|
We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 26 2020 09:15 AttackZerg wrote:
The problem with Rapid coming forward is ... if you are guilty and admit it, you can open your self up to civil and criminal consequences, like if some of his stuff happened in California.
Someone please correct me, but there's really no grounds for any civil case against Rapid here, even less criminal. Assault and harassment are very different.
If he was their employer or this happened in the context of the job, maybe.
|
Northern Ireland25812 Posts
As I’ve previously said, TLO’s, Top’s and Pengwin’s accusations don’t seem to have the skepticism as the various women who have come forward.
Why is that? Why is it seemingly easier to believe them on this issue than women?
|
On June 26 2020 09:15 AttackZerg wrote:
The problem with Rapid coming forward is ... if you are guilty and admit it, you can open your self up to civil and criminal consequences, like if some of his stuff happened in California, it could very much be taken to court and here is the even trickier part, if you come out as innocent but are guilty ... the story you give can be used against you in court if someone sues you, you can't change your story without some damn strange circumstances and remain credible.
It is very hard for anyone who is a public figure and isn't innocent to say or do anything.
I don't take his silence to mean guilt. I believe that based on the accounts.
But silence, when someone isn't very innocent is very,very complex.
Nobody in the world would advise him to publicly respond.
He is still being called by a gamer tag.
Even if he were innocent, it would do him no good to respond. A lot of people have already made up their minds, and his response would only reignite interest in the issue and add fuel to the fire.
It's a situation where regardless of whether he is guilty or innocent, his best move would still be to lay low.
|
On June 26 2020 09:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
As I’ve previously said, TLO’s, Top’s and Pengwin’s accusations don’t seem to have the skepticism as the various women who have come forward.
Why is that? Why is it seemingly easier to believe them on this issue than women?
Most people don't know really who those women are, whereas TLO and Top are established community figures. Not saying that relative unknowns are necessarily less trustworthy than well known figures, but that is just how most communities work.
If a woman with greater standing in the community, for example scarlett came forward with a story, she would have the same credibility as TLO and Top. So please don't make this an issue of gender because it isnt.
|
On June 26 2020 09:26 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 09:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 26 2020 09:15 AttackZerg wrote:
The problem with Rapid coming forward is ... if you are guilty and admit it, you can open your self up to civil and criminal consequences, like if some of his stuff happened in California, it could very much be taken to court and here is the even trickier part, if you come out as innocent but are guilty ... the story you give can be used against you in court if someone sues you, you can't change your story without some damn strange circumstances and remain credible.
It is very hard for anyone who is a public figure and isn't innocent to say or do anything.
I don't take his silence to mean guilt. I believe that based on the accounts.
But silence, when someone isn't very innocent is very,very complex.
Nobody in the world would advise him to publicly respond.
He is still being called by a gamer tag.
I feel like you're overlooking the option that the guilty party actually accepts consequences and punishments for being guilty of abusing several people, whether that means rehabilitation or whatever else. I mean, you're talking about how hard it is for an abuser to lie his way out of a situation, as if we should be sympathetic towards that proposition in the first place. And I think most people here have literally asked him to publicly respond. I do not feel sorry for how hard it is. I was responding to the thirst for him to do so. He made the bed he sleeps in. I have only expressed empathy for victims here. Edit: Forgot to respond to this part. I did TOTALLY overlook the idea of someone doing .... the right thing. You are entirely correct, thank you.
Understood. I appreciate the clarification!
On June 26 2020 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 08:42 AttackZerg wrote:
I repeat. You came to a thread about real people talking about very serious stuff.
And you made a false accusation as a way of defending someone.
