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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 26 2020 21:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 17:26 deacon.frost wrote:On June 26 2020 16:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:On June 26 2020 16:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 16:06 deacon.frost wrote:On June 26 2020 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 08:42 AttackZerg wrote:
I repeat. You came to a thread about real people talking about very serious stuff.
And you made a false accusation as a way of defending someone.
You don't get to do that and pretend you are here for the love of open discourse and the betterment of the culture. People think by indulging posters like Char, Cele, deacon, etc in pretending they are after equitable justice (they aren't) it will conclude with them having a moment of clarity they wouldn't have if they were simply shunned and forced to reflect if they wanted to be welcome in public gaming spaces. The truth as I see it is (and this isn't limited to this specific set of circumstances) is that, instead, it perpetuates the status quo. I think folks like Viper and John have it right on this one. Just to be clear though, that doesn't mean there aren't people that are genuinely learning right now. As I think puppykiller + Show Spoiler +(I do hope there's some redeeming aspect of that tag or you consider changing it lol) mentioned, a lot of us grew up in very toxic spaces and have a lot of unlearning to do (myself included). The longer/more you have these kind of tough conversations that require deep introspection and reconciling some foul ish one might have done in the past (perhaps not fully grasping the depravity for many reasons) the easier it gets to spot the people that are basically "concern trolling" vs the people that are genuinely learning why what they think is valid concern for justice and fair treatment is actually, at best, being a useful idiot for abusers looking to concern troll in defense of other abusers (or worse intentionally protecting abusers with more discretion than those in focus at the moment) You have no idea what I want, what I think and I seriously doubt you came closer to the other, but hey, let's change the people! And not by civilized discussion and arguments but by removing them from community because that's what helps and changes people mind. Everything has to be based on my view and noone elses or we kick them out! Did I understand you correctly? I'm very familiar with the underlying reasoning that leads to the series of posts you've made here. Major aspect of what this is all about is that your (and those that have articulated similar positions) perception of "civilized discussion" and expectations for a civil society are part of the problem. What I'm saying is that letting it be known that it isn't welcome in our communities is what the women that have spoken up (generally about the pervasive nature of misogyny and sexual misconduct) have expressed is what they want. I welcome and encourage you to listen to them and act accordingly. Unless you're literally a child (and a young one at that, which I admittedly don't often consider here) I'm not going to coddle or convince you to act like an adult capable of treating women (or anyone) with basic human dignity. You're either going to do it or not and if not I'm going to express my contempt as long as it's tolerated by others. Are you the one who decides what's welcome in the communities? I speak my part, but I'm only one voice. Other's have shared their part as well. But my opinion is that the community is better with more Red_Vipers and John's and less yous until you sound more like them. I don't know you, so I care about you as much as any other stranger, which is to say I love (in the Freirean sense) you. What I hope we learn from this moment, is that the views you've espoused aren't welcome, but you are if you can disentangle the two. what exact views are yout talking about and why you edit the quote and ignore the 2nd part of the post?
My views on the fact that accused people should have some way of defense? That people should not judge others hastily and have some patience? Or what exactly? Quote the things you have issues with, otherwise you're just suppresing voices you don't like. For some reason you think what I think which is not what I think. I defended mostly the underlined part, so quote me, without the edits, please. That's Greenhorizons for you. He will strawman the hell out of you and rather argue you are that imagined strawman than you as a person.
For the record I agree with neb (other than him not being fit for discussing politics). My version was just a lot less polite. Thanks for taking the time to comment on this important topic with a shitpost about me though. True to form.
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On June 26 2020 15:33 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 08:10 EsportsJohn wrote:
A lot of people on the TL forums showing their true colors this week.... It's a very complicated issue that's presented not the most structured way to a highly mixed community. First off, the story about the girl who got nearly raped is sickening, in an ideal world I'd wish to see that prosecuted in an official channel. That needs to go without saying. It also doesn't need much to agree that any of the women coming forward receive solidarity from the community.
I feel like this statement could be interpreted in one of two (or more) ways, and I'm not sure which one you mean:
1. It also doesn't need much to agree that any of the women coming forward SHOULD RECEIVE solidarity from the community (I agree, although we should generalize that to *anyone* coming forward, as the people coming forward haven't only been women, and everyone should be supported, regardless of their sex/gender);
2. It also doesn't need much to agree that any of the women coming forward ARE CURRENTLY RECEIVING solidarity from the community (I'm not so sure we're there yet... more and more people have been realizing that victims deserve support, as more corroborative stories come out, but there are still people who are in denial; I don't know what the ratio of accept:deny is though).
