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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 25 2020 09:18 AttackZerg wrote:
Edit - To SootShade
The way people can tell you aren't acting in good faith...
This is not an argument. This is not a school yard theoretical debate topic.
You are spending your calculated energy to derail and degrade a conversation based upon the fact that it is happening.
The accusations bother you, people reacting to it bothers you everything bothers you and you are glad people are succinctly proving your points?
ONE OF THE FUCKING ACCUSATIONS IS ABOUT A GROWN MAN COMMITTING ATTEMPTED AND PREMEDITATED RAPE ON A COMMUNITY MEMBER, WHO WAS SAVED BY A FUCKING CORSET AND SHE DIDN'T FEEL COMFORTABLE IN OUR COMMUNITY COMING FORWARD FOR 9 YEARS.
This is not a debate, stop trying to win. That is the definition of bad faith.
Argumentation is one of the building blocks of a genuine discussion. If you lack the emotional maturity to engage with disagreement, do not start preaching at me.
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I used to talk to Rapid for about 1.5 – 2 years. While I don’t think he is a bad person, some of the things he said to me definitely crossed the line. However, speaking on my own personal experience with him, I don’t believe it was ever malicious. I want to be clear my interpretation of the things Reid said to me are not that he sexually harassed me. I firmly believe in keeping private conversations private, however some of the things people allege that he has said, were definitely said to me, and they did make me feel uncomfortable sometimes. A conversation would randomly turn sexual, or him talking about his “size”. However, any time I ever told him that what he said made me uncomfortable, he immediately apologized and stopped. I haven’t talked to Rapid since November of 2019, and I don’t want to make excuses for him, but I think sometimes he doesn’t realize the things he says are way too much. Based solely on my experience with him, I don’t believe he deserves to be crucified, however I have no idea what he said to others and in what context he presented the things he said. I don’t want to defend or condemn Rapid. I just wanted to share my experience with him.
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ffs what is with people and using the crucifixion/lynch mob/witch hunt rhetoric?
Are we collectively that historically ignorant or does how wildly inappropriate that is really just not resonate?
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On June 25 2020 09:35 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 09:15 SootShade wrote:On June 25 2020 09:09 Zealously wrote:You should probably be aware that a false rape accusation in a legal context does not always mean the rape did not happen. Per this sociologist who has studied false rape accusations extensively, the commonly cited FBI statistic for false rape accusations is extremely misleading. "Overall, an estimated 8 to 10 percent of women are thought to report their rapes to the police, which means that — at the very highest — we can infer that 90 percent of rapes go unreported, says Belknap." What is this based off of again? It is cited to this https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1077801210387749 feel free to pick it up and read it if you distrust the numbers. And the many many other research papers it cites are also listed for your reading pleasure.
Thanks!
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On June 25 2020 09:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
ffs what is with people and using the crucifixion/lynch mob/witch hunt rhetoric?
Are we collectively that historically ignorant or does how wildly inappropriate that is really just not resonate?
The language we have for this conversation is still developing.
The few pieces of collectively shared language we have to describe the many lambasting the few is the problem.
I don't think they use it ignorant of it's meaning, I think they are using that meaning to make their points.
I think it is a language problem more then a dumbness problem.
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On June 25 2020 09:45 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 09:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
ffs what is with people and using the crucifixion/lynch mob/witch hunt rhetoric?
Are we collectively that historically ignorant or does how wildly inappropriate that is really just not resonate? The language we have for this conversation is still developing. The few pieces of collectively shared language we have to describe the many lambasting the few is the problem. I don't think they use it ignorant of it's meaning, I think they are using that meaning to make their points. I think it is a language problem more then a dumbness problem.
They should just use what people are actually talking about. Characterizing community accountability as crucifying, lynching, or a witch hunt is not just disgustingly offensive, it's enabling behavior (so is continuing to allow it imo).