You don't get to do that and pretend you are here for the love of open discourse and the betterment of the culture. People think by indulging posters like Char, Cele, deacon, etc in pretending they are after equitable justice (they aren't) it will conclude with them having a moment of clarity they wouldn't have if they were simply shunned and forced to reflect if they wanted to be welcome in public gaming spaces. The truth as I see it is (and this isn't limited to this specific set of circumstances) is that, instead, it perpetuates the status quo. I think folks like Viper and John have it right on this one. Just to be clear though, that doesn't mean there aren't people that are genuinely learning right now. As I think puppykiller + Show Spoiler +(I do hope there's some redeeming aspect of that tag or you consider changing it lol) mentioned, a lot of us grew up in very toxic spaces and have a lot of unlearning to do (myself included). The longer/more you have these kind of tough conversations that require deep introspection and reconciling some foul ish one might have done in the past (perhaps not fully grasping the depravity for many reasons) the easier it gets to spot the people that are basically "concern trolling" vs the people that are genuinely learning why what they think is valid concern for justice and fair treatment is actually, at best, being a useful idiot for abusers looking to concern troll in defense of other abusers (or worse intentionally protecting abusers with more discretion than those in focus at the moment)
I've actually been speaking to a lot of my friends lately to figure out how to best pick and choose my battles, when it comes to engaging in debates and arguing with potential trolls. The overwhelming consensus was basically "If the other person seems to be arguing in good faith, then it's likely worth the conversation; if you get the feeling that they're just being contrarian simply to be an asshole, then don't waste your time or energy on them."
While I think that's generally good advice, I find myself even engaging with potential trolls (or people with very superficial or weak or fallacious arguments) for a variety of reasons. My two main objectives for taking part in dialogues is for me to learn something and for me to potentially influence someone else. If the other person is dug in and clearly unwilling to change their mind, there could very well be people lurking/reading the conversation that are on the fence; I could potentially persuade those people, especially if my points come across as sensible and the "opponent" comes off as irrational or douchey. I've happily received many PMs from other people who have followed a discussion and said just that, which is incredibly validating. For better or for worse, I try to see every conversation as a potential opportunity to learn something and to teach something, no matter how futile it appears.
|
Northern Ireland25812 Posts
On June 26 2020 09:46 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 09:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
As I’ve previously said, TLO’s, Top’s and Pengwin’s accusations don’t seem to have the skepticism as the various women who have come forward.
Why is that? Why is it seemingly easier to believe them on this issue than women? Most people don't know really who those women are, whereas TLO and Top are established community figures. Not saying that relative unknowns are necessarily less trustworthy than well known figures, but that is just how most communities work. If a woman with greater standing in the community, for example scarlett came forward with a story, she would have the same credibility as TLO and Top. So please don't make this an issue of gender because it isnt.
Would Scarlett? She’s had to put up with a lot of shit over the years.
Top hasn’t been particularly relevant in the scene for 7/8 years in terms of GSL placings. He made a Code S recently but he’s not a particularly prominent figure in the foreign scene anyway.
|
I know I'm relatively new to TL and don't really post, but I thought of it as important to leave my thoughts on this thread here after reading it all. As someone who loves Starcraft it sucks hearing that shitty things have happened in the background of the scene.
I just wanted to add that, in a way, I can understand not wanting to ruin someone's reputation and that with these stories (and I think it's important they be called stories, rather than accusations, because these women and men aren't necessarily coming out to attack their harasser/abuser, but coming out to tell their stories) coming out can do harm to someone's reputation even without us (the public) condemning whoever was accused. However, I think this fear of a tarnished reputation is part of the larger problem of women/men not being given effective, if any, channels of communication that can address the events that happened to them. I think its poignant to realize that if there was a way any of them could have solved this problem quietly they would have taken that option, but because that doesn't exist this means going public becomes the avenue they go to to be heard. And with anything that goes public there is always at risk of criticism or damnation for all parties involved.
I think one of the hurdles we have to accept going over in order to fix a system that harms people by keeping them quiet and is inadequate at addressing concerns of sexual harassment or abuse is the idea of the tarnished reputation. I don't think it fixes things going on if we make a focus out of making sure a reputation isn't so tarnished. I think the community becomes better as a whole when organizations that help make Starcraft what it is, have clear policies on sexual harassment and abuse, and places where people can speak about it. It becomes better when we speak up together (because speaking alone can be very hard) against those that harass and abuse others (I think that's something almost everyone here agrees on). Those are lofty goals, maybe, but it's the SC community so I have faith. I think if we want a future where we have less of these stories being told in public all at once, because they were kept close to the chest, then the first step needs to be believing and listening to their stories. If they believe that they will be heard and organizations listen and actually address the issues they're told about, then we are less likely to be seeing these stories that pop up in public, alongside the ire of the public against whoever is in the story. This take might be a bit naive, but as other posters have written I think it's more important that we address their stories with belief, rather than doubt and shift focus away to a tarnished reputation.
