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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 25 2020 23:17 dbRic1203 wrote:
There have been several posts in this thread citeing studys that only about 10% of sexual harassment is reportet and only 3% of reportet cases are not true. So defaulting in beliveing the victim until proven otherwise is right way here.
That would depend if they say they were assaulted, or if they say they were assaulted by a specific person. Unconditional support? Yes absolutely. Guilty until proven innocent? No.
3% is oddly accurate, Wikipedia's 2–10% makes more sense to me, not that it matters.
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On June 25 2020 23:30 linestein wrote:
Actually, I am glad it is not really that severe! At least not any real sexual misconduct occurred. They are just words exchanged.
That is still sexual harassment.
It s not as sever as some other stories, but still wrong and defnatly more than "just words exchanged".
Sending dick pics or chansing after someone until you find them alone to talk about this is NOT OK.
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On June 25 2020 23:34 Byproduct wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 23:17 dbRic1203 wrote:
There have been several posts in this thread citeing studys that only about 10% of sexual harassment is reportet and only 3% of reportet cases are not true. So defaulting in beliveing the victim until proven otherwise is right way here. That would depend if they say they were assaulted, or if they say they were assaulted by a specific person. Unconditional support? Yes absolutely. Guilty until proven innocent? No. 3% is oddly accurate, Wikipedia's 2–10% makes more sense to me, not that it matters.
It was a study by some US-american law enforcment bureau. Can t remember wich one it was.
It was obviously just a single study. But as it is in your 2-10% range, that is fair enough to me.
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On June 25 2020 23:33 WarSame wrote:
Why do you want them to behave that way? Every victim acts differently. Some deal with it with humor.
I've been sexually assaulted before, and dealing with it with humor was pretty effective.
I had texted my coworker about a guy grabbing my dick and the first day back at work after she was like "so were there any lacerations?" and I was like "no, just some light bruising I guess" and she said "so I guess you're not too torn up about it?"
Maybe for other people that would have been a fucked up thing to say but I found it hilarious and it helped me deal with the situation a lot better.
Would you have preferred I be a wounded victim without a sense of humor?
It is really fine when it just you and your friends... But these are serious public accusations! They should have the official quality. If you have a public goal, you must act in a consistent way. You cannot be petty!
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On June 25 2020 23:37 linestein wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 23:33 WarSame wrote:
Why do you want them to behave that way? Every victim acts differently. Some deal with it with humor.
I've been sexually assaulted before, and dealing with it with humor was pretty effective.
I had texted my coworker about a guy grabbing my dick and the first day back at work after she was like "so were there any lacerations?" and I was like "no, just some light bruising I guess" and she said "so I guess you're not too torn up about it?"
Maybe for other people that would have been a fucked up thing to say but I found it hilarious and it helped me deal with the situation a lot better.
Would you have preferred I be a wounded victim without a sense of humor? It is really fine when it just you and your friends... But these are serious public accusations! They should have the official quality. If you have a public goal, you must act in a consistent way. You cannot be petty!
How exactly would you discribe it then?
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On June 25 2020 23:32 dbRic1203 wrote:
I also just found out about this story:
TL:DR: apparently the CEO of that company, Lowko was partnered with harrassed several women, when he was manager at Sony.
I understand that not everyone is in a position like Lowko, where he can react in such a way and want to express, how thankfull I am, that he s leading as a good example.
Huge respect for Lowko.
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On June 25 2020 23:39 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 23:37 linestein wrote:On June 25 2020 23:33 WarSame wrote:
Why do you want them to behave that way? Every victim acts differently. Some deal with it with humor.
I've been sexually assaulted before, and dealing with it with humor was pretty effective.
I had texted my coworker about a guy grabbing my dick and the first day back at work after she was like "so were there any lacerations?" and I was like "no, just some light bruising I guess" and she said "so I guess you're not too torn up about it?"
Maybe for other people that would have been a fucked up thing to say but I found it hilarious and it helped me deal with the situation a lot better.
Would you have preferred I be a wounded victim without a sense of humor? It is really fine when it just you and your friends... But these are serious public accusations! They should have the official quality. If you have a public goal, you must act in a consistent way. You cannot be petty! How exactly would you discribe it then?
It is just really dumb, man! A guy comes to you and complains that he is not well-endowed so please look at some pictures? What world do we live in?