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United States4883 Posts
On June 25 2020 09:18 -Kyo- wrote:
I already posted my thoughts on one of the accusations on reddit, but the only other thing I'll add after reading through this thread is how horribly written some of EsportsJohn's sentences are in terms of fairness, objectivity, and legal standing. Sexual allegations are something to be investigated seriously by authorities; and therefore, have real consequences for both sides. It stands to reason then, if any one of these were brought to court, that evidence and proof of said situations would be paramount. It doesn't really help your case when you come into a thread telling everyone to fuck themselves and that they're pieces of garbage etc. The tone of that post is way out of line and sounds like an emotional student who is part of the 4th wave feminist movement. :/
You missed the point of the post then. If your immediate response to multiple women speaking up about sexual harassment and assault is to immediately think, "Well, she might be lying," you are a part of the problem because you are defending the status quo and contributing to an environment where it's unsafe for women to speak out in fear of retaliation. This is not a court of law, this is a systemic social problem in which women are told that it's their fault they got raped and are questioned on every detail regarding their trauma and discomfort because we're more concerned with ruining the reputation of men than preserving the wellbeing of women who might potentially be scarred for life because of a violent encounter with someone who betrayed their trust.
So when I say, "fuck you" to people who hide behind praise of objectivity to mask their unwillingness to believe (specifically) women and continue to foster a hostile environment toward them, I mean it because it's clear that you have no regard for the wellbeing of women.
I have so much respect for the patience that DarkPlasmaBall and Wombat have shown in this thread while continuing to engage and educate people—it's really important to have those voices in this discussion—but I think it's also important to call out bullshit for what it is, and since no one else was doing it and because (understandably) the mods were unable to enforce things properly, I took it into my own hands to highlight the egregious faults of the noble anti-accusation white knights. Did I make you feel uncomfortable? Good.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 25 2020 09:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
ffs what is with people and using the crucifixion/lynch mob/witch hunt rhetoric?
Are we collectively that historically ignorant or does how wildly inappropriate that is really just not resonate?
Hugely in favor of this sentiment. A lot of our beliefs are hardwired into our language, and in order to create social progress, we need to be aware of our words and adjust our language to accurately reflect our beliefs. Using these terms colloquially without pausing to determine their origin or meaning is why we tend to repeat past offenses by continuing in the same mindset.
It is a gross appropriation of concept to use crucifixion/lynch mob/witch hunt to indicate that oppressors are in danger from a minority of few who speak out against systemic racism and sexism, and it's a red flag that the rhetoric being used has no base in historical understanding or common decency.
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On June 25 2020 10:01 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 09:45 AttackZerg wrote:On June 25 2020 09:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
ffs what is with people and using the crucifixion/lynch mob/witch hunt rhetoric?
Are we collectively that historically ignorant or does how wildly inappropriate that is really just not resonate? The language we have for this conversation is still developing. The few pieces of collectively shared language we have to describe the many lambasting the few is the problem. I don't think they use it ignorant of it's meaning, I think they are using that meaning to make their points. I think it is a language problem more then a dumbness problem. They should just use what people are actually talking about. Characterizing community accountability as crucifying, lynching, or a witch hunt is not just disgustingly offensive, it's enabling behavior (so is continuing to allow it imo).
I had not thought about it that way.
Saying we are a witch hunt or Romans torturing and murdering Jews discredits the conversation and the victim.
Fair point.
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On June 25 2020 10:17 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 09:18 -Kyo- wrote:
I already posted my thoughts on one of the accusations on reddit, but the only other thing I'll add after reading through this thread is how horribly written some of EsportsJohn's sentences are in terms of fairness, objectivity, and legal standing. Sexual allegations are something to be investigated seriously by authorities; and therefore, have real consequences for both sides. It stands to reason then, if any one of these were brought to court, that evidence and proof of said situations would be paramount. It doesn't really help your case when you come into a thread telling everyone to fuck themselves and that they're pieces of garbage etc. The tone of that post is way out of line and sounds like an emotional student who is part of the 4th wave feminist movement. :/ You missed the point of the post then. If your immediate response to multiple women speaking up about sexual harassment and assault is to immediately think, "Well, she might be lying," you are a part of the problem because you are defending the status quo and contributing to an environment where it's unsafe for women to speak out in fear of retaliation. This is not a court of law, this is a systemic social problem in which women are told that it's their fault they got raped and are questioned on every detail regarding their trauma and discomfort because we're more concerned with ruining the reputation of men than preserving the wellbeing of women who might potentially be scarred for life because of a violent encounter with someone who betrayed their trust. So when I say, "fuck you" to people who hide behind praise of objectivity to mask their unwillingness to believe (specifically) women and continue to foster a hostile environment toward them, I mean it because it's clear that you have no regard for the wellbeing of women. I have so much respect for the patience that DarkPlasmaBall and Wombat have shown in this thread while continuing to engage and educate people—it's really important to have those voices in this discussion—but I think it's also important to call out bullshit for what it is, and since no one else was doing it and because (understandably) the mods were unable to enforce things properly, I took it into my own hands to highlight the egregious faults of the noble anti-accusation white knights. Did I make you feel uncomfortable? Good.
