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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On June 26 2020 01:02 outscar wrote:
Leave RAPiD alone guys. We all wrote stupid shit back then countless times when we were young, why do you even need to bring it up after so many years? True or not, doesn't matter, he had some private conversation and making it "sexual harassment/abuse" is absurd! Are we entering the era where every fucking word is going to be censored? What RAPiD did back then isn't good but don't make drama out of it like he's rapist. It's funny how far you guys can go...
You sent unsolicited explicit pictures to people that told you not to and made it clear they wanted nothing to do with you?
A 14-year old making dramatic proclamations on Facebook is one thing. Sending unwanted pictures, as an adult, to someone and making them uncomfortable even when they tell you not to - that's quite another thing. What do you think sexual harassment is?
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On June 26 2020 00:02 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 21:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 25 2020 21:40 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 25 2020 20:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. I actually think that this may be a bit of a false equivalence, but let me speak in broader terms that aren't just about family members. My response below is also in reference to a few posts I had read earlier from people who felt they were being helpful to the overall narrative by stating that they, personally, had never experienced any abuse from some of the accused people (presumably to present a more balanced perspective). I'm not accusing you of doing this; your conversation with rwala merely reminded me that I wanted to share my thoughts about this issue. I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. Also, when I'm referring to "you" over the next few paragraphs, I don't mean you, personally (Pangpootata); I'm using "you" in the impersonal sense of the word. Suppose multiple people start lining up and corroborating stories about Person X being abusive. Suppose you know X in some capacity (ranging from limited interactions as an acquaintance to literally being a close friend or family member), and you're surprised at these accusations, as you had never noticed any indication of X being capable of, or even joking about, doing that kind of abuse. If so many people are attacking X, it may seem reasonable for you to stand on the "side" of defending X. While these self-proclaimed victims are accusing X of doing something bad, you feel it's sensible to point out that you know X to be a really good person (or, at least, not the kind of person who would be abusive). There is a difference, however, between attesting to someone's "outstanding character" in the broader sense, and being able to refute a specific assertion from a specific person at a specific time and place. Unless your defense is specifically providing an alibi or fact that directly dismantles the assertion ("X couldn't have done that over there because they were with me over here", "X is accused of something non-consensual but I have evidence that it was consensual", etc.), you're inadvertently muddying the waters. This isn't about having a character witness step forward and say X is generally a good person, in the same way it's not about having a character witness pile on against X by saying they're generally a bad person. Most people don't live their lives assuming that everyone they pass by or meet or get to know has the worst intentions, which is why we have the stereotypical interviews of "Oh my gosh, I would have never guessed that my acquaintance / friend / family member could have done that terrible thing... they seemed so normal." Even if you have a strong rapport with the individual and really feel like you know them well, that may make it more likely for you to overlook and excuse signs that third parties might see as alarming. Bias can be especially prevalent when we're discussing those we care about, and your relationship with them really doesn't imply that you understand the relationship between them and the victims. The victims aren't making the broad statement that X couldn't possibly be seen as a good person or have any meaningful relationships. If those were the accusations, then stepping forward and explaining how you actually have a good rapport with X would be a great counterexample. But a specific crime can still be committed by a person, regardless of how many hundreds of neutral or positive experiences they've had with other people. Just because you haven't experienced abuse from X doesn't mean they haven't abused others; that would be like Shopkeeper A accusing a person of robbing Store A, but Shopkeeper B saying that simply couldn't have happened because the alleged thief had never also robbed Store B. Thoughts? It may be a trite observation but how many interviews with workmates and neighbours of absolute monsters like serial killers feature variants of ‘I had no idea, they seemed such a nice person.’? I have frequently uncomfortable interactions with a former work colleague at my local bar. As we both have kids and are separated from our partners he wants to strike a rapport on how unfair women can be in terms of access. They can be absolutely, but I don’t call my ex a bitch or a cunt like he liberally does. He says she’s falsely claiming he was violent. He was fired for gathering a couple of guys and breaking into a house and assaulting a gay colleague who made a pass at him. Between the language he uses and his prior behaviour lets just say I heavily doubt his ex is making these things up. The uncomfortable part is being in a scenario where I can’t exactly point this out. There are actually quite a few, the most famous of which is Ted Bundy. There are many others who came off as completely normal with regular day jobs and plenty of neutral/positive interactions with people (H. H. Holmes, John Wayne Gacy, Andrew Cunanan, etc.). A good number of serial killers have been charismatic and friendly; they're not all super-sketchy looking or super-sketchy acting when it comes to regular interactions. But anyways, on the topic of harassment: I think your example of your former colleague is more relevant to this specific thread (especially regarding language). Other people who knew Rapid have said that although they didn't also receive dick pics, he would still talk about his penis to them. I think that nicely parallels what you're saying, although I'd also suggest that having a more... conventional... conversation with an alleged abuser doesn't disprove the possibility that abuse could happen. That's merely the point I'm making. Agree entirely on that. One doesn’t have to be a monster, or a train wreck a la Avilo to be an abusive person. Quite the opposite, I’d imagine many more ‘normal’ decent guys do it than outliers like the above. It’s akin to racism in a sense, it’s not just behaviour indulged in by the KKK but is widely demonstrated across society. Accepting this both personally and then applying that in spaces we inhabit and we can create conditions where we challenge ourselves and others in making the spaces we inhabit safe and welcoming for everyone.