Now we are front page TL news! I just don't know. "My penis is too small could I please send you pics??" It sounds like stupid trolling, and I don't know why Rapid would do it. It's very bad for him and it's very bad for Starcraft. But is it really advertised as something like sexual assault? Sexual assault you can go to prison for 20 years! "My penis is too small..." I just don't know!
edit: OK. I will not say more it is not up to me.
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On June 25 2020 23:42 JimmiC wrote:
what is really odd is making a account on a video game site to only discuss this...
Actually I made it to comment on Mass Recall, and this caught my eye afterwards! Couldn't access my ancient TL account. But it does seem weird now that you mention it.
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On June 25 2020 23:46 linestein wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 23:39 dbRic1203 wrote:On June 25 2020 23:37 linestein wrote:On June 25 2020 23:33 WarSame wrote:
Why do you want them to behave that way? Every victim acts differently. Some deal with it with humor.
I've been sexually assaulted before, and dealing with it with humor was pretty effective.
I had texted my coworker about a guy grabbing my dick and the first day back at work after she was like "so were there any lacerations?" and I was like "no, just some light bruising I guess" and she said "so I guess you're not too torn up about it?"
Maybe for other people that would have been a fucked up thing to say but I found it hilarious and it helped me deal with the situation a lot better.
Would you have preferred I be a wounded victim without a sense of humor? It is really fine when it just you and your friends... But these are serious public accusations! They should have the official quality. If you have a public goal, you must act in a consistent way. You cannot be petty! How exactly would you discribe it then? It is just really dumb, man! A guy comes to you and complains that he is not well-endowed so please look at some pictures? What world do we live in? Now we are front page TL news! I just don't know. "My penis is too small could I please send you pics??" It sounds like stupid trolling, and I don't know why Rapid would do it. It's very bad for him and it's very bad for Starcraft. But is it really advertised as something like sexual assault? Sexual assault you can go to prison for 20 years! "My penis is too small..." I just don't know! edit: OK. I will not say more it is not up to me.
Not sexual assault, but the definition of sexual harassment is very wide, and talking about the size of your penis to someone you just met definitely fits in. This will get you fired out of any job, especially when it's a repeated offense.
Rapid is getting worse consequences than most persons normally would in the same circumstances though, being a somewhat public figure, and possibly disproportionate to the harm he's done. Gone from casting Starcraft? Yes. But having those stories come up whenever you google your full name can be devastating in itself.
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Northern Ireland26730 Posts
On June 25 2020 21:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 21:40 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 25 2020 20:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. I actually think that this may be a bit of a false equivalence, but let me speak in broader terms that aren't just about family members. My response below is also in reference to a few posts I had read earlier from people who felt they were being helpful to the overall narrative by stating that they, personally, had never experienced any abuse from some of the accused people (presumably to present a more balanced perspective). I'm not accusing you of doing this; your conversation with rwala merely reminded me that I wanted to share my thoughts about this issue. I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. Also, when I'm referring to "you" over the next few paragraphs, I don't mean you, personally (Pangpootata); I'm using "you" in the impersonal sense of the word. Suppose multiple people start lining up and corroborating stories about Person X being abusive. Suppose you know X in some capacity (ranging from limited interactions as an acquaintance to literally being a close friend or family member), and you're surprised at these accusations, as you had never noticed any indication of X being capable of, or even joking about, doing that kind of abuse. If so many people are attacking X, it may seem reasonable for you to stand on the "side" of defending X. While these self-proclaimed victims are accusing X of doing something bad, you feel it's sensible to point out that you know X to be a really good person (or, at least, not the kind of person who would be abusive). There is a difference, however, between attesting to someone's "outstanding character" in the broader sense, and being able to refute a specific assertion from a specific person at a specific time and place. Unless your defense is specifically providing an alibi or fact that directly dismantles the assertion ("X couldn't have done that over there because they were with me over here", "X is accused of something non-consensual but I have evidence that it was consensual", etc.), you're inadvertently muddying the waters. This isn't about having a character witness step forward and say X is generally a good person, in the same way it's not about having a character witness pile on against X by saying they're generally a bad person. Most people don't live their lives assuming that everyone they pass by or meet or get to know has the worst intentions, which is why we have the stereotypical interviews of "Oh my gosh, I would have never guessed that my acquaintance / friend / family member could have done that terrible