As for Rapid: Every person who told me about that from the BW scene wasn't informed about the full picture, see outscar. At first it sounded as if one person said something about him that came across slightly creepy. A couple of hundred posts (!) later, from which you have to extrapolate the relevant links (!), help you to understand your point of view. So much for the presentation alone. I for one still haven't seen the post with the dick pic thing, but at this point it doesn't matter any more.
Most of it is laid out in great detail in the OP; serendipitous has been doing a solid job of updating the first post of this thread. There are additional anecdotes throughout the thread that further confirm that Rapid says and does generally inappropriate things too, but those aren't required to move the needle against him. There is a reasonable expectation that people should certainly read the OP of a thread before posting one-liner denials; unfortunately, some posters (perhaps mainly new posters or trolls) didn't.
The real question is: how do "we" deal with that? What helps the women?
Again, generalizing "women" to "victims", to be inclusive...
Proactively: Help create an environment that nips offensive and inappropriate behavior and actions in the bud, like speaking out against people who make offensive jokes (especially about individuals). It can be very tough to stand up to a friend (or anyone, really), but you don't need to worry about a huge, grandstanding, public stunt; a lot of this can be addressed in the everyday dialogues we have with one another, about what's not really cool to say, and why it isn't cool to say it. This link can help elaborate on sketchy scenarios that are often misunderstood as acceptable, when in reality they are not: https://medium.com/@keepingitKyle/flirting-for-morons-258b92ff614b
It simply isn't enough to not be the actual abuser (or sexist, or racist, etc.). One has to actively be anti-abuse (or anti-sexist, or anti-racist, etc.). It's the difference between being non-X (I didn't do it) and anti-X (I'm trying to prevent it from happening). There are no innocent bystanders when it comes to the perpetuation of things like abuse and harassment; staying silent when you could have addressed something in the past means you enabled it. That doesn't make you the world's worst person, but we can all do a better job of being a voice of reason; yours could be the voice that resonates most with someone who otherwise assumes their bad behavior is acceptable... yours could be the voice that ultimately stops a situation from escalating. Education and prevention are the best-case scenarios. We also can't assume that every victim or potential victim has the capacity to say No (more on that in the above link, too), so this is why it's a community effort. We can all do something.
Reactively: After the abuse has happened and it's being revealed by the victims, believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. + Show Spoiler +Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. + Show Spoiler +Seriously, believe their stories.
Here's my general understanding of the conditional sequence, and why it's important for all of us to play a role:
Having a community that takes abuse seriously, actively works to prevent and address these issues, and supports victims -> Fewer people will be abusers, and a higher percentage of the remaining victims will come forward -> Some potential abusers will realize that what they want to do isn't okay, and those who are still abusers will be held accountable -> Less abuse overall, and a safer, better community for everyone.
In terms of accountability, we should consider contacting organizations that the abusers represent, not rehiring them for relevant gigs, and other ways to totally remove them from the limelight. There needs to be consequences. Excommunication sounds scary and extremist, but having the person continue abusing people within our scene is way worse. Those who are friendly with the abuser should consider assisting the abuser in obtaining the help they need (starting with a better education on the matter), and there are many resources to help people realize what are, and are not, good social practices (again, starting with the link above).
Of course, we also need to make sure the victims are okay, and listen to them about what they need and want from our community. Some victims see abuse as an isolated incident and compartmentalize the abuser away from the rest of the community, while other victims necessarily lose trust in the entire scene, due to systemic issues. We have a responsibility to help rebuild that trust with the victims (if they're willing to give *us* another chance), by listening to them and what advice they could give us to do better. We can all do better.
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Northern Ireland25403 Posts
On June 26 2020 19:21 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 19:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 19:04 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 26 2020 18:10 Nebuchad wrote:
One of the reasons why I'm not fit to discuss politics is that I have a lot of trouble imagining that people are actually honest when they say deeply nonsensical stuff.
I'm reading something that sounds like "Oh, I am primarily concerned about myself, I'm more likely to be accused of sexual harassment than to be sexually harassed, so I primarily want the accused to be treated fairly, but that's not a politically correct thing to say so I'm just going to pretend I want fairness generally."