Thanks for reading. This thread has helped me to put word some of my own beliefs.
|
On June 26 2020 09:46 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 09:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
As I’ve previously said, TLO’s, Top’s and Pengwin’s accusations don’t seem to have the skepticism as the various women who have come forward.
Why is that? Why is it seemingly easier to believe them on this issue than women? Most people don't know really who those women are, whereas TLO and Top are established community figures. Not saying that relative unknowns are necessarily less trustworthy than well known figures, but that is just how most communities work. If a woman with greater standing in the community, for example scarlett came forward with a story, she would have the same credibility as TLO and Top. So please don't make this an issue of gender because it isnt.
I'm not so sure that this is the case, although obviously there are two factors here - how well-known the victims are and the sex/gender of the victim. I feel like there's literature on how likely it is that men and women are believed when it comes to the same situation though... for example, there is substantial evidence that women are believed less frequently than men when it comes to alleging pain and health issues in hospitals. Women are frequently written off as merely being too emotional.
|
On June 26 2020 09:21 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 08:36 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 08:10 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2020 07:58 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 07:52 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 07:04 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 06:47 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:
[quote]
Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally.
The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'.
The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused.
Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond.
Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation.
First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” - Maya Angelou Just incase you don't read well, that poster told you they had dealt with these issues in there own life. You then proceed to accuse them of that in order to .... what, win an argument? .... Do better. Im not accusing him, im pointed out the flaw in the argument he made. You came into a thread that is headlined with real people coming forward with stories of abuse, and in order to prove a point, you made a false accusation to prove that someone can a false accusation. That is a very cruel thing to do. If you don't realize that is cruel. Then it is either a language problem or a personal moral problem. That is fucking wack dude. Rapid is a real person too. If you do not realize it is moraly unsound to say he is a guilty prick without even letting him speak first, its a personal moral problem. Who exactly is stopping him from speaking? He has the biggest platform and more followers than all the victims combined. And at how people saying strikingly similar stories do you realize this is Bill Cosby or Harvey Wienstien all over again. At the very least go read about guilty until proven innocent and how it works, because it is not at all like you think. I am the first to say im convinced he did it if he says nothin or nothing very convincing. Im as worried it is the next Bill Cosby sure. But there is an off chance it is not. Lastly, tho you can not see that from my previous posts: im not referring to “innocent until proven guilty“ in a court-of-law sense and im aware how it is meant. Ofc you can be judged guilty even it is not strictly proven but there is sufficient evidence. Problem is: a judge or jury is weighing that evidence, they have a duty and high integrity towards it. In this internet forum, there is no impartial judge, no jury bound by oath. Its just a lot of people with of opnions. And if public opinion sways against the acused and the topic is considered closed before rapid says anything, then there is no room for the verdict “not guilty“ anymore. Which is precisely whats not right. And im saying that again, because i care for a good discussion culture on TL. Otherwise i would've stfu long ago with all the very obvious hate going my way. It is hard for many of us, myself included to see you as impartial because to us 4 accusers some with screen shotted proof, others with corroborating witnesses, and rapid having days to respond and choosing not to, has long since met the burden of proof. This does not mean that if new information was to come up that we couldn't reevaluate it, only that this is how we feel now. Also, when picking public life you get certain benefits but there are draw.backs. To us it is clear that he has abused these privileges, in a way we find disgusting and is now suffering appropriate reaction given that he has chosen to stay silent. My question is at what point is your bar met? How many girls? And how long does he deserve to respond? And why so long? Also do you think if it is all true what does he deserve? Or is your real issue that you dont think his behavior was inappropriate?
Its highly inappropiate of course. You also know neither you or i can give a definition of the appropiate of time that should be waited before it can be assumed he has nothing to say. How do you define that? It should be fairly swift.
I don't really mind if you or anyone feel convinced he has sexually harassed these women. Its your free choice what you think ofc.