thing... they seemed so normal." Even if you have a strong rapport with the individual and really feel like you know them well, that may make it more likely for you to overlook and excuse signs that third parties might see as alarming. Bias can be especially prevalent when we're discussing those we care about, and your relationship with them really doesn't imply that you understand the relationship between them and the victims. The victims aren't making the broad statement that X couldn't possibly be seen as a good person or have any meaningful relationships. If those were the accusations, then stepping forward and explaining how you actually have a good rapport with X would be a great counterexample. But a specific crime can still be committed by a person, regardless of how many hundreds of neutral or positive experiences they've had with other people. Just because you haven't experienced abuse from X doesn't mean they haven't abused others; that would be like Shopkeeper A accusing a person of robbing Store A, but Shopkeeper B saying that simply couldn't have happened because the alleged thief had never also robbed Store B. Thoughts? It may be a trite observation but how many interviews with workmates and neighbours of absolute monsters like serial killers feature variants of ‘I had no idea, they seemed such a nice person.’? I have frequently uncomfortable interactions with a former work colleague at my local bar. As we both have kids and are separated from our partners he wants to strike a rapport on how unfair women can be in terms of access. They can be absolutely, but I don’t call my ex a bitch or a cunt like he liberally does. He says she’s falsely claiming he was violent. He was fired for gathering a couple of guys and breaking into a house and assaulting a gay colleague who made a pass at him. Between the language he uses and his prior behaviour lets just say I heavily doubt his ex is making these things up. The uncomfortable part is being in a scenario where I can’t exactly point this out. There are actually quite a few, the most famous of which is Ted Bundy. There are many others who came off as completely normal with regular day jobs and plenty of neutral/positive interactions with people (H. H. Holmes, John Wayne Gacy, Andrew Cunanan, etc.). A good number of serial killers have been charismatic and friendly; they're not all super-sketchy looking or super-sketchy acting when it comes to regular interactions. But anyways, on the topic of harassment: I think your example of your former colleague is more relevant to this specific thread (especially regarding language). Other people who knew Rapid have said that although they didn't also receive dick pics, he would still talk about his penis to them. I think that nicely parallels what you're saying, although I'd also suggest that having a more... conventional... conversation with an alleged abuser doesn't disprove the possibility that abuse could happen. That's merely the point I'm making.
Agree entirely on that. One doesn’t have to be a monster, or a train wreck a la Avilo to be an abusive person.
Quite the opposite, I’d imagine many more ‘normal’ decent guys do it than outliers like the above. It’s akin to racism in a sense, it’s not just behaviour indulged in by the KKK but is widely demonstrated across society.
Accepting this both personally and then applying that in spaces we inhabit and we can create conditions where we challenge ourselves and others in making the spaces we inhabit safe and welcoming for everyone.
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On June 25 2020 13:29 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 12:51 EsportsJohn wrote:
He admitted that he was a little high but that she had a bad trip, and even if she initiated in any way, shape, or form, she was in no condition to give consent, and he knew it. If he was high then he couldn't have consented either?
Yes because it's completely binary, you got it. There is a pretty big difference between being a little high when you're used to smoking and having a bad trip like her due to a lack of experience. You don't even need any experience yourself with weed to kinda get this, there are multiple degrees to being drunk as well.
On June 25 2020 15:53 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 13:29 Jealous wrote:On June 25 2020 12:51 EsportsJohn wrote:
He admitted that he was a little high but that she had a bad trip, and even if she initiated in any way, shape, or form, she was in no condition to give consent, and he knew it. If he was high then he couldn't have consented either? But he's a man so it doesn't count
Why engage this topic with so much bad faith? Noone is out there to hurt you as a man, just accept your privilege in society and look over the boarder with some empathy for others.
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Leave RAPiD alone guys. We all wrote stupid shit back then countless times when we were young, why do you even need to bring it up after so many years? True or not, doesn't matter, he had some private conversation and making it "sexual harassment/abuse" is absurd! Are we entering the era where every fucking word is going to be censored? What RAPiD did back then isn't good but don't make drama out of it like he's rapist. It's funny how far you guys can go...
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On June 26 2020 01:02 outscar wrote:
Leave RAPiD alone guys. We all wrote stupid shit back then countless times when we were young, why do you even need to bring it up after so many years? True or not, doesn't matter, he had some private conversation and making it "sexual harassment/abuse" is absurd! Are we entering the era where every fucking word is going to be censored? What RAPiD did back then isn't good but don't make drama out of it like he's rapist. It's funny how far you guys can go...