+ Show Spoiler +I think people can be honest and still think this way. The one thing that's important to notice is that these people don't look at the issue from the victim's POV, like at all.
Because they make no attempt to identify with the accuser, they immediately identify with the accused and are looking at it from that POV, and wondering whether they are innocent, and then imagining how they would feel if they were innocent. It makes sense, its just slightly warped because there's absolutely zero concern for the accuser. On the other side of this, I've noticed that when I start posting about actual solutions... like real world things that we can do as a community, no-one seems even remotely interested in talking about that. This leads me to believe that there are people in here (not naming any names) who's main concern is looking righteous, which is the problem with cancel culture. There's a certain amount of dishonesty going on there also. What are you talking about? If you read the post you quoted you will discover all the answers to this question  Its probably just me being frustrated at being ignored.
I may have missed some of your suggestions. It’s a bit difficult to ponder more tangible solutions when a sizeable chunk of people here don’t consider sending unsolicited dick pics to be harassment, or generally are sidestepping things in other ways.
And that’s here on TL with both a generally decent standard of posting and strict moderation, god knows what it’s like elsewhere.
The simplest and simultaneously the hardest solution is for the culture of our community shifting so that it effectively self-polices. Of course other things can be done in the interim.
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On June 26 2020 21:23 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 19:21 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 26 2020 19:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 19:04 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 26 2020 18:10 Nebuchad wrote:
One of the reasons why I'm not fit to discuss politics is that I have a lot of trouble imagining that people are actually honest when they say deeply nonsensical stuff.
I'm reading something that sounds like "Oh, I am primarily concerned about myself, I'm more likely to be accused of sexual harassment than to be sexually harassed, so I primarily want the accused to be treated fairly, but that's not a politically correct thing to say so I'm just going to pretend I want fairness generally."
+ Show Spoiler +I think people can be honest and still think this way. The one thing that's important to notice is that these people don't look at the issue from the victim's POV, like at all.
Because they make no attempt to identify with the accuser, they immediately identify with the accused and are looking at it from that POV, and wondering whether they are innocent, and then imagining how they would feel if they were innocent. It makes sense, its just slightly warped because there's absolutely zero concern for the accuser. On the other side of this, I've noticed that when I start posting about actual solutions... like real world things that we can do as a community, no-one seems even remotely interested in talking about that. This leads me to believe that there are people in here (not naming any names) who's main concern is looking righteous, which is the problem with cancel culture. There's a certain amount of dishonesty going on there also. What are you talking about? If you read the post you quoted you will discover all the answers to this question Its probably just me being frustrated at being ignored. I may have missed some of your suggestions. It’s a bit difficult to ponder more tangible solutions when a sizeable chunk of people here don’t consider sending unsolicited dick pics to be harassment, or generally are sidestepping things in other ways. And that’s here on TL with both a generally decent standard of posting and strict moderation, god knows what it’s like elsewhere. The simplest and simultaneously the hardest solution is for the culture of our community shifting so that it effectively self-polices. Of course other things can be done in the interim.
My suggestions were basically pressuring companies within esports to have better/more transparent sexual harassment policies, and make them show what steps they are taking to a) train their staff about sexual harassment b) support people who come forward with accusations like these.
Social media justice is a kind of last resort imo, where every other system has failed the victim. Obviously its hard to root out this stuff when often there's no evidence, but companies must be able to show that they are proactively protecting their employees, and this includes organizers protecting visitors and self employed people at their events.
There are steps that could be taken to at least reduce the frequency and the impact of this problem but clearly these people coming forward don't feel like they are being listened to by the people whose responsibility it is to listen.
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On June 26 2020 21:23 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 19:21 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 26 2020 19:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 19:04 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 26 2020 18:10 Nebuchad wrote:
One of the reasons why I'm not fit to discuss politics is that I have a lot of trouble imagining that people are actually honest when they say deeply nonsensical stuff.
I'm reading something that sounds like "Oh, I am primarily concerned about myself, I'm more likely to be accused of sexual harassment than to be sexually harassed, so I primarily want the accused to be treated fairly, but that's not a politically correct thing to say so I'm just going to pretend I want fairness generally."
