StarCraft II's most coveted prize is returning to its spiritual home.
Dark defeated Italy's Reynor 4-1 in the grand final of the 2019 WCS Global Finals, restoring both Korea's and his own personal honor as the dominant force in StarCraft II.
The arduous trial of Dark and Korean StarCraft began one year ago at the 2018 Global Finals. Serral, the transcendent Zerg player from Finland, ended decades of Korean dominance in StarCraft and became the first so-called 'foreigner' to win the Global Championship. Along the way, he defeated virtually all of Korea's best (except Maru, through no fault for Serral's), including its most celebrated Zerg player in Dark.
In 2019, Korea waged war against Serral on battlefields all across the world, regaining shreds of its pride with triumphs at WESG, IEM Katowice, and even Finland's Assembly Summer. But Serral seemed to regain his strength at the perfect time, crushing all challengers at August's GSL. vs The World—the last major international before the Global Finals. He headed into the Global Finals as the heavy favorite to win, with odds barely favoring the field of 15 other players against him.
Meanwhile, Dark spent 2019 barely making any positive contribution to Korea's war effort—he was swept by Serral at WESG, and even shrunk in stature after losing to Poland's Elazer at GSL vs. The World. Domestically, he did reach an important career milestone by winning his first Code S title in Season 2. But the trophy that had once been his white whale had lost some of its luster, with Dark admitting it had only made him a 'little bit' happy in an interview before the Global Finals. As TL.net noted in its preview for Dark, the true value of the Code S trophy lay in its ability to grant the bearer 'best in the world' status—Dark, more than anyone, seemed to realize that power had been transferred to another trophy.
Entering the 2019 Global Finals as Korea's #1 seed, Dark got off to a shaky start in the round-of-sixteen. Despite advancing in first place from group A with victories over ShoWTimE and soO, both series were tight 3-2's. His series against ShoWTimE was particularly worrisome, as he was one Nydus-scout away from suffering an opening round upset.
The Dark of the playoffs looked totally different—this was the return of the 2016 Dark that dominated his opponents on his way to the WCS grand finals. Maru, the world's greatest Terran, was brutalized in a 3-0 quarterfinal sweep. Classic, a frequent nemesis of Dark's, suffered the same fate in the semis. And in the grand finals, Serral... did not await.
There would be no 100% scripted storybook triumph for Dark, as Serral had reached the end a different, long-term story arc. A year ago at WCS Montreal 2018, Serral had denied the ascendant Reynor a spot at the Global Finals. Reynor, then already capable of putting Serral on the ropes, had been on the verge of defeating Serral in the finals. But a throw of incalculable magnitude ensued for Reynor, gifting Serral his perfect, four-of-four Circuit Grand Slam on the year. At BlizzCon 2019, the debt was finally repaid: with Serral and Reynor tied 2-2 in the semifinals, Serral gave up a similarly staggering late-game lead to gift his young rival a spot in the grand finals (Ultralisks, as often is the case, proved to be the culprit).
Still, Reynor was more than a suitable stand-in for Dark's demons (even if Dark later expressed his disappointment in not being able to prove himself against Serral directly). High profile defeats to Serral, Rogue, and Elazer had singled out ZvZ as Dark's critical weakness—who better to take advantage of such a flaw than the infamous Serral-killer himself?
But in the grand finals, it became apparently that Dark's multiple vows to improve his ZvZ had not been made in vain. Mutalisks secured Dark his first win of the best-of-seven finals, with Dark ruthlessly snowballing his lead after a single well-timed strike before Reynor's defenses were set. Game two on Thunderbird saw Dark pull out an unorthodox strategy he had shown in the GSL, securing three bases with roaches and spine crawlers before transitioning into Nydus-Swarm Host. Reynor seemed well-prepared for the strategy, diligently shutting down Nydus Worms and sealing Dark into his three bases. But a transition into Lurker tech from Dark ended up being his key to victory, with a single undetected Nydus into the main allowing him to tear Reynor apart from the inside out.
With the 2-0 lead, Dark decided it was time to throw in his signature extreme-aggression. But if Reynor was shaken by his early deficit, it did not show, as he deflected a 12-pool, drone-militia all-in from Dark with ease to recover a point in the series.
Headed into game four on Disco Bloodbath, Dark opted for a mutalisk-based approach once more. While not dealing as much damage as in game one—and facing an unusual anti-building threat from Reynor's corruptors—Dark built enough of an advantage to transition into a powerful lurker-based force to take another game. After Dark had been relentlessly mocked by the Korean community due to a 2018 Serral interview that frankly (and correctly) assessed him as someone who could be easily defeated 'with like 10 lurkers', it was an oddly redemptive performance.
After three wins that had confirmed his mid-to-late game abilities in ZvZ, Dark closed out the series in more 'typical' fashion. Reynor—perhaps finally shaken by the long hours and weight of the moment—offered up a poor defense against Dark's probing speedlings and banelings. A successful hunt of 15 odd drones was enough for for Dark to pull the trigger on a nydus-roach attack, which was in turn enough to extract the final surrender from Reynor.
With the fourth and final GG in hand, Dark strode to center stage to lift the trophy that had eluded him three years ago. After lifting the trophy up high, Dark proceeded to give it that often awkward GSL kiss. And while it felt odd for a moment, the gesture was also quite fitting. The trophy is going back to Korea for a year—it might as well get used to Korean customs.
*****
The Future is Now
Even if Reynor is disappointed for losing the grand finals, one has to look at his entire WCS 2019 campaign and think it was an enormous success. In terms of inter-Circuit play, he was undeniably, unequivocally fantastic: He won two Circuit championships, defeated Serral in two Circuit finals, and then defeated Serral in the semifinals of the biggest tournament of the year.