I simply stated, that it is not acceptable at all if we, collectively, are expected to simply accept that to be a universal truth.
For me, my sense of justice tells me i wanna read a statement first before i set my opinion in stone. Its not even because i find it likely that he will contribute anything meaningful. Given the evidence you quoted i find it very unlikely.
But its a basic concept of justice, that everybody has the right to speak in his own defense and have the statement honored.
That theoretical option has passed. Not you personally perhaps, but majority here and worse on twitter/reddit has taken in the drama in and will not reevaluate no matter what.
|
United States4883 Posts
On June 26 2020 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 08:42 AttackZerg wrote:
I repeat. You came to a thread about real people talking about very serious stuff.
And you made a false accusation as a way of defending someone.
You don't get to do that and pretend you are here for the love of open discourse and the betterment of the culture. Just to be clear though, that doesn't mean there aren't people that are genuinely learning right now. As I think puppykiller + Show Spoiler +(I do hope there's some redeeming aspect of that tag or you consider changing it lol) mentioned, a lot of us grew up in very toxic spaces and have a lot of unlearning to do (myself included). The longer/more you have these kind of tough conversations that require deep introspection and reconciling some foul ish one might have done in the past (perhaps not fully grasping the depravity for many reasons) the easier it gets to spot the people that are basically "concern trolling" vs the people that are genuinely learning why what they think is valid concern for justice and fair treatment is actually, at best, being a useful idiot for abusers looking to concern troll in defense of other abusers (or worse intentionally protecting abusers with more discretion than those in focus at the moment)
If you knew anything about puppykiller's posting history, you would stunned at the maturity of his posts in here. It's a really good thing that many of us are able to learn and move on from past mistakes.
Even though I have been probably overly strong in my opinions on this topic, I know I'm guilty of making other women uncomfortable in the past too. The turning point for how we treat each other and how we navigate romantic relationships is when we recognize that we need to listen to others and how they feel. Anna Funk worded it very beautifully when she said, "If you want to flirt without being labeled a predator, then you should truly, HONESTLY be thinking about how you are making the other person feel."
My thoughts are that our reactions to these stories constitute the type of people we are, and if our obsessive need to determine fault is our main focus, we've glossed over the part of our humanity where we actively seek to listen to others and internalize their perspectives, even if they differ from our own. It shows that we are quicker to try and win an argument and maintain power than we are to listen, and that's the heart of the problem with rape culture. No one is trying to argue that we should throw legal justice out the window. No one is trying to advocate for internet mobs to ruin people's lives. Everyone against the "presumption of innocence" argument is just trying to explain that the basis for an initial response geared solely toward placing blame (or not placing blame) is fundamentally misplaced.
For those of you who are resistant to taking people on their word, especially the people who have laughably accused me of rape in order to prove a point, this needs to be a learning opportunity where you recognize that the perspective of others is different from your own, While you might think that getting a little high with someone and having sex is totally consensual, others may see it differently, and it's not really up to you to determine how they should feel. If you think your inappropriate, unsolicited comments about your penis are totally innocent, that doesn't mean that others will feel the same way. There's no reason not to be inclusive other than just wanting to be a dick and perpetuate the dysfunction of power dynamics between the oppressors and the people they abuse. There's a world outside of you, and if you're not working to actively change it for the better, you are enabling it to do more damage.
|
Pangpootata
Did you just say this isn't about sex or gender when every single person accused is male?
I have not seen any accusations towards non-male individuals.
There might be one but for now. It is all men. So yeah. Totally couldn't be related to sex or gender.
|
United States4883 Posts
On June 26 2020 09:46 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 09:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
As I’ve previously said, TLO’s, Top’s and Pengwin’s accusations don’t seem to have the skepticism as the various women who have come forward.
Why is that? Why is it seemingly easier to believe them on this issue than women? Most people don't know really who those women are, whereas TLO and Top are established community figures. Not saying that relative unknowns are necessarily less trustworthy than well known figures, but that is just how most communities work. If a woman with greater standing in the community, for example scarlett came forward with a story, she would have the same credibility as TLO and Top. So please don't make this an issue of gender because it isnt.
