Harassment/Abuse in StarCraft 2 - Page 24

On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call for irrefutable forensic proof when someone told them their bike was stolen, that they were punched in the face, or in general subjected to any kind of unacceptable behavior. So why is it that people do that when it comes to accusations of a sexual nature? And why does it overwhelmingly happen when the accusations are made by women? Why has nobody here said that they wanted to wait for ogs.Gon to tell his side of the story?

Sure, some few accusations of sexual misconduct are made up or grossly exaggerated. But should victims really not be allowed to speak their mind without proof that would hold up in a court of law just because maybe 1 in 50 of them might be liars? And even if you think 1 innocent man not being punished is more important than 49 victims seeing some kind of justice, does this 1 innocent not often end up convincing people that they are indeed innocent? That seems to be what happened in all the specific cases that have been mentioned.

In any case, it's not just about the victims getting justice, it's about the would-be victims, people who could have been protected if we actually bothered to do anything to that effect but instead are going to be harassed or abused by people who could have been stopped. It's about would-be abusers who see that abusers got away with their actions and feel safe to follow their example. At the very least, it's about listening to people who feel hurt or victimized, empathizing with them, and letting them know that they are entitled to their feelings.

On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call for irrefutable forensic proof when someone told them their bike was stolen, that they were punched in the face, or in general subjected to any kind of unacceptable behavior. So why is it that people do that when it comes to accusations of a sexual nature? And why does it overwhelmingly happen when the accusations are made by women? Why has nobody here said that they wanted to wait for ogs.Gon to tell his side of the story?

Sure, some few accusations of sexual misconduct are made up or grossly exaggerated. But should victims really not be allowed to speak their mind without proof that would hold up in a court of law just because maybe 1 in 50 of them might be liars? And even if you think 1 innocent man not being punished is more important than 49 victims seeing some kind of justice, does this 1 innocent not often end up convincing people that they are indeed innocent? That seems to be what happened in all the specific cases that have been mentioned.

In any case, it's not just about the victims getting justice, it's about the would-be victims, people who could have been protected if we actually bothered to do anything to that effect but instead are going to be harassed or abused by people who could have been stopped. It's about would-be abusers who see that abusers got away with their actions and feel safe to follow their example. At the very least, it's about listening to people who feel hurt or victimized, empathizing with them, and letting them know that they are entitled to their feelings.

...I've done stuff like that, a couple times. Fuck, the majority of heterosexual men have done that. I don't think I did anything wrong. Am I problematic? Am I a rapist?...

the fact that you can get called out on that five years after it happened and potentially lose your career really fucking scares me.

On June 25 2020 05:30 art_of_turtle wrote:
I guess it's a waiting game now. I would really like to hear a statement from rapid before I start to ignore him out of the community.

On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call for irrefutable forensic proof when someone told them their bike was stolen, that they were punched in the face, or in general subjected to any kind of unacceptable behavior. So why is it that people do that when it comes to accusations of a sexual nature? And why does it overwhelmingly happen when the accusations are made by women? Why has nobody here said that they wanted to wait for ogs.Gon to tell his side of the story?

Sure, some few accusations of sexual misconduct are made up or grossly exaggerated. But should victims really not be allowed to speak their mind without proof that would hold up in a court of law just because maybe 1 in 50 of them might be liars? And even if you think 1 innocent man not being punished is more important than 49 victims seeing some kind of justice, does this 1 innocent not often end up convincing people that they are indeed innocent? That seems to be what happened in all the specific cases that have been mentioned.

In any case, it's not just about the victims getting justice, it's about the would-be victims, people who could have been protected if we actually bothered to do anything to that effect but instead are going to be harassed or abused by people who could have been stopped. It's about would-be abusers who see that abusers got away with their actions and feel safe to follow their example. At the very least, it's about listening to people who feel hurt or victimized, empathizing with them, and letting them know that they are entitled to their feelings.

On June 25 2020 06:57 Qikz wrote:
I don't think this is really important enough to post here, but in the last few years I saw Rapid as a close friend and he's been involved in casting my tournaments, so I wanted to say something publically.

https://twitter.com/stpltv/status/1275909601020518402

On June 25 2020 06:39 GreenHorizons wrote:


Frankly a lot of the posts like you describe all I see this (from the dota thread) in more subtle terms:

On June 25 2020 07:23 Zzzapper wrote:

I typed out a longer response that I wasn't quite happy with so I'll keep it short instead. I don't think it does much good to assume that people who call for proof or side with the accused engage in similar behavior themselves (even if it's probably true in some cases). That just makes people defensive, makes it harder to get them to actually change or at least reconsider their opinions.

I think it has more to do with some sort of gender solidarity, overidentification with people of their own gender and/or sexuality and I think that understanding this goes a long way towards addressing these people in a productive way.

On June 25 2020 07:29 GreenHorizons wrote:

It in itself demonstrates that they, at minimum, enable the perpetuation of the reprehensible behavior folks are speaking up about.

Beyond that, I feel similarly to esportsjohn so "frankly" is a bit misleading there.

On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially.

