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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 25 2020 16:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 15:59 Jealous wrote:On June 25 2020 15:41 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting. That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob? Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, I I didn't think about how the terminology could be upsetting but now I know. Thanks to you. Don't waste your time humoring someone who has dedicated thousands of posts and hours into mastering the art of turning every subject, no matter how pressing or unrelated, into being about themselves or their agenda. I appreciate the inadvertent compliment. Good to know my efforts toward my agenda of an equitable and just society/community is recognized and so virulently opposed by people like yourself.
Report the post. Start a new thread. This is simply not the place for it. Just as I am sure that the BLM movement would not appreciate people trying to detract and distract from a discussion centered on their issues, I don't think that you should feel comfortable going full GH on an unrelated topic in a thread about sexual harassment victims. Ffs
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On June 25 2020 15:48 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 15:41 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting. That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob? Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, how else would I have known the terminology is upsetting? Now I know. Don't care what you claim your intention was. It's unacceptable. The whole post, but especially the "lynching" rhetoric. Same with Pang. Absurd to have this thread and let it continue. Either the community is cleaning this stuff up or it's not.
I can see how the lynching rhetoric is offensive and I apologize for that. I won't be using that term anymore. I don't see an issue with the rest of my post or Pang's. Because you don't agree doesn't mean it shouldn't continue. Some people are willing and trying to listen, but everyone starts with their current stance which may be different from yours. Like most people I'm not going to just roll over and be enlightened by reading a few strongly worded posts online. Making people feel attacked is good at making their beliefs stronger, not changing them. For example, I dislike cancel culture even more now due to your approach.
I especially don't think cancelling the thread because it's absurd is the right move either. The tone that I'm picking up from you, irregardless of what's right or wrong, is to just cancel things you don't agree with. Admittedly it is effective short-term but I don't think it's a long-term solution. Silencing people doesn't remove them from the face of the planet.
I try and I hear good arguments from both sides. Generally I think solutions live in the messy middle, but I could be wrong.
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Anything I missed in the last 10 ish hours, appart from that Apollo looks into Avilo playing at ESL tournaments and one Tournament Organiser not hiring Rapid anymore?
Don t have the time to read through 6 extra pages now, was just scrolling for links.
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On June 25 2020 16:10 dbRic1203 wrote:
Anything I missed in the last 10 ish hours, appart from that Apollo looks into Avilo playing at ESL tournaments and one Tournament Organiser not hiring Rapid anymore?
Don t have the time to read through 6 extra pages now, was just scrolling for links.
Rapid has also been removed from casting SC AI events through SCHNAIL.
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On June 25 2020 16:12 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 16:10 dbRic1203 wrote:
Anything I missed in the last 10 ish hours, appart from that Apollo looks into Avilo playing at ESL tournaments and one Tournament Organiser not hiring Rapid anymore?
Don t have the time to read through 6 extra pages now, was just scrolling for links. Rapid has also been removed from casting SC AI events through SCHNAIL.
So I gues still no statement from Rapid about all of this?
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On June 25 2020 15:59 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 15:41 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting. That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob? Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, I I didn't think about how the terminology could be upsetting but now I know. Thanks to you. Don't waste your time humoring someone who has dedicated thousands of posts and hours into mastering the art of turning every subject, no matter how pressing or unrelated, into being about themselves or their agenda.
Cancel culture, vindictive arguments, and group think has gotten so out of control from every side of every argument. Someone has to try to bridge the gap, otherwise 50% of people will always be unhappy and that in itself is a broken society. Trump won the silent majority, there will always be a "silent" majority if we keep up with the way things are.
It's messy but I'm gonna try.
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On June 25 2020 14:40 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
personally I think the term internet mob is probably the best term to use as well as the most accurate if you must call it something.
honestly the best action is always probably a suspension pending an investigation where you evaluate afterwards depending on if there's anything there. It's weird when their streamers/personalities and not working for someone necessarily but I'm sure you can come up with an equivalent.
+1
User was warned for this post
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On June 25 2020 16:10 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 15:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 15:41 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting. That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob? Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, how else would I have known the terminology is upsetting? Now I know. Don't care what you claim your intention was. It's unacceptable. The whole post, but especially the "lynching" rhetoric. Same with Pang. Absurd to have this thread and let it continue. Either the community is cleaning this stuff up or it's not. I can see how the lynching rhetoric is offensive and I apologize for that. I won't be using that term anymore. I don't see an issue with the rest of my post or Pang's. Because you don't agree doesn't mean it shouldn't continue. Some people are willing and trying to listen, but everyone starts with their current stance which may be different from yours. Like most people I'm not going to just roll over and be enlightened by reading a few strongly worded posts online. Making people feel attacked is good at making their beliefs stronger, not changing them. For example, I dislike cancel culture even more now due to your approach. I especially don't think cancelling the thread because it's absurd is the right move either. The tone that I'm picking up from you, irregardless of what's right or wrong, is to just cancel things you don't agree with. Admittedly it is effective short-term but I don't think it's a long-term solution. Silencing people doesn't remove them from the face of the planet. I try and I hear good arguments from both sides. Generally I think solutions live in the messy middle, but I could be wrong.
