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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
If i was RapiD and I was accused of sexual harassing some working colleagues i work with in the past.
I will DM them saying sorry an asking what I could do to try to fix it. Then do a public message appealing to the victims and how I need to learn, understand a rectify my behavior.
How do you people think RapiD should react if he knew its true and he regrets his behavior?
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On June 26 2020 08:17 Argonauta wrote:
If i was RapiD and I was accused of sexual harassing some working colleagues i work with in the past.
I will DM them saying sorry an asking what I could do to try to fix it. Then do a public message appealing to the victims and how I need to learn, understand a rectify my behavior.
How do you people think RapiD should react if he knew its true and he regrets his behavior?
If I had the urge to constantly talk about the size of my penis and harass random women about it I would probably look for a therapist first thing, and apologize publicly and do all I can to help the victims.
If the accusation was false I would immediately deny it.
Rapid has done neither of these so IMO it is not looking good for him.
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On June 26 2020 08:17 Argonauta wrote:
If i was RapiD and I was accused of sexual harassing some working colleagues i work with in the past.
I will DM them saying sorry an asking what I could do to try to fix it. Then do a public message appealing to the victims and how I need to learn, understand a rectify my behavior.
How do you people think RapiD should react if he knew its true and he regrets his behavior?
That sounds like a great start. Given that any organizations working with him should drop him immediately, I would also hope he reaches out to them, explains in detail why he's going to be leaving their organization and that he's at fault and he hopes it doesn't reflect too poorly on the organizations who gave him a chance, and then he should leave those organizations proactively, and not just wait to be fired.
And then, of course, he should actually get help.
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On June 26 2020 07:57 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 07:54 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 07:49 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 26 2020 07:44 Cele wrote:
A history of discrimination and disregard towards womens rights does not entitle you to make a judgement about a person without even listening to him Literally zero people in this thread are arguing this. How many women have come out against Rapid so far? That is the evidence. Rapid did not speak out. You are just trolling. No, im saying it sets a precedenct if we decide here there is no need to hear im in the first place. There is to many people here arguing that here already. Ok imagine Rapid comes out and says he doesn't know what these people are talking about. What do you suggest should happen?
I would like to hear an answer to this question too, if you don't mind, Cele.
Other people (who have similarly asked the community to reserve judgment until Rapid has made a public announcement) have responded to this with a shrug and a simple "well now it's just a he-said/she-said discussion, so we'll call it a draw", which is obviously not acceptable, given the multiple corroborating stories against him.
What are your thoughts on this, Cele?
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So I have no clue who any of these people are (both posting in this thread and also mentioned) except for Rapid, since I exclusively watch Brood War and I don't watch SC2, but there isn't a thread for this in the Brood War forums.
My question is what is the roster of ASL commentators at now? Just off of memory of casters that I've seen, I could think of Tasteless, Artosis, Rapid, NoRegret, and Cadenzie. Now that Rapid is most likely gone, are there only 3-4 left (I don't know if Cadenzie is actually employed by Afreeca to be one)?
I ask this because there seems to be not enough English commentators for BW events (KCM didn't have any and Afreeca Team Starleague currently don't have any)
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On June 26 2020 08:10 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 07:58 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 07:52 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 07:04 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 06:47 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts? *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” - Maya Angelou Just incase you don't read well, that poster told you they had dealt with these issues in there own life. You then proceed to accuse them of that in order to .... what, win an argument? .... Do better. Im not accusing him, im pointed out the flaw in the argument he made. You came into a thread that is headlined with real people coming forward with stories of abuse, and in order to prove a point, you made a false accusation to prove that someone can a false accusation. That is a very cruel thing to do. If you don't realize that is cruel. Then it is either a language problem or a personal moral problem. That is fucking wack dude. Rapid is a real person too. If you do not realize it is moraly unsound to say he is a guilty prick without even letting him speak first, its a personal moral problem. Who exactly is stopping him from speaking? He has the biggest platform and more followers than all the victims combined. And at how people saying strikingly similar stories do you realize this is Bill Cosby or Harvey Wienstien all over again. At the very least go read about guilty until proven innocent and how it works, because it is not at all like you think.