hi, thank you for not reading my post. i never said anything about my opinion or thoughts on what the people have said, and if anything, i am more inclined to believe those who come out with many similar stories against one person. nonetheless, i reserve my judgement because i am not the person who decides who is wrong or right. i also mentioned on reddit that it is possible to be empathetic towards people without passing judgement on the veracity of their claims.
but, what i do want to point out is that you are not acting with much reason in your posts. i mean, you dont have to look past the part i bolded... i never mentioned my position on anything in the post and you jumped to: you are part of the problem because you make it unsafe for people... ???????
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On June 25 2020 10:17 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 09:18 -Kyo- wrote:
I already posted my thoughts on one of the accusations on reddit, but the only other thing I'll add after reading through this thread is how horribly written some of EsportsJohn's sentences are in terms of fairness, objectivity, and legal standing. Sexual allegations are something to be investigated seriously by authorities; and therefore, have real consequences for both sides. It stands to reason then, if any one of these were brought to court, that evidence and proof of said situations would be paramount. It doesn't really help your case when you come into a thread telling everyone to fuck themselves and that they're pieces of garbage etc. The tone of that post is way out of line and sounds like an emotional student who is part of the 4th wave feminist movement. :/ You missed the point of the post then. If your immediate response to multiple women speaking up about sexual harassment and assault is to immediately think, "Well, she might be lying," you are a part of the problem because you are defending the status quo and contributing to an environment where it's unsafe for women to speak out in fear of retaliation. This is not a court of law, this is a systemic social problem in which women are told that it's their fault they got raped and are questioned on every detail regarding their trauma and discomfort because we're more concerned with ruining the reputation of men than preserving the wellbeing of women who might potentially be scarred for life because of a violent encounter with someone who betrayed their trust. So when I say, "fuck you" to people who hide behind praise of objectivity to mask their unwillingness to believe (specifically) women and continue to foster a hostile environment toward them, I mean it because it's clear that you have no regard for the wellbeing of women. I have so much respect for the patience that DarkPlasmaBall and Wombat have shown in this thread while continuing to engage and educate people—it's really important to have those voices in this discussion—but I think it's also important to call out bullshit for what it is, and since no one else was doing it and because (understandably) the mods were unable to enforce things properly, I took it into my own hands to highlight the egregious faults of the noble anti-accusation white knights. Did I make you feel uncomfortable? Good.
