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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 26 2020 11:26 XenOsky wrote:
Pls go to the authorities, not twitter. If you cant provee abuse/harrasment you are doing serious dmg to a persons carreer with no proof.
This is serious shit and must be attacked seriously.
Please read the OP, the mountains of evidence, and the rest of the thread before posting any further.
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Northern Ireland25396 Posts
On June 26 2020 11:26 XenOsky wrote:
Pls go to the authorities, not twitter. If you cant provee abuse/harrasment you are doing serious dmg to a persons carreer with no proof.
This is serious shit and must be attacked seriously.
What authorities?
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On June 26 2020 09:56 ReFridgeRaider wrote:
I know I'm relatively new to TL and don't really post, but I thought of it as important to leave my thoughts on this thread here after reading it all. As someone who loves Starcraft it sucks hearing that shitty things have happened in the background of the scene.
I just wanted to add that, in a way, I can understand not wanting to ruin someone's reputation and that with these stories (and I think it's important they be called stories, rather than accusations, because these women and men aren't necessarily coming out to attack their harasser/abuser, but coming out to tell their stories) coming out can do harm to someone's reputation even without us (the public) condemning whoever was accused. However, I think this fear of a tarnished reputation is part of the larger problem of women/men not being given effective, if any, channels of communication that can address the events that happened to them. I think its poignant to realize that if there was a way any of them could have solved this problem quietly they would have taken that option, but because that doesn't exist this means going public becomes the avenue they go to to be heard. And with anything that goes public there is always at risk of criticism or damnation for all parties involved.
I think one of the hurdles we have to accept going over in order to fix a system that harms people by keeping them quiet and is inadequate at addressing concerns of sexual harassment or abuse is the idea of the tarnished reputation. I don't think it fixes things going on if we make a focus out of making sure a reputation isn't so tarnished. I think the community becomes better as a whole when organizations that help make Starcraft what it is, have clear policies on sexual harassment and abuse, and places where people can speak about it. It becomes better when we speak up together (because speaking alone can be very hard) against those that harass and abuse others (I think that's something almost everyone here agrees on). Those are lofty goals, maybe, but it's the SC community so I have faith. I think if we want a future where we have less of these stories being told in public all at once, because they were kept close to the chest, then the first step needs to be believing and listening to their stories. If they believe that they will be heard and organizations listen and actually address the issues they're told about, then we are less likely to be seeing these stories that pop up in public, alongside the ire of the public against whoever is in the story. This take might be a bit naive, but as other posters have written I think it's more important that we address their stories with belief, rather than doubt and shift focus away to a tarnished reputation.
Thanks for reading. This thread has helped me to put word some of my own beliefs.
I've really appreciated these one-off posters that have come in, approached the situation with empathy and understanding, said their little bit supporting an approach for a more just society, and not felt the need to get involved in the mud wrestling going on. It heartens me to see both see these opinions, and that people feel the need to register them to make it clear that a lot of people are in support of justice.
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On June 26 2020 11:33 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 11:26 XenOsky wrote:
Pls go to the authorities, not twitter. If you cant provee abuse/harrasment you are doing serious dmg to a persons carreer with no proof.
This is serious shit and must be attacked seriously. What authorities?
i dont know, mb a lawyer?
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On June 26 2020 12:00 XenOsky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 11:33 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 26 2020 11:26 XenOsky wrote:
Pls go to the authorities, not twitter. If you cant provee abuse/harrasment you are doing serious dmg to a persons carreer with no proof.
This is serious shit and must be attacked seriously. What authorities? i dont know, mb a lawyer?
There is no hard proof.
It's almost like Cele made a new account and started over.
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On June 26 2020 10:47 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 06:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 06:00 WarSame wrote:On June 26 2020 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 05:07 Geo.Rion wrote:
I hate to repeat myself, but since i semi-follow the dota2 e-sports as well, and without bringing that sh1t in here, I'm just so glad what we have here is not even close in scope and severity to what is going on over there.