I noticed that you skipped over Pengwin, who was the first person to place accusations among the three, to try and prove a point.
|
On June 26 2020 09:39 Pangpootata wrote:
Even if he were innocent, it would do him no good to respond. A lot of people have already made up their minds, and his response would only reignite interest in the issue and add fuel to the fire.
It's a situation where regardless of whether he is guilty or innocent, his best move would still be to lay low.
Lol what?
People have already made up their mind but the best thing he can do is to not say anything in order to not draw any more attention to the issue?
Not even strictly logical this makes any sense.
What a whiney, weak effort "People alrady made up their mind", nice job trying to turn this thing around, damn.
|
On June 26 2020 10:06 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 08:42 AttackZerg wrote:
I repeat. You came to a thread about real people talking about very serious stuff.
And you made a false accusation as a way of defending someone.
You don't get to do that and pretend you are here for the love of open discourse and the betterment of the culture. Just to be clear though, that doesn't mean there aren't people that are genuinely learning right now. As I think puppykiller + Show Spoiler +(I do hope there's some redeeming aspect of that tag or you consider changing it lol) mentioned, a lot of us grew up in very toxic spaces and have a lot of unlearning to do (myself included). The longer/more you have these kind of tough conversations that require deep introspection and reconciling some foul ish one might have done in the past (perhaps not fully grasping the depravity for many reasons) the easier it gets to spot the people that are basically "concern trolling" vs the people that are genuinely learning why what they think is valid concern for justice and fair treatment is actually, at best, being a useful idiot for abusers looking to concern troll in defense of other abusers (or worse intentionally protecting abusers with more discretion than those in focus at the moment) If you knew anything about puppykiller's posting history, you would stunned at the maturity of his posts in here. It's a really good thing that many of us are able to learn and move on from past mistakes. Even though I have been probably overly strong in my opinions on this topic, I know I'm guilty of making other women uncomfortable in the past too. The turning point for how we treat each other and how we navigate romantic relationships is when we recognize that we need to listen to others and how they feel. Anna Funk worded it very beautifully when she said, "If you want to flirt without being labeled a predator, then you should truly, HONESTLY be thinking about how you are making the other person feel." My thoughts are that our reactions to these stories constitute the type of people we are, and if our obsessive need to determine fault is our main focus, we've glossed over the part of our humanity where we actively seek to listen to others and internalize their perspectives, even if they differ from our own. It shows that we are quicker to try and win an argument and maintain power than we are to listen, and that's the heart of the problem with rape culture. No one is trying to argue that we should throw legal justice out the window. No one is trying to advocate for internet mobs to ruin people's lives. Everyone against the "presumption of innocence" argument is just trying to explain that the basis for an initial response geared solely toward placing blame (or not placing blame) is fundamentally misplaced. For those of you who are resistant to taking people on their word, especially the people who have laughably accused me of rape in order to prove a point, this needs to be a learning opportunity where you recognize that the perspective of others is different from your own, While you might think that getting a little high with someone and having sex is totally consensual, others may see it differently, and it's not really up to you to determine how they should feel. If you think your inappropriate, unsolicited comments about your penis are totally innocent, that doesn't mean that others will feel the same way. There's no reason not to be inclusive other than just wanting to be a dick and perpetuate the dysfunction of power dynamics between the oppressors and the people they abuse. There's a world outside of you, and if you're not working to actively change it for the better, you are enabling it to do more damage.
I don't know how else to say it but this inevitably leads them to the "if you punch a Nazi, you're no better than the Nazi" argument. I think you and Vipers anger is fully righteous and more kindly worded than was deserved imo. Because what happens over, and over, and over (this isn't the first time women have spoken up about the toxic culture of our patriarchy, or the first time for others to be speaking up in defense of that toxicity) is that it's reduced to the specific and irrefutable and the underlying culture and systems persist.
