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Dark wins the 2019 WCS Global Finals - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
339 CommentsPost a Reply
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NinjaNight
Profile Joined January 2018
428 Posts
November 03 2019 15:35 GMT
#81
Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
November 03 2019 15:45 GMT
#82
If the debate pivot into Serral vs Dark, does that mean we can finally have a Maru-Serral match?
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
BerserkSword
Profile Joined December 2018
United States2123 Posts
November 03 2019 15:52 GMT
#83
On November 04 2019 00:45 Nakajin wrote:
If the debate pivot into Serral vs Dark, does that mean we can finally have a Maru-Serral match?


Dark swept Maru and basically swept the guy who beat Serral.

Bring on Dark vs Serral-Maru archon
TL+ Member
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6876 Posts
November 03 2019 16:49 GMT
#84
Congratz to Dark! Really played incredible!

Also congratz to TheDougler for beeing the two time Blizzcon SigBet champ
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
bela.mervado
Profile Joined December 2008
Hungary385 Posts
November 03 2019 16:58 GMT
#85
On November 04 2019 01:49 Harris1st wrote:
Congratz to Dark! Really played incredible!

Also congratz to TheDougler for beeing the two time Blizzcon SigBet champ


haha
well played

Grats to Dark!
-KG-
Profile Joined October 2012
Denmark1206 Posts
November 03 2019 17:02 GMT
#86
Gratz to Dark. So I guess one satisfactory thing about ZvZ finals is that you get to see a zerg lose to nydus-SH...

Was surprised to see:
- a ZvZ final without Serral or Rogue in it :o
- that a protoss actually made it to RO4. That blink DT play was a tournament highlight - ty Classic!
~~(,,ºº>
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
November 03 2019 17:29 GMT
#87
On November 04 2019 02:02 -KG- wrote:
Gratz to Dark. So I guess one satisfactory thing about ZvZ finals is that you get to see a zerg lose to nydus-SH...

Was surprised to see:
- a ZvZ final without Serral or Rogue in it :o
- that a protoss actually made it to RO4. That blink DT play was a tournament highlight - ty Classic!

classic played out of his mind. this is essentially a meta where toss is borderline forced to do constant, rotating cheeses in pvz, which makes it incredibly hard to win multiple bo5s consecutively. smart zergs counter it by going for heavy low-tech army midgames so they can survive to lategame, which makes it hard to even cheese effectively. for once in history it was super impressive for the protoss to keep cheesing and winning
TL+ Member
sneakyfox
Profile Joined January 2017
8216 Posts
November 03 2019 18:45 GMT
#88
On November 04 2019 00:35 NinjaNight wrote:
Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year


You need to add Innovation, soO, and Stats to that list. But yeah, Reynor really does seem to have a style that gives Serral problems.
"I saw what sneakyfox wrote on TL.net and it made me furious" - PartinG
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-03 19:06:15
November 03 2019 18:53 GMT
#89
On November 04 2019 03:45 sneakyfox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2019 00:35 NinjaNight wrote:
Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year


You need to add Innovation, soO, and Stats to that list. But yeah, Reynor really does seem to have a style that gives Serral problems.


Dosen't he have a winning reccord against all of them?
Also he currently on a 7-0 streak vs soO

Edit: oh he does have a losing reccord vs INno, but they are 2 and 2 in the last two years.
Still they aren't especially "Kriptonite" as much as they are very good player vs whom he sometime loses.

Reynor is still bellow 50% vs Koreans and honestly he just got through herO and Trap in a broken matchup, it's much more surprising that he's doing thay well vs Serral in particular.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
sneakyfox
Profile Joined January 2017
8216 Posts
November 03 2019 19:11 GMT
#90
On November 04 2019 03:53 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2019 03:45 sneakyfox wrote:
On November 04 2019 00:35 NinjaNight wrote:
Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year


You need to add Innovation, soO, and Stats to that list. But yeah, Reynor really does seem to have a style that gives Serral problems.


Dosen't he have a winning reccord against all of them?
Also he currently on a 7-0 streak vs soO

Edit: oh he does have a losing reccord vs INno, but they are 2 and 2 in the last two years.
Still they aren't especially "Kriptonite" as much as they are very good player vs whom he sometime loses.

Reynor is still bellow 50% vs Koreans and honestly he just got through herO and Trap in a broken matchup, it's much more surprising that he's doing thay well vs Serral in particular.


It was more a comment to the "Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year" line...
"I saw what sneakyfox wrote on TL.net and it made me furious" - PartinG
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55510 Posts
November 03 2019 19:14 GMT
#91
On November 04 2019 03:53 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2019 03:45 sneakyfox wrote:
On November 04 2019 00:35 NinjaNight wrote:
Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year


You need to add Innovation, soO, and Stats to that list. But yeah, Reynor really does seem to have a style that gives Serral problems.