Stay wholesome SC2 community I didn't know what someone meant by "full reddit" then I looked and yeah, yikes. Reddit Starcraft or Reddit Dota2? Does anyone else feel like there's just huge amounts of very shitty people involved in our gaming communities? I suppose a lot of men everywhere have these sorts of opinions, but I guess it's just disappointing to me that there's so MANY shitty people with shitty opinions. Even if you could prop their eyes open, point at the truth and be like "read it you sonofabitch" it would take hours to convince someone, they'll refuse to believe it because that means they're a sexual harasser/assaulter too, and they'll skip on their merry way. And there's millions of these people in our communities. Places like TL give me hope because the community is overall fairly reasonable about the whole thing. Most people are taking a "empathize with the accuser, while not necessarily believing them out of hand". Other than a few shitty (as in the only reasonable explanation for having that take is that the person is a rapist) takes even the people who have challenged the accusations have been overall not too aggressive and I feel like we could talk a while and come to some conclusion that, I hope, would bring them a little more towards creating a positive society in which we can finally start throwing predators into the fire. Then I look at Reddit or Twitter and see millions of neckbeards covering for their past or future sexual misbehaviour and it seems insurmountable. Both, but Dota is reaaaly bad. Seems like the "bad apple" thinking has been fully embraced by gaming communities though. Still don't seem ready to take this moment to look at how they are products of the communities and more so (afaik) in dota's case rather prominent. Dota is having our "counterjerk" moment, which is where people who were being quiet now feel emboldened to speak out as some people are bored of the initial news. It isn't bad apple thinking - people are flat out refusing to listen to accusations and complaining that problematic people have been cancelled (one of whom was found guilty of harassment in court...) This isn't even reddit specific - our threads have several people commenting from this angle. Reddit is a 1000x worse though. Some examples : front page reddit threads about how one of the accusers should never have come forward A "rebuttal" in the form of an archived, edited post on a forum about someone's recollections of a night 6 years ago (where some of the posts are from friends of the accused) Things like this : https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hftuo0/this_witchhunt_is_wrong/Sc2 I think has more equal female representation than DotA does, at least in the west. Not referring to talent or pros, but as a player base (though Scarlett is infinity more representation than women have had as players in DotA). DotA has always been notoriously toxic to women, so it isn't surprising to see it bubble up in our top circles.
I was trying to be generous (though I shouldn't be). Not really a part of the Dota community myself. Little easier to work around the racism/sexism/bigotry as a casual in SC2 because it's not so much of a team game that encourages the high-stress yelling of slurs and shitting on your team that's common in games like CSgo, dota and LoL (to name some).
There are countless people that just don't play online multi-player games at all because you're practically certain to come across people saying things they simply can't get away with in more public settings that have the vaguest sense of accountability, but in online gaming communities, we have no functional form of recourse. So it's accept it, speak up and get ostracized, or just not play/let anyone know you're different.
Turning that dynamic on abusers and their defenders is good, not equivalent. I'm concerned about a community that gets more upset at the tone used toward those defenders of abusers than the comfort of those defenders in their community.
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Eleine's story of attempted rape by a 2011 era SC2 pro seems not a lot talked about in here for some reason. A pro who had a team jacket and went to hotel after party, which makes me think this was one of the bigger name teams? And a coach who was told about it and brushed it aside?
Really awful.
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I really like a lot of people in this thread who are like: just go to the magical police and they will sort it all out!
They will not diminish your case,
They will believe you,
They won't lose the evidence,
They'll be able to act in multiple jurisdictions,
The judge won't throw your case out because the defendant seems like a nice boy,
The jury will definitely find them guilty.
I can only interpret this attitude in two ways: either you have a lot of misplaced of confidence in the police, or you think an environment where people false allegations might happen is way more scary than a world where victims of sexual abuse aren't allowed to talk about their experiences.
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On June 26 2020 12:04 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 10:47 Nevuk wrote:On June 26 2020 06:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 06:00 WarSame wrote:On June 26 2020 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 05:07 Geo.Rion wrote:
I hate to repeat myself, but since i semi-follow the dota2 e-sports as well, and without bringing that sh1t in here, I'm just so glad what we have here is not even close in scope and severity to what is going on over there.