I am the first to say im convinced he did it if he says nothin or nothing very convincing.
Im as worried it is the next Bill Cosby sure. But there is an off chance it is not.
Lastly, tho you can not see that from my previous posts: im not referring to “innocent until proven guilty“ in a court-of-law sense and im aware how it is meant. Ofc you can be judged guilty even it is not strictly proven but there is sufficient evidence. Problem is: a judge or jury is weighing that evidence, they have a duty and high integrity towards it.
In this internet forum, there is no impartial judge, no jury bound by oath. Its just a lot of people with of opnions. And if public opinion sways against the acused and the topic is considered closed before rapid says anything, then there is no room for the verdict “not guilty“ anymore.
Which is precisely whats not right. And im saying that again, because i care for a good discussion culture on TL. Otherwise i would've stfu long ago with all the very obvious hate going my way.
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On June 26 2020 08:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 07:57 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 26 2020 07:54 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 07:49 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 26 2020 07:44 Cele wrote:
A history of discrimination and disregard towards womens rights does not entitle you to make a judgement about a person without even listening to him Literally zero people in this thread are arguing this. How many women have come out against Rapid so far? That is the evidence. Rapid did not speak out. You are just trolling. No, im saying it sets a precedenct if we decide here there is no need to hear im in the first place. There is to many people here arguing that here already. Ok imagine Rapid comes out and says he doesn't know what these people are talking about. What do you suggest should happen? I would like to hear an answer to this question too, if you don't mind, Cele. Other people (who have similarly asked the community to reserve judgment until Rapid has made a public announcement) have responded to this with a shrug and a simple "well now it's just a he-said/she-said discussion, so we'll call it a draw", which is obviously not acceptable, given the multiple corroborating stories against him. What are your thoughts on this, Cele?
Thats actually a very good and interesting question which i asked myself. I admit i have no answer to it and i dont think there is any. See my answer above, the structural problem is that this forum cannot be an impartial judge (neither me as person)
I think it would need an impartial esport ethics/antidiscrimination comitee to clear it up satisfactory, which would be in the interest of all parties. But thats like purely wishful thinking/an idea on the fly by me.
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I repeat. You came to a thread about real people talking about very serious stuff.
And you made a false accusation as a way of defending someone.
You don't get to do that and pretend you are here for the love of open discourse and the betterment of the culture.
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On June 26 2020 08:36 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 08:10 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2020 07:58 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 07:52 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 07:04 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 06:47 AttackZerg wrote:On June 26 2020 05:57 Cele wrote:On June 25 2020 21:33 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:
[quote]
I have been abused and sexually molested by you rwala. By your own logic that shouldn't be doubted by anyone here, not even by you. Thoughts?
*sigh*
This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures.
This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now.
Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated.
I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women.
SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. First, I'll take your non-response to my calling out your inaccurate and misleading armchair lawyering as a concession on that point. If so, best to admit it publicly so you can play your part in hopefully ridding the world of that once and for all (it's very tiring to have to correct this all the time, and it really confuses things). Second, no, I would not side with my family or friends if multiple people accused them of harassment. More importantly, I have a family history and several lost or challenged friendships to prove it. I have had to have incredibly difficult--but necessary--conversations with some close male friends, all in a context in which people like you have enabled an environment in which those conversations are all but impossible. Your response to this point is actually quite telling though, so I'm glad we got to the crux of it: what you and others are saying is that women are not to be believed. Given that "proof" almost never exists in these harassment situations, one of the main reasons women do no come forward is because they fear no one will believe them. And unfortunately you and others on this thread are demonstrating why their fears are legitimate. Think about this practically. A number of women say Reid said and did inappropriate, many of which constitute harassment. You are saying do not believe them, do not say you believe them, do not render any judgment, and wait to hear the other side of the story. Well the other side of the story often never comes, and when it does it's often a blanket denial. Hell no, I'm not waiting to hear the other side when there are multiple, credible allegations. I believe the women. Third, fair enough re: the stolen car example, but easy enough to amend that to say "hey! I saw our other neighbor from down the street stole my car!!!!" Again, you would believe them. It would be bizarre not to. People do not often make up stuff like this. Except men seem to think women do all the time when it comes to harassment, abuse, or sexual crimes. So they must not be believed until physical proof is presented and guilt is rendered in a court of law? That's insane. I get that harassment and abuse can happen to anyone regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation, but it's telling that no one seems to be questioning TLO's story. Do you feel we should wait and hear from the other side on that one? I think we all know what's going on here. The push (from men) to question women's stories and not believe them, assert due process constitutional rights on behalf of the perpetrator in a context in which they don't apply, and dismiss those who support and and believe women who come forward is 100% a product of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I've had enough conversations with men about this to know that this culture of toxic masculinity is significantly motivated by genuinely feeling that this kind of harassment is okay and should be allowed or--to the extent there is introspection--guilt from the inappropriate ways in which they've treated women...and fear that those actions might come out some day. Bottom line: believe women (and anyone) when they say that have been harassed or abused. If you don't, you're part of the problem. You sexually abused and molested me, rwala. By your own logic and conclusion that statement should not be questioned by anyone here. Thoughts? “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” - Maya Angelou Just incase you don't read well, that poster told you they had dealt with these issues in there own life. You then proceed to accuse them of that in order to .... what, win an argument? .... Do better. Im not accusing him, im pointed out the flaw in the argument he made. You came into a thread that is headlined with real people coming forward with stories of abuse, and in order to prove a point, you made a false accusation to prove that someone can a false accusation. That is a very cruel thing to do. If you don't realize that is cruel. Then it is either a language problem or a personal moral problem. That is fucking wack dude. Rapid is a real person too. If you do not realize it is moraly unsound to say he is a guilty prick without even letting him speak first, its a personal moral problem. Who exactly is stopping him from speaking? He has the biggest platform and more followers than all the victims combined. And at how people saying strikingly similar stories do you realize this is Bill Cosby or Harvey Wienstien all over again. At the very least go read about guilty until proven innocent and how it works, because it is not at all like you think. I am the first to say im convinced he did it if he says nothin or nothing very convincing. Im as worried it is the next Bill Cosby sure. But there is an off chance it is not. Lastly, tho you can not see that from my previous posts: im not referring to “innocent until proven guilty“ in a court-of-law sense and im aware how it is meant. Ofc you can be judged guilty even it is not strictly proven but there is sufficient evidence. Problem is: a judge or jury is weighing that evidence, they have a duty and high integrity towards it.In this internet forum, there is no impartial judge, no jury bound by oath. Its just a lot of people with of opnions. And if public opinion sways against the acused and the topic is considered closed before rapid says anything, then there is no room for the verdict “not guilty“ anymore. Which is precisely whats not right. And im saying that again, because i care for a good discussion culture on TL. Otherwise i would've stfu long ago with all the very obvious hate going my way.
I think you would be disappointed to find out how much politics, stereotyping and just regular human behaviour(i.e. conviction rates rise if the judge is making a judgement right before lunch) goes into the decisions judges and juries make. Don't try to hold them up to be some neutral arbiters of justice.
For example Edgar Ray Killen (ironic name for a murderer) had his trial reach no verdict because some white woman was like "I can't convict no preacher", when the guy was only a part time minister and was the one who initiated the killings.
