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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 25 2020 06:57 Qikz wrote:
I don't think this is really important enough to post here, but in the last few years I saw Rapid as a close friend and he's been involved in casting my tournaments, so I wanted to say something publically.
WHo was the person refusing to believe it damages lives and careers again?
On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call for irrefutable forensic proof when someone told them their bike was stolen, that they were punched in the face, or in general subjected to any kind of unacceptable behavior. So why is it that people do that when it comes to accusations of a sexual nature? And why does it overwhelmingly happen when the accusations are made by women? Why has nobody here said that they wanted to wait for ogs.Gon to tell his side of the story?
Sure, some few accusations of sexual misconduct are made up or grossly exaggerated. But should victims really not be allowed to speak their mind without proof that would hold up in a court of law just because maybe 1 in 50 of them might be liars? And even if you think 1 innocent man not being punished is more important than 49 victims seeing some kind of justice, does this 1 innocent not often end up convincing people that they are indeed innocent? That seems to be what happened in all the specific cases that have been mentioned.
In any case, it's not just about the victims getting justice, it's about the would-be victims, people who could have been protected if we actually bothered to do anything to that effect but instead are going to be harassed or abused by people who could have been stopped. It's about would-be abusers who see that abusers got away with their actions and feel safe to follow their example. At the very least, it's about listening to people who feel hurt or victimized, empathizing with them, and letting them know that they are entitled to their feelings.
Well, some mentioned the girls are talking about DMs. My first thought if I would get an improper DM would be a screenshot, report and ignore. But that's me.
Now to the point. Sexual crimes are one of the harshest punished by society - both by the judge and by the people around you. Especially nowadays when people can find such claims via the Internets from years ago. That's why many are asking for at least some proof. This is a very serious matter and asking for a proof is taking it seriously. I believe nobody said they're liars, but some are taking the waiting game. If you want make things better - ask why there are no official channels which would have sorted this shit out and what should be improved to have them and have them working.
I would love to believe that innocent people will leave the shit storm without any stain and like before, but that's not gonna happen and we both know it. That's why this is misused more than any other false claims(IIRC the FBI quotation earlier, 4 times more).
(and BTW people are not calling, at least the majority, for forensic undeniable proofs, but a picture of such DMs as an example)
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Innocent people don’t remain silent for 48 hours. They don’t have 5-6 women accusing them of the same thing.
It’s honestly a really bad look for the SC community that so many are so quick to discredit all of this witness testimony.
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On June 25 2020 07:46 Wombat_NI wrote:
You’ll not take the slightest risk of victimising someone unfairly, which is a noble stance in theory.
How does that interesect with credible accusations of improper behaviour?
On June 25 2020 04:25 SootShade wrote:
I hope that any potentially criminal actions are brought to the attention of the police.
And that any inappropriate actions that do not reach up to that standard are condemned according to their severity.
And I hope that anyone accused of either is going to be given a fair hearing, whether the court be legal or merely that of the public opinion.
Yet I highly doubt that any of those things are going to happen to a particularly exacting standard.
Make no mistake, it's not merely principle. It is the practice of how one is morally obligated to act at minimum.
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I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call for irrefutable forensic proof when someone told them their bike was stolen, that they were punched in the face, or in general subjected to any kind of unacceptable behavior. So why is it that people do that when it comes to accusations of a sexual nature? And why does it overwhelmingly happen when the accusations are made by women? Why has nobody here said that they wanted to wait for ogs.Gon to tell his side of the story?
Sure, some few accusations of sexual misconduct are made up or grossly exaggerated. But should victims really not be allowed to speak their mind without proof that would hold up in a court of law just because maybe 1 in 50 of them might be liars? And even if you think 1 innocent man not being punished is more important than 49 victims seeing some kind of justice, does this 1 innocent not often end up convincing people that they are indeed innocent? That seems to be what happened in all the specific cases that have been mentioned.
In any case, it's not just about the victims getting justice, it's about the would-be victims, people who could have been protected if we actually bothered to do anything to that effect but instead are going to be harassed or abused by people who could have been stopped. It's about would-be abusers who see that abusers got away with their actions and feel safe to follow their example. At the very least, it's about listening to people who feel hurt or victimized, empathizing with them, and letting them know that they are entitled to their feelings.
Well said!