Stay wholesome SC2 community I didn't know what someone meant by "full reddit" then I looked and yeah, yikes. Reddit Starcraft or Reddit Dota2? Does anyone else feel like there's just huge amounts of very shitty people involved in our gaming communities? I suppose a lot of men everywhere have these sorts of opinions, but I guess it's just disappointing to me that there's so MANY shitty people with shitty opinions. Even if you could prop their eyes open, point at the truth and be like "read it you sonofabitch" it would take hours to convince someone, they'll refuse to believe it because that means they're a sexual harasser/assaulter too, and they'll skip on their merry way. And there's millions of these people in our communities. Places like TL give me hope because the community is overall fairly reasonable about the whole thing. Most people are taking a "empathize with the accuser, while not necessarily believing them out of hand". Other than a few shitty (as in the only reasonable explanation for having that take is that the person is a rapist) takes even the people who have challenged the accusations have been overall not too aggressive and I feel like we could talk a while and come to some conclusion that, I hope, would bring them a little more towards creating a positive society in which we can finally start throwing predators into the fire. Then I look at Reddit or Twitter and see millions of neckbeards covering for their past or future sexual misbehaviour and it seems insurmountable. Both, but Dota is reaaaly bad. Seems like the "bad apple" thinking has been fully embraced by gaming communities though. Still don't seem ready to take this moment to look at how they are products of the communities and more so (afaik) in dota's case rather prominent. Dota is having our "counterjerk" moment, which is where people who were being quiet now feel emboldened to speak out as some people are bored of the initial news. It isn't bad apple thinking - people are flat out refusing to listen to accusations and complaining that problematic people have been cancelled (one of whom was found guilty of harassment in court...) This isn't even reddit specific - our threads have several people commenting from this angle. Reddit is a 1000x worse though. Some examples : front page reddit threads about how one of the accusers should never have come forward A "rebuttal" in the form of an archived, edited post on a forum about someone's recollections of a night 6 years ago (where some of the posts are from friends of the accused) Things like this : https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hftuo0/this_witchhunt_is_wrong/Sc2 I think has more equal female representation than DotA does, at least in the west. Not referring to talent or pros, but as a player base (though Scarlett is infinity more representation than women have had as players in DotA). DotA has always been notoriously toxic to women, so it isn't surprising to see it bubble up in our top circles. I was trying to be generous (though I shouldn't be). Not really a part of the Dota community myself. Little easier to work around the racism/sexism/bigotry as a casual in SC2 because it's not so much of a team game that encourages the high-stress yelling of slurs and shitting on your team that's common in games like CSgo, dota and LoL (to name some). There are countless people that just don't play online multi-player games at all because you're practically certain to come across people saying things they simply can't get away with in more public settings that have the vaguest sense of accountability, but in online gaming communities, we have no functional form of recourse. So it's accept it, speak up and get ostracized, or just not play/let anyone know you're different. Turning that dynamic on abusers and their defenders is good, not equivalent. I'm concerned about a community that gets more upset at the tone used toward those defenders of abusers than the comfort of those defenders in their community.
Right, high level summary is that we've had three very prominent people accused of some type of sexual assault or quid pro quo sexual harassment. One overlaps with csgo and is bigger there (Redeye). Possibly the biggest caster (Tobiwan) has just been credibly accused of raping his co-caster's long term gf(by the gf). The other guy (grandgrant) is accused of sexual assault before he was a caster, and then engaging in a long-term campaign of harrasment against a female caster, of which there was sufficient evidence for her to get a restraining order.
The bigger issue is how much of the scene seems to have been accepting of that type of behavior. One of the main casting studios had a caster say they lied about having sex with a woman due to pressure from the culture there to fit in. And some people are insisting on focusing on the issues with each allegation rather than the pattern of sexism being revealed throughout the high level western casting scene. (And a few players, mostly from NA as well). Being so desperate to avoid talking about the overall problems is why I find most of the "she said it was Tuesday and cloudy, but I checked the weather almanac and in 2013 it was never cloudy on a Tuesday" objections so irritating.
The question to be most concerned about, imo, is how do we prevent this from happening in the future? Drumming obvious bad actors out of the scene(s) feels like literally the least people can do. Structural reform is the obvious answer, but that's a lot harder. (And may not be feasible for sc2, given the smaller size). Every community of any size has had to deal with people like Avilo.
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Just my 2 cents: regarding the people who demand proof from victims, I don't think that they don't believe the story of the victim or insinuate that no one should speak up without proof. It's that they will not take any action against the supposedly perpetrator without any proof/evidence. I've seen some people saying that you can still believe and sympathize with the victim while not attacking the accused, which is the most reasonable response I seen so far. But then if we think of sexual harassment/abuse as serious crimes, is not taking any action against supposedly perpetrator really the right thing? We can all talk about how serious problems are, but not doing anything seem undermine the support for the victim.
I think the real question we need to discuss more is that how we can treat both side fairly, and on what basis should we take action in these situation, people seems to agree to give support to victim who speak out, but how should we treat the accused and what proof/evidence or testimony.... are needed for the community to take appropriate action.
