etc. I regret one joke where I riffed off a girl’s cosplay into a joke and it took her years to say it made her uncomfortable and that she was being singled out for her looks and didn’t feel she belonged with us guys. Which I apologised for and now I’m a bit older with different perspectives absolutely see where she was coming from. That’s absolute small fry compared to these allegations, but even within insignificant local amateur communities women are reluctant to come forward with a grievance involving a community staple. Appreciate the thoughtful response. What is there to debate? Quite a lot, I think. Employer/employee responsibilities are one matter that we probably agree on. Private conversations between adults are another. I don't think it appropriate to send unsolicited DP's, but I also don't think an appropriate response to unwanted online advances is to publicly humiliate and destroy the guilty party. I'd chalk those interactions under the messiness of relations between the sexes. I don't think it is society's job to police every behavior that causes offense. As to the more serious allegations against Redeye, it seems to me that very few people want to hear the other side or wait until we have all the evidence. As far as I know, he was found not guilty of the more serious allegations in court and we've yet to see concrete evidence of some of the lesser allegations. In the current environment, the allegation seems to be evidence enough. Should the alleged guilty party try to defend himself, they've demonstrated a lack of remorse or worse, further traumatized the alleged victim. If they don't mount a defense, they're obviously guilty. Medieval justice at its finest. (If she floats she's a witch.) What value would you place on the presumption of innocence until concrete evidence is provided? At what point will we say some behavior that causes offense is not serious enough to warrant a public execution? Rapid talked about his weener and sent some DP's. Not my bag, but is that *really* sexual harassment when the targets could have blocked his kakao? calls (no idea what that is) at any time? Did they make any attempt at all to deal with the issue in an adult manner before taking the nuclear option? As to your own peccadillos, all I can say is that I'm embarrassed for anyone that was so upset by your comments about someone's costume that they let it affect their emotions for years. It's been ages, but I've heard you cast and don't think you have anything to feel sorry about.
Thanks also for yours, it’s a tricky subject to negotiate with any kind of alacrity.
ESports still hasn’t fully matured into a real regulated, professionalised industry. There’s a lot of freelance/contractor work, a lot of reliance on the unpaid or lowly paid work of very young people, and there’s quite a insular and informal system of networking between insiders and outsiders.
That is a really, really bad set of conditions to have people with manipulative, or sexually abusive tendencies to be working within.
There is a messiness in relations between the sexes, arguably one that is getting further complicated by the prevalence of pornography exposure that is way more extreme than even when I was a teen.
Alas the podcast is paywalled or I’d link it, these relations are complicated and do go both ways, there is an undue focus on poor male behaviour and yes, education in this regard should address gender specific problems and how they intersect.
A better understanding of consent and boundaries, but crucially also when to asset when your boundaries are crossed is something important for both men and women to understand, in general.
With Rapid specifically based on what I’ve read these women did raise objections before he tried manipulative tactics to get around those objections. Which is to me distinct from a case where a guy genuinely thought things were hunky dory only for after the fact to be called abusive or a harasser.
With Redeye I think he’s guilty of the eSports centric charges against him, reading between various lines, but equally I don’t think revealing the familial case against him was either necessary, nor fair in this instance.
I think enough industry insiders knew there was validity there and that they’ve protected him that they feared further revelations would implicate them and cause a wider scandal, so either pressured Redeye to remove himself now, or that Redeye decided to himself for the wider good of the industry. For all the allegations I don’t think anyone can cast doubt that Redeye deeply cares about eSports, indeed that passion may have been a contributory factor to his poor behaviour.
I didn’t particularly like his statement either. A lot of people seemed to, as I previously said if it was a couple of incidents over his many years in eSports coming out he could have temporarily withdrawn, said he was getting help for anger issues and returned, he’s a popular individual. Based upon responses on Reddit and elsewhere to this I think based on what we know that was a totally viable option.
