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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On July 03 2020 08:00 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 07:51 tskarzyn wrote:On July 03 2020 06:35 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 03 2020 04:34 tskarzyn wrote:On July 03 2020 04:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 03 2020 04:14 tskarzyn wrote:On July 03 2020 04:12 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 03 2020 04:09 tskarzyn wrote:
What would cause the pro MeToo folks to believe the movement has gone too far? What level of offense should not be cancel-worthy? Allegations absent proof meet the current bar. So do DPs. How about dirty jokes? Asking someone on a date a second or third time after being told no on the first attempt? (A good chunk of marriage stories.) Making a pass at someone you think may or may not share your feelings about them?
To me at least, it seems the curremt bar is completely subjective. How did an alleged victim's perception of some behavior make them feel. Proof isn't necessary in many cases. The actual behavior isn't even debates in many cases. You say this, but a brief look through this thread and you will notice: 1: A very long and tedious discussion of the evidence 2: A very long a tedious discussion of the actual behaviour 3: A very long an interesting debate about where the bar is for unacceptable behaviour etc. So I would say pretty much all of what you've written here is easily disproved by simply reading the thread  Let's take Rapid. What do we have proof of? He talked about his weeny and sent a DP after engaging with someone in DMs? Firstly, do yo want to talk proof (a standard of evidence that PROVES without any doubt that something happened), or evidence? There's plenty of evidence. Independent witness accounts which all verify each other as to the exact nature of his behaviour. Does it prove forensically that he did anything at all? No, but we aren't the police and we aren't a court. This is what the majority of this thread has been about. Its enough evidence to be pretty sure we don't want him around the community any more. He's more than welcome to make a statement of his own if he wants to.
He talked about his weeny and sent a DP after engaging with someone in DMs?
Forgive me but I'm trying to read your tone but this seems sarcastic. Do you think that this is acceptable behaviour in a professional setting? If you did this at work would you be outraged to find yourself unemployed pretty quickly? If it wasn't clear, I think that this particular behaviour is absolutely unprofessional, a serious abuse of his position and worthy of being got rid of. First, allegations are not proof, even if they come from multiple people. I read the main accuser claimed "the messages were deleted". Okay, so we don't know what he said. Second, abuse of his position? A low-wage caster who didn't employ or manage anyone? Fool me once, shame on me. Girl falls for pity party nice guy act, girl gets DP. Sorry, it's a private matter imo and can be remedied by being smarter next time. If she felt strongly about it, she could have sent evidence to his boss and let the organization resolve it. As a father, I'm not going to let my daughter believe she can be victimized so easily. Train your girls to be smart, confident, and tough and a loser like Avilo or Rapid is powerless. And what if they’re not a ‘loser’, what then? Or what if they are your boss or in a position of power above you? Or what if allegations were reported to team management and other figures who covered them up? Which isn’t even a hypothetical, it forms a big part of the DoTa storm which dwarfs what we’re seeing in SC2 at present. Doesn’t seem a particularly sound strategy across the board. IMO, an employer's responsibility extends as far as the office. What an employee does in private with people they do not employ is not their concern unless it impacts their bottom line. If an employee is sexually harassed, reports it, and management covers it up, their employer would be on the hook for damages. The bar for sexual harassment in the workplace is low. So it basically extends nowhere at all then? Have you read the stuff from Dota2 by any chance? What about when it’s Redeye who half owns the production company, who do you go to in that scenario? Also in a wider sense we’re talking a multinational industry where casting talent operate more akin to freelancers in many instances, although some companies directly employ casters first their productions too. If you’re say, American working at an event in mainland Europe for a European based event that contracts the production to a U.K. company, one of whom’s members assaults you, what’s the legal process there for recourse outside of being rather complicated and expensive to even look into?
Assault sounds like a matter for the authorities. As an employer, I'd put the employee on leave until the evidence was presented.
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On July 03 2020 07:44 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 07:34 franzji wrote:Well I'm glad Rapid apologized in private to people AT LEAST. Here in the US we're required to take sexual harassment training at many jobs. We need things like that in esports.He probably felt he wasn't doing much harm to women because everything was just online messages. Like shitty flirting skills. Ask any women who has used things like Tinder, and they will tell you that it's not uncommon for men to just send dick pictures to women without permission. Not trying to defend his harassment, but it could have been much worse, like IRL rape allegations. It's obvious he got off to it. Finally I'm happy that the starcraft allegations we've seen are nothing compared to what we're seeing in some other communities, like smart bros... read these it's insane. Jesus that’s a lot of hyperlinks, can you give me the cliff notes so I don’t end up super depressed?