Hopefully others deal with the rest of the enabling stuff but I'm going to point out that "witch hunt" as seen in Pang's post is also unrelentingly offensive. How it's not glaringly obvious is beyond me, but any cursory understanding of the history of "witch hunts" or "sir" Matthew Hale should have people outraged, livid even, at its use in this context.
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On June 25 2020 16:17 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 15:59 Jealous wrote:On June 25 2020 15:41 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting. That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob? Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, I I didn't think about how the terminology could be upsetting but now I know. Thanks to you. Don't waste your time humoring someone who has dedicated thousands of posts and hours into mastering the art of turning every subject, no matter how pressing or unrelated, into being about themselves or their agenda. Cancel culture, vindictive arguments, and group think has gotten so out of control from every side of every argument. Someone has to try to bridge the gap, otherwise 50% of people will always be unhappy and that in itself is a broken society. Trump won the silent majority, there will always be a "silent" majority if we keep up with the way things are. It's messy but I'm gonna try.
Technically Trump didnt win the majority but thats a bit offtopic :D
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On June 25 2020 16:17 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 15:59 Jealous wrote:On June 25 2020 15:41 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting. That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob? Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, I I didn't think about how the terminology could be upsetting but now I know. Thanks to you. Don't waste your time humoring someone who has dedicated thousands of posts and hours into mastering the art of turning every subject, no matter how pressing or unrelated, into being about themselves or their agenda. Cancel culture, vindictive arguments, and group think has gotten so out of control from every side of every argument. Someone has to try to bridge the gap, otherwise 50% of people will always be unhappy and that in itself is a broken society. Trump won the silent majority, there will always be a "silent" majority if we keep up with the way things are. It's messy but I'm gonna try.
When did this become a thread about US Politics and Trump?
Can we please stay on Topic everyone?
This is about helping the victims and trying to prevent futher sexual harassment in our scene.
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On June 25 2020 16:23 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 16:17 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 15:59 Jealous wrote:On June 25 2020 15:41 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting. That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob? Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, I I didn't think about how the terminology could be upsetting but now I know. Thanks to you. Don't waste your time humoring someone who has dedicated thousands of posts and hours into mastering the art of turning every subject, no matter how pressing or unrelated, into being about themselves or their agenda. Cancel culture, vindictive arguments, and group think has gotten so out of control from every side of every argument. Someone has to try to bridge the gap, otherwise 50% of people will always be unhappy and that in itself is a broken society. Trump won the silent majority, there will always be a "silent" majority if we keep up with the way things are. It's messy but I'm gonna try. When did this become a thread about US Politics and Trump? Can we please stay on Topic everyone? This is about helping the victims and trying to prevent futher sexual harassment in our scene.
You're right. It's too easy to get off topic.
Let's make sure we adequately punish the accusers who are guilty and adequately help the victims involved.
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On June 25 2020 16:22 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 16:10 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 15:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 15:41 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting. That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob? Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, how else would I have known the terminology is upsetting? Now I know. Don't care what you claim your intention was. It's unacceptable. The whole post, but especially the "lynching" rhetoric. Same with Pang. Absurd to have this thread and let it continue. Either the community is cleaning this stuff up or it's not. I can see how the lynching rhetoric is offensive and I apologize for that. I won't be using that term anymore. I don't see an issue with the rest of my post or Pang's. Because you don't agree doesn't mean it shouldn't continue. Some people are willing and trying to listen, but everyone starts with their current stance which may be different from yours. Like most people I'm not going to just roll over and be enlightened by reading a few strongly worded posts online. Making people feel attacked is good at making their beliefs stronger, not changing them. For example, I dislike cancel culture even more now due to your approach. I especially don't think cancelling the thread because it's absurd is the right move either. The tone that I'm picking up from you, irregardless of what's right or wrong, is to just cancel things you don't agree with. Admittedly it is effective short-term but I don't think it's a long-term solution. Silencing people doesn't remove them from the face of the planet. I try and I hear good arguments from both sides. Generally I think solutions live in the messy middle, but I could be wrong. Hopefully others deal with the rest of the enabling stuff but I'm going to point out that "witch hunt" as seen in Pang's post is also unrelentingly offensive. How it's not glaringly obvious is beyond me, but any cursory understanding of the history of "witch hunts" or "sir" Matthew Hale should have people outraged, livid even, at its use in this context.