But, perhaps more importantly (at least to the Korean-elitist portion of the TL.net readership), Reynor ended the year by dispelling much of the doubt surrounding his ability to perform in international events. It was frankly bizarre that Reynor was so poor at IEM Katowice, the first international major of the year, when he had reached the Code S Ro16 in 2018. This international jinx seemed to follow him throughout the year, with disappointing showings at HomeStory Cup, Assembly Summer, and GSL vs. The World.
But at the 2019 Global Finals, Reynor fully lived up to the expectations of being Serral's rival, defeating herO and Trap 3-2, defeating HeroMarine 3-0, and taking another notable victory against Serral. No, it's way too early to anoint him as Serral 2.0. But he's definitely on track to become one of the best foreign players of all time.
Classic: A realistically happy ending
The perfect ending for Classic's career would have been a BlizzCon trophy in his final tournament. But, given that we live in reality and not some ridiculous fan-fiction fever-dream (only Serral in 2018 got to do that), Classic got about as good a send-off as one could reasonably expect.
After earning one last return to the main stage at BlizzCon, he earned everyone's adulation and respect by defeating Rogue in the most stylish victory of the tournament. In game five, with everything on the line, Classic executed a blink-upgraded Dark Templar strategy that straddled the line between brilliance and insanity. We'd say it was insane if it came from Has, but we lean on the side of brilliance here because it came from as successful a player as Classic. Also, it was brilliant because it actually worked.
His other two winning strategies—a cannon rush and fake-stargate into proxy-adept all-in—learned more toward being your typical, filthy Protoss cheeses. But that's the mysterious, wonderful nature of cheese: it's something everyone will cheer for under specific circumstances. The general antipathy toward Zerg and sympathy for Classic's semi-forced retirement united everyone in thinking 'Sir, please cheese that Zerg to f***ing death.'
Oddly enough, the let-down wasn't so bad when Classic was swept by Dark in the next round. The excuses had been baked into the tournament for months, and seemed rather valid upon review: ZvP was a broken match-up, and the format of the tournament hurt brainy, strategic players like Classic. The man did the best he could given the circumstances, and gave us some great entertainment in the process. From the perspective of the fans, there's nothing more they could have asked for.
Korean juggernaut soO finds himself in dire straits on Disco Bloodbath as his ploy to blindside reigning World Champion Serral with 2 Hatch Muta is foiled by a single Ling slipping past the defenses. soO buys himself sufficient time with Lurker aggression to secure a quick fourth, effectively running away with a slight eco advantage. Serral, despite having a leg up on his Korean adversary in terms of upgrades, finds himself having to fend off attacks on multiple fronts, as soO ccommits to a number of Nydus Worms. Failing to find a chink in Serral's armour, the Korean is caught off guard with a counter-Nydus in his main base. The Fin clears out soO's main, sniping the Hive and other crucial tech structures. Despite a much more basic Hydra / Lurker composition with no Viper support, soO deals critical economic damage, taking down Serral's fifth and third. Serral, falling behind in eco, pulls the trigger, pushing out across the map with superior 3/2 upgrades, as soO tries to hold on with no Vipers of his own. The Korean is forced to commit to defend his third, buckling under the deadly Blinding Cloud / Lurker composition.
Game 2
A passive early-game on Acropolis launches both players into textbook 3 base Roach on Roach action. Serral switches things up with a Spire, while soO commits to Nydus play. The Spire is cancelled, as the World Champion realises there's trouble brewing. As desperation mounts, soO tries to brute force his way through Serral's defences at the third, running headfirst into a wall. Although Serral maxes out with superior upgrades, soO manages to hold on for a surprisingly long time. Despite a much more complex army composition, Serral struggles to deal with soO's tactical maneuvres. Serral drives a wedge inbetween soO's expansions as the Korean taps out without taking the final fight.
Game 3
Game three puts both players' micro to the test as Ling / Bane aggression is all the rage on Ephemeron. With neither Serral nor soO yielding for nearly 8 minutes, the game progresses into standard Roach vs Roach with a sprinkling of Korean Nydus play. soO stays true to his aggressive tendencies as Serral once again focuses on quicker tech. For the first time in the series, soO adds Vipers to his own composition. Death by papercuts becomes the name of the game as soO crumbles under Serral's multi-pronged harrassment. As the Korean's 5k mineral bank gets depleted, soO desperately looks to pick a favourable fight. soO's botched army movement sees him give up a crucial defensive position as Serral clenches the 29 minute game and moves on to the semis with a 3:0.
In a game of brawn vs brawn, Reynor proved to be far more muscly than Trap by overrunning his Immortal-Archon-Chargelot with even more Banelings, Roaches, and Ravagers.
Game 2
Trap didn't manage to kill Reynor before BL-Infestor came out and died, despite making it seem deceptively close. Trap pulled off a bizarre tactical recall on top Reynor's Brood Lords (thanks to his mothership getting abducted), which actually seemed like an effective move for about 5 seconds before all of his units died.
Game 3
Trap went for some Stats-style Oracle-Adept harass and then won with an immortal-sentry all-in against a roachless Reynor.
Game 4
Trap's trusted Stargate is the Korean's strategy of choice on Winter's Gate as Reynor invests in Pneumatised Carapace that could have possibly saved his life on Disco Bloodbath. The Italian Stallion manages to sneak an Overlord into Trap's base, however, spotting the Korean's Resonating Glaive follow-up and countering it with ease. Wary of the possible Soul Train-esque attack, Reynor invests in a sizeable Roach / Ling force before taking his fourth. A positioning blunder gives Reynor a seemingly perfect surround which quickly turns south for the Italian. Trap manages to maintain a healthy Archon / Immortal composition and turns the game around to tie up the series.
Game 5
If it ain't broke... Trap's Stargate into Immortal / Sentry on 3 bases gets pushed to the limit as Reynor maxes out on Roach / Swarm Host. The game of whack-a-mole sees Trap miss a number of crucial runbys, giving the Italian free reign of World of Sleepers. Trap's hail mary +2 timing fails to make up for two lost Nexi as Reynor secures a spot in the semi-finals.