Sure. About half of them are about sexual harassment only(for example, grabbing, messaging, gross "bro-culture", sending dick pictures without permission, etc). Smash bros is a community where everyone has to meet up IRL, which means that the few girls constantly get attention from guys in person. Add in the the smash bro community has a lot of younger, immature people in it, very nerdy types, you get some serious problems.
The other half are more serious I'll mention. One of their best players named Nairo statutory raped a 15 year old (when he 20 himself). It was "consensual" but since one player was 15, it's really not, and legally not consensual.
The next noteworthy one is a girl named Cinnpie who targeted 14 year olds.
The next one is a caster, named D1. He would be like the Artosis of smash bros in popularity levels. He is accused of raping a girl, as well as taking advantage of other girls and having sex I think.
I don't really follow smash anymore, but a lot of the names on the list are top players. Anti, The Moon, Keitaro, sleepyk,Jtails. It's crazy.
The last intersting one is Mr. Wizard. You might know him from EVO, he was recently on the tasteless podcast. His accusations are from 20-30 years ago, which is an interesting case.
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On July 03 2020 08:18 franzji wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 07:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 03 2020 07:34 franzji wrote:Well I'm glad Rapid apologized in private to people AT LEAST. Here in the US we're required to take sexual harassment training at many jobs. We need things like that in esports.He probably felt he wasn't doing much harm to women because everything was just online messages. Like shitty flirting skills. Ask any women who has used things like Tinder, and they will tell you that it's not uncommon for men to just send dick pictures to women without permission. Not trying to defend his harassment, but it could have been much worse, like IRL rape allegations. It's obvious he got off to it. Finally I'm happy that the starcraft allegations we've seen are nothing compared to what we're seeing in some other communities, like smart bros... read these it's insane. Jesus that’s a lot of hyperlinks, can you give me the cliff notes so I don’t end up super depressed? Sure. About half of them are about sexual harassment only(for example, grabbing, messaging, gross "bro-culture", sending dick pictures without permission, etc). Smash bros is a community where everyone has to meet up IRL, which means that the few girls constantly get attention from guys in person. Add in the the smash bro community has a lot of younger, immature people in it, very nerdy types, you get some serious problems. The other half are more serious I'll mention. One of their best players named Nairo statutory raped a 15 year old (when he 20 himself). It was "consensual" but since one player was 15, it's really not, and legally not consensual. The next noteworthy one is a girl named Cinnpie who targeted 14 year olds. The next one is a caster, named D1. He would be like the Artosis of smash bros in popularity levels. He is accused of raping a girl, as well as taking advantage of other girls and having sex I think. I don't really follow smash anymore, but a lot of the names on the list are top players. Anti, The Moon, Keitaro, sleepyk,Jtails. It's crazy. The last intersting one is Mr. Wizard. You might know him from EVO, he was recently on the tasteless podcast. His accusations are from 20-30 years ago, which is an interesting case.
Just a note here, sexual grabbing is sexual assault, not harassment.
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On July 03 2020 10:38 WarSame wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 08:18 franzji wrote:On July 03 2020 07:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 03 2020 07:34 franzji wrote:Well I'm glad Rapid apologized in private to people AT LEAST. Here in the US we're required to take sexual harassment training at many jobs. We need things like that in esports.He probably felt he wasn't doing much harm to women because everything was just online messages. Like shitty flirting skills. Ask any women who has used things like Tinder, and they will tell you that it's not uncommon for men to just send dick pictures to women without permission. Not trying to defend his harassment, but it could have been much worse, like IRL rape allegations. It's obvious he got off to it. Finally I'm happy that the starcraft allegations we've seen are nothing compared to what we're seeing in some other communities, like smart bros... read these it's insane. Jesus that’s a lot of hyperlinks, can you give me the cliff notes so I don’t end up super depressed? Sure. About half of them are about sexual harassment only(for example, grabbing, messaging, gross "bro-culture", sending dick pictures without permission, etc). Smash bros is a community where everyone has to meet up IRL, which means that the few girls constantly get attention from guys in person. Add in the the smash bro community has a lot of younger, immature people in it, very nerdy types, you get some serious problems. The other half are more serious I'll mention. One of their best players named Nairo statutory raped a 15 year old (when he 20 himself). It was "consensual" but since one player was 15, it's really not, and legally not consensual. The next noteworthy one is a girl named Cinnpie who targeted 14 year olds. The next one is a caster, named D1. He would be like the Artosis of smash bros in popularity levels. He is accused of raping a girl, as well as taking advantage of other girls and having sex I think. I don't really follow smash anymore, but a lot of the names on the list are top players. Anti, The Moon, Keitaro, sleepyk,Jtails. It's crazy. The last intersting one is Mr. Wizard. You might know him from EVO, he was recently on the tasteless podcast. His accusations are from 20-30 years ago, which is an interesting case. Just a note here, sexual grabbing is sexual assault, not harassment.