On June 26 2020 08:41 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 08:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 26 2020 07:57 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 26 2020 07:54 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 07:49 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 26 2020 07:44 Cele wrote:
A history of discrimination and disregard towards womens rights does not entitle you to make a judgement about a person without even listening to him Literally zero people in this thread are arguing this. How many women have come out against Rapid so far? That is the evidence. Rapid did not speak out. You are just trolling. No, im saying it sets a precedenct if we decide here there is no need to hear im in the first place. There is to many people here arguing that here already. Ok imagine Rapid comes out and says he doesn't know what these people are talking about. What do you suggest should happen? I would like to hear an answer to this question too, if you don't mind, Cele. Other people (who have similarly asked the community to reserve judgment until Rapid has made a public announcement) have responded to this with a shrug and a simple "well now it's just a he-said/she-said discussion, so we'll call it a draw", which is obviously not acceptable, given the multiple corroborating stories against him. What are your thoughts on this, Cele? Thats actually a very good and interesting question which i asked myself. I admit i have no answer to it and i dont think there is any. See my answer above, the structural problem is that this forum cannot be an impartial judge (neither me as person) I think it would need an impartial esport ethics/antidiscrimination comitee to clear it up satisfactory, which would be in the interest of all parties. But thats like purely wishful thinking/an idea on the fly by me.
Also... what? You need a committee convened in order to take any sort of position on the probability of someone having committed sexual harassment or assault? Have you been listening to anything people have been saying about predators abusing positions of power?
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On June 26 2020 08:42 AttackZerg wrote:
I repeat. You came to a thread about real people talking about very serious stuff.
And you made a false accusation as a way of defending someone.
You don't get to do that and pretend you are here for the love of open discourse and the betterment of the culture.
People think by indulging posters like Char, Cele, deacon, etc in pretending they are after equitable justice (they aren't) it will conclude with them having a moment of clarity they wouldn't have if they were simply shunned and forced to reflect if they wanted to be welcome in public gaming spaces.
The truth as I see it is (and this isn't limited to this specific set of circumstances) is that, instead, it perpetuates the status quo. I think folks like Viper and John have it right on this one.
Just to be clear though, that doesn't mean there aren't people that are genuinely learning right now. As I think puppykiller + Show Spoiler +(I do hope there's some redeeming aspect of that tag or you consider changing it lol)
The longer/more you have these kind of tough conversations that require deep introspection and reconciling some foul ish one might have done in the past (perhaps not fully grasping the depravity for many reasons) the easier it gets to spot the people that are basically "concern trolling" vs the people that are genuinely learning why what they think is valid concern for justice and fair treatment is actually, at best, being a useful idiot for abusers looking to concern troll in defense of other abusers (or worse intentionally protecting abusers with more discretion than those in focus at the moment)
User was temp banned for this post.
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I don't really get the focus on rapid
Yes he should say something.
The evidence against him looks very strong and his silence speaks volumes.
People don't have to respond immediately but this serious... within a day at the most. Within 12 hours really.
This is about way more than rapid there's a lot of allegations just within the SC2 community. There's cases with lots of evidence of all kinds of bad behaviors - rapid, avilo come to mind - and lots of cases now and to come with less evidence. It isn't the rapids of the community that are going to ultimately cause the most infighting like in this thread if a good process for handling allegations isn't developed.
This thread is the first time I've posted a bunch at TL in a long time. I watch a lot of SC2 (and artosis bw of course) still, I come to TL usually to watch my streams because why idk lol and I love that both games are still going here in 2020. Im afraid this is a very threatening situation to victims, people who are or will get accused, organizations, and the whole damn thing. I don't want anyone or anything to get wrecked who shouldn't. Or anyone or anything who should to escape. That's impossible of course but I hope everyone does the best they can so the community is both much more unplagued by bad behavior and much more truly unified once it gets through this. I don't think a lot of things said both ways in this thread are helping that but I'm sure theyre nothing compared to lots of other places. And I expect that both those things will end up happening
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On June 26 2020 08:41 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 08:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 26 2020 07:57 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 26 2020 07:54 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 07:49 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 26 2020 07:44 Cele wrote:
A history of discrimination and disregard towards womens rights does not entitle you to make a judgement about a person without even listening to him Literally zero people in this thread are arguing this. How many women have come out against Rapid so far? That is the evidence. Rapid did not speak out. You are just trolling. No, im saying it sets a precedenct if we decide here there is no need to hear im in the first place. There is to many people here arguing that here already. Ok imagine Rapid comes out and says he doesn't know what these people are talking about. What do you suggest should happen? I would like to hear an answer to this question too, if you don't mind, Cele. Other people (who have similarly asked the community to reserve judgment until Rapid has made a public announcement) have responded to this with a shrug and a simple "well now it's just a he-said/she-said discussion, so we'll call it a draw", which is obviously not acceptable, given the multiple corroborating stories against him. What are your thoughts on this, Cele? Thats actually a very good and interesting question which i asked myself. I admit i have no answer to it and i dont think there is any. See my answer above, the structural problem is that this forum cannot be an impartial judge (neither me as person) I think it would need an impartial esport ethics/antidiscrimination comitee to clear it up satisfactory, which would be in the interest of all parties. But thats like purely wishful thinking/an idea on the fly by me.
