WCSDark wins the 2019 WCS Global Finals - Page 5
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NinjaNight
356 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada5427 Posts
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BerserkSword
United States1209 Posts
On November 04 2019 00:45 Nakajin wrote: If the debate pivot into Serral vs Dark, does that mean we can finally have a Maru-Serral match? Dark swept Maru and basically swept the guy who beat Serral. Bring on Dark vs Serral-Maru archon | ||
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Harris1st
Germany2694 Posts
Also congratz to TheDougler for beeing the two time Blizzcon SigBet champ  | ||
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bela.mervado
Hungary118 Posts
On November 04 2019 01:49 Harris1st wrote: Congratz to Dark! Really played incredible! Also congratz to TheDougler for beeing the two time Blizzcon SigBet champ haha well played Grats to Dark! | ||
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-KG-
Denmark1043 Posts
Was surprised to see: - a ZvZ final without Serral or Rogue in it :o - that a protoss actually made it to RO4. That blink DT play was a tournament highlight - ty Classic! | ||
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brickrd
United States4781 Posts
On November 04 2019 02:02 -KG- wrote: Gratz to Dark. So I guess one satisfactory thing about ZvZ finals is that you get to see a zerg lose to nydus-SH... Was surprised to see: - a ZvZ final without Serral or Rogue in it :o - that a protoss actually made it to RO4. That blink DT play was a tournament highlight - ty Classic! classic played out of his mind. this is essentially a meta where toss is borderline forced to do constant, rotating cheeses in pvz, which makes it incredibly hard to win multiple bo5s consecutively. smart zergs counter it by going for heavy low-tech army midgames so they can survive to lategame, which makes it hard to even cheese effectively. for once in history it was super impressive for the protoss to keep cheesing and winning | ||
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sneakyfox
3917 Posts
On November 04 2019 00:35 NinjaNight wrote: Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year You need to add Innovation, soO, and Stats to that list. But yeah, Reynor really does seem to have a style that gives Serral problems. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada5427 Posts
On November 04 2019 03:45 sneakyfox wrote: You need to add Innovation, soO, and Stats to that list. But yeah, Reynor really does seem to have a style that gives Serral problems. Dosen't he have a winning reccord against all of them? Also he currently on a 7-0 streak vs soO Edit: oh he does have a losing reccord vs INno, but they are 2 and 2 in the last two years. Still they aren't especially "Kriptonite" as much as they are very good player vs whom he sometime loses. Reynor is still bellow 50% vs Koreans and honestly he just got through herO and Trap in a broken matchup, it's much more surprising that he's doing thay well vs Serral in particular. | ||
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sneakyfox
3917 Posts
On November 04 2019 03:53 Nakajin wrote: Dosen't he have a winning reccord against all of them? Also he currently on a 7-0 streak vs soO Edit: oh he does have a losing reccord vs INno, but they are 2 and 2 in the last two years. Still they aren't especially "Kriptonite" as much as they are very good player vs whom he sometime loses. Reynor is still bellow 50% vs Koreans and honestly he just got through herO and Trap in a broken matchup, it's much more surprising that he's doing thay well vs Serral in particular. It was more a comment to the "Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year" line... | ||
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Elentos
48681 Posts
On November 04 2019 03:53 Nakajin wrote: Dosen't he have a winning reccord against all of them? He has a winning record against Reynor too. But Reynor taking the tough wins in epic matches in WCS Winter, Summer and Blizzcon sticks more with people than Serral destroying him in everything in-between. | ||
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Drfilip
Sweden234 Posts
On November 04 2019 00:52 BerserkSword wrote: Dark swept Maru and basically swept the guy who beat Serral. Bring on Dark vs Serral-Maru archon Speaking of Dark sweeping Maru, I looked at the map records of the global finals. ZvT had a 85.7% win rate in games (12-2). Juanito was the only terran to take any maps off of zerg. He won 2 games vs soO. One was on Disco Bloodbath and one was on Winter's Gate. The other match ups were way more even. One game difference in TvP (7-8), 61.5% wins for zerg vs protoss (32-20). It was not terrans' tournament this year. At least Maru got to be the last terran in yet another tournament or league. How many Ro8 have Maru been the last terran in now? How many times has it been some other terran? | ||
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Nakajin
Canada5427 Posts