yes
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On July 03 2020 10:38 WarSame wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 08:18 franzji wrote:On July 03 2020 07:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 03 2020 07:34 franzji wrote:Well I'm glad Rapid apologized in private to people AT LEAST. Here in the US we're required to take sexual harassment training at many jobs. We need things like that in esports.He probably felt he wasn't doing much harm to women because everything was just online messages. Like shitty flirting skills. Ask any women who has used things like Tinder, and they will tell you that it's not uncommon for men to just send dick pictures to women without permission. Not trying to defend his harassment, but it could have been much worse, like IRL rape allegations. It's obvious he got off to it. Finally I'm happy that the starcraft allegations we've seen are nothing compared to what we're seeing in some other communities, like smart bros... read these it's insane. Jesus that’s a lot of hyperlinks, can you give me the cliff notes so I don’t end up super depressed? Sure. About half of them are about sexual harassment only(for example, grabbing, messaging, gross "bro-culture", sending dick pictures without permission, etc). Smash bros is a community where everyone has to meet up IRL, which means that the few girls constantly get attention from guys in person. Add in the the smash bro community has a lot of younger, immature people in it, very nerdy types, you get some serious problems. The other half are more serious I'll mention. One of their best players named Nairo statutory raped a 15 year old (when he 20 himself). It was "consensual" but since one player was 15, it's really not, and legally not consensual. The next noteworthy one is a girl named Cinnpie who targeted 14 year olds. The next one is a caster, named D1. He would be like the Artosis of smash bros in popularity levels. He is accused of raping a girl, as well as taking advantage of other girls and having sex I think. I don't really follow smash anymore, but a lot of the names on the list are top players. Anti, The Moon, Keitaro, sleepyk,Jtails. It's crazy. The last intersting one is Mr. Wizard. You might know him from EVO, he was recently on the tasteless podcast. His accusations are from 20-30 years ago, which is an interesting case. Just a note here, sexual grabbing is sexual assault, not harassment.
Also Zero from Smash 4 and potentially TL's HungryBox from Melee, to add two of the biggest Smash names to the list: https://dotesports.com/fgc/news/hungrybox-team-liquid-respond-to-harassment-allegations
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On July 07 2020 21:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 10:38 WarSame wrote:On July 03 2020 08:18 franzji wrote:On July 03 2020 07:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 03 2020 07:34 franzji wrote:Well I'm glad Rapid apologized in private to people AT LEAST. Here in the US we're required to take sexual harassment training at many jobs. We need things like that in esports.He probably felt he wasn't doing much harm to women because everything was just online messages. Like shitty flirting skills. Ask any women who has used things like Tinder, and they will tell you that it's not uncommon for men to just send dick pictures to women without permission. Not trying to defend his harassment, but it could have been much worse, like IRL rape allegations. It's obvious he got off to it. Finally I'm happy that the starcraft allegations we've seen are nothing compared to what we're seeing in some other communities, like smart bros... read these it's insane. Jesus that’s a lot of hyperlinks, can you give me the cliff notes so I don’t end up super depressed? Sure. About half of them are about sexual harassment only(for example, grabbing, messaging, gross "bro-culture", sending dick pictures without permission, etc). Smash bros is a community where everyone has to meet up IRL, which means that the few girls constantly get attention from guys in person. Add in the the smash bro community has a lot of younger, immature people in it, very nerdy types, you get some serious problems. The other half are more serious I'll mention. One of their best players named Nairo statutory raped a 15 year old (when he 20 himself). It was "consensual" but since one player was 15, it's really not, and legally not consensual. The next noteworthy one is a girl named Cinnpie who targeted 14 year olds. The next one is a caster, named D1. He would be like the Artosis of smash bros in popularity levels. He is accused of raping a girl, as well as taking advantage of other girls and having sex I think. I don't really follow smash anymore, but a lot of the names on the list are top players. Anti, The Moon, Keitaro, sleepyk,Jtails. It's crazy. The last intersting one is Mr. Wizard. You might know him from EVO, he was recently on the tasteless podcast. His accusations are from 20-30 years ago, which is an interesting case. Just a note here, sexual grabbing is sexual assault, not harassment. Also Zero from Smash 4 and potentially TL's HungryBox from Melee, to add two of the biggest Smash names to the list: https://dotesports.com/fgc/news/hungrybox-team-liquid-respond-to-harassment-allegations
What do you think should be done about hungrybox here?