I appreciate your answer; my personal answer to that same question (because I would like to hear what Rapid has to say for himself too) is that a mere denial wouldn't cut it for me. To me, the evidence is incredibly one-sided - lopsided against him - given the many corroborative stories. I think it's incredibly unlikely for a group of individuals to be running an organized conspiracy just to assassinate his character, and given the general reliability of abuse allegations and the risk that victims generally go through just to make their voices heard, Rapid would need an unbelievable amount of proof that everyone was lying. I know this isn't a court of law and I'm definitely not an authority on this, but that's where I stand on the issue.
Could you elaborate more on what you think this proposed e-sports ethics committee would be deciding, or clearing up? The real legal system would be covering actual criminal activity, and the organizations the accused abuser works with would be in charge of deciding whether or not they're going to get rid of said abuser... So I'm not sure what the role of an ethics committee would be.
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On June 26 2020 09:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 08:41 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 08:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 26 2020 07:57 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 26 2020 07:54 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 07:49 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 26 2020 07:44 Cele wrote:
A history of discrimination and disregard towards womens rights does not entitle you to make a judgement about a person without even listening to him Literally zero people in this thread are arguing this. How many women have come out against Rapid so far? That is the evidence. Rapid did not speak out. You are just trolling. No, im saying it sets a precedenct if we decide here there is no need to hear im in the first place. There is to many people here arguing that here already. Ok imagine Rapid comes out and says he doesn't know what these people are talking about. What do you suggest should happen? I would like to hear an answer to this question too, if you don't mind, Cele. Other people (who have similarly asked the community to reserve judgment until Rapid has made a public announcement) have responded to this with a shrug and a simple "well now it's just a he-said/she-said discussion, so we'll call it a draw", which is obviously not acceptable, given the multiple corroborating stories against him. What are your thoughts on this, Cele? Thats actually a very good and interesting question which i asked myself. I admit i have no answer to it and i dont think there is any. See my answer above, the structural problem is that this forum cannot be an impartial judge (neither me as person) I think it would need an impartial esport ethics/antidiscrimination comitee to clear it up satisfactory, which would be in the interest of all parties. But thats like purely wishful thinking/an idea on the fly by me. I appreciate your answer; my personal answer to that same question (because I would like to hear what Rapid has to say for himself too) is that a mere denial wouldn't cut it for me. To me, the evidence is incredibly one-sided - lopsided against him - given the many corroborative stories. I think it's incredibly unlikely for a group of individuals to be running an organized conspiracy just to assassinate his character, and given the general reliability of abuse allegations and the risk that victims generally go through just to make their voices heard, Rapid would need an unbelievable amount of proof that everyone was lying. I know this isn't a court of law and I'm definitely not an authority on this, but that's where I stand on the issue. Could you elaborate more on what you think this proposed e-sports ethics committee would be deciding, or clearing up? The real legal system would be covering actual criminal activity, and the organizations the accused abuser works with would be in charge of deciding whether or not they're going to get rid of said abuser... So I'm not sure what the role of an ethics committee would be.