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On June 25 2020 07:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 07:35 Zzzapper wrote:On June 25 2020 07:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 07:23 Zzzapper wrote:On June 25 2020 06:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call for irrefutable forensic proof when someone told them their bike was stolen, that they were punched in the face, or in general subjected to any kind of unacceptable behavior. So why is it that people do that when it comes to accusations of a sexual nature? And why does it overwhelmingly happen when the accusations are made by women? Why has nobody here said that they wanted to wait for ogs.Gon to tell his side of the story?
Sure, some few accusations of sexual misconduct are made up or grossly exaggerated. But should victims really not be allowed to speak their mind without proof that would hold up in a court of law just because maybe 1 in 50 of them might be liars? And even if you think 1 innocent man not being punished is more important than 49 victims seeing some kind of justice, does this 1 innocent not often end up convincing people that they are indeed innocent? That seems to be what happened in all the specific cases that have been mentioned.
In any case, it's not just about the victims getting justice, it's about the would-be victims, people who could have been protected if we actually bothered to do anything to that effect but instead are going to be harassed or abused by people who could have been stopped. It's about would-be abusers who see that abusers got away with their actions and feel safe to follow their example. At the very least, it's about listening to people who feel hurt or victimized, empathizing with them, and letting them know that they are entitled to their feelings. Frankly a lot of the posts like you describe all I see this (from the dota thread) in more subtle terms: ...I've done stuff like that, a couple times. Fuck, the majority of heterosexual men have done that. I don't think I did anything wrong. Am I problematic? Am I a rapist?...
the fact that you can get called out on that five years after it happened and potentially lose your career really fucking scares me. I typed out a longer response that I wasn't quite happy with so I'll keep it short instead. I don't think it does much good to assume that people who call for proof or side with the accused engage in similar behavior themselves (even if it's probably true in some cases). That just makes people defensive, makes it harder to get them to actually change or at least reconsider their opinions. I think it has more to do with some sort of gender solidarity, overidentification with people of their own gender and/or sexuality and I think that understanding this goes a long way towards addressing these people in a productive way. It in itself demonstrates that they, at minimum, enable the perpetuation of the reprehensible behavior folks are speaking up about. Beyond that, I feel similarly to esportsjohn so "frankly" is a bit misleading there. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I disagree that they are enabling the behavior, I'm just concerned with how to best make people stop doing that. Can't expect you to know beforehand I'm the wrong person to get into respectability politics with but I won't clog up the thread with my opinions on that beyond again pointing out the remarkable frequency of the overlap among folks between skepticism of the allegations, pejorative references to BLM, and calls for civility from marginalized groups speaking up on social media with various amounts of zeal for each.
Oh, I'm with you. They are eating from the trash can all the time. It's a desire, often even unconscious, to uphold the status quo. Enforcing its forms on everyone who tries to topple it is one effective way of doing so. You get to claim that even if the structure is arbitrary, the forms are, or should be, universal.
But yeah, this is not the best place for that discussion and I honestly don't have anything more of value to add the the actual topic
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 25 2020 07:50 overt wrote:
Innocent people don’t remain silent for 48 hours. They don’t have 5-6 women accusing them of the same thing.
It’s honestly a really bad look for the SC community that so many are so quick to discredit all of this witness testimony.
Nobody is disregarding their words, but some are asking for patience. Also somebody mentioned that HenryG(who was innocent) replied after 2 days of silence, so, uh, you know 
(although I admit it doesn't look good for Rapid)
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On June 25 2020 07:35 Zzzapper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 07:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 07:23 Zzzapper wrote:On June 25 2020 06:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call for irrefutable forensic proof when someone told them their bike was stolen, that they were punched in the face, or in general subjected to any kind of unacceptable behavior. So why is it that people do that when it comes to accusations of a sexual nature? And why does it overwhelmingly happen when the accusations are made by women? Why has nobody here said that they wanted to wait for ogs.Gon to tell his side of the story?
Sure, some few accusations of sexual misconduct are made up or grossly exaggerated. But should victims really not be allowed to speak their mind without proof that would hold up in a court of law just because maybe 1 in 50 of them might be liars? And even if you think 1 innocent man not being punished is more important than 49 victims seeing some kind of justice, does this 1 innocent not often end up convincing people that they are indeed innocent? That seems to be what happened in all the specific cases that have been mentioned.