So even if they eventually conclude that Rapid messed up and deserves serious censure, they'll be right back here the next time having learned nothing. Without fail it's the "rock bottom" moment where that moment of realization comes, where that is varies. Sometimes that's just a little shame when they realize how inappropriate it was to use something like "witch hunt" in this context (that's about all it should take for someone to seriously reconsider if they are adequately informed enough to even begin to have a reasonable position other than unqualified support for the victims). For others it's not until they simply lose all their friends and status because they stubbornly refuse to accept that being rude to people for depriving people of their humanity/dignity/autonomy/etc isn't equivalent to being mean to someone because you disagree about whether a unit should have 50hp or 60hp or whatever.
Paradox of intolerance shit basically.
|
|
|
On June 26 2020 06:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 06:00 WarSame wrote:On June 26 2020 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 05:07 Geo.Rion wrote:
I hate to repeat myself, but since i semi-follow the dota2 e-sports as well, and without bringing that sh1t in here, I'm just so glad what we have here is not even close in scope and severity to what is going on over there.
Stay wholesome SC2 community I didn't know what someone meant by "full reddit" then I looked and yeah, yikes. Reddit Starcraft or Reddit Dota2? Does anyone else feel like there's just huge amounts of very shitty people involved in our gaming communities? I suppose a lot of men everywhere have these sorts of opinions, but I guess it's just disappointing to me that there's so MANY shitty people with shitty opinions. Even if you could prop their eyes open, point at the truth and be like "read it you sonofabitch" it would take hours to convince someone, they'll refuse to believe it because that means they're a sexual harasser/assaulter too, and they'll skip on their merry way. And there's millions of these people in our communities. Places like TL give me hope because the community is overall fairly reasonable about the whole thing. Most people are taking a "empathize with the accuser, while not necessarily believing them out of hand". Other than a few shitty (as in the only reasonable explanation for having that take is that the person is a rapist) takes even the people who have challenged the accusations have been overall not too aggressive and I feel like we could talk a while and come to some conclusion that, I hope, would bring them a little more towards creating a positive society in which we can finally start throwing predators into the fire. Then I look at Reddit or Twitter and see millions of neckbeards covering for their past or future sexual misbehaviour and it seems insurmountable. Both, but Dota is reaaaly bad. Seems like the "bad apple" thinking has been fully embraced by gaming communities though. Still don't seem ready to take this moment to look at how they are products of the communities and more so (afaik) in dota's case rather prominent.
Dota is having our "counterjerk" moment, which is where people who were being quiet now feel emboldened to speak out as some people are bored of the initial news.
It isn't bad apple thinking - people are flat out refusing to listen to accusations and complaining that problematic people have been cancelled (one of whom was found guilty of harassment in court...)
This isn't even reddit specific - our threads have several people commenting from this angle. Reddit is a 1000x worse though.
Some examples :
front page reddit threads about how one of the accusers should never have come forward
A "rebuttal" in the form of an archived, edited post on a forum about someone's recollections of a night 6 years ago (where some of the posts are from friends of the accused)
Things like this :
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hftuo0/this_witchhunt_is_wrong/
Sc2 I think has more equal female representation than DotA does, at least in the west. Not referring to talent or pros, but as a player base (though Scarlett is infinity more representation than women have had as players in DotA). DotA has always been notoriously toxic to women, so it isn't surprising to see it bubble up in our top circles.
|
On June 26 2020 09:56 ReFridgeRaider wrote:
I know I'm relatively new to TL and don't really post, but I thought of it as important to leave my thoughts on this thread here after reading it all. As someone who loves Starcraft it sucks hearing that shitty things have happened in the background of the scene.
I just wanted to add that, in a way, I can understand not wanting to ruin someone's reputation and that with these stories (and I think it's important they be called stories, rather than accusations, because these women and men aren't necessarily coming out to attack their harasser/abuser, but coming out to tell their stories) coming out can do harm to someone's reputation even without us (the public) condemning whoever was accused. However, I think this fear of a tarnished reputation is part of the larger problem of women/men not being given effective, if any, channels of communication that can address the events that happened to them. I think its poignant to realize that if there was a way any of them could have solved this problem quietly they would have taken that option, but because that doesn't exist this means going public becomes the avenue they go to to be heard. And with anything that goes public there is always at risk of criticism or damnation for all parties involved.