Its an interesting point that isn't often discussed. If someone offers a truthful admission of what they have done to me that goes *some* of the distance to showing that they are sorry and they should have a path to forgiveness (depending on what the victims say i suppose).
Maybe he should take a course or two and stay out of pro gaming for a year or something. Maybe he should apologise in person to the victims as a group if they want him to.
I don't think permanently ruining someone's career when they show genuine willingness to change is a good idea long term.
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On July 07 2020 21:30 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2020 21:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 03 2020 10:38 WarSame wrote:On July 03 2020 08:18 franzji wrote:On July 03 2020 07:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 03 2020 07:34 franzji wrote:Well I'm glad Rapid apologized in private to people AT LEAST. Here in the US we're required to take sexual harassment training at many jobs. We need things like that in esports.He probably felt he wasn't doing much harm to women because everything was just online messages. Like shitty flirting skills. Ask any women who has used things like Tinder, and they will tell you that it's not uncommon for men to just send dick pictures to women without permission. Not trying to defend his harassment, but it could have been much worse, like IRL rape allegations. It's obvious he got off to it. Finally I'm happy that the starcraft allegations we've seen are nothing compared to what we're seeing in some other communities, like smart bros... read these it's insane. Jesus that’s a lot of hyperlinks, can you give me the cliff notes so I don’t end up super depressed? Sure. About half of them are about sexual harassment only(for example, grabbing, messaging, gross "bro-culture", sending dick pictures without permission, etc). Smash bros is a community where everyone has to meet up IRL, which means that the few girls constantly get attention from guys in person. Add in the the smash bro community has a lot of younger, immature people in it, very nerdy types, you get some serious problems. The other half are more serious I'll mention. One of their best players named Nairo statutory raped a 15 year old (when he 20 himself). It was "consensual" but since one player was 15, it's really not, and legally not consensual. The next noteworthy one is a girl named Cinnpie who targeted 14 year olds. The next one is a caster, named D1. He would be like the Artosis of smash bros in popularity levels. He is accused of raping a girl, as well as taking advantage of other girls and having sex I think. I don't really follow smash anymore, but a lot of the names on the list are top players. Anti, The Moon, Keitaro, sleepyk,Jtails. It's crazy. The last intersting one is Mr. Wizard. You might know him from EVO, he was recently on the tasteless podcast. His accusations are from 20-30 years ago, which is an interesting case. Just a note here, sexual grabbing is sexual assault, not harassment. Also Zero from Smash 4 and potentially TL's HungryBox from Melee, to add two of the biggest Smash names to the list: https://dotesports.com/fgc/news/hungrybox-team-liquid-respond-to-harassment-allegations What do you think should be done about hungrybox here? Its an interesting point that isn't often discussed. If someone offers a truthful admission of what they have done to me that goes *some* of the distance to showing that they are sorry and they should have a path to forgiveness (depending on what the victims say i suppose). Maybe he should take a course or two and stay out of pro gaming for a year or something. Maybe he should apologise in person to the victims as a group if they want him to. I don't think permanently ruining someone's career when they show genuine willingness to change is a good idea long term.
I think it genuinely depends on whether or not victims step forward, corroborate what he says (or do they claim things were worse), and what the specifics of the situations have been. On one hand, I appreciate him proactively admitting to issues; on the other hand, it would be pretty stupid at this point for other abusers to not step forward if they think they're going to be outed anyway. Damage control definitely isn't retribution, and I think we should wait and see what the victims say.
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Assault sounds like a matter for the authorities. As an employer, I'd put the employee on leave until the evidence was presented.
Dude, based on your comments (not just the one above) im going to assume you could never be an employer with your attitude. You basically blaming everyone aside from Rapid for not stopping him from using his position to be a creep, including the victims. That is NOT how any modern functional workplace can or will operate -- in the US if your attitude is 'well im employing someone who is basically sexually harassing people, including at work events, but they arent employees and they should just handle it themselves,' your opening yourself up to about 9 different forms of lawsuit. You dont want a Chapter VII gender discrimination suit or a Chapter VI suit for not acknowledging complaints about sexual harassment perpetrated by an employee, because just being slow to deal with a situation like this once its public knowledge can later be used as evidence of negligence. Your mealy-mouthed defenses for a guy who, i think its clear, probably should not have kept his job, fly on a forum like this but would get you into huge trouble in a deposition.