There are professional processes and standards that could be looked to. Esports should be professional, it spent two decades striving for and achieving professional legitimacy... so be professional.
Some of these accusations rise to bringing in the legal system as well as in some of the accused should have law enforcement or at least civil attorneys looking into them. Some of them have before.
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On June 26 2020 08:59 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't really get the focus on rapid
Yes he should say something.
The evidence against him looks very strong and his silence speaks volumes.
People don't have to respond immediately but this serious... within a day at the most. Within 12 hours really.
This is about way more than rapid there's a lot of allegations just within the SC2 community. There's cases with lots of evidence of all kinds of bad behaviors - rapid, avilo come to mind - and lots of cases now and to come with less evidence. It isn't the rapids of the community that are going to ultimately cause the most infighting like in this thread if a good process for handling allegations isn't developed.
This thread is the first time I've posted a bunch at TL in a long time. I watch a lot of SC2 (and artosis bw of course) still, I come to TL usually to watch my streams because why idk lol and I love that both games are still going here in 2020. Im afraid this is a very threatening situation to victims, people who are or will get accused, organizations, and the whole damn thing. I don't want anyone or anything to get wrecked who shouldn't. Or anyone or anything who should to escape. That's impossible of course but I hope everyone does the best they can so the community is both much more unplagued by bad behavior and much more truly unified once it gets through this. I don't think a lot of things said both ways in this thread are helping that but I'm sure theyre nothing compared to lots of other places. And I expect that both those things will end up happening
Very fair point. We should be having conversations about all of the abusers - not just Rapid - and seeing if there are still organizations affiliated with the abusers (and if they're aware of the allegations).
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On June 26 2020 09:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 09:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 26 2020 08:41 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 08:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 26 2020 07:57 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 26 2020 07:54 Cele wrote:On June 26 2020 07:49 LG)Sabbath wrote:On June 26 2020 07:44 Cele wrote:
A history of discrimination and disregard towards womens rights does not entitle you to make a judgement about a person without even listening to him Literally zero people in this thread are arguing this. How many women have come out against Rapid so far? That is the evidence. Rapid did not speak out. You are just trolling. No, im saying it sets a precedenct if we decide here there is no need to hear im in the first place. There is to many people here arguing that here already. Ok imagine Rapid comes out and says he doesn't know what these people are talking about. What do you suggest should happen? I would like to hear an answer to this question too, if you don't mind, Cele. Other people (who have similarly asked the community to reserve judgment until Rapid has made a public announcement) have responded to this with a shrug and a simple "well now it's just a he-said/she-said discussion, so we'll call it a draw", which is obviously not acceptable, given the multiple corroborating stories against him. What are your thoughts on this, Cele? Thats actually a very good and interesting question which i asked myself. I admit i have no answer to it and i dont think there is any. See my answer above, the structural problem is that this forum cannot be an impartial judge (neither me as person) I think it would need an impartial esport ethics/antidiscrimination comitee to clear it up satisfactory, which would be in the interest of all parties. But thats like purely wishful thinking/an idea on the fly by me. I appreciate your answer; my personal answer to that same question (because I would like to hear what Rapid has to say for himself too) is that a mere denial wouldn't cut it for me. To me, the evidence is incredibly one-sided - lopsided against him - given the many corroborative stories. I think it's incredibly unlikely for a group of individuals to be running an organized conspiracy just to assassinate his character, and given the general reliability of abuse allegations and the risk that victims generally go through just to make their voices heard, Rapid would need an unbelievable amount of proof that everyone was lying. I know this isn't a court of law and I'm definitely not an authority on this, but that's where I stand on the issue. Could you elaborate more on what you think this proposed e-sports ethics committee would be deciding, or clearing up? The real legal system would be covering actual criminal activity, and the organizations the accused abuser works with would be in charge of deciding whether or not they're going to get rid of said abuser... So I'm not sure what the role of an ethics committee would be. There are professional processes and standards that could be looked to. Esports should be professional, it spent two decades striving for and achieving professional legitimacy... so be professional. Some of these accusations rise to bringing in the legal system as well as in some of the accused should have law enforcement or at least civil attorneys looking into them. Some of them have before.
