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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH
Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally.
The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'.
The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused.
Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond.
Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation.
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United States4883 Posts
I've pretty much said everything I'm going to say, and any further replies would just be me repeating the same mantra over and over again until hopefully it sticks, BUT I do want to comment on the HenryG situation now that I've read up on it some.
By both accounts, he had non-consensual sex with Kelly. Like, there's not even room for debate here. He admitted that he was a little high but that she had a bad trip, and even if she initiated in any way, shape, or form, she was in no condition to give consent, and he knew it. There's no presumption of innocence needed here: he's guilty of assault.
There is more to it though. My personal opinion is that his response sounds very controlling and indicative of an abusive personality: defaulting to the vague "I wasn't the best bf, but I tried" narrative, intentionally framing events to make her sound crazy, repeatedly pointing to the fact that she never called it a rape so it must have been okay, and distorting time and events with unclear language—all of which point to him being the personality Kelly claims he is. I will 100% always stand by the women who claim they have been violated and against the men who frame the narrative that these women are crazy no-names. This paragraph is clearly a matter of opinion, but I'll be honest when I see people white-knighting someone who posts a few selective screenshots that prove nothing while also be very clearly guilty of assault, I have to really wonder about your sanity.
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I'm glad this awareness is happening. We need a bit of a #MeToo for starcraft honestly. This is a sort of cleaning house. I think a lot of us first started playing starcraft when we were young stupid kids and sometimes growing out of sexism is aa part of growing up. But if we just let those attitudes stay like that then rarely is something done.
I also hope Scarlett makes a statement. On the other hand, it's not like she has to. We all saw the comments that were on any thread about her in 2012-2014. I'm glad that eventually that shit stopped, but it would be good to recognize what she went through for the fucked up harassment that it was. There was both transphobia and misogyny. Many vulgar statements along the lines of her identity is invalid because she's good at a computer game and women aren't, according to the harassers. And that was just the stuff on the forums, god only knows what she endured in private.
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Someone also harassed Scarlett with ingame chat messages at BlizzCon 2014. The chat messages were visible to the whole audience.
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On June 25 2020 12:51 EsportsJohn wrote:
even if she initiated in any way, shape, or form, she was in no condition to give consent
drop off the face of this planet. She came to his house, asked to get high, got high and then initiated. That's nonconsensual? Ok. Then you're either a massive hypocrite or had nonconsensual sex multiple times in your life.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 25 2020 12:51 EsportsJohn wrote:
He admitted that he was a little high but that she had a bad trip, and even if she initiated in any way, shape, or form, she was in no condition to give consent, and he knew it.
If he was high then he couldn't have consented either?
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On June 25 2020 13:21 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 12:51 EsportsJohn wrote:
even if she initiated in any way, shape, or form, she was in no condition to give consent
drop off the face of this planet. She came to his house, asked to get high, got high and then initiated. That's nonconsensual? Ok. Then you're either a massive hypocrite or had nonconsensual sex multiple times in your life.
Yeah I feel like this logic implies women are brainless idiots, which is very not cool. Imagine how many cases of rape/assault against men and in general there would be if all it took was someone willingly getting high/drunk and then willingly initiating.
If he had pressured her into *either* getting high *or* sex in anyway I wouldn’t be defending him. Not the case though
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On June 25 2020 13:21 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
Someone also harassed Scarlett with ingame chat messages at BlizzCon 2014. The chat messages were visible to the whole audience.
Wow I didn’t know that. That’s freaking awful. It’s normally awful and then to have it happen in a high stakes environment while you are performing. She’s a total badass
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On June 25 2020 09:35 LHK wrote:
I used to talk to Rapid for about 1.5 – 2 years. While I don’t think he is a bad person, some of the things he said to me definitely crossed the line. However, speaking on my own personal experience with him, I don’t believe it was ever malicious. I want to be clear my interpretation of the things Reid said to me are not that he sexually harassed me. I firmly believe in keeping private conversations private, however some of the things people allege that he has said, were definitely said to me, and they did make me feel uncomfortable sometimes. A conversation would randomly turn sexual, or him talking about his “size”. However, any time I ever told him that what he said made me uncomfortable, he immediately apologized and stopped. I haven’t talked to Rapid since November of 2019, and I don’t want to make excuses for him, but I think sometimes he doesn’t realize the things he says are way too much. Based solely on my experience with him, I don’t believe he deserves to be crucified, however I have no idea what he said to others and in what context he presented the things he said. I don’t want to defend or condemn Rapid. I just wanted to share my experience with him.