The world is changing pretty fast, man, in case you hadn't realized. An employee of yours being accused of sexual harassment and creepy behavior by MULTIPLE women, one of whom was underaged, is not something you take lightly. And when this explodes into public view, you definitely dont start telling the victims they should have been smarter and less inclined to be drawn in by a guy like Rapid. That's not just ludicrously terrible PR and a potential legal nightmare, but it's also pretty callous and morally wrong. I'm all for putting down the pitch forks and not destroying people, but when there is this much evience of this kind of inappropriate and unprofessional behavior, as an employer, you have to think the guy needs to go.[/QUOTE]
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On July 03 2020 08:03 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 08:00 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 03 2020 07:51 tskarzyn wrote:On July 03 2020 06:35 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 03 2020 04:34 tskarzyn wrote:On July 03 2020 04:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 03 2020 04:14 tskarzyn wrote:On July 03 2020 04:12 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 03 2020 04:09 tskarzyn wrote:
What would cause the pro MeToo folks to believe the movement has gone too far? What level of offense should not be cancel-worthy? Allegations absent proof meet the current bar. So do DPs. How about dirty jokes? Asking someone on a date a second or third time after being told no on the first attempt? (A good chunk of marriage stories.) Making a pass at someone you think may or may not share your feelings about them?
To me at least, it seems the curremt bar is completely subjective. How did an alleged victim's perception of some behavior make them feel. Proof isn't necessary in many cases. The actual behavior isn't even debates in many cases. You say this, but a brief look through this thread and you will notice: 1: A very long and tedious discussion of the evidence 2: A very long a tedious discussion of the actual behaviour 3: A very long an interesting debate about where the bar is for unacceptable behaviour etc. So I would say pretty much all of what you've written here is easily disproved by simply reading the thread Let's take Rapid. What do we have proof of? He talked about his weeny and sent a DP after engaging with someone in DMs? Firstly, do yo want to talk proof (a standard of evidence that PROVES without any doubt that something happened), or evidence? There's plenty of evidence. Independent witness accounts which all verify each other as to the exact nature of his behaviour. Does it prove forensically that he did anything at all? No, but we aren't the police and we aren't a court. This is what the majority of this thread has been about. Its enough evidence to be pretty sure we don't want him around the community any more. He's more than welcome to make a statement of his own if he wants to.
He talked about his weeny and sent a DP after engaging with someone in DMs?
Forgive me but I'm trying to read your tone but this seems sarcastic. Do you think that this is acceptable behaviour in a professional setting? If you did this at work would you be outraged to find yourself unemployed pretty quickly? If it wasn't clear, I think that this particular behaviour is absolutely unprofessional, a serious abuse of his position and worthy of being got rid of. First, allegations are not proof, even if they come from multiple people. I read the main accuser claimed "the messages were deleted". Okay, so we don't know what he said. Second, abuse of his position? A low-wage caster who didn't employ or manage anyone? Fool me once, shame on me. Girl falls for pity party nice guy act, girl gets DP. Sorry, it's a private matter imo and can be remedied by being smarter next time. If she felt strongly about it, she could have sent evidence to his boss and let the organization resolve it. As a father, I'm not going to let my daughter believe she can be victimized so easily. Train your girls to be smart, confident, and tough and a loser like Avilo or Rapid is powerless. And what if they’re not a ‘loser’, what then? Or what if they are your boss or in a position of power above you? Or what if allegations were reported to team management and other figures who covered them up? Which isn’t even a hypothetical, it forms a big part of the DoTa storm which dwarfs what we’re seeing in SC2 at present. Doesn’t seem a particularly sound strategy across the board. IMO, an employer's responsibility extends as far as the office. What an employee does in private with people they do not employ is not their concern unless it impacts their bottom line. If an employee is sexually harassed, reports it, and management covers it up, their employer would be on the hook for damages. The bar for sexual harassment in the workplace is low. So it basically extends nowhere at all then? Have you read the stuff from Dota2 by any chance? What about when it’s Redeye who half owns the production company, who do you go to in that scenario? Also in a wider sense we’re talking a multinational industry where casting talent operate more akin to freelancers in many instances, although some companies directly employ casters first their productions too. If you’re say, American working at an event in mainland Europe for a European based event that contracts the production to a U.K. company, one of whom’s members assaults you, what’s the legal process there for recourse outside of being rather complicated and expensive to even look into? Assault sounds like a matter for the authorities. As an employer, I'd put the employee on leave until the evidence was presented.
i have to wonder how much life experience some people have who react hysterically to a thrown punch or two. physical altercations occur on construction sites every week of the very hot summer where i live. Fights happen. The way the Canadian and US justice systems deals with a single punch thrown is approximately correct. The way some people talk about how its the end of the world as we know it.. is over the top.