+ Show Spoiler +I think people can be honest and still think this way. The one thing that's important to notice is that these people don't look at the issue from the victim's POV, like at all.
Because they make no attempt to identify with the accuser, they immediately identify with the accused and are looking at it from that POV, and wondering whether they are innocent, and then imagining how they would feel if they were innocent. It makes sense, its just slightly warped because there's absolutely zero concern for the accuser. On the other side of this, I've noticed that when I start posting about actual solutions... like real world things that we can do as a community, no-one seems even remotely interested in talking about that. This leads me to believe that there are people in here (not naming any names) who's main concern is looking righteous, which is the problem with cancel culture. There's a certain amount of dishonesty going on there also. What are you talking about? If you read the post you quoted you will discover all the answers to this question Its probably just me being frustrated at being ignored. I may have missed some of your suggestions. It’s a bit difficult to ponder more tangible solutions when a sizeable chunk of people here don’t consider sending unsolicited dick pics to be harassment, or generally are sidestepping things in other ways. And that’s here on TL with both a generally decent standard of posting and strict moderation, god knows what it’s like elsewhere.
The simplest and simultaneously the hardest solution is for the culture of our community shifting so that it effectively self-polices. Of course other things can be done in the interim.
Horrific and dispiriting
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On June 26 2020 21:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 15:33 GeckoXp wrote:On June 26 2020 08:10 EsportsJohn wrote:
A lot of people on the TL forums showing their true colors this week.... It's a very complicated issue that's presented not the most structured way to a highly mixed community. First off, the story about the girl who got nearly raped is sickening, in an ideal world I'd wish to see that prosecuted in an official channel. That needs to go without saying. It also doesn't need much to agree that any of the women coming forward receive solidarity from the community. I feel like this statement could be interpreted in one of two (or more) ways, and I'm not sure which one you mean: 1. It also doesn't need much to agree that any of the women coming forward SHOULD RECEIVE solidarity from the community (I agree, although we should generalize that to *anyone* coming forward, as the people coming forward haven't only been women, and everyone should be supported, regardless of their sex/gender); 2. It also doesn't need much to agree that any of the women coming forward ARE CURRENTLY RECEIVING solidarity from the community (I'm not so sure we're there yet... more and more people have been realizing that victims deserve support, as more corroborative stories come out, but there are still people who are in denial; I don't know what the ratio of accept:deny is though). Show nested quote +As for Rapid: Every person who told me about that from the BW scene wasn't informed about the full picture, see outscar. At first it sounded as if one person said something about him that came across slightly creepy. A couple of hundred posts (!) later, from which you have to extrapolate the relevant links (!), help you to understand your point of view. So much for the presentation alone. I for one still haven't seen the post with the dick pic thing, but at this point it doesn't matter any more. Holy moly dude, you're litterly on every page of this thread. Youve nothing better to do? Most of it is laid out in great detail in the OP; serendipitous has been doing a solid job of updating the first post of this thread. There are additional anecdotes throughout the thread that further confirm that Rapid says and does generally inappropriate things too, but those aren't required to move the needle against him. There is a reasonable expectation that people should certainly read the OP of a thread before posting one-liner denials; unfortunately, some posters (perhaps mainly new posters or trolls) didn't. Again, generalizing "women" to "victims", to be inclusive... Proactively: Help create an environment that nips offensive and inappropriate behavior and actions in the bud, like speaking out against people who make offensive jokes (especially about individuals). It can be very tough to stand up to a friend (or anyone, really), but you don't need to worry about a huge, grandstanding, public stunt; a lot of this can be addressed in the everyday dialogues we have with one another, about what's not really cool to say, and why it isn't cool to say it. This link can help elaborate on sketchy scenarios that are often misunderstood as acceptable, when in reality they are not: https://medium.com/@keepingitKyle/flirting-for-morons-258b92ff614b It simply isn't enough to not be the actual abuser (or sexist, or racist, etc.). One has to actively be anti-abuse (or anti-sexist, or anti-racist, etc.). It's the difference between being non-X (I didn't do it) and anti-X (I'm trying to prevent it from happening). There are no innocent bystanders when it comes to the perpetuation of things like abuse and harassment; staying silent when you could have addressed something in the past means you enabled it. That doesn't make you the world's worst person, but we can all do a better job of being a voice of reason; yours could be the voice that resonates most with someone who otherwise assumes their bad behavior is acceptable... yours could be the voice that ultimately stops a situation from escalating. Education and prevention are the best-case scenarios. We also can't assume that every victim or potential victim has the capacity to say No (more on that in the above link, too), so this is why it's a community effort. We can all do something. Reactively: After the abuse has happened and it's being revealed by the victims, believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. + Show Spoiler +Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. + Show Spoiler +Seriously, believe their stories. This is automatically step one, because turning a blind eye to systemic issues means nothing will change. This doesn't mean that every accusation and allegation is going to be true (despite the vast majority of these instances being true, historically), or that no dialogue should occur, or that the abuser isn't allowed to post refuting evidence. It does mean that we recognize that victims coming forward is a huge risk for themselves and so we don't automatically dismiss them, and for every 1 person willing to share their story, there are 10 (100? 1000?) other people who don't feel comfortable doing so, for various reasons. Here's my general understanding of the conditional sequence, and why it's important for all of us to play a role: Having a community that takes abuse seriously, actively works to prevent and address these issues, and supports victims -> Fewer people will be abusers, and a higher percentage of the remaining victims will come forward -> Some potential abusers will realize that what they want to do isn't okay, and those who are still abusers will be held accountable -> Less abuse overall, and a safer, better community for everyone. In terms of accountability, we should consider contacting organizations that the abusers represent, not rehiring them for relevant gigs, and other ways to totally remove them from the limelight. There needs to be consequences. Excommunication sounds scary and extremist, but having the person continue abusing people within our scene is way worse. Those who are friendly with the abuser should consider assisting the abuser in obtaining the help they need (starting with a better education on the matter), and there are many resources to help people realize what are, and are not, good social practices (again, starting with the link above). Of course, we also need to make sure the victims are okay, and listen to them about what they need and want from our community. Some victims see abuse as an isolated incident and compartmentalize the abuser away from the rest of the community, while other victims necessarily lose trust in the entire scene, due to systemic issues. We have a responsibility to help rebuild that trust with the victims (if they're willing to give *us* another chance), by listening to them and what advice they could give us to do better. We can all do better.
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I see this thread as general 'news'. In which people are free to express opinions on the two rights in conflict: the victims, and the accused.
Some may feel that the law and public opinion tilts too much one way, some feel vice versa. Either way, there's a genuine debate for both sides to argue. And just because a majority of the community here feels strongly for one side, doesn't mean that the other side should be 'silenced' or 'watch their words'. Aside from clear violations of TL policy, there shouldn't a limit to the debate.
If this thread was instead solely for the purpose of supporting a particular cause (e.g. 'How to Protect Rights of Accused/Victim'), then perhaps there's some basis in censoring views that go against the premise/purpose of the thread.
In short, I see a wide margin of expression for this thread. (Then again, I'm not too experienced with TL policy and unspoken customary rules, so I may be wrong).
The debate has been enlightening in some parts, painful at others. But overall, I truly appreciate the passionate views of the community (regardless whether I agree or disagree with them). Sensitive issues are bound to raise the 'temperature' in the room, but I don't think we've exceeded the 'toxicity' level yet.