It is sexual harassment.
Edit: Also Maryke has proof (DMs) and Serbian and South African LOL Team and beastyqt, who can all confirm her story, wich makes it pretty likely that the others are also true.
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Northern Ireland26730 Posts
On June 26 2020 01:02 outscar wrote:
Leave RAPiD alone guys. We all wrote stupid shit back then countless times when we were young, why do you even need to bring it up after so many years? True or not, doesn't matter, he had some private conversation and making it "sexual harassment/abuse" is absurd! Are we entering the era where every fucking word is going to be censored? What RAPiD did back then isn't good but don't make drama out of it like he's rapist. It's funny how far you guys can go...
Don’t behave in the ways alleged and you’re not at risk of censorship.
It’s pretty easy to step over a line from flirting into creepiness, I don’t think we’re condemning people for such transgressions.
There’s a world of difference between a misjudged attempt at humour or flirtation that’s not well received and apologising vs repeating the behaviour after people have told you it makes them uncomfortable. Especially if you’re somebody’s boss, or have status in a particular community above the subject of your behaviour.
Those are the distinctions here that are important in this alleged incident and others.
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On June 26 2020 01:02 outscar wrote:
Leave RAPiD alone guys. We all wrote stupid shit back then countless times when we were young, why do you even need to bring it up after so many years? True or not, doesn't matter, he had some private conversation and making it "sexual harassment/abuse" is absurd! Are we entering the era where every fucking word is going to be censored? What RAPiD did back then isn't good but don't make drama out of it like he's rapist. It's funny how far you guys can go...
It's amazing the amount of men who will call out the woodwork to excuse or deflect sexually abusive behaviour. Guilty consciences much?
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On June 26 2020 01:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 13:29 Jealous wrote:On June 25 2020 12:51 EsportsJohn wrote:
He admitted that he was a little high but that she had a bad trip, and even if she initiated in any way, shape, or form, she was in no condition to give consent, and he knew it. If he was high then he couldn't have consented either? Yes because it's completely binary, you got it. There is a pretty big difference between being a little high when you're used to smoking and having a bad trip like her due to a lack of experience. You don't even need any experience yourself with weed to kinda get this, there are multiple degrees to being drunk as well. Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 15:53 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2020 13:29 Jealous wrote:On June 25 2020 12:51 EsportsJohn wrote:
He admitted that he was a little high but that she had a bad trip, and even if she initiated in any way, shape, or form, she was in no condition to give consent, and he knew it. If he was high then he couldn't have consented either? But he's a man so it doesn't count Why engage this topic with so much bad faith? Noone is out there to hurt you as a man, just accept your privilege in society and look over the boarder with some empathy for others.
One of the basic tenets of consent is sobriety. A high person's estimation of how high they are, or another high person's estimation of how high another individual is, or some random online person's estimation of how high a person was a while ago based on their own experiences and opinions, are all irrelevant.
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On June 26 2020 01:24 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 01:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 25 2020 13:29 Jealous wrote:On June 25 2020 12:51 EsportsJohn wrote:
He admitted that he was a little high but that she had a bad trip, and even if she initiated in any way, shape, or form, she was in no condition to give consent, and he knew it. If he was high then he couldn't have consented either? Yes because it's completely binary, you got it. There is a pretty big difference between being a little high when you're used to smoking and having a bad trip like her due to a lack of experience. You don't even need any experience yourself with weed to kinda get this, there are multiple degrees to being drunk as well. On June 25 2020 15:53 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2020 13:29 Jealous wrote:On June 25 2020 12:51 EsportsJohn wrote:
He admitted that he was a little high but that she had a bad trip, and even if she initiated in any way, shape, or form, she was in no condition to give consent, and he knew it. If he was high then he couldn't have consented either? But he's a man so it doesn't count Why engage this topic with so much bad faith? Noone is out there to hurt you as a man, just accept your privilege in society and look over the boarder with some empathy for others. One of the basic tenets of consent is sobriety. A high person's estimation of how high they are, or another high person's estimation of how high another individual is, or some random online person's estimation of how high a person was a while ago based on their own experiences and opinions, are all irrelevant.
Thankfully it's not my estimation but hers. But you simply don't wanna make that count and instead engage in acts of defending the perpetrator who didn't even use this defense himself! (he simply denied it outright) Not that i am surprised.
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