On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard anyone call for irrefutable forensic proof when someone told them their bike was stolen, that they were punched in the face, or in general subjected to any kind of unacceptable behavior. So why is it that people do that when it comes to accusations of a sexual nature?

On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:And why does it overwhelmingly happen when the accusations are made by women? Why has nobody here said that they wanted to wait for ogs.Gon to tell his side of the story?

On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
Sure, some few accusations of sexual misconduct are made up or grossly exaggerated. But should victims really not be allowed to speak their mind without proof that would hold up in a court of law just because maybe 1 in 50 of them might be liars?

On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
And even if you think 1 innocent man not being punished is more important than 49 victims seeing some kind of justice, does this 1 innocent not often end up convincing people that they are indeed innocent? That seems to be what happened in all the specific cases that have been mentioned.

On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
In any case, it's not just about the victims getting justice, it's about the would-be victims, people who could have been protected if we actually bothered to do anything to that effect but instead are going to be harassed or abused by people who could have been stopped. It's about would-be abusers who see that abusers got away with their actions and feel safe to follow their example. At the very least, it's about listening to people who feel hurt or victimized, empathizing with them, and letting them know that they are entitled to their feelings.

On June 25 2020 07:38 SootShade wrote:
Oh fucking hell. I'll just dive in anyway. It's not like I'm going to lose anything but time.


That women are also people with agency, and thus capable of lying? Frankly, I find this kind of insinuations absolutely disgusting and telling of a willful refusal to recognize nuance - since we are already starting with poisoning the well.

Because sexual misconduct is one of the most serious things that an individual can be accused of, and judged doubly as harshly. It's because people know EXACTLY how bad it is, that they want to be so certain before believing such a thing of another person.

You can take my earlier statement regarding a necessity for a standard of proof to hold true in regards to any accusation. But since we are speculating, you may also note a corresponding disparity in the attention received by cases based on this factor.


Are you just pulling these numbers completely out of your ass? Of course you are. And a healthy amount of skepticism being applied does not stop a person from speaking out. What it should stop is people that have no way of knowing about a matter from making up their minds.


We know that they are innocent BECAUSE they were able to prove it. But more importantly, the burden of proof is on the accuser, in part exactly because how much more difficult it is to prove that something DIDN'T happen.


And your moral grandstanding on the internet is going to help a lot isn't it? No, but I'm sure it'll make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, as long as you don't stop to measure yourself for even a moment. There is no contradiction in hearing out a case and not believing it outright. Quite the opposite, delaying your judgement until evidence is presented is frankly necessary for you to be able to give true consideration to the matter and thus be able to express genuine feelings about it, rather than empty moralizing.

Harsh as it may sound, a person's feelings do not entitle them to have others believe them. I have only so much energy I can spare, for giving my genuine consideration to other people, and I'd rather spend it on something that I can genuinely believe in, rather than for my own self-gratification. I can only repeat what I said earlier - I hope that every accusation is handled based on its merits and nothing more. Because I will not take the slightest risk of victimizing someone unfairly, no matter how good it might feel.

On June 25 2020 07:35 Zzzapper wrote:

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I disagree that they are enabling the behavior, I'm just concerned with how to best make people stop doing that.

On June 25 2020 07:39 Models wrote:
Sounds like someoneeeeeeee has a guilty past

On June 25 2020 07:38 SootShade wrote:
Oh fucking hell. I'll just dive in anyway. It's not like I'm going to lose anything but time.


That women are also people with agency, and thus capable of lying? Frankly, I find this kind of insinuations absolutely disgusting and telling of a willful refusal to recognize nuance - since we are already starting with poisoning the well.

Because sexual misconduct is one of the most serious things that an individual can be accused of, and judged doubly as harshly. It's because people know EXACTLY how bad it is, that they want to be so certain before believing such a thing of another person.

You can take my earlier statement regarding a necessity for a standard of proof to hold true in regards to any accusation. But since we are speculating, you may also note a corresponding disparity in the attention received by cases based on this factor.


Are you just pulling these numbers completely out of your ass? Of course you are. And a healthy amount of skepticism being applied does not stop a person from speaking out. What it should stop is people that have no way of knowing about a matter from making up their minds.


We know that they are innocent BECAUSE they were able to prove it. But more importantly, the burden of proof is on the accuser, in part exactly because how much more difficult it is to prove that something DIDN'T happen.


And your moral grandstanding on the internet is going to help a lot isn't it? No, but I'm sure it'll make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, as long as you don't stop to measure yourself for even a moment. There is no contradiction in hearing out a case and not believing it outright. Quite the opposite, delaying your judgement until evidence is presented is frankly necessary for you to be able to give true consideration to the matter and thus be able to express genuine feelings about it, rather than empty moralizing.

Harsh as it may sound, a person's feelings do not entitle them to have others believe them. I have only so much energy I can spare, for giving my genuine consideration to other people, and I'd rather spend it on something that I can genuinely believe in, rather than for my own self-gratification. I can only repeat what I said earlier - I hope that every accusation is handled based on its merits and nothing more. Because I will not take the slightest risk of victimizing someone unfairly, no matter how good it might feel.