Classic fails to inflict any damage with his opening Stargate and gets walled in on Thunderbird as his Archon drop gets stopped in its tracks. GSL Code S champion Rogue closes the game out with Nydus Swarm Host paired with mass Roach / Ling, making a mockery of Classic's pedigree.
Game 2
Game two on Acropolis gets down and dirty as the former SKT Protoss proxies a Twilight Council to research Resonating Glaives, while faking a double Stargate Phoenix follow-up in the main base. Rogue doesn't take the bait, however, as a stray ling runs over the proxy location. Things quickly fall apart, however, as the Zerg isn't ready to take on the aggression and crumbles under pressure.
Game 3
Recognising the key to victory likely lies in ending the games in quick fashion, Classic chooses to follow up his Stargate opening with a Resonating Glaives all-in attack with the support of Immortals, Sentries, and a Warp Prism. The Mkers Protoss fails to find an opening, however, as Rogue's stellar defence sends Classic rearing in disbelief. Left with no choice but to double down on aggression, Classic throws down another Robo and starts pumping out mass Disruptors. Rogue doesn't seem fazed, as he packs his Overlords full of Banelings and starts carpet bombing the Protoss army, putting himself on match point.
Game 4
Triton and a cannon rush to end all cannon rushes. Down 1:2, Classic puts all his eggs into the cannon rush basket, with unassuming confidence sending just one Probe to do the dirty deeds. Rogue, despite being known to cancel his natural and tech into Ravagers under normal circumstances, chooses to defend with Spine Crawlers, Lings, and Queens, failing at the task as his two Hatcheries get disjointed. Classic follows up with a Robo in the main base of the Zerg (and, of course, a dozen Shield Batteries or so) and ties up the series.
Game 5
Feardragon's wildest fantasies come to life as Classic opens with a DT rush, following up with DT Blink (whatever it's called). Rogue fails to confirm his opponent's intentions, losing his Lair to 8 Dark Templar blinking into the main. The Jin Air Zerg is stuck on a basic Roach / Ling / Ravager composition for the remainder of the game, as Classic aims to close the series out with a +1 timing attack. Rogue crumbles under the onslaught of Archons and Immortals and taps out.
The final bout of the quarterfinals commences on Acropolis, as Maru opts for a standard Hellion opening with a Bio follow-up. The Jin Air Green Wings Terran keeps getting bounced as Dark gobbles up his half of the map with relative ease. Failing to find an opening, Maru is forced into a late game situation with Liberators and Ghosts. Dark, recognising the anti-Broodlord / Infestor nature of the Terran composition, stays on mass Hydra / Ling / Bane with Viper support and rolls over Maru's entrenched fourth.
Game 2
Maru sticks to his guns with a Hellion / Cloak Banshee opening on Disco Bloodbath. Sensing an impending 2 Medivac / 2 Tank follow-up, Dark puts down a fourth as bait whilst quickly teching into Mutalisks. Maru takes the bait, commits onto the morphing base as his army gets collapsed upon by Lings, Banes, and flying shrimp. The Mutalisks chase the Terran back to his main, forcing a lift on the third, and putting the Korean Zerg on match point.
Game 3
With hints of spooky voodoo and hoodoo, Dark predicts Maru's BC rush on Winter's Gate and counters with a Roach / Ling / Ravager all-in to close out the series. While the initial attack doesn't end the game, Maru invokes the spirit of former teammate MarineKingPrime as he lands his third CC and attempts to morph it into an Orbital AS the Zerg army is pounding away at the entrance, no doubt regretting his actions as the CC is shot down in flames. A textbook max-out into Nydus seals the deal and Dark moves on to the semi-finals.
Serral takes an advantage in the ling-bane portion of the game, sneaking two banelings past Reynor's defenses and killing a handful of drones. Without any further complications, this is enough to snowball into a victory for Serral a few minutes later, with his roach-ravager pouring out of nydus worms to overwhelm Reynor on multiple fronts.
Game 2
Serral tries to catch Reynor off guard with speedlings and banes off less than 30 drones, but Reynor is smart enough to sniff this out and defend conservatively with roaches while building a steady economic lead. Serral belatedly transitions to roaches as well, but having done no damage with his early gambit, is doomed to lose.
Game 3
Both players actually get to build up strong three base economies before killing each other this time around. Reynor opts for muta-ling-bane, while Serral goes for the more conventional ground based army. Reynor is abuse to use the mobility of his composition before Serral's defenses are completely set, dealing significant economic damage while securing more expansions on his side of the map. By the time Serral has the kind of Hydra-Roach-Infestor force he needs to move out, the economic advantage is just overwhelming for Reynor. Despite a few cool fights (fungals are good against banes!) from Serral, he's just overrun in the end.
Game 4
Once more, we see Reynor's muta-ling-bane style against Serral's ground-based composition. This time, Reynor doesn't get a significant mid-game advantage, and we get to see how muta-ling-bane REALLY struggles against 200/200 armies of hydra-lurker-roach-viper-infestor. Reynor tries a belated transition to ultras, but it's too late against Serral's sizable lurker force.
Game 5
Serral turns the tables against Reynor here, going for muta-ling-bane against Reynor's ground-bound troops. Not surprisingly, Serral proves to be awesome at this style, taking out gazillions of drones with baneling run-bys and muta attacks. Unfortunately, he's not quite as good at consolidating the lead. Remember how his hydra-lurker-roach-viper-infestor closed out Reynor last game? Well, Reynor uses that comp to claw his way back from behind. It turns out parasitic bomb wrecks mutas, while lurkers really, really shred ultras. There's more to this game than just unit counters—even Serral admitted his throw via Twitter. Best to just watch it!