Those are really good points. In the future, we can proactively shut down potential harassment and assault before further escalation ensues. We just need to be strong enough to address people when they're being inappropriate, and have a community that's unified against abuse. If we can have open, educational discussions and talk to people who are using this kind of language, we might be able to influence them before they take things further and really get in trouble. It could help protect against abuse, and help persuade potential abusers to change their perspectives on things.
Edit: I don't need to pile on; others have already eloquently addressed outscar's post.
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I woke up to Lowko leaving his position because the person above him is a baddy?
That is legit. Respect.
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I hate to repeat myself, but since i semi-follow the dota2 e-sports as well, and without bringing that sh1t in here, I'm just so glad what we have here is not even close in scope and severity to what is going on over there.
Stay wholesome SC2 community
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On June 26 2020 01:02 outscar wrote:
Leave RAPiD alone guys. We all wrote stupid shit back then countless times when we were young, why do you even need to bring it up after so many years? True or not, doesn't matter, he had some private conversation and making it "sexual harassment/abuse" is absurd! Are we entering the era where every fucking word is going to be censored? What RAPiD did back then isn't good but don't make drama out of it like he's rapist. It's funny how far you guys can go...
Don't speak for me. I sincerily hope most of us didn't write stupid shit like that. I've hardly heard of a more obvious case of sexual harassment.
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On June 26 2020 05:07 Geo.Rion wrote:
I hate to repeat myself, but since i semi-follow the dota2 e-sports as well, and without bringing that sh1t in here, I'm just so glad what we have here is not even close in scope and severity to what is going on over there.
Stay wholesome SC2 community
I didn't know what someone meant by "full reddit" then I looked and yeah, yikes.
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China6330 Posts
Good read on why "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't really apply in these accusations. Click the tweet for the full thread.
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Agreed. I also want to jump on the twitter hate train based on accusations. Maybe the accused one is guilty, maybe not but who cares? Jumping on the hate train is fun and if the accused one turns out to be innocent then it's just tough luck I guess.
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28095 Posts
On June 26 2020 05:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 01:02 outscar wrote:
Leave RAPiD alone guys. We all wrote stupid shit back then countless times when we were young, why do you even need to bring it up after so many years? True or not, doesn't matter, he had some private conversation and making it "sexual harassment/abuse" is absurd! Are we entering the era where every fucking word is going to be censored? What RAPiD did back then isn't good but don't make drama out of it like he's rapist. It's funny how far you guys can go... Don't speak for me. I sincerily hope most of us didn't write stupid shit like that. I've hardly heard of a more obvious case of sexual harassment.
Same here lol. I mean I've probably called my friends a few words that I regret growing up, but insinuating that we've all sexually harassed someone at some point is laughable.
Also Rapid wasn't that young.
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I don't think so. As some people pointed out in following tweets, twitter is obviously not defined by court standards, but massive social media opinion, even if backed up by little to know evidence can destroy careers, social relationships and alike of the accused.
If, just in theory a judge would find the accused not guilty on all the same accusations after, strictly hypothetical, that would mean the afore mentioned social media attention equates to reputation damage.
In german law reputation damage can be a felony. So i have a hard time understanding why innocent until proven guilty would not apply as false judgement os threatening on an existential level to the accused.
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On June 26 2020 05:27 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 05:09 Charoisaur wrote:On June 26 2020 01:02 outscar wrote:
Leave RAPiD alone guys. We all wrote stupid shit back then countless times when we were young, why do you even need to bring it up after so many years? True or not, doesn't matter, he had some private conversation and making it "sexual harassment/abuse" is absurd! Are we entering the era where every fucking word is going to be censored? What RAPiD did back then isn't good but don't make drama out of it like he's rapist. It's funny how far you guys can go... Don't speak for me. I sincerily hope most of us didn't write stupid shit like that. I've hardly heard of a more obvious case of sexual harassment. Same here lol. I mean I've probably called my friends a few words that I regret growing up, but insinuating that we've all sexually harassed someone at some point is laughable. Also Rapid wasn't that young.