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On June 26 2020 21:44 Rainmansc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 21:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 26 2020 15:33 GeckoXp wrote:On June 26 2020 08:10 EsportsJohn wrote:
A lot of people on the TL forums showing their true colors this week.... It's a very complicated issue that's presented not the most structured way to a highly mixed community. First off, the story about the girl who got nearly raped is sickening, in an ideal world I'd wish to see that prosecuted in an official channel. That needs to go without saying. It also doesn't need much to agree that any of the women coming forward receive solidarity from the community. I feel like this statement could be interpreted in one of two (or more) ways, and I'm not sure which one you mean: 1. It also doesn't need much to agree that any of the women coming forward SHOULD RECEIVE solidarity from the community (I agree, although we should generalize that to *anyone* coming forward, as the people coming forward haven't only been women, and everyone should be supported, regardless of their sex/gender); 2. It also doesn't need much to agree that any of the women coming forward ARE CURRENTLY RECEIVING solidarity from the community (I'm not so sure we're there yet... more and more people have been realizing that victims deserve support, as more corroborative stories come out, but there are still people who are in denial; I don't know what the ratio of accept:deny is though). As for Rapid: Every person who told me about that from the BW scene wasn't informed about the full picture, see outscar. At first it sounded as if one person said something about him that came across slightly creepy. A couple of hundred posts (!) later, from which you have to extrapolate the relevant links (!), help you to understand your point of view. So much for the presentation alone. I for one still haven't seen the post with the dick pic thing, but at this point it doesn't matter any more. Most of it is laid out in great detail in the OP; serendipitous has been doing a solid job of updating the first post of this thread. There are additional anecdotes throughout the thread that further confirm that Rapid says and does generally inappropriate things too, but those aren't required to move the needle against him. There is a reasonable expectation that people should certainly read the OP of a thread before posting one-liner denials; unfortunately, some posters (perhaps mainly new posters or trolls) didn't. The real question is: how do "we" deal with that? What helps the women? Again, generalizing "women" to "victims", to be inclusive... Proactively: Help create an environment that nips offensive and inappropriate behavior and actions in the bud, like speaking out against people who make offensive jokes (especially about individuals). It can be very tough to stand up to a friend (or anyone, really), but you don't need to worry about a huge, grandstanding, public stunt; a lot of this can be addressed in the everyday dialogues we have with one another, about what's not really cool to say, and why it isn't cool to say it. This link can help elaborate on sketchy scenarios that are often misunderstood as acceptable, when in reality they are not: https://medium.com/@keepingitKyle/flirting-for-morons-258b92ff614b It simply isn't enough to not be the actual abuser (or sexist, or racist, etc.). One has to actively be anti-abuse (or anti-sexist, or anti-racist, etc.). It's the difference between being non-X (I didn't do it) and anti-X (I'm trying to prevent it from happening). There are no innocent bystanders when it comes to the perpetuation of things like abuse and harassment; staying silent when you could have addressed something in the past means you enabled it. That doesn't make you the world's worst person, but we can all do a better job of being a voice of reason; yours could be the voice that resonates most with someone who otherwise assumes their bad behavior is acceptable... yours could be the voice that ultimately stops a situation from escalating. Education and prevention are the best-case scenarios. We also can't assume that every victim or potential victim has the capacity to say No (more on that in the above link, too), so this is why it's a community effort. We can all do something. Reactively: After the abuse has happened and it's being revealed by the victims, believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. + Show Spoiler +Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. + Show Spoiler +Seriously, believe their stories. This is automatically step one, because turning a blind eye to systemic issues means nothing will change. This doesn't mean that every accusation and allegation is going to be true (despite the vast majority of these instances being true, historically), or that no dialogue should occur, or that the abuser isn't allowed to post refuting evidence. It does mean that we recognize that victims coming forward is a huge risk for themselves and so we don't automatically dismiss them, and for every 1 person willing to share their story, there are 10 (100? 1000?) other people who don't feel comfortable doing so, for various reasons. Here's my general understanding of the conditional sequence, and why it's important for all of us to play a role: Having a community that takes abuse seriously, actively works to prevent and address these issues, and supports victims -> Fewer people will be abusers, and a higher percentage of the remaining victims will come forward -> Some potential abusers will realize that what they want to do isn't okay, and those who are still abusers will be held accountable -> Less abuse overall, and a safer, better community for everyone. In terms of accountability, we should consider contacting organizations that the abusers represent, not rehiring them for relevant gigs, and other ways to totally remove them from the limelight. There needs to be consequences. Excommunication sounds scary and extremist, but having the person continue abusing people within our scene is way worse. Those who are friendly with the abuser should consider assisting the abuser in obtaining the help they need (starting with a better education on the matter), and there are many resources to help people realize what are, and are not, good social practices (again, starting with the link above). Of course, we also need to make sure the victims are okay, and listen to them about what they need and want from our community. Some victims see abuse as an isolated incident and compartmentalize the abuser away from the rest of the community, while other victims necessarily lose trust in the entire scene, due to systemic issues. We have a responsibility to help rebuild that trust with the victims (if they're willing to give *us* another chance), by listening to them and what advice they could give us to do better. We can all do better. Holy moly dude, you're litterly on every page of this thread. Youve nothing better to do?
You accidentally posted your one-liner response inside my quoted comment, and you didn't respond to my PM about fixing it, so I'm adjusting it here. I certainly wouldn't write something like "Holy moly dude, you're litterly on every page of this thread. Youve nothing better to do?" I feel like my posts have generally been on topic, and I don't mind responding to relevant questions in the thread and opening potential avenues for discussion. You don't need to worry about how much time I'm willing to spend on this issue, but I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on the actual content that I write.