It's starting to feel like you just have a much deeper understanding of history than most people and your perspective comes from this. Unfortunately that's a hard hill to climb too, most people aren't willing to go out of their way to learn history.
Sorry last off-topic post.
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On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH
the quote here honestly says what I want to say a million times better but let me try anyway:
It's quite honestly incredible to me just how quickly this conversation has turned from supporting those who suffered, protecting victims and those who could be in the future and "cleaning house" of people that are actively damaging others in the community to making those accused of sexual harassment the victims of some sort of "internet mob".
It's ridiculously frustrating to have had so many women have mustered up the courage and come forward with what they've had to say and to be met with the response being "yeah, but it's wrong to mob the abusers". Why are we protecting those that have been abusing women for years? Why are we not focusing on protecting women from sexual harassment as they deserve it? Honestly all that just sounds ridiculously misogynistic to me.
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On June 25 2020 17:03 Kori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH the quote here honestly says what I want to say a million times better but let me try anyway: It's quite honestly incredible to me just how quickly this conversation has turned from supporting those who suffered, protecting victims and those who could be in the future and "cleaning house" of people that are actively damaging others in the community to making those accused of sexual harassment the victims of some sort of "internet mob". It's ridiculously frustrating to have had so many women have mustered up the courage and come forward with what they've had to say and to be met with the response being "yeah, but it's wrong to mob the abusers". Why are we protecting those that have been abusing women for years? Why are we not focusing on protecting women from sexual harassment as they deserve it? Honestly all that just sounds ridiculously misogynistic to me.
You know what is ridiculous? You totally ignoring TLOs story. It is sitting there in very prominent place in the OP, it is hard to miss. Its not only women that suffer harrasment.
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i understand what the people are saying about the internet mob mentality and i generally agree that you should not jump on a claim without evidence but in rapids situation all the stories are very similar, not necessarily to the degree of sexual assault but somewhere along the line of: sexual harassment - insanely cringy flirting tactics. i think that hes surely seen the allegations and the fact that he has not come out quickly and said "these allegations are absolutely outrageous, i have never treated women this way" is proof that he is not innocent. the fact that all these women would make allegations against rapid with very similar stories at real gaming events in detailed situations is pretty damning proof. most of the girls sound like they had verbal conversations with rapid one-on-one in person when he said sexually explicit comments making it pretty safe for rapid to try to talk like this and not have sexual harassment case looming over his head because he knew it would be their words against his if it came down to something like this
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On June 25 2020 16:54 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 16:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 16:10 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 15:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 15:41 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting. That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob? Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, how else would I have known the terminology is upsetting? Now I know. Don't care what you claim your intention was. It's unacceptable. The whole post, but especially the "lynching" rhetoric. Same with Pang. Absurd to have this thread and let it continue. Either the community is cleaning this stuff up or it's not. I can see how the lynching rhetoric is offensive and I apologize for that. I won't be using that term anymore. I don't see an issue with the rest of my post or Pang's. Because you don't agree doesn't mean it shouldn't continue. Some people are willing and trying to listen, but everyone starts with their current stance which may be different from yours. Like most people I'm not going to just roll over and be enlightened by reading a few strongly worded posts online. Making people feel attacked is good at making their beliefs stronger, not changing them. For example, I dislike cancel culture even more now due to your approach. I especially don't think cancelling the thread because it's absurd is the right move either. The tone that I'm picking up from you, irregardless of what's right or wrong, is to just cancel things you don't agree with. Admittedly it is effective short-term but I don't think it's a long-term solution. Silencing people doesn't remove them from the face of the planet. I try and I hear good arguments from both sides. Generally I think solutions live in the messy middle, but I could be wrong. Hopefully others deal with the rest of the enabling stuff but I'm going to point out that "witch hunt" as seen in Pang's post is also unrelentingly offensive. How it's not glaringly obvious is beyond me, but any cursory understanding of the history of "witch hunts" or "sir" Matthew Hale should have people outraged, livid even, at its use in this context. It's starting to feel like you just have a much deeper understanding of history than most people and your perspective comes from this. Unfortunately that's a hard hill to climb too, most people aren't willing to go out of their way to learn history. Sorry last off-topic post.
Yet so much energy to call for tepidity in the face of a well established and pervasive problem causing unimaginable harm to members of the community.