One inappropriate comment could be without malice. (It also could be with malice.) If the person you made that comment to doesn't respond positively, and you keep on, you've entered harassville. If multiple people get uncomfortable in response to your remarks to them and you keep making those kind of remarks to people... you're living in harassville, just looking for a juicy target.
Touching is even more clear cut. Yes there are misunderstandings and such, but the physical behaviors described here are not examples of inexperienced or awkward people making mistakes one time. They're examples of deliberate, conscious decisions. A pattern of behavior. If you're groping people, literally climbing into bed with them, invading their personal space, and they don't want it, 99999 out of 100000 cases the signals they send out in response are not confusing in the least. Even if they don't say anything or resist at all, well, it isn't hard to tell when someone is too shocked and/or afraid to speak up in the moment.
Sometimes there is ambiguity, sometimes there is not. Talking about your dick to anyone you can get to pay attention to you, progressing to even more vulgar comments, sending unsolicited dick pics, getting into people's beds and touching them, all that kind of stuff, especially the same person doing that kind of stuff multiple times... come on. There's no excuse. There's no ambiguity there. They know it's wrong and they don't care.
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On June 26 2020 05:37 Cele wrote:I don't think so. As some people pointed out in following tweets, twitter is obviously not defined by court standards, but massive social media opinion, even if backed up by little to know evidence can destroy careers, social relationships and alike of the accused. If, just in theory a judge would find the accused not guilty on all the same accusations after, strictly hypothetical, that would mean the afore mentioned social media attention equates to reputation damage. In german law reputation damage can be a felony. So i have a hard time understanding why innocent until proven guilty would not apply as false judgement os threatening on an existential level to the accused.
As you re coming from BW I just asume, you re here, because you re outraged about Rapid beeing Fired.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/660234345?t=03h23m00s
Watch this pls for some Background informations
We ve also discussed in length, about what we as a comunity should do between beliving the victim or the the harasser. Scroll throughany past 3-4 pages to inform youselve a bit, before making further comments
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On June 26 2020 05:07 Geo.Rion wrote:
I hate to repeat myself, but since i semi-follow the dota2 e-sports as well, and without bringing that sh1t in here, I'm just so glad what we have here is not even close in scope and severity to what is going on over there.
Stay wholesome SC2 community
I don't follow that community at all and I've never been on LiquidDota, but I just clicked their sexual harassment thread and I found this awesome article in the OP:
https://medium.com/@keepingitKyle/flirting-for-morons-258b92ff614b
I would recommend everyone read it, especially anyone who thinks that dick pics aren't a big deal or that allegations of abuse are generally exaggerated or that people should be flattered and not offended by your advances... but really, everyone should read it. It's pretty long but it lays out some very useful perspective, and while I don't like to generalize, I think it's reasonably safe to say that if you think that article's advice can be summed up as some lame cuckboy beta bullshit (or whatever lingo the cool kids use nowadays), then you're absolutely part of the problem.
(General "you", not you Geo.)
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On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem.
You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts?
User was warned for this post
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On June 26 2020 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 05:07 Geo.Rion wrote:
I hate to repeat myself, but since i semi-follow the dota2 e-sports as well, and without bringing that sh1t in here, I'm just so glad what we have here is not even close in scope and severity to what is going on over there.
Stay wholesome SC2 community I didn't know what someone meant by "full reddit" then I looked and yeah, yikes.
Reddit Starcraft or Reddit Dota2?
Does anyone else feel like there's just huge amounts of very shitty people involved in our gaming communities? I suppose a lot of men everywhere have these sorts of opinions, but I guess it's just disappointing to me that there's so MANY shitty people with shitty opinions. Even if you could prop their eyes open, point at the truth and be like "read it you sonofabitch" it would take hours to convince someone, they'll refuse to believe it because that means they're a sexual harasser/assaulter too, and they'll skip on their merry way. And there's millions of these people in our communities.
Places like TL give me hope because the community is overall fairly reasonable about the whole thing. Most people are taking a "empathize with the accuser, while not necessarily believing them out of hand". Other than a few shitty (as in the only reasonable explanation for having that take is that the person is a rapist) takes even the people who have challenged the accusations have been overall not too aggressive and I feel like we could talk a while and come to some conclusion that, I hope, would bring them a little more towards creating a positive society in which we can finally start throwing predators into the fire.