Dosen't he have a winning reccord against all of them?

He has a winning record against Reynor too. But Reynor taking the tough wins in epic matches in WCS Winter, Summer and Blizzcon sticks more with people than Serral destroying him in everything in-between.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Drfilip
Profile Joined March 2013
Sweden590 Posts
November 03 2019 19:18 GMT
#92
On November 04 2019 00:52 BerserkSword wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2019 00:45 Nakajin wrote:
If the debate pivot into Serral vs Dark, does that mean we can finally have a Maru-Serral match?


Dark swept Maru and basically swept the guy who beat Serral.

Bring on Dark vs Serral-Maru archon

Speaking of Dark sweeping Maru, I looked at the map records of the global finals. ZvT had a 85.7% win rate in games (12-2). Juanito was the only terran to take any maps off of zerg. He won 2 games vs soO. One was on Disco Bloodbath and one was on Winter's Gate.
The other match ups were way more even. One game difference in TvP (7-8), 61.5% wins for zerg vs protoss (32-20).
It was not terrans' tournament this year. At least Maru got to be the last terran in yet another tournament or league. How many Ro8 have Maru been the last terran in now? How many times has it been some other terran?
Random Platinum EU
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
November 03 2019 19:28 GMT
#93
On November 04 2019 04:18 Drfilip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2019 00:52 BerserkSword wrote:
On November 04 2019 00:45 Nakajin wrote:
If the debate pivot into Serral vs Dark, does that mean we can finally have a Maru-Serral match?


Dark swept Maru and basically swept the guy who beat Serral.

Bring on Dark vs Serral-Maru archon

Speaking of Dark sweeping Maru, I looked at the map records of the global finals. ZvT had a 85.7% win rate in games (12-2). Juanito was the only terran to take any maps off of zerg. He won 2 games vs soO. One was on Disco Bloodbath and one was on Winter's Gate.
The other match ups were way more even. One game difference in TvP (7-8), 61.5% wins for zerg vs protoss (32-20).
It was not terrans' tournament this year. At least Maru got to be the last terran in yet another tournament or league. How many Ro8 have Maru been the last terran in now? How many times has it been some other terran?


This was the first time this year that Maru was the only T in the round of 8, but he was the best performing T in GSL S1 (first) and GSL S3 (semi). The rest of the time it was TY in ST 2 (second) and IEM Katowice (round of 12), Gumiho in ST 1 (second) and INno at WESG (first) and GSL S2 (round of 8)

TY and INno also both have a HSC final but Maru dosen't go to them.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-03 19:46:32
November 03 2019 19:45 GMT
#94
On November 04 2019 00:06 DBooN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2019 23:59 Xain0n wrote:
On November 03 2019 23:30 DBooN wrote:
On November 03 2019 17:27 Mun_Su wrote:
On November 03 2019 07:28 Xain0n wrote:
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote:
If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.

Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.


Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019.
Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.

I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.



INno is my fav' but i can't see how he looked stronger than Dark overall this year.

He won a series against serral, so he's the goat of 2019.


You might have cared to read my answer before coming out with this low quality bait.

Why would anyone care to read your posts?


So you answer to a comment replying to one of my posts, quoting my posts as well, with a pointless bait clearly referring to that post and then you pretend you didn't read said post of mine?

You are basically admitting to be either very superficial or a massive troll.

Feel free to ignore my posts entirely, if you answer to them without having read them you add nothing to any discussion.

fronkschnonk
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany622 Posts
November 03 2019 20:04 GMT
#95
On November 03 2019 07:46 Xain0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2019 07:38 yubo56 wrote:
On November 03 2019 07:28 Xain0n wrote:
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote:
If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.

Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.


Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019.
Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.

I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.

Your first point: at points maybe the others sho me brighter. Consistently, averaged over the year? I disagree.

But I agree, it's hard to declare him unequivocally best since he didn't hit serral. But serrals fault not his. Weird spot like last year.


As for best player on average, Serral's retained this spot before yesterday; as for shining brighter, many shone more than Dark this year, at different times. Best player right now? It's possible, but debatable.
Most accomplished player of 2019? With Blizzcon, he is.