A bold attempt to trip Dark up with a brash Cannon rush on Acropolis backfires, as Classic's investment only yields three Drones' worth of direct damage. Dark's Roach / Queen Nydus runs into unexpected trouble, however, as Classic's double Stargate Phoenix holds the aggression and launches a counter attack. The game turns into a real slobber-knocker as both players trade blows. Classic, having his third razed by a Roach counter for the second time, launches a desperate offensive to snatch the game away from Dark. The Stargate-based army fails to break through Dark's Hydra / Infestor / Viper composition, putting the Protoss at an 0:1 deficit in the series.
Game 2
Classic's Stargate into Orange Discus all-in on Thunderbird catches Dark unawares as Drone deaths reach double digits. Fully aware of the potential Nydus counter, Classic switches into double Immortal production with Chargelot support. Dark, however, skips the mid-game Roach ramp and techs up straight into Swarm Hosts, reciprocating with some damage of his own.
Indecisiveness abound, Classic lets Dark abuse Zerg mobility and doesn't capitalise on having a stronger army. Botched army control sees Dark clump up under psi-storm, however, as Swarm Host counter-attacks remain the only thing keeping Classic back. Pulling the trigger upon losing his third, Classic fails to break through the Zerg's defence, putting Dark on match point.
Game 3
Game three on Disco Bloodbath turns bloody as Classic's Resonating Glaive all-in gets stopped in its tracks. While building placement and Phoenix-based vision denial did keep Dark guessing, a safe investment into both Roaches and Banelings allow the Zerg to counter the two base aggression with relative ease. Sensing weakness, Dark rallies across the map and rolls over the Protoss army, completely unfazed by Disruptor shots.
It was very sad to see the stream end so quickly after the final game. People were filing for the exits while the winner's interview was still going on because it was so late in the arena and staff were pressuring them to leave. No confetti, no analyst desk, no respect for the winner. Just a depressing finale to what has become a depressing year for SC2.
On November 03 2019 05:32 Powerfoe wrote: It was very sad to see the stream end so quickly after the final game. People were filing for the exits while the winner's interview was still going on because it was so late in the arena and staff were pressuring them to leave. No confetti, no analyst desk, no respect for the winner. Just a depressing finale to what has become a depressing year for SC2.
yeah was a bit of a let down, still overall I did enjoy the tournament despite the ludicrous zerg imbalance lol
Congrats to Dark!! 3 years belated, and so consistent all these years too. I'd almost lost hope as a long time fan, so happy to see him win today.
Honestly great games too, I thought the ZvZs were actually pretty cool to watch. Wouldn't mind more race diversity in the future but think we did well with what we had
In Chinese community it says Reynor has a passive "intelligence reduction aura", which reduces both himself and his opponents‘ level by a large margin. Though both Reynor and his opponent play terrible at only 20% of their normal level, Reynor has little bit more experience at this situation and may win the game at last. However it seems Dark is immune to this aura.
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
On November 03 2019 07:13 pzlama333 wrote: In Chinese community it says Reynor has a passive "intelligence reduction aura", which reduces both himself and his opponents‘ level by a large margin. Though both Reynor and his opponent play terrible at only 20% of their normal level, Reynor has little bit more experience at this situation and may win the game at last. However it seems Dark is immune to this aura.
I didn't know you called "Has" as "Reynor" in Chinese community
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
Your first point: at points maybe the others sho me brighter. Consistently, averaged over the year? I disagree.
But I agree, it's hard to declare him unequivocally best since he didn't hit serral. But serrals fault not his. Weird spot like last year.
On November 03 2019 07:13 pzlama333 wrote: In Chinese community it says Reynor has a passive "intelligence reduction aura", which reduces both himself and his opponents‘ level by a large margin. Though both Reynor and his opponent play terrible at only 20% of their normal level, Reynor has little bit more experience at this situation and may win the game at last. However it seems Dark is immune to this aura.
I didn't know you called "Has" as "Reynor" in Chinese community
Reminds me a lot of how Gumiho used to be too. That legendary game on Antiga Shipyard vs MMA is probably the best example.
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
Your first point: at points maybe the others sho me brighter. Consistently, averaged over the year? I disagree.
But I agree, it's hard to declare him unequivocally best since he didn't hit serral. But serrals fault not his. Weird spot like last year.
As for best player on average, Serral's retained this spot before yesterday; as for shining brighter, many shone more than Dark this year, at different times. Best player right now? It's possible, but debatable. Most accomplished player of 2019? With Blizzcon, he is.
As do most people I think that it would be much better to spread the matches over two days. But now that they decided to do all of it in a single day, I think they did it pretty much as good as they could.
It was great to see them drop the analyst desk and long TalkCraft sessions for most of the night and instead just have the casters do a quick intro to each match. The whole thing ran much smoother and there was much less downtime. They actually managed to get through six Bo5s and a Bo7 in 10 hours (counting from when the first match began). The only thing I would change is to have it start a couple of hours earlier, it really shouldn't be a problem to start the first match at 11 am.
I really hope they adopt this way of doing things at other WCS events as well, even if those don't have the same time constraints. It makes for a much better viewing experience.
Very well done and well deserved by Dark, he came so close in 2016 but then couldn't close it out for a few years. Glad to see him finally claim the crown.
Huge shoutout to the casters and crew to pull off a 12 hour event. Also, props to the observer(s?) for working 12 hrs straight too. Twitch chat gave that observer hell in the finals, but man imagine keeping up with those amazing pros as long as that person did.
On November 03 2019 08:15 paloma_rivers wrote: serral fanboy salty at it again?? haha.
congrats DARKKKKK! and South Korea! in solid performance, congrats Reynor for 2nd place, he needs more training in korea and he'll be a great player
I believe he said he wants to go back to Korea and I'm hoping he does.
Since Serral can't be bothered with it, I'm hoping Reynor goes and continues to improve. It'd be great to see him snatch the best foreigner title in the world.