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On June 26 2020 22:14 RKC wrote:
I see this thread as general 'news'. In which people are free to express opinions on the two rights in conflict: the victims, and the accused.
Some may feel that the law and public opinion tilts too much one way, some feel vice versa. Either way, there's a genuine debate for both sides to argue. And just because a majority of the community here feels strongly for one side, doesn't mean that the other side should be 'silenced' or 'watch their words'. Aside from clear violations of TL policy, there shouldn't a limit to the debate.
If this thread was instead solely for the purpose of supporting a particular cause (e.g. 'How to Protect Rights of Accused/Victim'), then perhaps there's some basis in censoring views that go against the premise/purpose of the thread.
In short, I see a wide margin of expression for this thread. (Then again, I'm not too experienced with TL policy and unspoken customary rules, so I may be wrong).
The debate has been enlightening in some parts, painful at others. But overall, I truly appreciate the passionate views of the community (regardless whether I agree or disagree with them). Sensitive issues are bound to raise the 'temperature' in the room, but I don't think we've exceeded the 'toxicity' level yet.
I must say, I never viewed this thread as just "news" but allways also about, how we as a community can do better in the future.
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To people on asking about tangible solutions, the one thing in my mind is enforcement of moderation in-game. Personal experiences with sc2 were never too bad, especially when compared to dota2, but there is still room for harsher moderation of racially/sexually/sectarian motivated harassment and bigotry in games. Why is it that in video games it is okay to call death and disease on others, but never in playing or refereeing junior and amateur football have I heard people say things like that. I understand that resources to moderate chat interactions are limited, but that is not some stone-chiselled truth. How moderation is enforced and how much resources are devoted to it is a choice of the company running the games, your riots, valves, blizzards. Twitch chats belong to this category, too.
As much as it is on us as players to not to be arses to each other, moderation is part of the equation too. Beyond top level statements and direct actions addressing the high-level cases, I think the grass-roots actions would make the largest difference.
While stricter attitude towards those actions doesn't mean that bad things won't happen, and the cases that have been brought forward in here aren't about in-game behaviour, I genuinely feel that creating an environment that is open and welcoming starts from what is accepted at the micro-level, in hundreds and thousands of interactions that when aggregated form the social norms on these platforms. In every case of harassment that has been brought forwards the victims are then subject to more hatred and bigotry, which carries no consequences. If we are able to lower that barrier it would hopefully make it easier for future cases to be brought forwards and taken seriously at the time. It won't make all bad things go away, but I see it as something that would be better than what we have now.
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On June 26 2020 22:14 RKC wrote:
Some may feel that the law and public opinion tilts too much one way, some feel vice versa. Either way, there's a genuine debate for both sides to argue.
At the risk of repeating myself, in my opinion you're jumping to conclusions here. I don't really think this is a debate, in the sense that the disagreement happens at the stage of premises and perspective on the world rather than in the analysis of the detailed situation. I really don't think I can convince a large quantity of people about this because I think most of them do not disagree based on a flawed reasoning.
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To be clear - Right now in the Rapid situation I think the evidence against him is strong enough with 4 different persons speaking against him that it's okay to remove him from the community unless he has actual proof that the allegations are fake.
But the notion that you should always side with the woman no matter the situation that some people in this thread have stated is complete and utter bullshit.
It happened often enough that accusations turned out to be fake and the accused ones certainly didn't deserve it in these situation.
I also haven't heard an answer to the question "If I accused you of rape, should you be treated like a rapist?" yet except ad honimens. By your own logic the answer to that question should be yes.
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On June 26 2020 22:37 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 22:14 RKC wrote:
Some may feel that the law and public opinion tilts too much one way, some feel vice versa. Either way, there's a genuine debate for both sides to argue. At the risk of repeating myself, in my opinion you're jumping to conclusions here. I don't really think this is a debate, in the sense that the disagreement happens at the stage of premises and perspective on the world rather than in the analysis of the detailed situation. I really don't think I can convince a large quantity of people about this because I think most of them do not disagree based on a flawed reasoning.