In any case, it's not just about the victims getting justice, it's about the would-be victims, people who could have been protected if we actually bothered to do anything to that effect but instead are going to be harassed or abused by people who could have been stopped. It's about would-be abusers who see that abusers got away with their actions and feel safe to follow their example. At the very least, it's about listening to people who feel hurt or victimized, empathizing with them, and letting them know that they are entitled to their feelings. Frankly a lot of the posts like you describe all I see this (from the dota thread) in more subtle terms: ...I've done stuff like that, a couple times. Fuck, the majority of heterosexual men have done that. I don't think I did anything wrong. Am I problematic? Am I a rapist?...
the fact that you can get called out on that five years after it happened and potentially lose your career really fucking scares me. I typed out a longer response that I wasn't quite happy with so I'll keep it short instead. I don't think it does much good to assume that people who call for proof or side with the accused engage in similar behavior themselves (even if it's probably true in some cases). That just makes people defensive, makes it harder to get them to actually change or at least reconsider their opinions. I think it has more to do with some sort of gender solidarity, overidentification with people of their own gender and/or sexuality and I think that understanding this goes a long way towards addressing these people in a productive way. It in itself demonstrates that they, at minimum, enable the perpetuation of the reprehensible behavior folks are speaking up about. Beyond that, I feel similarly to esportsjohn so "frankly" is a bit misleading there. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I disagree that they are enabling the behavior, I'm just concerned with how to best make people stop doing that.
I never thought I was in anyway a part of the problem until someone let me know I was.
Not everyone is as stupid as me, but many are.
Teaching bad people to say the right thing doesn't change things.
Teaching people to have empathy for the abused. Bingo.
That's that heart and minds campaign.
My opinion anyway.
I also think it is very telling that most of the empathetic responses are from the perspective of the accused.
I think there is a fundamental awakening in progress - It isn't that the rules have changed as many have claimed.
It is that the rules we have had for decades are finally on the verge of enforcement.
Even George Wallace changed.
And a man he tormented... forgave him
http://www.cnn.com/US/9610/11/wallace.forgiven/index.html
(doesn't exonerate him but progress is progress)
If 'we' men don't admit our wrongs, we can't be expected to condemn the bad
or support the abused. Or at least that is how I imagine we progress forward.
Like, this is a mirror, and if you see yourself in the actions of an accused person, or you see yourself in the actions written about by a victim - you need to stop and pause right there and embark on a personal journey. Thousands of these personal journeys can create a herd immunity against future bullshit.
Fingers crossed.
(you edited your post and now mine is quoting something that isn't in the thread. Not sure what to do so I'll leave it,
edit2, you didn't edit your post, you just rabbit post, I was responding to what you said. I do think stage 1 of this convo is men becoming self-aware of their own behaviors past and present and part of the problem, once that happens we are walking downhill, I think)
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I don't disagree in people coming forward with their experiences, but I do have issue with immediate chastising without the opportunity to hear from the accused in a timely manner. I also take issue with people just straight pushing these narratives that the "Timing of accusations is a conspiracy". The sharing of these events should be respected without hasty judgement. It also doesn't mean that we should give them extended time to make a statement. If rapid hasn't responded before friday, I feel he waived his grace period goodbye.
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On June 25 2020 08:05 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 07:35 Zzzapper wrote:On June 25 2020 07:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 07:23 Zzzapper wrote:On June 25 2020 06:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call for irrefutable forensic proof when someone told them their bike was stolen, that they were punched in the face, or in general subjected to any kind of unacceptable behavior. So why is it that people do that when it comes to accusations of a sexual nature? And why does it overwhelmingly happen when the accusations are made by women? Why has nobody here said that they wanted to wait for ogs.Gon to tell his side of the story?
Sure, some few accusations of sexual misconduct are made up or grossly exaggerated. But should victims really not be allowed to speak their mind without proof that would hold up in a court of law just because maybe 1 in 50 of them might be liars? And even if you think 1 innocent man not being punished is more important than 49 victims seeing some kind of justice, does this 1 innocent not often end up convincing people that they are indeed innocent? That seems to be what happened in all the specific cases that have been mentioned.