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 25 2020 10:55 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 10:17 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 25 2020 09:18 -Kyo- wrote:
I already posted my thoughts on one of the accusations on reddit, but the only other thing I'll add after reading through this thread is how horribly written some of EsportsJohn's sentences are in terms of fairness, objectivity, and legal standing. Sexual allegations are something to be investigated seriously by authorities; and therefore, have real consequences for both sides. It stands to reason then, if any one of these were brought to court, that evidence and proof of said situations would be paramount. It doesn't really help your case when you come into a thread telling everyone to fuck themselves and that they're pieces of garbage etc. The tone of that post is way out of line and sounds like an emotional student who is part of the 4th wave feminist movement. :/ You missed the point of the post then. If your immediate response to multiple women speaking up about sexual harassment and assault is to immediately think, "Well, she might be lying," you are a part of the problem because you are defending the status quo and contributing to an environment where it's unsafe for women to speak out in fear of retaliation. This is not a court of law, this is a systemic social problem in which women are told that it's their fault they got raped and are questioned on every detail regarding their trauma and discomfort because we're more concerned with ruining the reputation of men than preserving the wellbeing of women who might potentially be scarred for life because of a violent encounter with someone who betrayed their trust. So when I say, "fuck you" to people who hide behind praise of objectivity to mask their unwillingness to believe (specifically) women and continue to foster a hostile environment toward them, I mean it because it's clear that you have no regard for the wellbeing of women. I have so much respect for the patience that DarkPlasmaBall and Wombat have shown in this thread while continuing to engage and educate people—it's really important to have those voices in this discussion—but I think it's also important to call out bullshit for what it is, and since no one else was doing it and because (understandably) the mods were unable to enforce things properly, I took it into my own hands to highlight the egregious faults of the noble anti-accusation white knights. Did I make you feel uncomfortable? Good. hi, thank you for not reading my post. i never said anything about my opinion or thoughts on what the people have said, and if anything, i am more inclined to believe those who come out with many similar stories against one person. nonetheless, i reserve my judgement because i am not the person who decides who is wrong or right. i also mentioned on reddit that it is possible to be empathetic towards people without passing judgement on the veracity of their claims. but, what i do want to point out is that you are not acting with much reason in your posts. i mean, you dont have to look past the part i bolded... i never mentioned my position on anything in the post and you jumped to: you are part of the problem because you make it unsafe for people... ???????
I'll err on the side of caution here and assume that we're not on the same page language-wise. "You" in the context of my previous post refers to a general "you", not specifically you-Kyo. This is partially qualified by the "if" statement at the beginning of my comment. I'm not directly attacking you.
(I am speaking directly to you-Kyo here though): I'm not sure how else to lay bare the foundations of misogyny for you though, since you find all of my previous explanations incoherent and without reason despite ample subject matter to back it up. In the same way that we need to acknowledge "white privilege" as a very real and dangerous threat to minorities, we need to acknowledge that "masculine privilege" is also very real real and dangerous to women, and so my goal is to make you feel uncomfortable about these things because you should.
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On June 25 2020 10:55 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 10:17 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 25 2020 09:18 -Kyo- wrote:
I already posted my thoughts on one of the accusations on reddit, but the only other thing I'll add after reading through this thread is how horribly written some of EsportsJohn's sentences are in terms of fairness, objectivity, and legal standing. Sexual allegations are something to be investigated seriously by authorities; and therefore, have real consequences for both sides. It stands to reason then, if any one of these were brought to court, that evidence and proof of said situations would be paramount. It doesn't really help your case when you come into a thread telling everyone to fuck themselves and that they're pieces of garbage etc. The tone of that post is way out of line and sounds like an emotional student who is part of the 4th wave feminist movement. :/ You missed the point of the post then. If your immediate response to multiple women speaking up about sexual harassment and assault is to immediately think, "Well, she might be lying," you are a part of the problem because you are defending the status quo and contributing to an environment where it's unsafe for women to speak out in fear of retaliation. This is not a court of law, this is a systemic social problem in which women are told that it's their fault they got raped and are questioned on every detail regarding their trauma and discomfort because we're more concerned with ruining the reputation of men than preserving the wellbeing of women who might potentially be scarred for life because of a violent encounter with someone who betrayed their trust. So when I say, "fuck you" to people who hide behind praise of objectivity to mask their unwillingness to believe (specifically) women and continue to foster a hostile environment toward them, I mean it because it's clear that you have no regard for the wellbeing of women. I have so much respect for the patience that DarkPlasmaBall and Wombat have shown in this thread while continuing to engage and educate people—it's really important to have those voices in this discussion—but I think it's also important to call out bullshit for what it is, and since no one else was doing it and because (understandably) the mods were unable to enforce things properly, I took it into my own hands to highlight the egregious faults of the noble anti-accusation white knights. Did I make you feel uncomfortable? Good. hi, thank you for not reading my post. i never said anything about my opinion or thoughts on what the people have said, and if anything, i am more inclined to believe those who come out with many similar stories against one person. nonetheless, i reserve my judgement because i am not the person who decides who is wrong or right. i also mentioned on reddit that it is possible to be empathetic towards people without passing judgement on the veracity of their claims. but, what i do want to point out is that you are not acting with much reason in your posts. i mean, you dont have to look past the part i bolded... i never mentioned my position on anything in the post and you jumped to: you are part of the problem because you make it unsafe for people... ???????