When Brood War was in its hey-day there were 3 big places to go for great competitive action in the most populous area in Canada. They were Red Fox, Net Effect, and NetConnect. All three places were staffed by guys between 18 and 22. Dust ups, the occasional punch or two happened. Sometimes that occurred between employees as well. In fact, one of the guys who got into 3 fights over 3 years about 10 years ago at one of these 3 places is now the General Manager of all the retail properties for the owner of that internet cafe. He is a great guy who had a small temper problem when he was a teenager. I wish him and his soon to be wife all the success in the world.
mix high testosterone, too many red bulls, and some hyper competitive video gaming and you'll get the occasional fight.
My parents both come from big families so I've got lots of uncles. The general consensus amongst all of them is that in the 80s a scrap outside a video game arcade was common fare.
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On July 08 2020 00:11 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2020 00:02 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 03 2020 08:03 tskarzyn wrote:On July 03 2020 08:00 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 03 2020 07:51 tskarzyn wrote:On July 03 2020 06:35 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 03 2020 04:34 tskarzyn wrote:On July 03 2020 04:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 03 2020 04:14 tskarzyn wrote:On July 03 2020 04:12 Jockmcplop wrote:[quote] You say this, but a brief look through this thread and you will notice: 1: A very long and tedious discussion of the evidence 2: A very long a tedious discussion of the actual behaviour 3: A very long an interesting debate about where the bar is for unacceptable behaviour etc. So I would say pretty much all of what you've written here is easily disproved by simply reading the thread Let's take Rapid. What do we have proof of? He talked about his weeny and sent a DP after engaging with someone in DMs? Firstly, do yo want to talk proof (a standard of evidence that PROVES without any doubt that something happened), or evidence? There's plenty of evidence. Independent witness accounts which all verify each other as to the exact nature of his behaviour. Does it prove forensically that he did anything at all? No, but we aren't the police and we aren't a court. This is what the majority of this thread has been about. Its enough evidence to be pretty sure we don't want him around the community any more. He's more than welcome to make a statement of his own if he wants to.
He talked about his weeny and sent a DP after engaging with someone in DMs?
Forgive me but I'm trying to read your tone but this seems sarcastic. Do you think that this is acceptable behaviour in a professional setting? If you did this at work would you be outraged to find yourself unemployed pretty quickly? If it wasn't clear, I think that this particular behaviour is absolutely unprofessional, a serious abuse of his position and worthy of being got rid of. First, allegations are not proof, even if they come from multiple people. I read the main accuser claimed "the messages were deleted". Okay, so we don't know what he said. Second, abuse of his position? A low-wage caster who didn't employ or manage anyone? Fool me once, shame on me. Girl falls for pity party nice guy act, girl gets DP. Sorry, it's a private matter imo and can be remedied by being smarter next time. If she felt strongly about it, she could have sent evidence to his boss and let the organization resolve it. As a father, I'm not going to let my daughter believe she can be victimized so easily. Train your girls to be smart, confident, and tough and a loser like Avilo or Rapid is powerless. And what if they’re not a ‘loser’, what then? Or what if they are your boss or in a position of power above you? Or what if allegations were reported to team management and other figures who covered them up? Which isn’t even a hypothetical, it forms a big part of the DoTa storm which dwarfs what we’re seeing in SC2 at present. Doesn’t seem a particularly sound strategy across the board. IMO, an employer's responsibility extends as far as the office. What an employee does in private with people they do not employ is not their concern unless it impacts their bottom line. If an employee is sexually harassed, reports it, and management covers it up, their employer would be on the hook for damages. The bar for sexual harassment in the workplace is low. So it basically extends nowhere at all then? Have you read the stuff from Dota2 by any chance? What about when it’s Redeye who half owns the production company, who do you go to in that scenario? Also in a wider sense we’re talking a multinational industry where casting talent operate more akin to freelancers in many instances, although some companies directly employ casters first their productions too. If you’re say, American working at an event in mainland Europe for a European based event that contracts the production to a U.K. company, one of whom’s members assaults you, what’s the legal process there for recourse outside of being rather complicated and expensive to even look into? Assault sounds like a matter for the authorities. As an employer, I'd put the employee on leave until the evidence was presented. i have to wonder how much life experience some people have who react hysterically to a thrown punch or two. physical altercations occur on construction sites every week of the very hot summer where i live. Fights happen. The way the Canadian and US justice systems deals with a single punch thrown is approximately correct. The way some people talk about how its the end of the world as we know it.. is over the top. When Brood War was in its hey-day there were 3 big places to go for great competitive action in the most populous area in Canada. They were Red Fox, Net Effect, and NetConnect. All three places were staffed by guys between 18 and 22. Dust ups, the occasional punch or two happened. Sometimes that occurred between employees as well. In fact, one of the guys who got into 3 fights over 3 years about 10 years ago at one of these 3 places is now the General Manager of all the retail properties for the owner of that internet cafe. He is a great guy who had a small temper problem when he was a teenager. I wish him and his soon to be wife all the success in the world. mix high testosterone, too many red bulls, and some hyper competitive video gaming and you'll get the occasional fight. My parents both come from big families so I've got lots of uncles. The general consensus amongst all of them is that in the 80s a scrap outside a video game arcade was common fare. First off much of what you said is not true, such as a weekly fight at a construction site, I have friends and family in both construction and construction management if they got into a fight on site they would be fired. Secondly there is a difference between a fight and one guy punching another, one involves mutual combatants one is assault. And 3rd it is not the 80's many things that were allowed at work places are no longer, sexual harassment, smoking, drinking, and so on. And these have been positive improvements.
