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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts?
“When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” - Maya Angelou
Just incase you don't read well, that poster told you they had dealt with these issues in there own life. You then proceed to accuse them of that in order to .... what, win an argument? ....
Do better.
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On June 26 2020 06:47 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” - Maya Angelou Just incase you don't read well, that poster told you they had dealt with these issues in there own life. You then proceed to accuse them of that in order to .... what, win an argument? .... Do better.
Im not accusing him, im pointed out the flaw in the argument he made.
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On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts?
On June 26 2020 07:04 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 06:47 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” - Maya Angelou Just incase you don't read well, that poster told you they had dealt with these issues in there own life. You then proceed to accuse them of that in order to .... what, win an argument? .... Do better. Im not accusing him, im pointed out the flaw in the argument he made.
Yes, you making an offhand comment is exactly the same as multiple victims describing what happened to them, fully knowing that there will be gamerbros like you who would rather defend some theoretical "innocent until proven guilty" philosophy than actually listening to them and engaging these allegations in good faith.
Hell, there were even studies posted in here which showcased how disproportionate these problems are (false allegation compared to real ones), but you still choose to ignore actual real world context over some trivial idea everyone already knows, yeah people can potentially lie, wow your wisdowm illuminated us!
Srsly, fuck you and all you stand for. That's all i have to say.
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On June 26 2020 07:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 07:04 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 06:47 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” - Maya Angelou Just incase you don't read well, that poster told you they had dealt with these issues in there own life. You then proceed to accuse them of that in order to .... what, win an argument? .... Do better. Im not accusing him, im pointed out the flaw in the argument he made. Yes, you making an offhand comment is exactly the same as multiple victims describing what happened to them, fully knowing that there will be gamerbros like you who would rather defend some theoretical "innocent until proven guilty" philosophy than actually listening to them and engaging these allegations in good faith. Hell, there were even studies posted in here which showcased how disproportionate these problems are (false allegation compared to real ones), but you still choose to ignore actual real world context over some trivial idea everyone already knows, yeah people can potentially lie, wow your wisdowm illuminated us! Srsly, fuck you and all you stand for. That's all i have to say.
So instead of answering his question you just say "fuck you" to him because he doesn't have the same opinion as you?
I know which argument sounds more convincing to me.
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On June 26 2020 07:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yes, you making an offhand comment is exactly the same as multiple victims describing what happened to them, fully knowing that there will be gamerbros like you who would rather defend some theoretical "innocent until proven guilty" philosophy than actually listening to them and engaging these allegations in good faith.
Hell, there were even studies posted in here which showcased how disproportionate these problems are (false allegation compared to real ones), but you still choose to ignore actual real world context over some trivial idea everyone already knows, yeah people can potentially lie, wow your wisdowm illuminated us!
Srsly, fuck you and all you stand for. That's all i have to say.
I am pretty sure Cele is just either trolling or doesn't want to hear the other side, he's been asking for "definitive proof" everywhere including the Discord chat. I already reported him.
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On June 26 2020 07:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 07:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? On June 26 2020 07:04 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 06:47 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” - Maya Angelou Just incase you don't read well, that poster told you they had dealt with these issues in there own life. You then proceed to accuse them of that in order to .... what, win an argument? .... Do better. Im not accusing him, im pointed out the flaw in the argument he made. Yes, you making an offhand comment is exactly the same as multiple victims describing what happened to them, fully knowing that there will be gamerbros like you who would rather defend some theoretical "innocent until proven guilty" philosophy than actually listening to them and engaging these allegations in good faith. Hell, there were even studies posted in here which showcased how disproportionate these problems are (false allegation compared to real ones), but you still choose to ignore actual real world context over some trivial idea everyone already knows, yeah people can potentially lie, wow your wisdowm illuminated us! Srsly, fuck you and all you stand for. That's all i have to say. So instead of answering his question you just say "fuck you" to him because he doesn't have the same opinion as you? I know which argument sounds more convincing to me.
It's all already in here, you either are too fucking stupid to put 1 and 1 together or you are acting in bad faith. Most likely a mix of both. Gamerbros unite amiright.
There is only so much patience one can have when it comes to these social inequalities, if you don't want to engage it and stay ignorant that's your choice. I hope the community and society at large will exclude people like you in the long run.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On June 26 2020 07:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 07:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? On June 26 2020 07:04 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 06:47 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” - Maya Angelou Just incase you don't read well, that poster told you they had dealt with these issues in there own life. You then proceed to accuse them of that in order to .... what, win an argument? .... Do better. Im not accusing him, im pointed out the flaw in the argument he made. Yes, you making an offhand comment is exactly the same as multiple victims describing what happened to them, fully knowing that there will be gamerbros like you who would rather defend some theoretical "innocent until proven guilty" philosophy than actually listening to them and engaging these allegations in good faith. Hell, there were even studies posted in here which showcased how disproportionate these problems are (false allegation compared to real ones), but you still choose to ignore actual real world context over some trivial idea everyone already knows, yeah people can potentially lie, wow your wisdowm illuminated us! Srsly, fuck you and all you stand for. That's all i have to say. So instead of answering his question you just say "fuck you" to him because he doesn't have the same opinion as you? I know which argument sounds more convincing to me.
Don't pretend you're surprised, though.
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So to be clear: all the points made above by rwala about structural discrimination of women are pretty much established, i doubt anybody within reason will argue that.