That he didn’t take that route says there’s a lot more that hasn’t yet come out, that would be much more damning in its volume.
As per my peccadillos, they were prompted by my own reflection years later and I asked if I’d overstepped the mark, and she felt I had and explained why, but also appreciated that I’d even considered asking in the first place. Wasn’t something she’d stewed on for years of anything.
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Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On June 30 2020 09:20 JohnDelaney wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 08:46 rekoJ wrote:
Hopefully schools in the future will teach girls in sexual education not to allow their male "friends" who are known alcoholics to sleep in their beds if they want to reduce incidences of unwanted flirting, harassment or worse.
User was warned for this post
Teaching the guys in sexual education at school to not become alcoholics and sexually harass women [...] I agree with this too. I just think educating girls is more effective to reduce these incidences.
In what sense is it more effective?
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On June 30 2020 09:27 NewSunshine wrote:
Women already worry about it plenty, trust. Just about every woman I know has been assaulted at some point in their life, and a disturbing number of them at an age well before any kind of "education" could come around. That's why the default interpretation to "the woman should've known better and prepared more" is that it's victim blaming. It usually is. When you have an almost endemic problem of sexual assault by men on women, the ultimate answer is to get men to stop assaulting women. That's it. When the problem consists of 99% men not controlling themselves and assaulting women when they should know better, and 1% women not doing enough to not get assaulted, you don't focus on the 1 percent.
It's not "the woman should've known better", but the education system should've taught them to cut alcoholics et al. out of their lives. The woman is still a victim, and the education system (among other things) needs to be reformed to address this. My point is it's not enough to pass more punitive laws and do social media movements, we need to the help of improved schooling too.
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On June 30 2020 09:27 NewSunshine wrote:
Women already worry about it plenty, trust. Just about every woman I know has been assaulted at some point in their life, and a disturbing number of them at an age well before any kind of "education" could come around. That's why the default interpretation to "the woman should've known better and prepared more" is that it's victim blaming. It usually is. When you have an almost endemic problem of sexual assault by men on women, the ultimate answer is to get men to stop assaulting women. That's it. When the problem consists of 99% men not controlling themselves and assaulting women when they should know better, and 1% women not doing enough to not get assaulted, you don't focus on the 1 percent.
it's not going to happen, you can't stop people from doing bad things, they know they're doing bad things, you can just educate the women on risk assessment and then they make their decisions from there
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On June 30 2020 09:42 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 09:20 JohnDelaney wrote:On June 30 2020 08:46 rekoJ wrote:
Hopefully schools in the future will teach girls in sexual education not to allow their male "friends" who are known alcoholics to sleep in their beds if they want to reduce incidences of unwanted flirting, harassment or worse.
User was warned for this post
Teaching the guys in sexual education at school to not become alcoholics and sexually harass women [...] I agree with this too. I just think educating girls is more effective to reduce these incidences. In what sense is it more effective?
Based on the levels of female education being inversely proportional to fertility rates, primarily from studies in Indian villages, which also showed that educational attainment of males had no effect on fertility rates.
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I don't see how you can take a study on birth rates and extract information it to things like sexual assault and harassment. They seem like two different things.
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On June 30 2020 09:49 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 09:27 NewSunshine wrote:
Women already worry about it plenty, trust. Just about every woman I know has been assaulted at some point in their life, and a disturbing number of them at an age well before any kind of "education" could come around. That's why the default interpretation to "the woman should've known better and prepared more" is that it's victim blaming. It usually is. When you have an almost endemic problem of sexual assault by men on women, the ultimate answer is to get men to stop assaulting women. That's it. When the problem consists of 99% men not controlling themselves and assaulting women when they should know better, and 1% women not doing enough to not get assaulted, you don't focus on the 1 percent. it's not going to happen, you can't stop people from doing bad things, they know they're doing bad things, you can just educate the women on risk assessment and then they make their decisions from there
You can stop most people from doing bad things. Just because you can't stop them all doesn't mean you don't bother. The onus for men not assaulting women should very much be on the men doing the assaulting.
