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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. | ||
TheEmulator
28100 Posts
On June 30 2020 04:59 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: That being said I'm not sure its fair to twitch to suddenly expect them to start investigating all these allegations themselves and deciding what warrants banning. Fair point. Although twitch did say they were going to do this, so I'm really just curious to see the results tbh. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
I'm guessing there is no easy solution to this but it feels a little bit off, feels like revenge | ||
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
On June 30 2020 05:15 TheEmulator wrote: Fair point. Although twitch did say they were going to do this, so I'm really just curious to see the results tbh. yeah that and the fact that twitch makes money off of streamers and do like partnerships and things means they probably do have a responsibility to look into it. I'm very interested to see how the end up going about it definately. Instead of fair maybe I should have said that it's going to be very difficult for twitch to figure out how to go about it as I doubt the people who work there are prepared/set up to do anything like this. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46212 Posts
On June 30 2020 05:16 ROOTFayth wrote: Unsure if I'm alone in this camp but this whole thing happening on the internet feels a bit off, people talk about spreading the love but isn't this just spreading hate, just redirecting all the hate towards the abusers? I'm guessing there is no easy solution to this but it feels a little bit off, feels like revenge What alternative would you propose? | ||
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TheEmulator
28100 Posts
On June 30 2020 05:16 ROOTFayth wrote: Unsure if I'm alone in this camp but this whole thing happening on the internet feels a bit off, people talk about spreading the love but isn't this just spreading hate, just redirecting all the hate towards the abusers? I'm guessing there is no easy solution to this but it feels a little bit off, feels like revenge I think most reasonable people can agree it's not ideal, but when the system that should be handling abuse/harassment isn't good at doing so this becomes the only viable way to really deal with abusers. At the end of the day victims don't come out with their stories for a reason. This movement at least gives people the power to do so. With that being said I think people are 100% taking advantage of this movement. I know some people are going to say "every victim should have a right to speak up", and I definitely agree. However, we're nearing a point where a "victim" may just simply mean someone who might have been slightly inconvenienced or thinks someone is a jerk, when I see real victims that have endured long lasting pain/trauma. It's hard to really compare these situations, and I don't think the minor/borderline cases should be handled in the same way. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
I don't know, I tried thinking about it a little but couldn't find a viable alternative, I was just lost in thoughts thinking whatever happened to forgiveness? like take Avilo for example, I made fun of him always like everybody else, he was probably bullied for so long, obviously how he treated that Atira girl is insanely wrong but aren't we all at least a tiny bit responsible for how he turned out, just a tiny little bit I'm guessing these people didn't really lack education, everybody and their mother knows that rape is wrong, sexual assault is wrong, murder is wrong etc. but to turn out this way you have to have been a victim initially in some capacity anyway I'm rambling here and I'm not sure what the solution is, it just feels like what these people need to get better is the opposite of what a large % of the community is doing to them on social medias | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On June 30 2020 03:14 Timebon3s wrote: I understand why Rapid doesnt say anything and I understand Redeyes response, but that Avilo shit is completely off the rails. He just keeps going. Its like hes really sick in the head, and I dont mean that in a condesenting way. Is he psychotic or something? He doesnt understand that what he is doing is wrong. Yeah, it seems that since some time now, Avilo needs help. Yet he gets rewarded for a crowd-drawing 'villain' role. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46212 Posts
On June 30 2020 05:26 ROOTFayth wrote: I don't know, I tried thinking about it a little but couldn't find a viable alternative, I was just lost in thoughts thinking whatever happened to forgiveness? like take Avilo for example, I made fun of him always like everybody else, he was probably bullied for so long, obviously how he treated that Atira girl is insanely wrong but aren't we all at least a tiny bit responsible for how he turned out, just a tiny little bit I'm guessing these people didn't really lack education, everybody and their mother knows that rape is wrong, sexual assault is wrong, murder is wrong etc. but to turn out this way you have to have been a victim initially in some capacity anyway I'm rambling here and I'm not sure what the solution is, it just feels like what these people need to get better is the opposite of what a large % of the community is doing to them on social medias I think it's particularly difficult for any alternative to happen right now, given that there are no real live events due to coronavirus. I don't mind things being brought up online, through videos, and on social media, because the publicity needs to happen. I care much less about the offender having privacy during this matter, and much more about awful behavior being openly discussed, so that we can stand as a community against harassment and abuse, and so other victims feel more comfortable sharing their stories (because they see and hear these issues being handled). I strongly disagree that the community is to blame for Avilo's abusive behavior, but I do think that the community shares some blame in not addressing the broad scope of harassment and exploitation within the scene, severely or quickly enough. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On June 30 2020 05:26 ROOTFayth wrote: I don't know, I tried thinking about it a little but couldn't find a viable alternative, I was just lost in thoughts thinking whatever happened to forgiveness? like take Avilo for example, I made fun of him always like everybody else, he was probably bullied for so long, obviously how he treated that Atira girl is insanely wrong but aren't we all at least a tiny bit responsible for how he turned out, just a tiny little bit I'm guessing these people didn't really lack education, everybody and their mother knows that rape is wrong, sexual assault is wrong, murder is wrong etc. but to turn out this way you have to have been a victim initially in some capacity anyway I'm rambling here and I'm not sure what the solution is, it just feels like what these people need to get better is the opposite of what a large % of the community is doing to them on social medias I disagree there. People know that dragging a woman into an alley and raping her is wrong, almost unanimously. A large chunk of people have big gaps in understanding where other lines in the sand are with other sexual impropriety, it it harassment or leveraging power or whatever. I don’t hate these people, I hope they can improve and learn over time. I hate the conditions within wider society, but especially within one of my chosen hobbies that have normalised such behaviours for far too long. Unfortunately we don’t have many female voices in here (that I know of), so it’s mostly guys speaking from empathy conversations with the women in our lives and bringing their experiences in here second-hand. What do we lose in purging a lot of this behaviour from the community. Of course that shouldn’t extend to exiling people for making an ill-judged pass at someone, but I don’t believe anyone at least in this thread is advocating anything like that. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
the only person out of the 4 women who thought the guy was way out of line was my sister oh and I asked zerggirl too and she said he seems like a creep, all the others thought he's just awkward at worst, doesn't seem like he ever had any ill intent and then there's a good buddy of mine who was seeing a girl who is fantasizing about actually getting raped, some girls DO want guys to make moves, some guys sometimes are confused and trying their luck and backing out if the girl isn't receptive but then it's too late? it's already sexual assault? finally there is alcohol.... all the stories here on TL seemed to involve people being drunk, maybe banning consumption of alcohol would reduce cases by like 80% or something | ||
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TheEmulator
28100 Posts
On June 30 2020 06:43 ROOTFayth wrote: to be fair judging what is appropriate or not when it comes to the fine line between flirting and sexual harassment is really not that easy, I showed to a bunch of women including my wife, my sister, a good friend and my buddy's wife the story Yvonne posted on twitter https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9tik I think regarding the fed/yvonne situation you probably should have also shared that another girl in their house also came out with a story, and that 4 girls not living in the house came to their house intervention as they also had times of feeling awkward/scared with him. Pokimane also addressed this in her livestream yesterday essentially detailing that he's been lying to and manipulating people about various other things for the past 1-2 years. I think all things considered it's more than fair to say he deserved to be publically outed so that others in the industry know what to expect with him. The Yvonne story in a vacuum is probably borderline, although I don't necessary feel comfortable saying she can't feel the way she feels. I agree if it was only her story keeping quiet would have been a better outcome (although they probably would have kept it quiet in that instance anyway). | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
it really just felt to me either there are missing parts to the story or they're kinda blowing this thing out of proportion, since I'm a white dude who has no history of being abused I'm probably not fit to judge anyway which is why I asked for the opinions of women | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
It is like saying someone into BDSM would consent to being tortured by some rando off the street. | ||
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TT1
Canada10045 Posts
How do we treat the borderline cases? I'm talking about the stuff that starts out as an iffy flirtatious act but could lead to something worse down the line. A lot of it is based on the person's intention but that's impossible to know unless you're in their head. The borderline cases could ruin someones life, does history need to be taken into account? In any case, imo the way to fight against this type of behavior is by building a strong community that holds people accountable. TL for example provides visibility/support, people aren't faceless individuals.. at least that's how it used to be. In a lot of cases shaming someone is enough for them to take the necessary steps to reform, if they care about the community that is. If not, good riddance. I have first hand experience in this regard  . | ||
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JohnDelaney
Ireland73 Posts