In any case, it's not just about the victims getting justice, it's about the would-be victims, people who could have been protected if we actually bothered to do anything to that effect but instead are going to be harassed or abused by people who could have been stopped. It's about would-be abusers who see that abusers got away with their actions and feel safe to follow their example. At the very least, it's about listening to people who feel hurt or victimized, empathizing with them, and letting them know that they are entitled to their feelings. Frankly a lot of the posts like you describe all I see this (from the dota thread) in more subtle terms: ...I've done stuff like that, a couple times. Fuck, the majority of heterosexual men have done that. I don't think I did anything wrong. Am I problematic? Am I a rapist?...
the fact that you can get called out on that five years after it happened and potentially lose your career really fucking scares me. I typed out a longer response that I wasn't quite happy with so I'll keep it short instead. I don't think it does much good to assume that people who call for proof or side with the accused engage in similar behavior themselves (even if it's probably true in some cases). That just makes people defensive, makes it harder to get them to actually change or at least reconsider their opinions. I think it has more to do with some sort of gender solidarity, overidentification with people of their own gender and/or sexuality and I think that understanding this goes a long way towards addressing these people in a productive way. It in itself demonstrates that they, at minimum, enable the perpetuation of the reprehensible behavior folks are speaking up about. Beyond that, I feel similarly to esportsjohn so "frankly" is a bit misleading there. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I disagree that they are enabling the behavior, I'm just concerned with how to best make people stop doing that. I never thought I was in anyway a part of the problem until someone let me know I was. Not everyone is as stupid as me, but many are. Teaching bad people to say the right thing doesn't change things. Teaching people to have empathy for the abused. Bingo. That's that heart and minds campaign. My opinion anyway. I also think it is very telling that most of the empathetic responses are from the perspective of the accused. I think there is a fundamental awakening in progress - It isn't that the rules have changed as many have claimed. It is that the rules we have had for decades are finally on the verge of enforcement. Even George Wallace changed. And a man he tormented... forgave him http://www.cnn.com/US/9610/11/wallace.forgiven/index.html(doesn't exonerate him but progress is progress) If 'we' men don't admit our wrongs, we can't be expected to condemn the bad or support the abused. Or at least that is how I imagine we progress forward. Like, this is a mirror, and if you see yourself in the actions of an accused person, or you see yourself in the actions written about by a victim - you need to stop and pause right there and embark on a personal journey. Thousands of these personal journeys can create a herd immunity against future bullshit. Fingers crossed. (you edited your post and now mine is quoting something that isn't in the thread. Not sure what to do so I'll leave it)
Did you mean to quote someone else? I didn't edit that post, it's there exactly as quoted. Or maybe I still wasn't clear. I'm not trying to get people to say the right thing. I'm trying to work towards an understanding of why some people empathize with the accused over the accusers. If you want to "[teach] people to have empathy for the abused", I think you need some understanding of why they don't have it, and it needs to go beyond "they are abusers themselves".
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On June 25 2020 07:47 deacon.frost wrote:
WHo was the person refusing to believe it damages lives and careers again?
Me. But that isn't what I said. I said it hasn't YET.
Now a punitive action has been taken. Now we are at the exact point in the conversation, which we weren't at before....
For You To Decide.
Is this wrong? Is it right? Is it too harsh that he can't do something that he was no longer doing anyway?
Or is it as just as justice?
Now it is entirely the time for you to weigh and make a decision and if you wish -state it publicly or not.
It might not be a popular thing to do, but now is a perfectly reasonable time for you to create any counter narrative or
anti-testimony or anything that you like. I do highly discourage victim shaming of any kind. But, I cannot control you.
Now, for the first time you can argue about something other then victim speech and it isn't theoretical.
Is this wrong?
Good Luck.
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On June 25 2020 08:18 Zzzapper wrote:
I'm trying to work towards an understanding of why some people empathize with the accused over the accusers. If you want to "[teach] people to have empathy for the abused", I think you need some understanding of why they don't have it, and it needs to go beyond "they are abusers themselves".
Not a lot further, evidently:
On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially.
Can I suggest beginning with a good faith interpretation, if you'd like to pursue a genuine discussion?
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On June 25 2020 08:33 SootShade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 08:18 Zzzapper wrote:
I'm trying to work towards an understanding of why some people empathize with the accused over the accusers. If you want to "[teach] people to have empathy for the abused", I think you need some understanding of why they don't have it, and it needs to go beyond "they are abusers themselves". Not a lot further, evidently: Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially. Can I suggest beginning with a good faith interpretation, if you'd like to pursue a genuine discussion?
Like ... 30% of every post you have made in 2 years have been in this thread.
Nice of you to moderate the intentions of others and question the merit of the communication medium.
Since you have no words about any of the accused or victims ... it is a fair thing to ask.
What has drawn you to this thread?
You claim the conversation can't be worthwhile, and then partake to the detriment of it.