Agreed
People's bodily autonomy and dignity aren't unit hp and spell costs to be debated. You either respect them or you don't and I don't think people that don't (or those more concerned with "fairness" for the accused than the damage they've done to fellow members of their communities and remedying that) should be welcome until they reconsider that perspective. I frankly find it disappointing this has to be said.
That said, it's not my house so it's just like my opinion man.
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On June 26 2020 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:
To be clear - Right now in the Rapid situation I think the evidence against him is strong enough with 4 different persons speaking against him that it's okay to remove him from the community unless he has actual proof that the allegations are fake.
But the notion that you should always side with the woman no matter the situation that some people in this thread have stated is complete and utter bullshit.
It happened often enough that accusations turned out to be fake and the accused ones certainly didn't deserve it in these situation.
I also haven't heard an answer to the question "If I accused you of rape, should you be treated like a rapist?" yet except ad honimens. By your own logic the answer to that question should be yes.
What's happening now is that you start by disbelieving the accusation, and then if you have more information you decide that you can now believe it (for example in the case of Rapid).
What should be happening is that you start by believing the accusation, and then if you have more information you decide that you don't believe it.
But you know that already, don't you? It would be silly of you to believe that we want you to believe a woman against evidence that she's lying, don't you think?
The correct answer to "If I accused you of rape, should you be treated like a rapist?" is and will always be: "But you won't accuse me of rape, will you."
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As a person who has been subject to false allegations, I find it not OK to make headline news of this unless there's proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that the allegations are true.
While I do understand that might be harsh for people coming forward, we also should look at this from the perspective of the accused, and the fact that this is the internet. Rapids reputation is basically shot, regardless of whether these accusations are true, or false.
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On June 26 2020 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:
I also haven't heard an answer to the question "If I accused you of rape, should you be treated like a rapist?" yet except ad honimens.
I'll take a shot at answering, while avoiding ad hominem arguments. It depends on what your accusation entails. If you just post "Hey everyone, person X is a rapist", people would certainly ask you to elaborate, and people would certainly ask person X to respond. If you just post that one-liner, then I'd imagine that people wouldn't believe you, and therefore wouldn't treat person X as a rapist. There's a lot of context that goes into this, including the reasonableness of the story, potential corroboration, whether or not there is any additional evidence that can be evaluated, etc.
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On June 26 2020 22:45 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:
To be clear - Right now in the Rapid situation I think the evidence against him is strong enough with 4 different persons speaking against him that it's okay to remove him from the community unless he has actual proof that the allegations are fake.
But the notion that you should always side with the woman no matter the situation that some people in this thread have stated is complete and utter bullshit.
It happened often enough that accusations turned out to be fake and the accused ones certainly didn't deserve it in these situation.
I also haven't heard an answer to the question "If I accused you of rape, should you be treated like a rapist?" yet except ad honimens. By your own logic the answer to that question should be yes.
What's happening now is that you start by disbelieving the accusation, and then if you have more information you decide that you can now believe it (for example in the case of Rapid). What should be happening is that you start by believing the accusation, and then if you have more information you decide that you don't believe it. But you know that already, don't you? It would be silly of you to believe that we want you to believe a woman against evidence that she's lying, don't you think? The correct answer to "If I accused you of rape, should you be treated like a rapist?" is and will always be: "But you won't accuse me of rape, will you."
That's not true. What I do is believing the accusation but giving the accused one the benefit of a doubt which should NOT give me the right to crucify him on social media.
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On June 26 2020 22:50 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:
To be clear - Right now in the Rapid situation I think the evidence against him is strong enough with 4 different persons speaking against him that it's okay to remove him from the community unless he has actual proof that the allegations are fake.
But the notion that you should always side with the woman no matter the situation that some people in this thread have stated is complete and utter bullshit.
It happened often enough that accusations turned out to be fake and the accused ones certainly didn't deserve it in these situation.
I also haven't heard an answer to the question "If I accused you of rape, should you be treated like a rapist?" yet except ad honimens. By your own logic the answer to that question should be yes.
The believe all woman stance is just that you give the same credit to female victims that are given to men. So in this instance you would treat each women with the exact same respect and belief as TLO and pen got. Clearly this has not happened or this thread would be like 3 pages instead of 37.
Personally I just didn't care about the TLO/Pen accusations because the accused one was a random korean coach I don't know who probably isn't a part of this community anymore anyway.
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EPT