I think this is the best take on it I’ve seen. Completely innapropriate, bound to make people uncomfortable, but not malicious and not crossing into harrassment territory. Not to discredit those who were bothered by it.
EDIT: Meant assault territory. It was sexual harassment
I think people need to realize mental illness, addiction to behavior, obsession and other factors play into why he and actual assaulters, up to rapists do the things they do. Doesn’t make it forgivable, but gives some insight into the minds of these people. It’s like how our society is starting to view murderers slightly more humanely even. These behaviors need to be addressed in maybe more thoughtful ways. I don’t know, just got me thinking
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On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation.
I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term.
Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely.
Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably.
Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course.
Should we do something about it and help them? 100%.
Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No.
Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No.
We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas.
IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way".
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On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way".
This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it.
Disgusting.
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On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm fucking done with it.
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On June 25 2020 14:16 Jealous wrote:
Happy to see you go.
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personally I think the term internet mob is probably the best term to use as well as the most accurate if you must call it something.
honestly the best action is always probably a suspension pending an investigation where you evaluate afterwards depending on if there's anything there. It's weird when their streamers/personalities and not working for someone necessarily but I'm sure you can come up with an equivalent.
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On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting.
That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob?
Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, I I didn't think about how the terminology could be upsetting but now I know. Thanks to you.
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On June 25 2020 15:41 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting. That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob? Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, how else would I have known the terminology is upsetting? Now I know.
Don't care what you claim your intention was. It's unacceptable. The whole post, but especially the "lynching" rhetoric. Same with Pang. Absurd to have this thread and let it continue. Either the community is cleaning this stuff up or it's not.
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On June 25 2020 13:29 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 12:51 EsportsJohn wrote:
He admitted that he was a little high but that she had a bad trip, and even if she initiated in any way, shape, or form, she was in no condition to give consent, and he knew it. If he was high then he couldn't have consented either?
But he's a man so it doesn't count
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On June 25 2020 15:41 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting. That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob? Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, I I didn't think about how the terminology could be upsetting but now I know. Thanks to you.
Don't waste your time humoring someone who has dedicated thousands of posts and hours into mastering the art of turning every subject, no matter how pressing or unrelated, into being about themselves or their agenda.
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On June 25 2020 15:59 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 15:41 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 13:58 vyzion wrote:On June 25 2020 12:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 25 2020 12:08 rwala wrote:On June 25 2020 11:11 Pangpootata wrote:
This has nothing to do with thinking whether the accuser is lying or not. It's about being innocent until proven guilty.
If it's one person's word against another, we can't reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could very well be telling the truth, but we have to presume the accused is innocent until more substantial evidence is provided. A reasonable society has to balance the risk of real crimes going unpunished with the risk of people's lives being destroyed due to false accusations, in the manner of blackstone's principle.