On November 03 2019 08:25 BisuDagger wrote: Huge shoutout to the casters and crew to pull off a 12 hour event. Also, props to the observer(s?) for working 12 hrs straight too. Twitch chat gave that observer hell in the finals, but man imagine keeping up with those amazing pros as long as that person did.
Yea to hell with that. Observing is tiring dude. Did they really have the same person do it for 12 hours straight? That's borderline criminal.
On November 03 2019 08:15 paloma_rivers wrote: serral fanboy salty at it again?? haha.
congrats DARKKKKK! and South Korea! in solid performance, congrats Reynor for 2nd place, he needs more training in korea and he'll be a great player
I believe he said he wants to go back to Korea and I'm hoping he does.
Since Serral can't be bothered with it, I'm hoping Reynor goes and continues to improve. It'd be great to see him snatch the best foreigner title in the world.
as long as the affirmative action WCS circuit exists, there is little to no financial incentive to go to korea
You saw it happen to Neeb. Neeb is an absurdly talented foreigner. won kespa cup 18 years old, gsl semifinalist at like 20 years old.
he used to live and practice in korea good but came back to america because he could just farm the region locked trophies and make easy money instead of fighting for scraps in the dogfight that is GSL
On November 03 2019 08:15 paloma_rivers wrote: serral fanboy salty at it again?? haha.
congrats DARKKKKK! and South Korea! in solid performance, congrats Reynor for 2nd place, he needs more training in korea and he'll be a great player
I believe he said he wants to go back to Korea and I'm hoping he does.
Since Serral can't be bothered with it, I'm hoping Reynor goes and continues to improve. It'd be great to see him snatch the best foreigner title in the world.
as long as the affirmative action WCS circuit exists, there is little to no financial incentive to go to korea
You saw it happen to Neeb. Neeb is an absurdly talented foreigner. won kespa cup 18 years old, gsl semifinalist at like 20 years old.
he used to live and practice in korea good but came back to america because he could just farm the region locked trophies and make easy money instead of fighting for scraps in the dogfight that is GSL
On November 03 2019 08:15 paloma_rivers wrote: serral fanboy salty at it again?? haha.
congrats DARKKKKK! and South Korea! in solid performance, congrats Reynor for 2nd place, he needs more training in korea and he'll be a great player
I believe he said he wants to go back to Korea and I'm hoping he does.
Since Serral can't be bothered with it, I'm hoping Reynor goes and continues to improve. It'd be great to see him snatch the best foreigner title in the world.
If Reynor surpasses Serral, he becomes the best player in the world, foreigner or not.
As far as I know, Neeb had no intention to live and play in Korea for years; this narrative of winning easy money in WCS...stealing them from Serral and Reynor? It worked out pretty well, I have to say xd
It's one thing to recognize GSL as the home of the majority of the best Sc2 players, it's another to think Korea is the holy promised land. It has actually being shown that you can become the best even without residing in Korea; while having Serral and/or Reynor in GSL would be interesting, it js not(anymore) an essential requirement to be one of Sc2's greats.
On November 03 2019 08:15 paloma_rivers wrote: serral fanboy salty at it again?? haha.
congrats DARKKKKK! and South Korea! in solid performance, congrats Reynor for 2nd place, he needs more training in korea and he'll be a great player
I believe he said he wants to go back to Korea and I'm hoping he does.
Since Serral can't be bothered with it, I'm hoping Reynor goes and continues to improve. It'd be great to see him snatch the best foreigner title in the world.
If Reynor surpasses Serral, he becomes the best player in the world, foreigner or not.
Yea, that's your opinion. Serral can't ever hold that title without a Code S title. that's mine.
Dark defeated the best Terran,best Protoss and the one who defeated the best Zerg on his way to the championship.He deserved it.It's a honorable moment for Dark.But for me,Classic,the Protoss itself,is the most honorable player in this tournament.
On November 03 2019 08:51 FBTsingLoong wrote: Dark defeated the best Terran,best Protoss and the one who defeated the best Zerg on his way to the championship.He deserved it.It's a honorable moment for Dark.But for me,Classic,the Protoss itself,is the most honorable player in this tournament.
Classic got so close to winning that nydus game. He is leaving his final tournament(for now) in the most memorable way possible.
Wish we could have a serious discussion of how mediocre this blizzcon was. Balance and games aside Blizzard really didn't seem to care about the show they were putting on. Just watching what overwatch is doing with all these videos, fan interactions, crowd camera shots, ect, it's amazing how much better a show can be put on.
The blizzcon crew probably just wanted to get the show done with and go to sleep for the "real event" which started the next day.
Of course the casting crew did their best and big congrats to them.
On November 03 2019 08:15 paloma_rivers wrote: serral fanboy salty at it again?? haha.
congrats DARKKKKK! and South Korea! in solid performance, congrats Reynor for 2nd place, he needs more training in korea and he'll be a great player
I believe he said he wants to go back to Korea and I'm hoping he does.
Since Serral can't be bothered with it, I'm hoping Reynor goes and continues to improve. It'd be great to see him snatch the best foreigner title in the world.
If Reynor surpasses Serral, he becomes the best player in the world, foreigner or not.
Yea, that's your opinion. Serral can't ever hold that title without a Code S title. that's mine.
A fringe opinion. We may discuss if Serral is now the best or not in the wake of Dark's victory, only fanatism could deny Serral was the undisputed best player in the world last year, without having played in Code S once.
Well done to Dark. Always a solid player and was rock solid for the Global Finals.
Alas, still an ultimately disappointing and anti-climactic day.
1) No Maru vs Serral. Actually, I was kind of relieved because people want to see a fair contest. With current state in balance, Maru would have probably got swept like he did by Dark. The best time for this showdown would have been at last year's Global Finals when the hype was at pitch fever. Right now I'd say Serral vs Dark and Serral vs Stats are the more relevant rivalries of our time.