And of course how can we build a system to support the victim in these situation, though honestly I don't think this forum is an appropriate platform to discuss this.
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On June 24 2020 22:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:20 Rainmansc wrote:
So BLM is over and we go over on public execution again? Im very sad to hear those things IF they are true but these things should not be a public debate but rather a thing that the police should sort out. Its very easy to destroys somebodies innocent life this way and this should never be the way we should be living together. What do you mean BLM is over? Systemic racism has finally ended? When, 10 seconds ago? Please let the rest of the United States know; we're not aware of this yet. Also, the fact that you would use the phrase "public execution" is incredibly ironic, given the literal public executions of black lives that most of the country is still outraged over. Awful.
IMHO we should consider the cultural implications of Rainmansc being from the Netherlands when discussing his take on BLM and racism, since it is prefectly appropriate for the Dutch to celebrate Black Pete in blackface every Christmas 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#:~:text=Nickelodeon in the Netherlands also,with soot on their faces.
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On June 26 2020 01:34 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 01:02 outscar wrote:
Leave RAPiD alone guys. We all wrote stupid shit back then countless times when we were young, why do you even need to bring it up after so many years? True or not, doesn't matter, he had some private conversation and making it "sexual harassment/abuse" is absurd! Are we entering the era where every fucking word is going to be censored? What RAPiD did back then isn't good but don't make drama out of it like he's rapist. It's funny how far you guys can go... You sent unsolicited explicit pictures to people that told you not to and made it clear they wanted nothing to do with you? A 14-year old making dramatic proclamations on Facebook is one thing. Sending unwanted pictures, as an adult, to someone and making them uncomfortable even when they tell you not to - that's quite another thing. What do you think sexual harassment is?
I read what happened briefly and didn't catch part about pictures. Well, if he really sent NSFW pictures out of nowhere - that's too far, that's where he crossed the line. If this is true, I feel sorry for RAPiD but he should feel ashamed and deserves punishment. 
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On June 26 2020 14:43 outscar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 01:34 Zealously wrote:On June 26 2020 01:02 outscar wrote:
Leave RAPiD alone guys. We all wrote stupid shit back then countless times when we were young, why do you even need to bring it up after so many years? True or not, doesn't matter, he had some private conversation and making it "sexual harassment/abuse" is absurd! Are we entering the era where every fucking word is going to be censored? What RAPiD did back then isn't good but don't make drama out of it like he's rapist. It's funny how far you guys can go... You sent unsolicited explicit pictures to people that told you not to and made it clear they wanted nothing to do with you? A 14-year old making dramatic proclamations on Facebook is one thing. Sending unwanted pictures, as an adult, to someone and making them uncomfortable even when they tell you not to - that's quite another thing. What do you think sexual harassment is? I read what happened briefly and didn't catch part about pictures. Well, if he really sent NSFW pictures out of nowhere - that's too far, that's where he crossed the line. If this is true, I feel sorry for RAPiD but he should feel ashamed and deserves punishment.
Even without sending a dick pic, he still is credibly accused of sexual harassment by multiple women, all with similar stories. It's a pretty clear pattern of abhorrent behavior.
lol at the people saying "go see a lawyer." You realize that it's a huge fucking hassle to do so, and most of the victims that have spoken out don't even want revenge or RAPiD to necessarily lose his career. You also are missing how ubiquitous sexual harassment is and how the systems in place (police, courts, HR) rarely give victims justice, siding with the person in a position of power, the perpetrator.
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On June 26 2020 08:10 EsportsJohn wrote:
A lot of people on the TL forums showing their true colors this week....
It's a very complicated issue that's presented not the most structured way to a highly mixed community. First off, the story about the girl who got nearly raped is sickening, in an ideal world I'd wish to see that prosecuted in an official channel. That needs to go without saying. It also doesn't need much to agree that any of the women coming forward receive solidarity from the community.
As for Rapid: Every person who told me about that from the BW scene wasn't informed about the full picture, see outscar. At first it sounded as if one person said something about him that came across slightly creepy. A couple of hundred posts (!) later, from which you have to extrapolate the relevant links (!), help you to understand your point of view. So much for the presentation alone. I for one still haven't seen the post with the dick pic thing, but at this point it doesn't matter any more.