Not in the construction sites where my friends worked. Also, in my experience , the better the economy is more fighting there is because the labourers who are very big and strong know they can get another job quickly. The older brother of alpha dog of my high school gang was about the size of Brock Lesnar. He could perform the labour of two average men. His antics were tolerated. He would get into fights and sometimes get fired and sometimes not get fired. Also, sometimes it was difficult to assess exactly what happened so he kept his job.
Any NetConnect , Net Effect, or Red Fox regular is well aware of the fights that went on between the employees. Why do you think Net Effect had "Big Mike" hanging out not doing much work? To keep a lid on the fighting. Interestingly, "Big Mike" now owns Net Effect. Why did NetConnect have "Code Red"s where 10+ employees rush to an area? To end physical altercations. In the interest of fairness to each of these 3 places I will say that the more expensive the location the less fighting that goes on. I had a lot of fun at all 3 places. There were great places to play Starcraft.
As I said though, I think the Canadian and US justice systems deal with these minor crimes appropriately.
On July 08 2020 00:11 JimmiC wrote: Secondly there is a difference between a fight and one guy punching another, one involves mutual combatants one is assault.
To clarify, the dust ups at the 3 places i mentioned often involve only 1 guy on the attack.
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On July 07 2020 23:58 Popehole wrote:Show nested quote +Assault sounds like a matter for the authorities. As an employer, I'd put the employee on leave until the evidence was presented. Dude, based on your comments (not just the one above) im going to assume you could never be an employer with your attitude. You basically blaming everyone aside from Rapid for not stopping him from using his position to be a creep, including the victims. That is NOT how any modern functional workplace can or will operate -- in the US if your attitude is 'well im employing someone who is basically sexually harassing people, including at work events, but they arent employees and they should just handle it themselves,' your opening yourself up to about 9 different forms of lawsuit. You dont want a Chapter VII gender discrimination suit or a Chapter VI suit for not acknowledging complaints about sexual harassment perpetrated by an employee, because just being slow to deal with a situation like this once its public knowledge can later be used as evidence of negligence. Your mealy-mouthed defenses for a guy who, i think its clear, probably should not have kept his job, fly on a forum like this but would get you into huge trouble in a deposition. The world is changing pretty fast, man, in case you hadn't realized. An employee of yours being accused of sexual harassment and creepy behavior by MULTIPLE women, one of whom was underaged, is not something you take lightly. And when this explodes into public view, you definitely dont start telling the victims they should have been smarter and less inclined to be drawn in by a guy like Rapid. That's not just ludicrously terrible PR and a potential legal nightmare, but it's also pretty callous and morally wrong. I'm all for putting down the pitch forks and not destroying people, but when there is this much evience of this kind of inappropriate and unprofessional behavior, as an employer, you have to think the guy needs to go.
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You are 100% right. I think he may not be from US though, he's from a place where they are still in the dark ages on some of this shit and tolerate it. So sadly, in those areas he could be an employer.
+ Show Spoiler + (in rus and much of eastern europe you are expected to serve your boss and they take what they want)
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On July 08 2020 00:02 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i have to wonder how much life experience some people have who react hysterically to a thrown punch or two. physical altercations occur on construction sites every week of the very hot summer where i live. Fights happen. The way the Canadian and US justice systems deals with a single punch thrown is approximately correct. The way some people talk about how its the end of the world as we know it.. is over the top.
You make it sound like you think that being punched is something you should just accept rather than report because it would be uncool to seem upset about it
Fortunately some parts of the world have evolved past those kinds of opinions, if that's what you mean
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Blowing off steam by getting into semi-serious fights is something for when you're 13 with your friends in the park in between fart jokes and bragging about your non-existent sexual prowess, not for when you're an adult. At your job.
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Since this never got answered, I'm going to post this again...
So I have no clue who any of these people are (both posting in this thread and also mentioned) except for Rapid, since I exclusively watch Brood War and I don't watch SC2, but there isn't a thread for this in the Brood War forums.