You are a sleeper member of the community, until now which is fine and no post count can create a good post but it seems that someone who has had zero meaningful public conversations with anyone in this community should be a little more reticent to question others intentions
But hey, who am I other than someone acting in good faith ... you know that thing you aren't doing.
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My comments have been entirely in reference to the topic of the thread as well as usually direct quotations, so you should have no trouble figuring out exactly what I'm responding to. Furthermore, I think my comments stand perfectly well for themselves in terms of argumentation and are something you should be able to engage with without bringing up things that have zero relevance to the conversation at hand.
I understand you may find my initial comment about the futility of this endeavor to be abrasive, yet the way you are choosing to engage here seems to demonstrate the point exactly. I'm still entirely willing to engage with any actual responses you have to my arguments with all the understanding that they merit. Which is exactly what I've been doing until now - rather than assuming intentions based on the stances that other people take on this issue, I have answered directly the sentiments they present.
Edit: And let me add, it's a hilarious suggestion that any of what I have said even compares to the post I just quoted in terms of bad faith interpretation, not to mention the way that the supportive answer to that comment denegerated.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On June 25 2020 07:47 deacon.frost wrote:WHo was the person refusing to believe it damages lives and careers again? Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call for irrefutable forensic proof when someone told them their bike was stolen, that they were punched in the face, or in general subjected to any kind of unacceptable behavior. So why is it that people do that when it comes to accusations of a sexual nature? And why does it overwhelmingly happen when the accusations are made by women? Why has nobody here said that they wanted to wait for ogs.Gon to tell his side of the story?
Sure, some few accusations of sexual misconduct are made up or grossly exaggerated. But should victims really not be allowed to speak their mind without proof that would hold up in a court of law just because maybe 1 in 50 of them might be liars? And even if you think 1 innocent man not being punished is more important than 49 victims seeing some kind of justice, does this 1 innocent not often end up convincing people that they are indeed innocent? That seems to be what happened in all the specific cases that have been mentioned.
In any case, it's not just about the victims getting justice, it's about the would-be victims, people who could have been protected if we actually bothered to do anything to that effect but instead are going to be harassed or abused by people who could have been stopped. It's about would-be abusers who see that abusers got away with their actions and feel safe to follow their example. At the very least, it's about listening to people who feel hurt or victimized, empathizing with them, and letting them know that they are entitled to their feelings. Well, some mentioned the girls are talking about DMs. My first thought if I would get an improper DM would be a screenshot, report and ignore. But that's me. Now to the point. Sexual crimes are one of the harshest punished by society - both by the judge and by the people around you. Especially nowadays when people can find such claims via the Internets from years ago. That's why many are asking for at least some proof. This is a very serious matter and asking for a proof is taking it seriously. I believe nobody said they're liars, but some are taking the waiting game. If you want make things better - ask why there are no official channels which would have sorted this shit out and what should be improved to have them and have them working. I would love to believe that innocent people will leave the shit storm without any stain and like before, but that's not gonna happen and we both know it. That's why this is misused more than any other false claims(IIRC the FBI quotation earlier, 4 times more). (and BTW people are not calling, at least the majority, for forensic undeniable proofs, but a picture of such DMs as an example)
You should probably be aware that a false rape accusation in a legal context does not always mean the rape did not happen. Per this sociologist who has studied false rape accusations extensively, the commonly cited FBI statistic for false rape accusations is extremely misleading.
Edit: additionally, it's important to note that official channels are very rarely public, but disturbingly often ineffective. A common theme in many of the accusations that have come up in the past few days include tournament organizers, coaches and publishers ignoring or dismissing reports of harassment and abuse.
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On June 25 2020 06:32 Zzzapper wrote:
I see a lot of people in this thread calling for more solid proof from accusers. That's how it tends to go with cases like these and I honestly find it pretty telling, correlated with certain attitudes towards women especially. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call for irrefutable forensic proof when someone told them their bike was stolen, that they were punched in the face, or in general subjected to any kind of unacceptable behavior. So why is it that people do that when it comes to accusations of a sexual nature? And why does it overwhelmingly happen when the accusations are made by women? Why has nobody here said that they wanted to wait for ogs.Gon to tell his side of the story?
Sure, some few accusations of sexual misconduct are made up or grossly exaggerated. But should victims really not be allowed to speak their mind without proof that would hold up in a court of law just because maybe 1 in 50 of them might be liars? And even if you think 1 innocent man not being punished is more important than 49 victims seeing some kind of justice, does this 1 innocent not often end up convincing people that they are indeed innocent? That seems to be what happened in all the specific cases that have been mentioned.