Rapid does need professional help, so much is obvious from all he wrote. I just hope the receivers of his creepy shit show aren't, for the lack of a better word, hurt and hopefully can deal with that. It's quite clear Rapid has an emotional problem, behaves egotistical and cowardly towards the other gender and people he thinks of as less worthy (the archive.org article is a real eye-opener). He's probably not the only struggling nerd that behaves this way. The real question is: how do "we" deal with that? What helps the women? I can't tell, I'm not female, I never received anything like that.
By now any somewhat active member knows about what Rapid did and he will probably get teased to no end with his Penis-stories whenever he starts to post or interact again. At the least, if he ever has the real chance to get his message out. That is, if his "character" is strong enough to face the shit storm he created. Not speaking of what happens if a future employer will google his name.
At some point you get to think about how much is too much in many directions. Do you want him to be life time banned? Does he get the option to at least apologize publicly and individually to the women he creeped out? Do you want his digital foot print to ruin his life for a very, very long time? To answer that, you have to compare his actions to what helps these women, the "community" (in what ever way you define that) and your own view on justice. I for one am pro exclusion, but would give him the opportunity to work on his behaviour. Punishment can only go so far, before it gets draconic. I'd also be very cautious to mystify Rapid as person who has any weight in this scene. His opinion doesn't matter, he is a random person who casts things. Nearly nobody gives a shit about his words outside of an actual game, he holds no factual power, he can't ruin your "professional" or "esports" life. I don't want to send the signal that any organiser, caster, player or otherwise "important" community figure needs so many women to come forward. If someone behaves like a weird creep, you can simply tell, nobody will stigmatize you as "the typical attention whore". At least I hope we're at that point already.
At the same time, I hope some people reflect on seemingly harmless trash talk - and that gets in both directions. That's where people like Cele and outscar are coming from: punishment needs to be handed out in relation to what happened. What would help everyone in the instance of Rapid the most would really be him seeking help and publicly admits what he did, while the rest of us works hard enough to not help create a narrative in which a poor incel was cast out by white knights that only helps fuel more hate towards women.
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On June 26 2020 13:48 Alpharius wrote:
Just my 2 cents: regarding the people who demand proof from victims, I don't think that they don't believe the story of the victim or insinuate that no one should speak up without proof. It's that they will not take any action against the supposedly perpetrator without any proof/evidence. I've seen some people saying that you can still believe and sympathize with the victim while not attacking the accused, which is the most reasonable response I seen so far. But then if we think of sexual harassment/abuse as serious crimes, is not taking any action against supposedly perpetrator really the right thing? We can all talk about how serious problems are, but not doing anything seem undermine the support for the victim.
I think the real question we need to discuss more is that how we can treat both side fairly, and on what basis should we take action in these situation, people seems to agree to give support to victim who speak out, but how should we treat the accused and what proof/evidence or testimony.... are needed for the community to take appropriate action.
And of course how can we build a system to support the victim in these situation, though honestly I don't think this forum is an appropriate platform to discuss this.
I think this is where most people stand, including myself. There are allies that want to support the victims 100% upfront because there is so much history in play, victims are fighting an uphill battle. People understand that there are massive pressures and systems at play and for someone(s) to come out and accuse is reason enough to take their word for it. No one is denying this. The systems and thought patterns of modern society are highly advantageous for the accused/men and without strong and swift support for the victims, nothing will change.
As I'm trying to understand both sides, I feel this is where the disconnect is. People want to support the victims, but it currently feels like supporting the victims without "fair trial" feels like you're sentencing the accused prematurely. How do you define "fair trial" in these scenarios? Where do you draw the line? Is this even the right line of thinking? There are no clear answers. This is my guess on why there's so much friction on this topic. Personally, I think the testimonies against Rapid (and all the others) are strong and that he's guilty, but I will still hear him out before casting any final judgement.
eSportsJohn had a nice heartfelt speech about humanity earlier and while I didn't agree with everything, it did help me see that his focus is to listen and support the victims first...and that supporting victims first doesn't necessarily mean you're sentencing the accused. I've been thinking about what he said and I think it's on the right track to real solutions.
This is all just an oversimplification though, the reality is messy and the right solutions are not yet clear.
I completely agree with your points about "the real question" and how we can build a system to support victims (past, present, and future). I also agree that this forum is not the right platform.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 26 2020 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 08:42 AttackZerg wrote:
I repeat. You came to a thread about real people talking about very serious stuff.
And you made a false accusation as a way of defending someone.