On November 04 2019 04:18 Drfilip wrote: Speaking of Dark sweeping Maru, I looked at the map records of the global finals. ZvT had a 85.7% win rate in games (12-2). Juanito was the only terran to take any maps off of zerg. He won 2 games vs soO. One was on Disco Bloodbath and one was on Winter's Gate. The other match ups were way more even. One game difference in TvP (7-8), 61.5% wins for zerg vs protoss (32-20). It was not terrans' tournament this year. At least Maru got to be the last terran in yet another tournament or league. How many Ro8 have Maru been the last terran in now? How many times has it been some other terran? This was the first time this year that Maru was the only T in the round of 8, but he was the best performing T in GSL S1 (first) and GSL S3 (semi). The rest of the time it was TY in ST 2 (second) and IEM Katowice (round of 12), Gumiho in ST 1 (second) and INno at WESG (first) and GSL S2 (round of 8) TY and INno also both have a HSC final but Maru dosen't go to them. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy2618 Posts
So you answer to a comment replying to one of my posts, quoting my posts as well, with a pointless bait clearly referring to that post and then you pretend you didn't read said post of mine? You are basically admitting to be either very superficial or a massive troll. Feel free to ignore my posts entirely, if you answer to them without having read them you add nothing to any discussion. | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany591 Posts
On November 03 2019 07:46 Xain0n wrote: As for best player on average, Serral's retained this spot before yesterday; as for shining brighter, many shone more than Dark this year, at different times. Best player right now? It's possible, but debatable. Most accomplished player of 2019? With Blizzcon, he is. Here we go again - can't resist to disagree Best player on average really probably is Dark this year so far. Let's compare his results with Serral's over the year: Serral in WCS Winter EU: 2nd (after a sloppy round robin group before that) | Dark in GSL S1: semifinal (close defeat vs Classic) -> imo Dark comes out on top here since a Ro8 of GSL is significantly harder than a WCS Ro8 (as we've seen this blizzcon) -> Serral 0:1 Dark Serral in IEM Katowice: Ro8 (close defeat vs soO, who won the tournament but played mediocre in group stages) | Dark in IEM Katowice: Ro4 (losing to weirdly on/off-switching supermode-Stats) -> Hard to give the edge to anyone of the two. Dark technically made it further but Serral's match vs soO easily could've gone the other way around. I consider this a draw. -> Serral 0:1 Dark Serral and Dark in WESG: -> Serral beats Dark in Ro8, goes on to the finals where he barely gets beaten by Innovation -> Serral 1:1 Dark ---------> Dark in GSL ST1: elimination in first round vs an on point Gumiho (who fights his way to the finals) Serral in WCS Spring: Champion | Dark in GSL S2: Champion -> Both are convincing champions. But GSL is still to be valued above WCS. Dark comes out on top. -> Serral 1:2 Dark Serral in WCS Summer: 2nd | Dark in GSL S3: Ro4 -> I stand by my assessment: GSL Ro4 is harder to get to than WCS final. -> Serral 1:3 Dark ---------> Serral in Assembly Summer 2019: Ro4 Even if the roster of Assembly wasn't highest calibre and Serral's tournament path not the most impressive, he still showed dominance until meeting Stats who managed to beat him in a close match. Comparing this to Dark's GSL ST1 performance, Serral clearly comes out on top. -> Serral 2:3 Dark Serral in GSL vs the World: Champion | Dark in GSL vs the World: elimination in the forst round vs an on point Elarzer (who fights his way to the finals) -> Serral 3:3 Dark Serral in WCS Fall: Champion | Dark in GSL ST2: Champion -> both absolutely demolish their brackets. But GSL ST still features far more really tough players and Dark really took the hardest imaginable road (Maru, Stats, soO, TY) -> Serral 3:4 Dark Both at Blizzcon: -> Serral 3:5 Dark One could argue if the first-round eliminations of Dark aren't tainting his average. But he lost to finalist both times. Also Serral only had one single elimination tournament with potentially high calibre opponents in the first round. Thus he barely ever was in danger to get defeated early in any tournament. Another point of critique would be that perhaps results in tournaments in which they both participated should be valued higher than my assessment that GSL is harder than WCS. Thus one could reward those GSL Ro4>WCS 2nd-occurences with only a half point for Dark each. He still would come on top. | ||
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JJH777
United States3328 Posts
On November 04 2019 05:04 fronkschnonk wrote: Here we go again - can't resist to disagree Best player on average really probably is Dark this year so far. Let's compare his results with Serral's over the year: Serral in WCS Winter EU: 2nd (after a sloppy round robin group before that) | Dark in GSL S1: semifinal (close defeat vs Classic) -> imo Dark comes out on top here since a Ro8 of GSL is significantly harder than a WCS Ro8 (as we've seen this blizzcon) -> Serral 0:1 Dark Serral in IEM Katowice: Ro8 (close defeat vs soO, who won the tournament but played mediocre in group stages) | Dark in IEM Katowice: Ro4 (losing to weirdly on/off-switching supermode-Stats) -> Hard to give the edge to anyone of the two. Dark technically made it further but Serral's match vs soO easily could've gone the other way around. I consider this a draw. -> Serral 0:1 Dark Serral and Dark