2) No Serral vs. Dark. It was a matter of intense personal honour that Dark proved himself here. On the other hand, Serral defeating Dark should put to bed any final doubts about who was the best of the year. Unfortunately, this showdown was denied--what was most sad was Reynor dispatched the reigning king only to be swept by Dark. Pretty anti-climactic.
The problem here isn't that Reynor's not a worthy opponent--Reynor's ZvZ is top-level. It's that his ZvT and ZvP isn't as top-level. Serral is the complete package, the ultimate weapon--a foreigner intruder whom the Koreans truly respect, thus representing a problem the Koreans desperately wanted to solve. Dark, with his immense skill and ego, wanted to be that saviour--it became an obsession for him. So Serral vs. Dark would have been a proper showdown of World-Best vs. Challenger, instead of the Foreigner-Sidekick vs Disappointed-Dark showdown we got. I felt like a Serral vs. Dark Finals would have been as symbolic as the Maru vs. Serral match we were denied last year.
Note: I don't want to take anything away from Reynor--he put on a stellar show and along with TIME has intensely bright futures.
3) BlizzCon production quality issues others have already talked about. There was also something inherently "unfriendly" about that stadium in the Finals. You could hardly see the crowds due to the lighting difference, but that could partly be down to limitations in the digital capture (digital image sensors have a lower dynamic range than our eyes). It felt like the players were competing in a chamber by themselves and seemed a bit surreal. In contrast I really enjoyed the Playoffs in the AfreecaTV studios--great lighting and lighting evenness, banner props, production quality etc. You can't beat dat sweet GSL production.
On November 03 2019 08:15 paloma_rivers wrote: serral fanboy salty at it again?? haha.
congrats DARKKKKK! and South Korea! in solid performance, congrats Reynor for 2nd place, he needs more training in korea and he'll be a great player
I believe he said he wants to go back to Korea and I'm hoping he does.
Since Serral can't be bothered with it, I'm hoping Reynor goes and continues to improve. It'd be great to see him snatch the best foreigner title in the world.
If Reynor surpasses Serral, he becomes the best player in the world, foreigner or not.
As far as I know, Neeb had no intention to live and play in Korea for years; this narrative of winning easy money in WCS...stealing them from Serral and Reynor? It worked out pretty well, I have to say xd
It's one thing to recognize GSL as the home of the majority of the best Sc2 players, it's another to think Korea is the holy promised land. It has actually being shown that you can become the best even without residing in Korea; while having Serral and/or Reynor in GSL would be interesting, it js not(anymore) an essential requirement to be one of Sc2's greats.
A win against Showtime, Has, Special? You can hardly call that an achievement. At this point Serral has only done what Neeb has achieved before - surprise everyone. He has lost all tournaments where there are no restrictions. He's only won tournaments where half of it are circuit players.
Reynor has already tried Code S and got destroyed. Serral, full of excuses.
To be the best, you have to compete where the best players are found, no matter how you sugar-coat it.
On November 03 2019 08:15 paloma_rivers wrote: serral fanboy salty at it again?? haha.
congrats DARKKKKK! and South Korea! in solid performance, congrats Reynor for 2nd place, he needs more training in korea and he'll be a great player
I believe he said he wants to go back to Korea and I'm hoping he does.
Since Serral can't be bothered with it, I'm hoping Reynor goes and continues to improve. It'd be great to see him snatch the best foreigner title in the world.
If Reynor surpasses Serral, he becomes the best player in the world, foreigner or not.
Yea, that's your opinion. Serral can't ever hold that title without a Code S title. that's mine.
A fringe opinion. We may discuss if Serral is now the best or not in the wake of Dark's victory, only fanatism could deny Serral was the undisputed best player in the world last year, without having played in Code S once.
Sure I'll give you that. WCS > winning 3 GSL Code S IN A ROW. Dream on!
On November 03 2019 09:02 AxiomBlurr wrote: The blink Dts in game 5 v Rogue by Classic was some of the most clutch game play I have ever seen, the balls on the Chin are E(sports)normous!
And it was against Sexy boy, the player also with balls of steel. And it is actually a payback for what Rogue did before to him at match point. Classic was then the recent SSL, IEM champion:
Congratulations to Dark. Well deserved victory. Dropped only 1 map in playoff. He is #1 ranked player in SK. Beat Maru, Classic and Reynor on his way to BC title. Can't complain.
It is unfortunately that this BC was so disappointing with a ridiculous schedule. His winning moment was so underwhelming as I could barely hear any cheering. It is just sad.
Dark was a monster this tourny, I was lucky enough to meet him at the last Super tourny he played in Korea. Him and his gf are both super kind and humble, sooo much respect for him. Wonderful competition.
Thank you to all the players, casters, organizers and observers, SC2 is a beautiful game, may our scene live long!!! <3
Grats to dark, he played well. But it sucks that he ended up winning this one in particular out of all of them since he's been so good for all of lotv. It's hard to overemphasize how depressing this finals was, thanks to a combination of balance issues and relegation of sc2 to basically side show status.
On November 03 2019 07:13 pzlama333 wrote: In Chinese community it says Reynor has a passive "intelligence reduction aura", which reduces both himself and his opponents‘ level by a large margin. Though both Reynor and his opponent play terrible at only 20% of their normal level, Reynor has little bit more experience at this situation and may win the game at last. However it seems Dark is immune to this aura.
I didn't know you called "Has" as "Reynor" in Chinese community
Well, I would say, though Has also has the same aura, there's a little difference. It says, when you play against Has, he will lower your level to be same as his, and he has more experience at this level. However, Has has limit and cannot play better. But for someone else like Reynor, he may play better, but when Reynor activate his aura, both Reynor himself and his opponent would play terrible.
On November 03 2019 07:46 kajtarp wrote: Im still upset to Reynor. Beating Serral to give us a shitty finals. Serral vs Dark could have been an awesome final.