I bolded an important part here - this is a worthless point. You are fully entilted to judge because you are you, a person with a functional brain and the ability to discern between two arguments by weight and probability. You decided for yourself whether it is right or wrong. You don't need to be in a position of power to have a powerful position on something.
I have an extremely extremely hard time believing that if someone you cared about told you they were raped you would say "i reserve my judgement because i am not the person who decides who is wrong or right".
On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 10:17 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 25 2020 09:18 -Kyo- wrote:
I already posted my thoughts on one of the accusations on reddit, but the only other thing I'll add after reading through this thread is how horribly written some of EsportsJohn's sentences are in terms of fairness, objectivity, and legal standing. Sexual allegations are something to be investigated seriously by authorities; and therefore, have real consequences for both sides. It stands to reason then, if any one of these were brought to court, that evidence and proof of said situations would be paramount. It doesn't really help your case when you come into a thread telling everyone to fuck themselves and that they're pieces of garbage etc. The tone of that post is way out of line and sounds like an emotional student who is part of the 4th wave feminist movement. :/ You missed the point of the post then. If your immediate response to multiple women speaking up about sexual harassment and assault is to immediately think, "Well, she might be lying," you are a part of the problem because you are defending the status quo and contributing to an environment where it's unsafe for women to speak out in fear of retaliation. This is not a court of law, this is a systemic social problem in which women are told that it's their fault they got raped and are questioned on every detail regarding their trauma and discomfort because we're more concerned with ruining the reputation of men than preserving the wellbeing of women who might potentially be scarred for life because of a violent encounter with someone who betrayed their trust. So when I say, "fuck you" to people who hide behind praise of objectivity to mask their unwillingness to believe (specifically) women and continue to foster a hostile environment toward them, I mean it because it's clear that you have no regard for the wellbeing of women. I have so much respect for the patience that DarkPlasmaBall and Wombat have shown in this thread while continuing to engage and educate people—it's really important to have those voices in this discussion—but I think it's also important to call out bullshit for what it is, and since no one else was doing it and because (understandably) the mods were unable to enforce things properly, I took it into my own hands to highlight the egregious faults of the noble anti-accusation white knights. Did I make you feel uncomfortable? Good. This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty. If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle. On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything.
It's a good thing this isn't a court case. Or do you mean to tell me that everything you do in life, every single thing, is balanced around this concept of innocent beyond a reasonable doubt?
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On June 25 2020 11:20 WarSame wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 10:55 -Kyo- wrote:On June 25 2020 10:17 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 25 2020 09:18 -Kyo- wrote:
I already posted my thoughts on one of the accusations on reddit, but the only other thing I'll add after reading through this thread is how horribly written some of EsportsJohn's sentences are in terms of fairness, objectivity, and legal standing. Sexual allegations are something to be investigated seriously by authorities; and therefore, have real consequences for both sides. It stands to reason then, if any one of these were brought to court, that evidence and proof of said situations would be paramount. It doesn't really help your case when you come into a thread telling everyone to fuck themselves and that they're pieces of garbage etc. The tone of that post is way out of line and sounds like an emotional student who is part of the 4th wave feminist movement. :/ You missed the point of the post then. If your immediate response to multiple women speaking up about sexual harassment and assault is to immediately think, "Well, she might be lying," you are a part of the problem because you are defending the status quo and contributing to an environment where it's unsafe for women to speak out in fear of retaliation. This is not a court of law, this is a systemic social problem in which women are told that it's their fault they got raped and are questioned on every detail regarding their trauma and discomfort because we're more concerned with ruining the reputation of men than preserving the wellbeing of women who might potentially be scarred for life