You don't get to do that and pretend you are here for the love of open discourse and the betterment of the culture. People think by indulging posters like Char, Cele, deacon, etc in pretending they are after equitable justice (they aren't) it will conclude with them having a moment of clarity they wouldn't have if they were simply shunned and forced to reflect if they wanted to be welcome in public gaming spaces. The truth as I see it is (and this isn't limited to this specific set of circumstances) is that, instead, it perpetuates the status quo. I think folks like Viper and John have it right on this one. Just to be clear though, that doesn't mean there aren't people that are genuinely learning right now. As I think puppykiller + Show Spoiler +(I do hope there's some redeeming aspect of that tag or you consider changing it lol) mentioned, a lot of us grew up in very toxic spaces and have a lot of unlearning to do (myself included). The longer/more you have these kind of tough conversations that require deep introspection and reconciling some foul ish one might have done in the past (perhaps not fully grasping the depravity for many reasons) the easier it gets to spot the people that are basically "concern trolling" vs the people that are genuinely learning why what they think is valid concern for justice and fair treatment is actually, at best, being a useful idiot for abusers looking to concern troll in defense of other abusers (or worse intentionally protecting abusers with more discretion than those in focus at the moment)
You have no idea what I want, what I think and I seriously doubt you came closer to the other, but hey, let's change the people! And not by civilized discussion and arguments but by removing them from community because that's what helps and changes people mind. Everything has to be based on my view and noone elses or we kick them out!
Did I understand you correctly?
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First and foremost I want to send my support to all affected by malicious and toxic people.
It should go without saying that a ton of decisions aren't acceptable and actions should be taken as soon as possible not only because of the victims but also the sinners who will have a chance to repent sooner and fix their imperfections.
A lot has been said and everyone's voice should be heard but it sadly isn't many times.
Who is going to be the final judge and for what?
We have different laws in different countries which all should be in perfect sync with God and his son Jesus but that sadly is not the case!
When things get out of hand people go to jail for a reason!
The woman on my heart for over a year now is a respected police officer from a first world country and has had a massive sinful stalker for years who was her dear friend at one point in her life.
She not only can't do much about him legally because he lives in Romania but she is too ashamed to speak to someone else about it exactly because of her position of strength in society and just shrugs it off while not realizing how much its slowly destroying her.
On the other hand I have been the victim of false accusations by a woman and was taken in custody on the spot by police! After a long written explanation, broken heart and confused mind I was let free on the same day by the lead detective thankfully with a reminder to be careful what kind of people I hang around!
The woman accusing me actually started loving me after and we started living together while trying to fix our own problems.
As far as my knowledge and concerns go we are all sinners and I have proven that to myself as nobody I have encountered or heard about doesn't have faults except Jesus our Lord and saviour!
It's not a matter of accepting as much it is knowing as I have had to hear almost every philosopher to understand each and everyone of them still isn't perfect.
I have personally been censored and bashed out of TL community because I have spoken the truth and nothing but the truth and God is my witness!
I have repented publicly for many sins as I am no perfect human but trust me when I tell you Justice is not in your hands it is in the Lords!
That being said he has given us the power of the holy spirit and the devils and demons who we can't deal with, we incarcerate and pray for!
Repenting is a thing and must be done by all regardless of how big or small the sin is!
It doesn't necessarily have to be in public like I have done to set a good example for all but it must be from the heart!
I cannot comment on all the tragic stories I have heard as I do not know either side and can only sympathize with the victims as this amongst other things shouldn't be present in our day and age!
I couldn't bare to fully read some of the things they went through and its only natural that we men feel even more protective of them.
I don't want to forget and mention all the males it happens to as well as I have also had an instance where a gay older man tried to see how I was feeling about the subject! Luckily for me at that point I had dealt with a lot of abusive people so I even most likely overreacted afterwords verbally while in conversation with his daughter.
Its only evident some people should be in jail or mental institutions and not only stopped from working here or there!
I advise for the people who felt their loved ones must take legal actions against predators to support them fully and be there morally every second as going through a process like that isn't easy.
Last but not least I feel obliged to speak on Rapids case as I have grown to love and know him from our casting crew.
I absolutely do not condone any of his behaviour towards females in the instances mentioned but I also don't condone a lot of my personal behaviour towards females in past years although I have had good intentions in my mind....
I might have slapped him in my atheist days if I overheard him making a woman uncomfortable but that would make me no less of a sinner.
How much is too much and are we aware of the perfect legal terms that exist for every action?