in WESG: -> Serral beats Dark in Ro8, goes on to the finals where he barely gets beaten by Innovation -> Serral 1:1 Dark ---------> Dark in GSL ST1: elimination in first round vs an on point Gumiho (who fights his way to the finals) Serral in WCS Spring: Champion | Dark in GSL S2: Champion -> Both are convincing champions. But GSL is still to be valued above WCS. Dark comes out on top. -> Serral 1:2 Dark Serral in WCS Summer: 2nd | Dark in GSL S3: Ro4 -> I stand by my assessment: GSL Ro4 is harder to get to than WCS final. -> Serral 1:3 Dark ---------> Serral in Assembly Summer 2019: Ro4 Even if the roster of Assembly wasn't highest calibre and Serral's tournament path not the most impressive, he still showed dominance until meeting Stats who managed to beat him in a close match. Comparing this to Dark's GSL ST1 performance, Serral clearly comes out on top. -> Serral 2:3 Dark Serral in GSL vs the World: Champion | Dark in GSL vs the World: elimination in the forst round vs an on point Elarzer (who fights his way to the finals) -> Serral 3:3 Dark Serral in WCS Fall: Champion | Dark in GSL ST2: Champion -> both absolutely demolish their brackets. But GSL ST still features far more really tough players and Dark really took the hardest imaginable road (Maru, Stats, soO, TY) -> Serral 3:4 Dark Both at Blizzcon: -> Serral 3:5 Dark One could argue if the first-round eliminations of Dark aren't tainting his average. But he lost to finalist both times. Also Serral only had one single elimination tournament with potentially high calibre opponents in the first round. Thus he barely ever was in danger to get defeated early in any tournament. Another point of critique would be that perhaps results in tournaments in which they both participated should be valued higher than my assessment that GSL is harder than WCS. Thus one could reward those GSL Ro4>WCS 2nd-occurences with only a half point for Dark each. He still would come on top. Dark winning the first Korea WESG qualifier without dropping a map should be on here as well. There's a serious argument to be made that the Korea WESG qualifier is one of the hardest events of the year. Imo it only loses to IEM and the 3 Code S seasons. I know it's online but considering that they are playing for a spot at the second highest prize tournament of the year I don't think that matters. | ||
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Poopi
France9290 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada5427 Posts
On November 04 2019 05:19 Poopi wrote: Guys, Maru lost to the eventual winner of the tournament, that counts right? That's a super useful metric you know If Maru had not lost to Dark he would for sure had beaten Reynor, and considering that herO almost beat Reynor but got beaten by Classic we have to assume he would have crush the Italien. So really, if we are honest with ourselves we have to accept that Serral is at best top 5. | ||
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opisska
Poland8821 Posts
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Anc13nt
1019 Posts
On November 04 2019 00:35 NinjaNight wrote: Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year Yeah Reynor has shown himself to be a really good player in this Blizzcon and I would say he is in the lower part of the top 10. Beating herO and Trap 3-2 shows me that he is a legitimately on par with high level Korean players. That said, I think many people thought that because Reynor's ZvZ fought on par with Serral's, he was almost as good at the matchup. In my view, Serral generally does unusually badly against Reynor. Reynor has a very good ZvZ but he has dropped series to Snute and Lambo this year and had a close series against Nerchio. He also lost very badly to Dark. In contrast, Serral generally beats Dark pretty badly and would most likely also win against Snute, Lambo and Nerchio in lopsided fashion. When I saw the Blizzcon bracket, I thought Serral would beat soO and Reynor to make the finals but I was aware that even though it didn't look like it, he actually had a tough side of the bracket. soO and Reynor were probably the 6th and 7th weakest players in the ro8 (Trap was probably the weakest especially since there was mostly zerg in the ro8) but they both have a history of over-performing against Serral. I'm not sure whether to attribute them doing well against Serral to just randomness or to their play-style lining up well against Serral's. It could be mentality as well. Serral made pretty odd decisions in game 2 against Reynor and lost in a pretty unusual way. In game 5, I can understand why he made ultras. He probably felt his ranged upgrades could not compete against Reynor and Broodlords would just get abducted. Nonetheless, I think he would have likely won (unless he took a pretty bad trade) if he just transitioned into hydras and lurkers as Dark did. Looking back, I think Dark probably benefited considerably from watching (if he did) the Serral vs Reynor series. It looked like he drew inspiration from some of the plays that Serral and Reynor made while correcting some of their errors and adding some of his own inspiration (swarm host play). He also seemed to use lurkers a lot more than he did in the past in that series. | ||
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