because of a violent encounter with someone who betrayed their trust. So when I say, "fuck you" to people who hide behind praise of objectivity to mask their unwillingness to believe (specifically) women and continue to foster a hostile environment toward them, I mean it because it's clear that you have no regard for the wellbeing of women. I have so much respect for the patience that DarkPlasmaBall and Wombat have shown in this thread while continuing to engage and educate people—it's really important to have those voices in this discussion—but I think it's also important to call out bullshit for what it is, and since no one else was doing it and because (understandably) the mods were unable to enforce things properly, I took it into my own hands to highlight the egregious faults of the noble anti-accusation white knights. Did I make you feel uncomfortable? Good. hi, thank you for not reading my post. i never said anything about my opinion or thoughts on what the people have said, and if anything, i am more inclined to believe those who come out with many similar stories against one person. nonetheless, i reserve my judgement because i am not the person who decides who is wrong or right. i also mentioned on reddit that it is possible to be empathetic towards people without passing judgement on the veracity of their claims. but, what i do want to point out is that you are not acting with much reason in your posts. i mean, you dont have to look past the part i bolded... i never mentioned my position on anything in the post and you jumped to: you are part of the problem because you make it unsafe for people... ??????? I bolded an important part here - this is a worthless point. You are fully entilted to judge because you are you, a person with a functional brain and the ability to discern between two arguments by weight and probability. You decided for yourself whether it is right or wrong. You don't need to be in a position of power to have a powerful position on something. I have an extremely extremely hard time believing that if someone you cared about told you they were raped you would say "i reserve my judgement because i am not the person who decides who is wrong or right". Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 10:17 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 25 2020 09:18 -Kyo- wrote:
I already posted my thoughts on one of the accusations on reddit, but the only other thing I'll add after reading through this thread is how horribly written some of EsportsJohn's sentences are in terms of fairness, objectivity, and legal standing. Sexual allegations are something to be investigated seriously by authorities; and therefore, have real consequences for both sides. It stands to reason then, if any one of these were brought to court, that evidence and proof of said situations would be paramount. It doesn't really help your case when you come into a thread telling everyone to fuck themselves and that they're pieces of garbage etc. The tone of that post is way out of line and sounds like an emotional student who is part of the 4th wave feminist movement. :/ You missed the point of the post then. If your immediate response to multiple women speaking up about sexual harassment and assault is to immediately think, "Well, she might be lying," you are a part of the problem because you are defending the status quo and contributing to an environment where it's unsafe for women to speak out in fear of retaliation. This is not a court of law, this is a systemic social problem in which women are told that it's their fault they got raped and are questioned on every detail regarding their trauma and discomfort because we're more concerned with ruining the reputation of men than preserving the wellbeing of women who might potentially be scarred for life because of a violent encounter with someone who betrayed their trust. So when I say, "fuck you" to people who hide behind praise of objectivity to mask their unwillingness to believe (specifically) women and continue to foster a hostile environment toward them, I mean it because it's clear that you have no regard for the wellbeing of women. I have so much respect for the patience that DarkPlasmaBall and Wombat have shown in this thread while continuing to engage and educate people—it's really important to have those voices in this discussion—but I think it's also important to call out bullshit for what it is, and since no one else was doing it and because (understandably) the mods were unable to enforce things properly, I took it into my own hands to highlight the egregious faults of the noble anti-accusation white knights. Did I make you feel uncomfortable? Good. This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty. If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle. On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. It's a good thing this isn't a court case. Or do you mean to tell me that everything you do in life, every single thing, is balanced around this concept of innocent beyond a reasonable doubt?
When it comes to serious accusations that have the potential to destroy people's lives, obviously yes.