From the testimonies I've read on his case some of the girls owned him in their response and he was the laughing stalk which was known by many people it seems.
Where are all the teams and members and friends that might have known then to help support and speak out more if public shaming wasn't enough?
To me it sounds like his messed up sinful thoughts were working on some sinful girls if he kept using the same things over and over again....
Its sad it really is but is it rape? Is it abuse of power if it was well known and spoken by many people?
Did he not apologize or leave it alone when he felt you aren't on the same vibe? Did he touch you with no consent sexually?
How many toxic comments complimented with cursing words do we have to keep listening to here?
Do your loved ones and friends not read this forum or do we feel ok with certain types of behaviour only.
People commit suicide over internet torture and judging so be careful how hard you hit the hammer and on who.
We are all far from perfect but we all MUST change in the name of good and God.
Morals and laws and spirituality are built on God and nothing else!
I hope everyone learns their lesson and everyone finds peace.
#JusticeForAll
#JesusIsTheWay
#MercyGod
#Staysafe
User was banned for this post.
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On June 26 2020 16:07 NeMu555 wrote:
First and foremost I want to send my support to all affected by malicious and toxic people.
It should go without saying that a ton of decisions aren't acceptable and actions should be taken as soon as possible not only because of the victims but also the sinners who will have a chance to repent sooner and fix their imperfections.
A lot has been said and everyone's voice should be heard but it sadly isn't many times.
Who is going to be the final judge and for what?
We have different laws in different countries which all should be in perfect sync with God and his son Jesus but that sadly is not the case!
When things get out of hand people go to jail for a reason!
The woman on my heart for over a year now is a respected police officer from a first world country and has had a massive sinful stalker for years who was her dear friend at one point in her life.
She not only can't do much about him legally because he lives in Romania but she is too ashamed to speak to someone else about it exactly because of her position of strength in society and just shrugs it off while not realizing how much its slowly destroying her.
On the other hand I have been the victim of false accusations by a woman and was taken in custody on the spot by police! After a long written explanation, broken heart and confused mind I was let free on the same day by the lead detective thankfully with a reminder to be careful what kind of people I hang around!
The woman accusing me actually started loving me after and we started living together while trying to fix our own problems.
As far as my knowledge and concerns go we are all sinners and I have proven that to myself as nobody I have encountered or heard about doesn't have faults except Jesus our Lord and saviour!
It's not a matter of accepting as much it is knowing as I have had to hear almost every philosopher to understand each and everyone of them still isn't perfect.
I have personally been censored and bashed out of TL community because I have spoken the truth and nothing but the truth and God is my witness!
I have repented publicly for many sins as I am no perfect human but trust me when I tell you Justice is not in your hands it is in the Lords!
That being said he has given us the power of the holy spirit and the devils and demons who we can't deal with, we incarcerate and pray for!
Repenting is a thing and must be done by all regardless of how big or small the sin is!
It doesn't necessarily have to be in public like I have done to set a good example for all but it must be from the heart!
I cannot comment on all the tragic stories I have heard as I do not know either side and can only sympathize with the victims as this amongst other things shouldn't be present in our day and age!
I couldn't bare to fully read some of the things they went through and its only natural that we men feel even more protective of them.
I don't want to forget and mention all the males it happens to as well as I have also had an instance where a gay older man tried to see how I was feeling about the subject! Luckily for me at that point I had dealt with a lot of abusive people so I even most likely overreacted afterwords verbally while in conversation with his daughter.
Its only evident some people should be in jail or mental institutions and not only stopped from working here or there!
I advise for the people who felt their loved ones must take legal actions against predators to support them fully and be there morally every second as going through a process like that isn't easy.
Last but not least I feel obliged to speak on Rapids case as I have grown to love and know him from our casting crew.
I absolutely do not condone any of his behaviour towards females in the instances mentioned but I also don't condone a lot of my personal behaviour towards females in past years although I have had good intentions in my mind....
I might have slapped him in my atheist days if I overheard him making a woman uncomfortable but that would make me no less of a sinner.
How much is too much and are we aware of the perfect legal terms that exist for every action?
From the testimonies I've read on his case some of the girls owned him in their response and he was the laughing stalk which was known by many people it seems.
Where are all the teams and members and friends that might have known then to help support and speak out more if public shaming wasn't enough?
To me it sounds like his messed up sinful thoughts were working on some sinful girls if he kept using the same things over and over again....