Here we go again - can't resist to disagree
Best player on average really probably is Dark this year so far. Let's compare his results with Serral's over the year:

Serral in WCS Winter EU: 2nd (after a sloppy round robin group before that) | Dark in GSL S1: semifinal (close defeat vs Classic)
-> imo Dark comes out on top here since a Ro8 of GSL is significantly harder than a WCS Ro8 (as we've seen this blizzcon)
-> Serral 0:1 Dark

Serral in IEM Katowice: Ro8 (close defeat vs soO, who won the tournament but played mediocre in group stages) | Dark in IEM Katowice: Ro4 (losing to weirdly on/off-switching supermode-Stats)
-> Hard to give the edge to anyone of the two. Dark technically made it further but Serral's match vs soO easily could've gone the other way around. I consider this a draw.
-> Serral 0:1 Dark

Serral and Dark in WESG:
-> Serral beats Dark in Ro8, goes on to the finals where he barely gets beaten by Innovation
-> Serral 1:1 Dark

---------> Dark in GSL ST1: elimination in first round vs an on point Gumiho (who fights his way to the finals)

Serral in WCS Spring: Champion | Dark in GSL S2: Champion
-> Both are convincing champions. But GSL is still to be valued above WCS. Dark comes out on top.
-> Serral 1:2 Dark

Serral in WCS Summer: 2nd | Dark in GSL S3: Ro4
-> I stand by my assessment: GSL Ro4 is harder to get to than WCS final.
-> Serral 1:3 Dark

---------> Serral in Assembly Summer 2019: Ro4
Even if the roster of Assembly wasn't highest calibre and Serral's tournament path not the most impressive, he still showed dominance until meeting Stats who managed to beat him in a close match.
Comparing this to Dark's GSL ST1 performance, Serral clearly comes out on top.
-> Serral 2:3 Dark

Serral in GSL vs the World: Champion | Dark in GSL vs the World: elimination in the forst round vs an on point Elarzer (who fights his way to the finals)
-> Serral 3:3 Dark

Serral in WCS Fall: Champion | Dark in GSL ST2: Champion
-> both absolutely demolish their brackets. But GSL ST still features far more really tough players and Dark really took the hardest imaginable road (Maru, Stats, soO, TY)
-> Serral 3:4 Dark

Both at Blizzcon:
-> Serral 3:5 Dark

One could argue if the first-round eliminations of Dark aren't tainting his average. But he lost to finalist both times. Also Serral only had one single elimination tournament with potentially high calibre opponents in the first round. Thus he barely ever was in danger to get defeated early in any tournament.
Another point of critique would be that perhaps results in tournaments in which they both participated should be valued higher than my assessment that GSL is harder than WCS. Thus one could reward those GSL Ro4>WCS 2nd-occurences with only a half point for Dark each. He still would come on top.
Furthermore, I consider that some kind of Code A must be reestablished.
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4400 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-03 20:13:55
November 03 2019 20:11 GMT
#96
On November 04 2019 05:04 fronkschnonk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2019 07:46 Xain0n wrote:
On November 03 2019 07:38 yubo56 wrote:
On November 03 2019 07:28 Xain0n wrote:
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote:
If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.

Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.


Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019.
Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.

I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.

Your first point: at points maybe the others sho me brighter. Consistently, averaged over the year? I disagree.

But I agree, it's hard to declare him unequivocally best since he didn't hit serral. But serrals fault not his. Weird spot like last year.


As for best player on average, Serral's retained this spot before yesterday; as for shining brighter, many shone more than Dark this year, at different times. Best player right now? It's possible, but debatable.
Most accomplished player of 2019? With Blizzcon, he is.


Here we go again - can't resist to disagree
Best player on average really probably is Dark this year so far. Let's compare his results with Serral's over the year:

Serral in WCS Winter EU: 2nd (after a sloppy round robin group before that) | Dark in GSL S1: semifinal (close defeat vs Classic)
-> imo Dark comes out on top here since a Ro8 of GSL is significantly harder than a WCS Ro8 (as we've seen this blizzcon)
-> Serral 0:1 Dark

Serral in IEM Katowice: Ro8 (close defeat vs soO, who won the tournament but played mediocre in group stages) | Dark in IEM Katowice: Ro4 (losing to weirdly on/off-switching supermode-Stats)
-> Hard to give the edge to anyone of the two. Dark technically made it further but Serral's match vs soO easily could've gone the other way around. I consider this a draw.
-> Serral 0:1 Dark

Serral and Dark in WESG:
-> Serral beats Dark in Ro8, goes on to the finals where he barely gets beaten by Innovation
-> Serral 1:1 Dark

---------> Dark in GSL ST1: elimination in first round vs an on point Gumiho (who fights his way to the finals)

Serral in WCS Spring: Champion | Dark in GSL S2: Champion
-> Both are convincing champions. But GSL is still to be valued above WCS. Dark comes out on top.
-> Serral 1:2 Dark