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On June 25 2020 11:19 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 10:55 -Kyo- wrote:On June 25 2020 10:17 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 25 2020 09:18 -Kyo- wrote:
I already posted my thoughts on one of the accusations on reddit, but the only other thing I'll add after reading through this thread is how horribly written some of EsportsJohn's sentences are in terms of fairness, objectivity, and legal standing. Sexual allegations are something to be investigated seriously by authorities; and therefore, have real consequences for both sides. It stands to reason then, if any one of these were brought to court, that evidence and proof of said situations would be paramount. It doesn't really help your case when you come into a thread telling everyone to fuck themselves and that they're pieces of garbage etc. The tone of that post is way out of line and sounds like an emotional student who is part of the 4th wave feminist movement. :/ You missed the point of the post then. If your immediate response to multiple women speaking up about sexual harassment and assault is to immediately think, "Well, she might be lying," you are a part of the problem because you are defending the status quo and contributing to an environment where it's unsafe for women to speak out in fear of retaliation. This is not a court of law, this is a systemic social problem in which women are told that it's their fault they got raped and are questioned on every detail regarding their trauma and discomfort because we're more concerned with ruining the reputation of men than preserving the wellbeing of women who might potentially be scarred for life because of a violent encounter with someone who betrayed their trust. So when I say, "fuck you" to people who hide behind praise of objectivity to mask their unwillingness to believe (specifically) women and continue to foster a hostile environment toward them, I mean it because it's clear that you have no regard for the wellbeing of women. I have so much respect for the patience that DarkPlasmaBall and Wombat have shown in this thread while continuing to engage and educate people—it's really important to have those voices in this discussion—but I think it's also important to call out bullshit for what it is, and since no one else was doing it and because (understandably) the mods were unable to enforce things properly, I took it into my own hands to highlight the egregious faults of the noble anti-accusation white knights. Did I make you feel uncomfortable? Good. hi, thank you for not reading my post. i never said anything about my opinion or thoughts on what the people have said, and if anything, i am more inclined to believe those who come out with many similar stories against one person. nonetheless, i reserve my judgement because i am not the person who decides who is wrong or right. i also mentioned on reddit that it is possible to be empathetic towards people without passing judgement on the veracity of their claims. but, what i do want to point out is that you are not acting with much reason in your posts. i mean, you dont have to look past the part i bolded... i never mentioned my position on anything in the post and you jumped to: you are part of the problem because you make it unsafe for people... ??????? I'll err on the side of caution here and assume that we're not on the same page language-wise. "You" in the context of my previous post refers to a general "you", not specifically you-Kyo. This is partially qualified by the "if" statement at the beginning of my comment. I'm not directly attacking you. (I am speaking directly to you-Kyo here though): I'm not sure how else to lay bare the foundations of misogyny for you though, since you find all of my previous explanations incoherent and without reason despite ample subject matter to back it up. In the same way that we need to acknowledge "white privilege" as a very real and dangerous threat to minorities, we need to acknowledge that "masculine privilege" is also very real real and dangerous to women, and so my goal is to make you feel uncomfortable about these things because you should.
er, apparently my first response got deleted.... to be short:
okay, so what do they have to do with my post and why did you respond that way? if you want to bring people to fight for what i assume you think is a just-cause then telling them they are garbage and to fuck off is probably not the most logical or successful approach, hence why I stated as much in my first post.
pt2;
no idea what this has to do with anything i posted. your goal is to make me feel uncomfortable.......... ? okkkkkk........?
I bolded an important part here - this is a worthless point. You are fully entilted to judge because you are you, a person with a functional brain and the ability to discern between two arguments by weight and probability. You decided for yourself whether it is right or wrong. You don't need to be in a position of power to have a powerful position on something.
I have an extremely extremely hard time believing that if someone you cared about told you they were raped you would say "i reserve my judgement because i am not the person who decides who is wrong or right".
this makes sense up until the point of wanting some sort of retribution without providing evidence. as i already stated, if you are looking for empathy then that is a human condition that we can all come together on. the moment you take it past the lines of slander, libel, or sexual allegations that is no longer for me, but for courts to decide on. for good reason, free speech does have its limits when a person's entire life can be ruined by a claim.