On June 30 2020 06:43 ROOTFayth wrote: to be fair judging what is appropriate or not when it comes to the fine line between flirting and sexual harassment is really not that easy, I showed to a bunch of women including my wife, my sister, a good friend and my buddy's wife the story Yvonne posted on twitter https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9tik the only person out of the 4 women who thought the guy was way out of line was my sister oh and I asked zerggirl too and she said he seems like a creep, all the others thought he's just awkward at worst, doesn't seem like he ever had any ill intent and then there's a good buddy of mine who was seeing a girl who is fantasizing about actually getting raped, some girls DO want guys to make moves, some guys sometimes are confused and trying their luck and backing out if the girl isn't receptive but then it's too late? it's already sexual assault? finally there is alcohol.... all the stories here on TL seemed to involve people being drunk, maybe banning consumption of alcohol would reduce cases by like 80% or something Hopefully schools in the future will teach girls in sexual education not to allow their male "friends" who are known alcoholics to sleep in their beds if they want to reduce incidences of unwanted flirting, harassment or worse. User was warned for this post | ||
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farvacola
United States18866 Posts
On June 30 2020 08:09 JohnDelaney wrote: Hopefully schools in the future will teach girls in sexual education not to allow their male "friends" who are known alcoholics to sleep in their beds if they want to reduce incidences of unwanted flirting, harassment or worse. Im almost certain youre saying this totally sarcastically, but you might wanna make that clearer | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
On June 29 2020 04:34 Wombat_NI wrote: What’s to debate here though? Specifically the past point anyway. If teenagers were previously equipped to deal with shitty behaviour because that was the culture of the time, that’s not a plus point to the teens of yesteryear it’s a damning indictment about historical cultural norms. Accepting awful behaviour for whatever reason does not build character or resilience. The vast majority of people I know with anxiety problems were either bullied at school or had an abusive partner. Anyway that aside, yes there should be limits in a purge of bad behaviour in the community, I can’t speak for others who have previously echoed similar sentiments to myself, my guess is they, like me don’t want people ostracised for a joke that went down badly, or things they said on Twitter as a teenager. The main incidents of discussion being Rapid, TLO and Pengwin’s re coaches in team housed and now Redeye are clearly incidences of alleged behaviour that strays far beyond that and into the land of abuse of various kinds. As a local amateur caster of some 8 years in a scene that loves shock humour, my jokes have all been tolerated because people know me, my sense of humour etc. I regret one joke where I riffed off a girl’s cosplay into a joke and it took her years to say it made her uncomfortable and that she was being singled out for her looks and didn’t feel she belonged with us guys. Which I apologised for and now I’m a bit older with different perspectives absolutely see where she was coming from. That’s absolute small fry compared to these allegations, but even within insignificant local amateur communities women are reluctant to come forward with a grievance involving a community staple. Appreciate the thoughtful response. What is there to debate? Quite a lot, I think. Employer/employee responsibilities are one matter that we probably agree on. Private conversations between adults are another. I don't think it appropriate to send unsolicited DP's, but I also don't think an appropriate response to unwanted online advances is to publicly humiliate and destroy the guilty party. I'd chalk those interactions under the messiness of relations between the sexes. I don't think it is society's job to police every behavior that causes offense. As to the more serious allegations against Redeye, it seems to me that very few people want to hear the other side or wait until we have all the evidence. As far as I know, he was found not guilty of the more serious allegations in court and we've yet to see concrete evidence of some of the lesser allegations. In the current environment, the allegation seems to be evidence enough. Should the alleged guilty party try to defend himself, they've demonstrated a lack of remorse or worse, further traumatized the alleged victim. If they don't mount a defense, they're obviously guilty. Medieval justice at its finest. (If she floats she's a witch.) What value would you place on the presumption of innocence until concrete evidence is provided? At what point will we say some behavior that causes offense is not serious enough to warrant a public execution? Rapid talked about his weener and sent some DP's. Not my bag, but is that *really* sexual harassment when the targets could have blocked his kakao? calls (no idea what that is) at any time? Did they make any attempt at all to deal with the issue in an adult manner before taking the nuclear option? As to your own peccadillos, all I can say is that I'm embarrassed for anyone that was so upset by your comments about someone's costume that they let it affect their emotions for years. It's been ages, but I've heard you cast and don't think you have anything to feel sorry about. | ||
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rekoJ
Afghanistan106 Posts
Hopefully schools in the future will teach girls in sexual education not to allow their male "friends" who are known alcoholics to sleep in their beds if they want to reduce incidences of unwanted flirting, harassment or worse. User was warned for this post Why always wanting the victim and not the culprit to behave better. Ah maybe because the culprit would still want the freedom of being able to be drunk and harass... Good point. Teaching the guys in sexual education at school to not become alcoholics and sexually harass women seems really unfair. Poor little boys... | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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