My question is what is the roster of ASL commentators at now? Just off of memory of casters that I've seen, I could think of Tasteless, Artosis, Rapid, NoRegret, and Cadenzie. Now that Rapid is most likely gone, are there only 3-4 left (I don't know if Cadenzie is actually employed by Afreeca to be one)?
I ask this because there seems to be not enough English commentators for BW events (KCM didn't have any and Afreeca Team Starleague currently don't have any)
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On July 08 2020 00:37 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2020 23:58 Popehole wrote:Assault sounds like a matter for the authorities. As an employer, I'd put the employee on leave until the evidence was presented. Dude, based on your comments (not just the one above) im going to assume you could never be an employer with your attitude. You basically blaming everyone aside from Rapid for not stopping him from using his position to be a creep, including the victims. That is NOT how any modern functional workplace can or will operate -- in the US if your attitude is 'well im employing someone who is basically sexually harassing people, including at work events, but they arent employees and they should just handle it themselves,' your opening yourself up to about 9 different forms of lawsuit. You dont want a Chapter VII gender discrimination suit or a Chapter VI suit for not acknowledging complaints about sexual harassment perpetrated by an employee, because just being slow to deal with a situation like this once its public knowledge can later be used as evidence of negligence. Your mealy-mouthed defenses for a guy who, i think its clear, probably should not have kept his job, fly on a forum like this but would get you into huge trouble in a deposition. The world is changing pretty fast, man, in case you hadn't realized. An employee of yours being accused of sexual harassment and creepy behavior by MULTIPLE women, one of whom was underaged, is not something you take lightly. And when this explodes into public view, you definitely dont start telling the victims they should have been smarter and less inclined to be drawn in by a guy like Rapid. That's not just ludicrously terrible PR and a potential legal nightmare, but it's also pretty callous and morally wrong. I'm all for putting down the pitch forks and not destroying people, but when there is this much evience of this kind of inappropriate and unprofessional behavior, as an employer, you have to think the guy needs to go.
You are 100% right. I think he may not be from US though, he's from a place where they are still in the dark ages on some of this shit and tolerate it. So sadly, in those areas he could be an employer.
+ Show Spoiler + (in rus and much of eastern europe you are expected to serve your boss and they take what they want)
Not that it matters, but I work in the US and exp ranges from boiler room environments to a Sequoia-backed startup that took employees to strip clubs during work offsites to one of the largest tech cos in the world. Small companies generally won't tolerate drama unless an employee makes a serious accusation against a coworker, and large cos will fire you in a heartbeat for the smallest of offences because they are constantly fending off frivolous lawsuits. (My favorite was a lawsuit alleging a black female was discriminated against when our Indian, female CFO promoted another Indian female to controller. The co. settled.)
In Rapid's case, his employer had zero responsibility or liability exposure for DM's he shared with people outside his org. If he harassed a co-worker, that's obviously a separate matter. My understanding is that he DM'd independent streamers but I could be wrong.
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Yeah, employers should be forced to keep employing a person credibly accused of improper behavior after he becomes a clear liability, some dude pretending to be a worldly labor lawyer said it so it must be true. It's ridiculous to talk about liability for this or liability for that when employers have mostly carte blanche authority to fire anyone for any reason so long as it dodges civil rights laws.
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On July 10 2020 07:56 farvacola wrote:
Yeah, employers should be forced to keep employing a person credibly accused of improper behavior after he becomes a clear liability, some dude pretending to be a worldly labor lawyer said it so it must be true. It's ridiculous to talk about liability for this or liability for that when employers have mostly carte blanche authority to fire anyone for any reason so long as it dodges civil rights laws.
Didn't say I was a lawyer, I just live in a world we call reality. Of course we don't want people to send unsolicited DP's or inappropriate texts, but if that became grounds for termination everywhere it would be absolute chaos. The excesses of MeToo are already harming women's upward mobility in the workplace, attractive women especially, because of the liability they carry.
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On July 10 2020 09:58 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2020 07:56 farvacola wrote:
Yeah, employers should be forced to keep employing a person credibly accused of improper behavior after he becomes a clear liability, some dude pretending to be a worldly labor lawyer said it so it must be true. It's ridiculous to talk about liability for this or liability for that when employers have mostly carte blanche authority to fire anyone for any reason so long as it dodges civil rights laws. Didn't say I was a lawyer, I just live in a world we call reality. Of course we don't want people to send unsolicited DP's or inappropriate texts, but if that became grounds for termination everywhere it would be absolute chaos. The excesses of MeToo are already harming women's upward mobility in the workplace, attractive women especially, because of the liability they carry.
Any studies to back this up? I'm curious how they go about quantifying attractiveness.
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EPT