Its sad it really is but is it rape? Is it abuse of power if it was well known and spoken by many people?
Did he not apologize or leave it alone when he felt you aren't on the same vibe? Did he touch you with no consent sexually?
How many toxic comments complimented with cursing words do we have to keep listening to here?
Do your loved ones and friends not read this forum or do we feel ok with certain types of behaviour only.
People commit suicide over internet torture and judging so be careful how hard you hit the hammer and on who.
We are all far from perfect but we all MUST change in the name of good and God.
Morals and laws and spirituality are built on God and nothing else!
I hope everyone learns their lesson and everyone finds peace.
#JusticeForAll
#JesusIsTheWay
#MercyGod
#Staysafe
Can we please leave religion out of this?
At least here in Germany the katholic church has a pretty long and bad history of child abuse. Also not everyone here is christian.
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On June 26 2020 16:06 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 08:42 AttackZerg wrote:
I repeat. You came to a thread about real people talking about very serious stuff.
And you made a false accusation as a way of defending someone.
You don't get to do that and pretend you are here for the love of open discourse and the betterment of the culture. People think by indulging posters like Char, Cele, deacon, etc in pretending they are after equitable justice (they aren't) it will conclude with them having a moment of clarity they wouldn't have if they were simply shunned and forced to reflect if they wanted to be welcome in public gaming spaces. The truth as I see it is (and this isn't limited to this specific set of circumstances) is that, instead, it perpetuates the status quo. I think folks like Viper and John have it right on this one. Just to be clear though, that doesn't mean there aren't people that are genuinely learning right now. As I think puppykiller + Show Spoiler +(I do hope there's some redeeming aspect of that tag or you consider changing it lol) mentioned, a lot of us grew up in very toxic spaces and have a lot of unlearning to do (myself included). The longer/more you have these kind of tough conversations that require deep introspection and reconciling some foul ish one might have done in the past (perhaps not fully grasping the depravity for many reasons) the easier it gets to spot the people that are basically "concern trolling" vs the people that are genuinely learning why what they think is valid concern for justice and fair treatment is actually, at best, being a useful idiot for abusers looking to concern troll in defense of other abusers (or worse intentionally protecting abusers with more discretion than those in focus at the moment) You have no idea what I want, what I think and I seriously doubt you came closer to the other, but hey, let's change the people! And not by civilized discussion and arguments but by removing them from community because that's what helps and changes people mind. Everything has to be based on my view and noone elses or we kick them out! Did I understand you correctly?
I'm very familiar with the underlying reasoning that leads to the series of posts you've made here. Major aspect of what this is all about is that your (and those that have articulated similar positions) perception of "civilized discussion" and expectations for a civil society are part of the problem.
What I'm saying is that letting it be known that it isn't welcome in our communities is what the women that have spoken up (generally about the pervasive nature of misogyny and sexual misconduct) have expressed is what they want. I welcome and encourage you to listen to them and act accordingly.
Unless you're literally a child (and a young one at that, which I admittedly don't often consider here) I'm not going to coddle or convince you to act like an adult capable of treating women (or anyone) with basic human dignity. You're either going to do it or not and if not I'm going to express my contempt as long as it's tolerated by others.
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On June 26 2020 14:24 waiting2Bbanned wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 22:20 Rainmansc wrote:
So BLM is over and we go over on public execution again? Im very sad to hear those things IF they are true but these things should not be a public debate but rather a thing that the police should sort out. Its very easy to destroys somebodies innocent life this way and this should never be the way we should be living together. What do you mean BLM is over? Systemic racism has finally ended? When, 10 seconds ago? Please let the rest of the United States know; we're not aware of this yet. Also, the fact that you would use the phrase "public execution" is incredibly ironic, given the literal public executions of black lives that most of the country is still outraged over. Awful. IMHO we should consider the cultural implications of Rainmansc being from the Netherlands when discussing his take on BLM and racism, since it is prefectly appropriate for the Dutch to celebrate Black Pete in blackface every Christmas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#:~:text=Nickelodeon in the Netherlands also,with soot on their faces.
Taking slight offense here, as another Dutchy
The tradition you refer to has been under heavy fire for years, way before the BLM movement started, and it has seen significant changes since then (although not enough yet, it's a work in progress).
You don't know what point of view Rainmansc holds in that debate. And you can't judge people based solely on a tradition of the country they live in, if you don't know their stance towards that tradition.
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