On the contrary, adopting an objective mindset does not create a hostile environment for reporting crimes. It will in fact encourage more victims to report crimes immediately when the evidence is still fresh, instead of waiting for a period of time after which it is hard to prove anything. *sigh* This is quite literally NOT about "being innocent until proven guilty." Nor is it about guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, substantial evidence, or any other legal concept because this is not a court of law and as far as I know no one is being charged with any crimes. Please don't reference Blackstone either. It does not make your point sound more intelligent (to the contrary, I promise that if there are other lawyers on this forum, they also rolled their eyes when they read that). This is about community accountability and protection, which has absolutely nothing to do with criminal law procedures. This is really not that complicated. You would not be asserting the innocence of man accused of harassing multiple women if they were your family members or friends who had come forward. Hell, if a member of your community said their car was stolen and asked you to look out for thieves in the future, you'd believe them, because why would they lie? You would not say "I can't assume that your car was stolen or take any extra precautions because you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable in a court of law." That would be bizarre behavior, but it's exactly what you and others in this thread are doing here. Members of the SC2 community have come forward to tell their stories. Please believe them. They have no reason to lie. There's a lot of social science on this question, and it shows that a relatively small percentage of abuse and harassment cases are reported, and of those an even smaller percentage are false reports. This is also just common sense. Women have very little to gain--and a lot to lose--by coming forward, let alone lodging false accusations. Of course any accusations will need to be proven if and when there is ever a legal proceeding. That's literally a totally different conversation than the one that's happening here and now. Also, all this nonsense about witchhunts, lynching, etc. is exactly that: nonsense. This is simply members of the SC2 community supporting those who have come forward to tell their stories and pushing for some public accountability for bad behavior that--irrespective of whether it is a crime--should not be tolerated. I want to be super clear here. If you are calling out the people who have come forward or those who are defending them, or otherwise defending the accused with red herring appeals to legal concepts you don't understand, you are exhibiting sexist, misogynistic, toxically masculine behavior. And you really need to do some deep thinking and feeling on what your contributions to this conversations are accomplishing beyond showing solidarity with a man who has acted in a deeply inappropriate way with many women. SMH Similarly if your family member whom you knew to be of outstanding character was accused of rape by a partner whom you knew to be untrustworthy, you would side with your family member. People will tend to believe those they know personally and have guaranteed character. But this is besides the point as the frame of reference of this discussion is that of bystanders who know neither party personally. The analogy about a stolen car is non-sequitur as there is no directly accused person in the example. The crux here is the balance between 'possible harm of real crime going unpunished' vs 'possible harm of false accusation ruining someone's lives'. The analogy of witchhunt / lynching is not meant to discourage people from speaking up. In fact, we all encourage people to report crimes. Rather, it is a caution to the internet mob regarding jumping to conclusions too early before listening to all sides of the story, and being overzealous in exacting 'justice', running the risk of ruining the lives of people who may be falsely accused. Nobody in this thread is calling out those coming forward. Some of us are just encouraging the community to reserve judgement first until there are further developments and the other side has a chance to respond. Lastly this has nothing to do with misogyny or masculinity. Women can rape men too (and in fact a man accusing a woman of rape is less likely to be believed than a woman accusing a man). All arguments here apply regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I agree with this. The mob / lynch mob mentality and group think we see often these days is vindictive, overzealous, and unreasonable. I don't think anyone is defending any accuser, I think they are just trying to be objective. Insta-lynching anyone who has been accused is not being objective, even though it may be effective short-term. Are women sexually harassed more than men, especially in esports? Absolutely. Is someone guilty if multiple people have testimonies and stories against that person? Probably. Is it extremely hard for victims to come out with their stories? Of course. Should we do something about it and help them? 100%. Are these reasons enough grounds to insta-lynch someone? No. Is it ever a good idea to throw logic and reasoning out the door? No. We need solutions to help women be safe, have a safe space, and thrive just as well as anyone else can in the community. Let's find a way to properly identify perpetrators and punish them. Let's find a way for women to protect themselves in the future by pushing for security features in the platforms where this happens. We can start by asking the victims themselves for ideas. IMO insta-lynching is part of cancel culture which is cancer. It destroys productive communication and encourages "my way or the high way". This post is absolute trash and you should delete it. Fu*k letting people keep using "lynching/lynch mob" in this context while Black people are literally being found hanging in trees in the US amid boiling tensions. I'm fu**ing done with it. Disgusting. That wasn't my intention - I was using the same terminology others were using. I'll use something else next time. Internet mob? Deleting it because you don't like it is counter productive to any productive conversation. You shouldn't just leave and quit, I I didn't think about how the terminology could be upsetting but now I know. Thanks to you. Don't waste your time humoring someone who has dedicated thousands of posts and hours into mastering the art of turning every subject, no matter how pressing or unrelated, into being about themselves or their agenda.
I appreciate the inadvertent compliment. Good to know my efforts toward my agenda of an equitable and just society/community is recognized and so virulently opposed by people like yourself.
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EPT