I feel you. Feeling upset that Classic won against Rogue to give Rogue chance to beat Dark
But if anyone had to Protoss cheese, I guess Classic is the most forgivable.
On November 03 2019 07:46 kajtarp wrote: Im still upset to Reynor. Beating Serral to give us a shitty finals. Serral vs Dark could have been an awesome final.
I feel you. Feeling upset that Classic won against Rogue to deny Rogue chance to beat Dark
But if anyone had to Protoss cheese, I guess Classic is the most forgivable.
On November 03 2019 15:08 Ej_ wrote: It's nice that Xainon found a way to derail a thread about Dark's victory as well.
Everything good on TeamSerral.net
Let me be honest: there are Serral fanboys (count me in) and then there are people who bash him all the time. Those, let´s call them "haters", pretend to be the paragons of objectivity that simply point out the rampart fanaticism of Serral fans. In my opinion this is highly dishonest and their attitude is often really toxic. Every victor Serral gets is swept aside by: "not a GSL" or "did not defeat Maru" -level of comments. Summa summarum: nobody is perfect, but let us recognize our own faults also.
My favorite thing about BlizzCon was the format change: the Ro16 going to Bo5s Made the tournament so much more exciting. Also putting everything on one day I think made it a better tournament overall: you had to be good at both a GSL preparation style AND a weekender style.
THAT BEING SAID: I feel the last two BlizzCons we have been robbed of the best finals matchup. I think we DID get the correct top four this year but I really wanted to at least see a Serral Dark match after being denied Serral Maru last year. This is the second year in a row it hasn’t been a matchup of the two best players from the year.
No disrespect to Reynor; but until he elevates his play to consistently win against higher tier players like Serral has (yes I get the irony since he won head to head) he won’t be viewed as a serious threat for title contender. Once he advanced I knew the likelihood of a stellar finals was pretty low. So, Reynor- we know you can match Serral: but can you start beating Korea as much as Serral has? That’s the REAL question you need to answer next year. Looking forward to the reply.
I watched the first game, then opted for sex with my wife instead of the second one and went to sleep, favoring and early morning start the other day so that I can stop by to try to find a rare species of goose on my way to Prague instead of staying up for SC2. Maybe it's me getting old or just moving on with my life, or just the terrible anti-european schedule of the whole thing (starting with Ro16 already) but I think the current situation with the SC2 competition is a part of it, it's simply not as attractive to me as it used to be.
I have been watching SC2 from about 2011 and I soon found out that GSL is what I care about the most. I didn't watch it religiously, but when I had time, I would tune in, the late morning slot was actually great considering my lax working hours and I become a relatively invested fan. But the last few years, GSL seems a little bit like a ghost town, there are virtually no knew people coming, old greats are leaving and the whole thing seems like a competition of who gets bored with SC2 the latest or who was the youngest when they started and thus can postpone military duty the longest. And this is, to a large extent, caused by the heavily limited chances any prospective Korean player would have to compete for any significant money outside of the few GSLs during the year.
Fair enough, so Blizzard took a huge dump on the country that created the whole idea of eSports and all the people in it. Let's see what it was for: they have sacrificed all this greatness that Korean SC2 used to be to "nurture a scene" that has produced a whooping 2 players that can get out of Ro16 at Blizzcon - and even that happened basically thanks to making their race OP enough so that they have to worry mostly about being really good at ZvZ, because the other matchups play themselves at this moment. Or are we still pretending this is not on purpose, to maintain the aura that this is somewhat fair? Anyway, was that really worth it? The whole experiment with region lock is obviously a complete failure, it hugely disrespects the people in Korea who made this thing happen in this first place and alienates all their fans ... like me.
Ironically, I still enjoy playing the game - I haven't actually found time to play it in a long time, but some of my great friends (found originally at this forum, in the olden times when there was any veneer of friendliness around here) convinced me to play some teams with them and man, is that still so much fun. I even went so far to play 1v1s and that's still thrilling as ever. But watching SC2 has gone from a thing that used to be on in our house almost every day at some point (somewhat like a TV in background for normies) to something we don't even think about much of doing. For me, this is really the end of an era and it's a pretty sad one seeing how said era was destroyed for stupid reasons that have not even turned out to be reached.
On November 03 2019 17:11 opisska wrote: I watched the first game, then opted for sex with my wife instead of the second one and went to sleep, favoring and early morning start the other day so that I can stop by to try to find a rare species of goose on my way to Prague instead of staying up for SC2. Maybe it's me getting old or just moving on with my life, or just the terrible anti-european schedule of the whole thing (starting with Ro16 already) but I think the current situation with the SC2 competition is a part of it, it's simply not as attractive to me as it used to be.
I have been watching SC2 from about 2011 and I soon found out that GSL is what I care about the most. I didn't watch it religiously, but when I had time, I would tune in, the late morning slot was actually great considering my lax working hours and I become a relatively invested fan. But the last few years, GSL seems a little bit like a ghost town, there are virtually no knew people coming, old greats are leaving and the whole thing seems like a competition of who gets bored with SC2 the latest or who was the youngest when they started and thus can postpone military duty the longest. And this is, to a large extent, caused by the heavily limited chances any prospective Korean player would have to compete for any significant money outside of the few GSLs during the year.
Fair enough, so Blizzard took a huge dump on the country that created the whole idea of eSports and all the people in it. Let's see what it was for: they have sacrificed all this greatness that Korean SC2 used to be to "nurture a scene" that has produced a whooping 2 players that can get out of Ro16 at Blizzcon - and even that happened basically thanks to making their race OP enough so that they have to worry mostly about being really good at ZvZ, because the other matchups play themselves at this moment. Or are we still pretending this is not on purpose, to maintain the aura that this is somewhat fair? Anyway, was that really worth it? The whole experiment with region lock is obviously a complete failure, it hugely disrespects the people in Korea who made this thing happen in this first place and alienates all their fans ... like me.