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On June 30 2020 10:19 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I don't see how you can take a study on birth rates and extract information it to things like sexual assault and harassment. They seem like two different things.
On June 30 2020 10:24 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 09:56 JohnDelaney wrote:On June 30 2020 09:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 30 2020 09:20 JohnDelaney wrote:On June 30 2020 08:46 rekoJ wrote:
Hopefully schools in the future will teach girls in sexual education not to allow their male "friends" who are known alcoholics to sleep in their beds if they want to reduce incidences of unwanted flirting, harassment or worse.
User was warned for this post
Teaching the guys in sexual education at school to not become alcoholics and sexually harass women [...] I agree with this too. I just think educating girls is more effective to reduce these incidences. In what sense is it more effective? Based on the levels of female education being inversely proportional to fertility rates, primarily from studies in Indian villages, which also showed that educational attainment of males had no effect on fertility rates. Those too things are completely unrelated. The birth rates drop because of learning about birth control. It has absolutely nothing to do with sexual harassment or rape.
Is your argument that schooling, specifically with sexual education and risk assessment for females, should not be reformed and that it would be ineffective to reduce these incidences of harassment such as the one yvonnie went through?
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On June 30 2020 10:25 JohnDelaney wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 10:19 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I don't see how you can take a study on birth rates and extract information it to things like sexual assault and harassment. They seem like two different things.
Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 10:24 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2020 09:56 JohnDelaney wrote:On June 30 2020 09:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 30 2020 09:20 JohnDelaney wrote:On June 30 2020 08:46 rekoJ wrote:
Hopefully schools in the future will teach girls in sexual education not to allow their male "friends" who are known alcoholics to sleep in their beds if they want to reduce incidences of unwanted flirting, harassment or worse.
User was warned for this post
Teaching the guys in sexual education at school to not become alcoholics and sexually harass women [...] I agree with this too. I just think educating girls is more effective to reduce these incidences. In what sense is it more effective? Based on the levels of female education being inversely proportional to fertility rates, primarily from studies in Indian villages, which also showed that educational attainment of males had no effect on fertility rates. Those too things are completely unrelated. The birth rates drop because of learning about birth control. It has absolutely nothing to do with sexual harassment or rape. Is your argument that schooling, specifically with sexual education and risk assessment for females, should not be reformed and that it would be ineffective to reduce these incidences of harassment such as the one yvonnie went through?
What do you say to women who were raped or assaulted before they were old enough to ever receive any such education? To respond to a previous post, what of women who don't have the luxury of being able to cut an alcoholic out of their lives? What of women who were assaulted by someone who had the compulsion to do so independent of alcoholism?
There's a common thread in every one of those scenarios. It's a man (or person, generally) who should've known better. And sure, the answer may still lie in better social programs for all. But it's disrespectful to the people that get assaulted, and what they have to live with, to suggest that the key is to educate victims more.
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On June 30 2020 10:23 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 09:49 ROOTFayth wrote:On June 30 2020 09:27 NewSunshine wrote:
Women already worry about it plenty, trust. Just about every woman I know has been assaulted at some point in their life, and a disturbing number of them at an age well before any kind of "education" could come around. That's why the default interpretation to "the woman should've known better and prepared more" is that it's victim blaming. It usually is. When you have an almost endemic problem of sexual assault by men on women, the ultimate answer is to get men to stop assaulting women. That's it. When the problem consists of 99% men not controlling themselves and assaulting women when they should know better, and 1% women not doing enough to not get assaulted, you don't focus on the 1 percent. it's not going to happen, you can't stop people from doing bad things, they know they're doing bad things, you can just educate the women on risk assessment and then they make their decisions from there You can stop most people from doing bad things. Just because you can't stop them all doesn't mean you don't bother. The onus for men not assaulting women should very much be on the men doing the assaulting.