The TLDR on Hale and "witch hunts": Hale established that married women couldn't be raped by their husbands and was key in literal witch hunts. Witch hunts where women were tortured and murdered by hysteric men protecting other abusive men.
So when people refer to women, and their allies seeking accountability in the community for sexual misconduct, it's offensive af to use the term "witch hunt" and shouldn't be tolerated or coddled imo.
I understand people are going to be allowed to argue "the other side" or whatever, but the "witch hunt" (or "lynching") is just not going to be acceptable to me. I think the "mob" references are inappropriately dismissive and crucifixion references remarkably offensive and enabling as well, but I've learned to keep my bar pretty low.
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Dang this thread was going full reddit and back in a day.
Glad someone is updating the OP with the most important stuff, so I don't have to sift through this .... strange thread
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I think there is a distinction between men who leverage their power in a community to try to negotiate sex out of women (or whatever kind of "genitalia pic e-sex" this shit is) versus men who are simply degenerate in how they appeal to women and HAPPEN to have status in a community that they are both a part of. The first is a very big offense, because the male is using power that he has to pressure a woman into certain ends, at her expense if she doesn't comply. The second is simply a degenerate male, who should probably stop being degenerate (since it is both not very effective and is making a lot of people's lives worse), but can still be refused by the woman that he is appealing to at little or no expense to the woman. I'm not saying that some of these cases aren't murky, and that sometimes it isn't hard to make this distinction, but I do think that we should evaluate these men based on which of these groups they may fall into.
I've been in positions before where people with power in a group will hit on me. If they overstep their bounds there is an issue. But it is only harassment if they perpetually overstep boundaries when notified that they shouldn't, and it is only an abuse of power if they leverage their status to try to force me into a reaction. The onus is on me to make it clear to them in the moment that they are out of line. I understand that women often are scared to speak up, I think part of fixing the society is encouraging them to speak up right away.
Also:
With some of these stories, it sounds like the guy totally lacks empathy and can't tell what is appropriate or reasonable for getting attention from women. I had terrible internet role models as a teen and young adult (they were probably the forerunners of what would later be known as MGTOW, Incels, and Red Pill'ers) and developed some pretty awful beliefs about what was the right way to get attention from women. I hope RAPID and Avilo can change and find better ways now that their bubble has been burst. I don't think the men who do this kind of stuff often know how pernicious it is. Others simply have a negative outlook on life in general due to childhood trauma (perhaps they were an ugly or weird kid) and don't realize the extent in which their behavior is unwarranted in this world. I don't mean this to excuse their actions, since no one really should have to be on the receiving end of this totally out of bounds behavior, but I bring this up because I think the conversation should focus on healing the community, rather than simply punishing it's offenders. That is to say, focus on restorative justice rather than punitive justice.
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On June 25 2020 17:20 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 17:03 Kori wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH the quote here honestly says what I want to say a million times better but let me try anyway: It's quite honestly incredible to me just how quickly this conversation has turned from supporting those who suffered, protecting victims and those who could be in the future and "cleaning house" of people that are actively damaging others in the community to making those accused of sexual harassment the victims of some sort of "internet mob". It's ridiculously frustrating to have had so many women have mustered up the courage and come forward with what they've had to say and to be met with the response being "yeah, but it's wrong to mob the abusers". Why are we protecting those that have been abusing women for years? Why are we not focusing on protecting women from sexual harassment as they deserve it? Honestly all that just sounds ridiculously misogynistic to me. You know what is ridiculous? You totally ignoring TLOs story. It is sitting there in very prominent place in the OP, it is hard to miss. Its not only women that suffer harrasment.
I'm not saying that TLO and Pengwin weren't suffering or having issues at all, but my point is that from what I've gathered they really haven't been questioned as much as someone like Atira, Deity and others. Obviously sexual harassment happens to both men and women and we should be listening to TLO and PengWin and other men coming forward about sexual harassment, but my issue here is that the people that have been claiming we need to hear both sides have almost always been doing so in regards to women coming forward about people like Rapid (or even Avilo at points)
Also really quickly wanna acknowledge that sexual harassment of men is a topic that gets too little attention and I'm really really really thankful for TLO and Pengwin for doing the incredible work they've been doing over the past few days.
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I used to root for Rapid -- even though you could tell he was not very skilled at Starcraft, he still deserved more credit than all the hate he got, at least for being professional and enthusiastic in his casting.
Those stories, even if they're 20% true... I don't understand what goes into a man's head to behave that way. This goes way beyond being socially inept and awkward flirting.
By losing his casting gigs and having his full name on Google associated with those sexual harassment stories, on top of the social humiliation he's receiving, he's already being more harshly punished for those encounters than any person would normally be for that.
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