Then I look at Reddit or Twitter and see millions of neckbeards covering for their past or future sexual misbehaviour and it seems insurmountable.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 26 2020 05:54 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 05:37 Cele wrote:I don't think so. As some people pointed out in following tweets, twitter is obviously not defined by court standards, but massive social media opinion, even if backed up by little to know evidence can destroy careers, social relationships and alike of the accused. If, just in theory a judge would find the accused not guilty on all the same accusations after, strictly hypothetical, that would mean the afore mentioned social media attention equates to reputation damage. In german law reputation damage can be a felony. So i have a hard time understanding why innocent until proven guilty would not apply as false judgement os threatening on an existential level to the accused. As you re coming from BW I just asume, you re here, because you re outraged about Rapid beeing Fired. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/660234345?t=03h23m00sWatch this pls for some Background informations We ve also discussed in length, about what we as a comunity should do between beliving the victim or the the harasser. Scroll throughany past 3-4 pages to inform youselve a bit, before making further comments
How does this apply to what Cele wrote?
(in case you missed it, the discussed toppic was innocent until proven guildy and he hasn't been proven unless Rapid admitted)
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28095 Posts
On June 26 2020 06:00 WarSame wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 05:07 Geo.Rion wrote:
I hate to repeat myself, but since i semi-follow the dota2 e-sports as well, and without bringing that sh1t in here, I'm just so glad what we have here is not even close in scope and severity to what is going on over there.
Stay wholesome SC2 community I didn't know what someone meant by "full reddit" then I looked and yeah, yikes. Reddit Starcraft or Reddit Dota2? Does anyone else feel like there's just huge amounts of very shitty people involved in our gaming communities? I suppose a lot of men everywhere have these sorts of opinions, but I guess it's just disappointing to me that there's so MANY shitty people with shitty opinions. Even if you could prop their eyes open, point at the truth and be like "read it you sonofabitch" it would take hours to convince someone, they'll refuse to believe it because that means they're a sexual harasser/assaulter too, and they'll skip on their merry way. And there's millions of these people in our communities.
I'm not an expert, but my assumption is that the top levels of gaming communities tend to be insular/small to begin with. There also tends to be a lot of gatekeeping which creates a place for like-minded people. The best example being the dota 2 caster/talent pool getting exposed right now.
Also as you said I think it's also the fact that we're realizing there's more crap people in the world than we thought 
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts?
I think we're mostly hitting here anglo-saxon barrier vs continental Europe with some exceptions from the north. At least based on nations and the comments I remember. Like they're a different continent/country  (e.g. somebody replied to me that people in prison are there because of some fucked up reason, well, that's like US issue, not ours, we don't do that)
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On June 26 2020 06:00 WarSame wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 05:07 Geo.Rion wrote:
I hate to repeat myself, but since i semi-follow the dota2 e-sports as well, and without bringing that sh1t in here, I'm just so glad what we have here is not even close in scope and severity to what is going on over there.
Stay wholesome SC2 community I didn't know what someone meant by "full reddit" then I looked and yeah, yikes. Reddit Starcraft or Reddit Dota2? Does anyone else feel like there's just huge amounts of very shitty people involved in our gaming communities? I suppose a lot of men everywhere have these sorts of opinions, but I guess it's just disappointing to me that there's so MANY shitty people with shitty opinions. Even if you could prop their eyes open, point at the truth and be like "read it you sonofabitch" it would take hours to convince someone, they'll refuse to believe it because that means they're a sexual harasser/assaulter too, and they'll skip on their merry way. And there's millions of these people in our communities. Places like TL give me hope because the community is overall fairly reasonable about the whole thing. Most people are taking a "empathize with the accuser, while not necessarily believing them out of hand". Other than a few shitty (as in the only reasonable explanation for having that take is that the person is a rapist) takes even the people who have challenged the accusations have been overall not too aggressive and I feel like we could talk a while and come to some conclusion that, I hope, would bring them a little more towards creating a positive society in which we can finally start throwing predators into the fire. Then I look at Reddit or Twitter and see millions of neckbeards covering for their past or future sexual misbehaviour and it seems insurmountable.
Both, but Dota is reaaaly bad. Seems like the "bad apple" thinking has been fully embraced by gaming communities though. Still don't seem ready to take this moment to look at how they are products of the communities and more so (afaik) in dota's case rather prominent.
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