I mean it just feels like you're saying that men who act like this have no idea that what they're doing is wrong, that they have never been told they shouldn't commit sexual assault or rape
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On June 30 2020 10:31 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 10:25 JohnDelaney wrote:On June 30 2020 10:19 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I don't see how you can take a study on birth rates and extract information it to things like sexual assault and harassment. They seem like two different things.
On June 30 2020 10:24 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2020 09:56 JohnDelaney wrote:On June 30 2020 09:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 30 2020 09:20 JohnDelaney wrote:On June 30 2020 08:46 rekoJ wrote:
Hopefully schools in the future will teach girls in sexual education not to allow their male "friends" who are known alcoholics to sleep in their beds if they want to reduce incidences of unwanted flirting, harassment or worse.
User was warned for this post
Teaching the guys in sexual education at school to not become alcoholics and sexually harass women [...] I agree with this too. I just think educating girls is more effective to reduce these incidences. In what sense is it more effective? Based on the levels of female education being inversely proportional to fertility rates, primarily from studies in Indian villages, which also showed that educational attainment of males had no effect on fertility rates. Those too things are completely unrelated. The birth rates drop because of learning about birth control. It has absolutely nothing to do with sexual harassment or rape. Is your argument that schooling, specifically with sexual education and risk assessment for females, should not be reformed and that it would be ineffective to reduce these incidences of harassment such as the one yvonnie went through? What do you say to women who were raped or assaulted before they were old enough to ever receive any such education? What of women who don't have the luxury of being able to cut an alcoholic out of their lives? What of women who were assaulted by someone who had the compulsion to do so independent of alcoholism? There's a common thread in every one of those scenarios. And sure, the answer may still lie in better social programs for all. But it's disrespectful to the people that get assaulted, and what they have to live with, to suggest that the key is to educate victims more.
I fail to understand how this is disrespectful, we could make models or something, it's just maths? also those two aren't mutually exclusive, we can educate people to be both respectful AND also prevention
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On June 30 2020 10:33 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 10:23 NewSunshine wrote:On June 30 2020 09:49 ROOTFayth wrote:On June 30 2020 09:27 NewSunshine wrote:
Women already worry about it plenty, trust. Just about every woman I know has been assaulted at some point in their life, and a disturbing number of them at an age well before any kind of "education" could come around. That's why the default interpretation to "the woman should've known better and prepared more" is that it's victim blaming. It usually is. When you have an almost endemic problem of sexual assault by men on women, the ultimate answer is to get men to stop assaulting women. That's it. When the problem consists of 99% men not controlling themselves and assaulting women when they should know better, and 1% women not doing enough to not get assaulted, you don't focus on the 1 percent. it's not going to happen, you can't stop people from doing bad things, they know they're doing bad things, you can just educate the women on risk assessment and then they make their decisions from there You can stop most people from doing bad things. Just because you can't stop them all doesn't mean you don't bother. The onus for men not assaulting women should very much be on the men doing the assaulting. I mean it just feels like you're saying that men who act like this have no idea that what they're doing is wrong, that they have never been told they shouldn't commit sexual assault or rape
Not just no idea that it was wrong, but raised in an extremely toxic conception of masculinity that tells them it's right. In short, yes.
On June 30 2020 10:35 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 10:31 NewSunshine wrote:On June 30 2020 10:25 JohnDelaney wrote:On June 30 2020 10:19 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I don't see how you can take a study on birth rates and extract information it to things like sexual assault and harassment. They seem like two different things.
On June 30 2020 10:24 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2020 09:56 JohnDelaney wrote:On June 30 2020 09:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 30 2020 09:20 JohnDelaney wrote:On June 30 2020 08:46 rekoJ wrote:
Hopefully schools in the future will teach girls in sexual education not to allow their male "friends" who are known alcoholics to sleep in their beds if they want to reduce incidences of unwanted flirting, harassment or worse.