Serral in WCS Summer: 2nd | Dark in GSL S3: Ro4
-> I stand by my assessment: GSL Ro4 is harder to get to than WCS final.
-> Serral 1:3 Dark

---------> Serral in Assembly Summer 2019: Ro4
Even if the roster of Assembly wasn't highest calibre and Serral's tournament path not the most impressive, he still showed dominance until meeting Stats who managed to beat him in a close match.
Comparing this to Dark's GSL ST1 performance, Serral clearly comes out on top.
-> Serral 2:3 Dark

Serral in GSL vs the World: Champion | Dark in GSL vs the World: elimination in the forst round vs an on point Elarzer (who fights his way to the finals)
-> Serral 3:3 Dark

Serral in WCS Fall: Champion | Dark in GSL ST2: Champion
-> both absolutely demolish their brackets. But GSL ST still features far more really tough players and Dark really took the hardest imaginable road (Maru, Stats, soO, TY)
-> Serral 3:4 Dark

Both at Blizzcon:
-> Serral 3:5 Dark

One could argue if the first-round eliminations of Dark aren't tainting his average. But he lost to finalist both times. Also Serral only had one single elimination tournament with potentially high calibre opponents in the first round. Thus he barely ever was in danger to get defeated early in any tournament.
Another point of critique would be that perhaps results in tournaments in which they both participated should be valued higher than my assessment that GSL is harder than WCS. Thus one could reward those GSL Ro4>WCS 2nd-occurences with only a half point for Dark each. He still would come on top.


Dark winning the first Korea WESG qualifier without dropping a map should be on here as well. There's a serious argument to be made that the Korea WESG qualifier is one of the hardest events of the year. Imo it only loses to IEM and the 3 Code S seasons. I know it's online but considering that they are playing for a spot at the second highest prize tournament of the year I don't think that matters.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12785 Posts
November 03 2019 20:19 GMT
#97
Guys, Maru lost to the eventual winner of the tournament, that counts right? That's a super useful metric you know

WriterMaru
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
November 03 2019 20:31 GMT
#98
On November 04 2019 05:19 Poopi wrote:
Guys, Maru lost to the eventual winner of the tournament, that counts right? That's a super useful metric you know



If Maru had not lost to Dark he would for sure had beaten Reynor, and considering that herO almost beat Reynor but got beaten by Classic we have to assume he would have crush the Italien. So really, if we are honest with ourselves we have to accept that Serral is at best top 5.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
November 03 2019 20:36 GMT
#99
On the news at 10: single-elimination still a stupid format for the pinnacle of the season. More information at fuck o'clock.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Anc13nt
Profile Blog Joined October 2017
1557 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-03 20:41:14
November 03 2019 20:37 GMT
#100
On November 04 2019 00:35 NinjaNight wrote:
Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year


Yeah Reynor has shown himself to be a really good player in this Blizzcon and I would say he is in the lower part of the top 10. Beating herO and Trap 3-2 shows me that he is a legitimately on par with high level Korean players. That said, I think many people thought that because Reynor's ZvZ fought on par with Serral's, he was almost as good at the matchup. In my view, Serral generally does unusually badly against Reynor. Reynor has a very good ZvZ but he has dropped series to Snute and Lambo this year and had a close series against Nerchio. He also lost very badly to Dark. In contrast, Serral generally beats Dark pretty badly and would most likely also win against Snute, Lambo and Nerchio in lopsided fashion.

When I saw the Blizzcon bracket, I thought Serral would beat soO and Reynor to make the finals but I was aware that even though it didn't look like it, he actually had a tough side of the bracket. soO and Reynor were probably the 6th and 7th weakest players in the ro8 (Trap was probably the weakest especially since there was mostly zerg in the ro8) but they both have a history of over-performing against Serral. I'm not sure whether to attribute them doing well against Serral to just randomness or to their play-style lining up well against Serral's.

It could be mentality as well. Serral made pretty odd decisions in game 2 against Reynor and lost in a pretty unusual way. In game 5, I can understand why he made ultras. He probably felt his ranged upgrades could not compete against Reynor and Broodlords would just get abducted. Nonetheless, I think he would have likely won (unless he took a pretty bad trade) if he just transitioned into hydras and lurkers as Dark did. Looking back, I think Dark probably benefited considerably from watching (if he did) the Serral vs Reynor series. It looked like he drew inspiration from some of the plays that Serral and Reynor made while correcting some of their errors and adding some of his own inspiration (swarm host play). He also seemed to use lurkers a lot more than he did in the past in that series.
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