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On June 25 2020 11:22 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 10:17 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 25 2020 09:18 -Kyo- wrote:
I already posted my thoughts on one of the accusations on reddit, but the only other thing I'll add after reading through this thread is how horribly written some of EsportsJohn's sentences are in terms of fairness, objectivity, and legal standing. Sexual allegations are something to be investigated seriously by authorities; and therefore, have real consequences for both sides. It stands to reason then, if any one of these were brought to court, that evidence and proof of said situations would be paramount. It doesn't really help your case when you come into a thread telling everyone to fuck themselves and that they're pieces of garbage etc. The tone of that post is way out of line and sounds like an emotional student who is part of the 4th wave feminist movement. :/ You missed the point of the post then. If your immediate response to multiple women speaking up about sexual harassment and assault is to immediately think, "Well, she might be lying," you are a part of the problem because you are defending the status quo and contributing to an environment where it's unsafe for women to speak out in fear of retaliation. This is not a court of law, this is a systemic social problem in which women are told that it's their fault they got raped and are questioned on every detail regarding their trauma and discomfort because we're more concerned with ruining the reputation of men than preserving the wellbeing of women who might potentially be scarred for life because of a violent encounter with someone who betrayed their trust. So when I say, "fuck you" to people who hide behind praise of objectivity to mask their unwillingness to believe (specifically) women and continue to foster a hostile environment toward them, I mean it because it's clear that you have no regard for the wellbeing of women. I have so much respect for the patience that DarkPlasmaBall and Wombat have shown in this thread while continuing to engage and educate people—it's really important to have those voices in this discussion—but I think it's also important to call out bullshit for what it is, and since no one else was doing it and because (understandably) the mods were unable to enforce things properly, I took it into my own hands to highlight the egregious faults of the noble anti-accusation white knights. Did I make you feel uncomfortable? Good. This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty. If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle. On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. Most of this would be true if it was one accuser, when the 4th comes out with a very similar story it likely true. I dont believe there is a single instance in the me too movement where more and more accusers kept coming out and it was false.
Ever since the me too era, every single major US political figure has had 4 or more accusations.
Bill Clinton has 4 accusers, Joe Biden has 7, Trump and Kavanaugh have many too.
Most people will agree with me that some of these are not real (although as to which ones specifically, it will depend on the person's political alignment  ).
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On June 25 2020 11:55 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 11:22 JimmiC wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 10:17 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 25 2020 09:18 -Kyo- wrote:
I already posted my thoughts on one of the accusations on reddit, but the only other thing I'll add after reading through this thread is how horribly written some of EsportsJohn's sentences are in terms of fairness, objectivity, and legal standing. Sexual allegations are something to be investigated seriously by authorities; and therefore, have real consequences for both sides. It stands to reason then, if any one of these were brought to court, that evidence and proof of said situations would be paramount. It doesn't really help your case when you come into a thread telling everyone to fuck themselves and that they're pieces of garbage etc. The tone of that post is way out of line and sounds like an emotional student who is part of the 4th wave feminist movement. :/ You missed the point of the post then. If your immediate response to multiple women speaking up about sexual harassment and assault is to immediately think, "Well, she might be lying," you are a part of the problem because you are defending the status quo and contributing to an environment where it's unsafe for women to speak out in fear of retaliation. This is not a court of law, this is a systemic social problem in which women are told that it's their fault they got raped and are questioned on every detail regarding their trauma and discomfort because we're more concerned with ruining the reputation of men than preserving the wellbeing of women who might potentially be scarred for life because of a violent encounter with someone who betrayed their trust. So when I say, "fuck you" to people who hide behind praise of objectivity to mask their unwillingness to believe (specifically) women and continue to foster a hostile environment toward them, I mean it because it's clear that you have no regard for the wellbeing of women. I have so much respect for the patience that DarkPlasmaBall and Wombat have shown in this thread while continuing to engage and educate people—it's really important to have those voices in this discussion—but I think it's also important to call out bullshit for what it is, and since no one else was doing it and because (understandably) the mods were unable to enforce things properly, I took it into my own hands to highlight the egregious faults of the noble anti-accusation white knights. Did I make you feel uncomfortable? Good. This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty. If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle. On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. Most of this would be true if it was one accuser, when the 4th comes out with a very similar story it likely true. I dont believe there is a single instance in the me too movement where more and more accusers kept coming out and it was false. Ever since the me too era, every single major US political figure has had 4 or more accusations. Bill Clinton has 4 accusers, Joe Biden has 7, Trump and Kavanaugh have many too. Most people will agree with me that some of these are not real (although as to which ones specifically, it will depend on the person's political alignment ).
Trump has dozens and he's bragged about sexually harassing and sexually assaulting people many times lol, but that's neither here nor there. I'd want to know if the leaders of my country were doing these things, and I'm glad that victims have been coming forward, regardless of the perpetrator's political affiliation. We deserve to know, and the victims deserve justice. Similarly, I'm glad that so many victims in this community have been willing to step forward. I can't imagine their strength.
Edit: John, thanks for the nod ^^
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On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything.
*sigh*
This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures.
This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now.
Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated.
I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women.
SMH
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EPT