User was warned for this post
Teaching the guys in sexual education at school to not become alcoholics and sexually harass women [...] I agree with this too. I just think educating girls is more effective to reduce these incidences. In what sense is it more effective? Based on the levels of female education being inversely proportional to fertility rates, primarily from studies in Indian villages, which also showed that educational attainment of males had no effect on fertility rates. Those too things are completely unrelated. The birth rates drop because of learning about birth control. It has absolutely nothing to do with sexual harassment or rape. Is your argument that schooling, specifically with sexual education and risk assessment for females, should not be reformed and that it would be ineffective to reduce these incidences of harassment such as the one yvonnie went through? What do you say to women who were raped or assaulted before they were old enough to ever receive any such education? What of women who don't have the luxury of being able to cut an alcoholic out of their lives? What of women who were assaulted by someone who had the compulsion to do so independent of alcoholism? There's a common thread in every one of those scenarios. And sure, the answer may still lie in better social programs for all. But it's disrespectful to the people that get assaulted, and what they have to live with, to suggest that the key is to educate victims more. I fail to understand how this is disrespectful, we could make models or something, it's just maths? also those two aren't mutually exclusive, we can educate people to be both respectful AND also prevention
I've yet to see someone adequately demonstrate the benefits of emphasizing the victim's responsibility to not be a victim, as weighed against the perpetrator's responsibility as the perpetrator. Why does educating victims even pop up on the radar, compared to getting grown-ass men to not assault people in the first place?
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On June 30 2020 10:31 JimmiC wrote:
Women shouldn't have to be taught how to not get raped, or not get harassed.
Fair enough. In a perfect world I would agree. We will agree to disagree.
On June 30 2020 10:31 NewSunshine wrote:
What do you say to women who were raped or assaulted before they were old enough to ever receive any such education? What of women who don't have the luxury of being able to cut an alcoholic out of their lives? What of women who were assaulted by someone who had the compulsion to do so independent of alcoholism?
The solutions vary for each of those individual instances, and I don't know all of them. Many of those require substantial political reforms.
On June 30 2020 10:31 NewSunshine wrote:
But it's disrespectful to the people that get assaulted, and what they have to live with, to suggest that the key is to educate victims more.
That is your opinion. I do not think coming up with ideas, particularly ones that I think are being missed, to reduce future incidences is disrespectful.
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On June 30 2020 10:40 JohnDelaney wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 10:31 JimmiC wrote:
Women shouldn't have to be taught how to not get raped, or not get harassed. Fair enough. In a perfect world I would agree. We will agree to disagree. Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 10:31 NewSunshine wrote:
What do you say to women who were raped or assaulted before they were old enough to ever receive any such education? What of women who don't have the luxury of being able to cut an alcoholic out of their lives? What of women who were assaulted by someone who had the compulsion to do so independent of alcoholism? The solutions vary for each of those individual instances, and I don't know all of them. Many of those require substantial political reforms. Show nested quote +On June 30 2020 10:31 NewSunshine wrote:
But it's disrespectful to the people that get assaulted, and what they have to live with, to suggest that the key is to educate victims more. That is your opinion. I do not think coming up with ideas, particularly ones that I think are being missed, to reduce future incidences is disrespectful.
Why does there need to be a variety of solutions put in place to make sure all of the responsibility is on the people getting assaulted to not be assaulted, when you can address the one thing that literally every assault has in common?
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Also, telling victims that they need to be better educated so they can stop being victims, when it's the fault of a predator going well out of their way to assault them in the first place, is hugely disrespectful, because it abdicates the predators of all responsibility for their repugnant behavior, and places it instead on the people who are already being subject to lifelong emotional and physical trauma that is not of their doing or choosing. It's absolutely insane to me to suggest that it's all hunky dorey to say the victims need to do more. Bullshit.
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