Further, there is with no doubt a culture of male chovenism
and a deep lack of understanding for boundaries of respect towards women. I see these facts as pretty much established by social studies.
Does it justify us, in a specific situation like this to make a final judgement about a person that potentially is damaging the career of the accused without listening to his side.
Is there nothing within reason that come up that could change what you think now?
If your answer to that is a yes, im very lost here. A history of discrimination and disregard towards womens rights does not entitle you to make a judgement about a person without even listening to him
@ the two or three angry nerds above me: its fascinating that you know what i stand for without knowing the first thing about me in the first place. Great stuff.
I don't even know what a gamerbro is supposed to be? I assume you try to frame me into being some chauvinistic prick because you dislike my argument?
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The presumption of innocence and achieving justice aren't mutually exclusive. This takes a lot of care to do right in ferreting out and punishing the guilty and making a safer future without damaging unintended consequences, and too many people are looking for shortcuts.
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On June 26 2020 07:44 Cele wrote:
A history of discrimination and disregard towards womens rights does not entitle you to make a judgement about a person without even listening to him
Literally zero people in this thread are arguing this. How many women have come out against Rapid so far? That is the evidence. Rapid did not speak out.
You are just trolling.
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On June 26 2020 07:04 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 06:47 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” - Maya Angelou Just incase you don't read well, that poster told you they had dealt with these issues in there own life. You then proceed to accuse them of that in order to .... what, win an argument? .... Do better. Im not accusing him, im pointed out the flaw in the argument he made.
You came into a thread that is headlined with real people coming forward with stories of abuse,
and in order to prove a point, you made a false accusation to prove that someone can a false accusation.
That is a very cruel thing to do. If you don't realize that is cruel. Then it is either a language problem or a personal moral problem.
That is fucking wack dude.
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On June 26 2020 07:49 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 07:44 Cele wrote:
A history of discrimination and disregard towards womens rights does not entitle you to make a judgement about a person without even listening to him Literally zero people in this thread are arguing this. How many women have come out against Rapid so far? That is the evidence. Rapid did not speak out. You are just trolling.
No, im saying it sets a precedenct if we decide here there is no need to hear im in the first place. There is to many people here arguing that here already.
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On June 26 2020 07:54 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 07:49 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 26 2020 07:44 Cele wrote:
A history of discrimination and disregard towards womens rights does not entitle you to make a judgement about a person without even listening to him Literally zero people in this thread are arguing this. How many women have come out against Rapid so far? That is the evidence. Rapid did not speak out. You are just trolling. No, im saying it sets a precedenct if we decide here there is no need to hear im in the first place. There is to many people here arguing that here already.
Ok imagine Rapid comes out and says he doesn't know what these people are talking about. What do you suggest should happen?
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On June 26 2020 07:52 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 07:04 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 06:47 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” - Maya Angelou Just incase you don't read well, that poster told you they had dealt with these issues in there own life. You then proceed to accuse them of that in order to .... what, win an argument? .... Do better. Im not accusing him, im pointed out the flaw in the argument he made. You came into a thread that is headlined with real people coming forward with stories of abuse, and in order to prove a point, you made a false accusation to prove that someone can a false accusation. That is a very cruel thing to do. If you don't realize that is cruel. Then it is either a language problem or a personal moral problem. That is fucking wack dude.
Rapid is a real person too. If you do not realize it is moraly unsound to say he is a guilty prick without even letting him speak first, its a personal moral problem.
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United States4883 Posts
A lot of people on the TL forums showing their true colors this week....
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On June 26 2020 08:10 EsportsJohn wrote:
A lot of people on the TL forums showing their true colors this week....
Some for the worse and some for the better.
Thanks for doing your part 
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On June 26 2020 07:58 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 07:52 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 07:04 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 06:47 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” - Maya Angelou Just incase you don't read well, that poster told you they had dealt with these issues in there own life. You then proceed to accuse them of that in order to .... what, win an argument? .... Do better. Im not accusing him, im pointed out the flaw in the argument he made. You came into a thread that is headlined with real people coming forward with stories of abuse, and in order to prove a point, you made a false accusation to prove that someone can a false accusation. That is a very cruel thing to do. If you don't realize that is cruel. Then it is either a language problem or a personal moral problem. That is fucking wack dude. Rapid is a real person too. If you do not realize it is moraly unsound to say he is a guilty prick without even letting him speak first, its a personal moral problem.
I have not argued for the guilt of any one who is accused.
I have argued for there to be a place for them to do it without a million people like you working their very hardest to make it as toxic and impossible as possible.
You are defending Rapid. Are you giving a personal testimony as to his character? Vouching for him?
You haven't been arguing for Rapid, you have been picking stupid points to scrap about in a thread where Rapid is among others who are accused.
You have presented no arguments as to why he couldn't have done anything.
You are just fire-hosing the thread, to muddy the waters and invalidate the reality and seriousness.
At least anyone in the community knows how you feel about the subject and can exercise caution - you display an incredible lack of empathy.
Nothing you do can undue things that he has done.
Nothing.
Now I have argued for someones guilt. I believe the general testimony of the five that I have read about and found them to be credible and lacking further explosive evidence of a conspiracy to defame and assail him. I personally believe Rapid to be guilty of sexual misconduct and harassment.
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EPT