In any case, it's not just about the victims getting justice, it's about the would-be victims, people who could have been protected if we actually bothered to do anything to that effect but instead are going to be harassed or abused by people who could have been stopped. It's about would-be abusers who see that abusers got away with their actions and feel safe to follow their example. At the very least, it's about listening to people who feel hurt or victimized, empathizing with them, and letting them know that they are entitled to their feelings.
The problem is that there is gap between being fair to both sides. Fairness to everyone is equality. There shouldn't be a gap, being fair is being fair. It's all one thing. There's no divided fairness.
We can and should be fair to the accusers and the accused. That will involve a lot of toil and turmoil. Sometimes, doubt that the right conclusion was reached. That shouldn't be avoided. Wanting a ridiculous standard of proof one way or the other is trying to create a shortcut. Not doubting causes loss of the ability to recognize when you're going the wrong way.
People's lives can get ruined. People's lives do get ruined. This kind of thing is too important to not do right. There's nothing easy about it. It shouldn't be easy. We should remember that the rewards of doing it right should be too tempting to resist. We can do it right if we choose to and don't give up.
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On June 25 2020 08:02 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 07:50 overt wrote:
Innocent people don’t remain silent for 48 hours. They don’t have 5-6 women accusing them of the same thing.
It’s honestly a really bad look for the SC community that so many are so quick to discredit all of this witness testimony. Nobody is disregarding their words, but some are asking for patience. Also somebody mentioned that HenryG(who was innocent) replied after 2 days of silence, so, uh, you know (although I admit it doesn't look good for Rapid)
Serious question, when/if RAPiD admits and apologizes for what he did will you apologize for defending him and casting doubt on his accusers?
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On June 25 2020 09:09 Zealously wrote:You should probably be aware that a false rape accusation in a legal context does not always mean the rape did not happen. Per this sociologist who has studied false rape accusations extensively, the commonly cited FBI statistic for false rape accusations is extremely misleading.
"Overall, an estimated 8 to 10 percent of women are thought to report their rapes to the police, which means that — at the very highest — we can infer that 90 percent of rapes go unreported, says Belknap."
What is this based off of again?
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Edit - To SootShade
The way people can tell you aren't acting in good faith...
This is not an argument. This is not a school yard theoretical debate topic.
You are spending your calculated energy to derail and degrade a conversation based upon the fact that it is happening.
The accusations bother you, people reacting to it bothers you everything bothers you and you are glad people are succinctly proving your points?
ONE OF THE FUCKING ACCUSATIONS IS ABOUT A GROWN MAN COMMITTING ATTEMPTED AND PREMEDITATED RAPE ON A COMMUNITY MEMBER, WHO WAS SAVED BY A FUCKING CORSET AND SHE DIDN'T FEEL COMFORTABLE IN OUR COMMUNITY COMING FORWARD FOR 9 YEARS.
This is not a debate, stop trying to win. That is the definition of bad faith.
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I already posted my thoughts on one of the accusations on reddit, but the only other thing I'll add after reading through this thread is how horribly written some of EsportsJohn's sentences are in terms of fairness, objectivity, and legal standing. Sexual allegations are something to be investigated seriously by authorities; and therefore, have real consequences for both sides. It stands to reason then, if any one of these were brought to court, that evidence and proof of said situations would be paramount. It doesn't really help your case when you come into a thread telling everyone to fuck themselves and that they're pieces of garbage etc. The tone of that post is way out of line and sounds like an emotional student who is part of the 4th wave feminist movement. :/
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On June 25 2020 09:15 SootShade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 09:09 Zealously wrote:You should probably be aware that a false rape accusation in a legal context does not always mean the rape did not happen. Per this sociologist who has studied false rape accusations extensively, the commonly cited FBI statistic for false rape accusations is extremely misleading. "Overall, an estimated 8 to 10 percent of women are thought to report their rapes to the police, which means that — at the very highest — we can infer that 90 percent of rapes go unreported, says Belknap." What is this based off of again?
It's a commonly cited problem. The numbers vary, the most common being that approximately 20% of rapes are reported (see below), but it depends on social context (college students less likely than others for example). What is clear is that a majority are unreported.
See for example:
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/sexual-assault-remains-dramatically-underreported (referencing a study by the US Justice Department)
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EPT