A liaison to the traditional legal system would be interesting. If run properly, it could help act as a deterrent for future issues, and also provide a safe and helpful environment for victims.
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The problem with Rapid coming forward is ... if you are guilty and admit it, you can open your self up to civil and criminal consequences, like if some of his stuff happened in California, it could very much be taken to court and here is the even trickier part, if you come out as innocent but are guilty ... the story you give can be used against you in court if someone sues you, you can't change your story without some damn strange circumstances and remain credible.
It is very hard for anyone who is a public figure and isn't innocent to say or do anything.
I don't take his silence to mean guilt. I believe that based on the accounts.
But silence, when someone isn't very innocent is very,very complex.
Nobody in the world would advise him to publicly respond.
He is still being called by a gamer tag.
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On June 26 2020 09:15 AttackZerg wrote:
The problem with Rapid coming forward is ... if you are guilty and admit it, you can open your self up to civil and criminal consequences, like if some of his stuff happened in California, it could very much be taken to court and here is the even trickier part, if you come out as innocent but are guilty ... the story you give can be used against you in court if someone sues you, you can't change your story without some damn strange circumstances and remain credible.
It is very hard for anyone who is a public figure and isn't innocent to say or do anything.
I don't take his silence to mean guilt. I believe that based on the accounts.
But silence, when someone isn't very innocent is very,very complex.
Nobody in the world would advise him to publicly respond.
He is still being called by a gamer tag.
I feel like you're overlooking the option that the guilty party actually accepts consequences and punishments for being guilty of abusing several people, whether that means rehabilitation or whatever else.
I mean, you're talking about how hard it is for an abuser to lie his way out of a situation, as if we should be sympathetic towards that proposition in the first place.
And I think most people here have literally asked him to publicly respond.
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On June 26 2020 09:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 09:15 AttackZerg wrote:
The problem with Rapid coming forward is ... if you are guilty and admit it, you can open your self up to civil and criminal consequences, like if some of his stuff happened in California, it could very much be taken to court and here is the even trickier part, if you come out as innocent but are guilty ... the story you give can be used against you in court if someone sues you, you can't change your story without some damn strange circumstances and remain credible.
It is very hard for anyone who is a public figure and isn't innocent to say or do anything.
I don't take his silence to mean guilt. I believe that based on the accounts.
But silence, when someone isn't very innocent is very,very complex.
Nobody in the world would advise him to publicly respond.
He is still being called by a gamer tag.
I feel like you're overlooking the option that the guilty party actually accepts consequences and punishments for being guilty of abusing several people, whether that means rehabilitation or whatever else. I mean, you're talking about how hard it is for an abuser to lie his way out of a situation, as if we should be sympathetic towards that proposition in the first place. And I think most people here have literally asked him to publicly respond.
I do not feel sorry for how hard it is.
I was responding to the thirst for him to do so.
He made the bed he sleeps in.
I have only expressed empathy for victims here.
Edit: Forgot to respond to this part.
I did TOTALLY overlook the idea of someone doing .... the right thing.
You are entirely correct, thank you.
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I am posting vaguely anonymously simply because I don't want to be tagged directly as a result of speaking out here. My post isn't specifically about sexual assault but about power, which oftentimes is a component of sexual assault and part of a much larger problem. I don't want to name names but I've been part of a famous Canadian protoss players discord for over 6 months now, constantly being told that I will one day be admin. I've been pressured into finding korean pro replays and even specific build orders for them being told "you'll be admin soon" all along the way. Last night I was finally promoted to admin ranks, and within my first half day I did more positive work for the server than all the other admins ever have. I got new soft palette colors for all the players, I also adjusted all the new nicknames to stay within a specific theme to create more unity. After finally achieving this my role was taken away from me, swept from right underneath my feet, after all the things i did to achieve it. Thats my story of power
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EPT