I think one of the hurdles we have to accept going over in order to fix a system that harms people by keeping them quiet and is inadequate at addressing concerns of sexual harassment or abuse is the idea of the tarnished reputation. I don't think it fixes things going on if we make a focus out of making sure a reputation isn't so tarnished. I think the community becomes better as a whole when organizations that help make Starcraft what it is, have clear policies on sexual harassment and abuse, and places where people can speak about it. It becomes better when we speak up together (because speaking alone can be very hard) against those that harass and abuse others (I think that's something almost everyone here agrees on). Those are lofty goals, maybe, but it's the SC community so I have faith. I think if we want a future where we have less of these stories being told in public all at once, because they were kept close to the chest, then the first step needs to be believing and listening to their stories. If they believe that they will be heard and organizations listen and actually address the issues they're told about, then we are less likely to be seeing these stories that pop up in public, alongside the ire of the public against whoever is in the story. This take might be a bit naive, but as other posters have written I think it's more important that we address their stories with belief, rather than doubt and shift focus away to a tarnished reputation.
Thanks for reading. This thread has helped me to put word some of my own beliefs.
Well said  Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
|
I read that post you linked and the one below it.
Made my stomach hurt. I'm out for a while.
Thanks to everyone who is spending the time to make sure that future victims know that ... people will listen and people will care.
It really does matter.
|
Canada8989 Posts
On June 26 2020 10:47 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 06:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 06:00 WarSame wrote:On June 26 2020 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 05:07 Geo.Rion wrote:
I hate to repeat myself, but since i semi-follow the dota2 e-sports as well, and without bringing that sh1t in here, I'm just so glad what we have here is not even close in scope and severity to what is going on over there.
Stay wholesome SC2 community I didn't know what someone meant by "full reddit" then I looked and yeah, yikes. Reddit Starcraft or Reddit Dota2? Does anyone else feel like there's just huge amounts of very shitty people involved in our gaming communities? I suppose a lot of men everywhere have these sorts of opinions, but I guess it's just disappointing to me that there's so MANY shitty people with shitty opinions. Even if you could prop their eyes open, point at the truth and be like "read it you sonofabitch" it would take hours to convince someone, they'll refuse to believe it because that means they're a sexual harasser/assaulter too, and they'll skip on their merry way. And there's millions of these people in our communities. Places like TL give me hope because the community is overall fairly reasonable about the whole thing. Most people are taking a "empathize with the accuser, while not necessarily believing them out of hand". Other than a few shitty (as in the only reasonable explanation for having that take is that the person is a rapist) takes even the people who have challenged the accusations have been overall not too aggressive and I feel like we could talk a while and come to some conclusion that, I hope, would bring them a little more towards creating a positive society in which we can finally start throwing predators into the fire. Then I look at Reddit or Twitter and see millions of neckbeards covering for their past or future sexual misbehaviour and it seems insurmountable. Both, but Dota is reaaaly bad. Seems like the "bad apple" thinking has been fully embraced by gaming communities though. Still don't seem ready to take this moment to look at how they are products of the communities and more so (afaik) in dota's case rather prominent. Dota is having our "counterjerk" moment, which is where people who were being quiet now feel emboldened to speak out as some people are bored of the initial news. It isn't bad apple thinking - people are flat out refusing to listen to accusations and complaining that problematic people have been cancelled (one of whom was found guilty of harassment in court...) This isn't even reddit specific - our threads have several people commenting from this angle. Reddit is a 1000x worse though. Some examples : front page reddit threads about how one of the accusers should never have come forward A "rebuttal" in the form of an archived, edited post on a forum about someone's recollections of a night 6 years ago (where some of the posts are from friends of the accused) Things like this : https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hftuo0/this_witchhunt_is_wrong/Sc2 I think has more equal female representation than DotA does, at least in the west. Not referring to talent or pros, but as a player base (though Scarlett is infinity more representation than women have had as players in DotA). DotA has always been notoriously toxic to women, so it isn't surprising to see it bubble up in our top circles.
Seeing it from a far, CSGO seems particularly bad as well, maybe I'm wrong tho.
|
Pls go to the authorities, not twitter. If you cant provee abuse/harrasment you are doing serious dmg to a persons carreer with no proof.
This is serious shit and must be attacked seriously.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