Ironically, I still enjoy playing the game - I haven't actually found time to play it in a long time, but some of my great friends (found originally at this forum, in the olden times when there was any veneer of friendliness around here) convinced me to play some teams with them and man, is that still so much fun. I even went so far to play 1v1s and that's still thrilling as ever. But watching SC2 has gone from a thing that used to be on in our house almost every day at some point (somewhat like a TV in background for normies) to something we don't even think about much of doing. For me, this is really the end of an era and it's a pretty sad one seeing how said era was destroyed for stupid reasons that have not even turned out to be reached.
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
INno is my fav' but i can't see how he looked stronger than Dark overall this year.
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
INno is my fav' but i can't see how he looked stronger than Dark overall this year.
I give so much respect to Dark, as he wanted to beat Serral at the final, instead of Reynor. Even if it could potentially cost him the trophy. Just shows how much being "the best" meant to him more than the prize money.
On November 03 2019 17:11 opisska wrote: I watched the first game, then opted for sex with my wife instead of the second one and went to sleep, favoring and early morning start the other day so that I can stop by to try to find a rare species of goose on my way to Prague instead of staying up for SC2. Maybe it's me getting old or just moving on with my life, or just the terrible anti-european schedule of the whole thing (starting with Ro16 already) but I think the current situation with the SC2 competition is a part of it, it's simply not as attractive to me as it used to be.
I have been watching SC2 from about 2011 and I soon found out that GSL is what I care about the most. I didn't watch it religiously, but when I had time, I would tune in, the late morning slot was actually great considering my lax working hours and I become a relatively invested fan. But the last few years, GSL seems a little bit like a ghost town, there are virtually no knew people coming, old greats are leaving and the whole thing seems like a competition of who gets bored with SC2 the latest or who was the youngest when they started and thus can postpone military duty the longest. And this is, to a large extent, caused by the heavily limited chances any prospective Korean player would have to compete for any significant money outside of the few GSLs during the year.
Fair enough, so Blizzard took a huge dump on the country that created the whole idea of eSports and all the people in it. Let's see what it was for: they have sacrificed all this greatness that Korean SC2 used to be to "nurture a scene" that has produced a whooping 2 players that can get out of Ro16 at Blizzcon - and even that happened basically thanks to making their race OP enough so that they have to worry mostly about being really good at ZvZ, because the other matchups play themselves at this moment. Or are we still pretending this is not on purpose, to maintain the aura that this is somewhat fair? Anyway, was that really worth it? The whole experiment with region lock is obviously a complete failure, it hugely disrespects the people in Korea who made this thing happen in this first place and alienates all their fans ... like me.
Ironically, I still enjoy playing the game - I haven't actually found time to play it in a long time, but some of my great friends (found originally at this forum, in the olden times when there was any veneer of friendliness around here) convinced me to play some teams with them and man, is that still so much fun. I even went so far to play 1v1s and that's still thrilling as ever. But watching SC2 has gone from a thing that used to be on in our house almost every day at some point (somewhat like a TV in background for normies) to something we don't even think about much of doing. For me, this is really the end of an era and it's a pretty sad one seeing how said era was destroyed for stupid reasons that have not even turned out to be reached.
Piss out.
Also to add to my previous post, I still find SC2 almost as entertaining as I used but I've only been a big fan for a few years in fairness. That said, I agree with a lot of your sentiments; winning it no longer feels as grand and momentous as it used to. I remember after GSL vs the World this year, I wasn't as hyped for the GSL season 3 finals as I would normally be because winning it feels more like winning any ordinary tournament.
As an INnoVation fan, I think your point that "old greats are leaving and the whole thing seems like a competition of who gets bored with SC2 the latest" resonates with me the most. It disappoints me to see him drop out so early in most tournaments nowadays and lose to opponents he would have seldom lost to in his prime. When he won WESG, I felt like he finally returned to his old form but now I think it was his last hurrah. I sometimes feel like INnoVation, of possibly all the top Korean players, has lost the most passion for the game.
It does seem to me that Blizzard is least likely to nerf Zerg and has been for a while. Many Terran units like the Reaper and Raven were nerfed immediately after ByuN and Maru, respectively, enjoyed considerable success with them. However, when I looked at the balance of those eras, it was not clear to me that the TvZ matchup was excessively imbalanced during the times when those units were seemingly OP. It seems more likely that these units were only "overpowered" in the hands of a few players.
As another example, many people thought Protoss was overpowered in early 2019 because of their representation in the later stages of IEM Katowice and Super Tournament and I was not above that either, for the record. However, Protoss went 108-97 in IEM Katowice, had no Korean representation in WESG, went 48-55 in 2019 GSL Season 1 and 20-15 in Super Tournament. The point is that it was not really even clear at the time that Protoss was imbalanced but because of community outrage, they were nerfed severely in PvZ. Looking back, the immortal all-in meta was very boring and I still would have liked to see it get nerfed but it seems clear to me that the race should never have been nerfed as a whole.
Still, I wouldn't want to speculate that they wanted to prop up Serral and Reynor because they didn't seem to do that in 2018. I think they wanted to appease the community in the examples where Terran and Protoss got nerfed and it ended up making the affected races under-powered. Not very many people in the community complained about Zerg for a while this year and so Zerg kind of sneaked by with few nerfs and probably a couple buffs. It took a while for everyone to realize that Zerg is pretty imbalanced and is actually deserving of a nerf, unlike in the previous examples that I have mentioned. However, by the time this happened, it was already a bit too late to do a large balance patch. I suppose my takeaway is that the balance team should not be overly reliant on the input of the SC2 community. They should have been proactive enough to nerf Zerg before everyone realized what it had become and they should have resisted community opinion that erroneously thought a race was overpowered. But it is me easy for me to say because hindsight is 20/20..
Great games but I have to agree with the abruptness of the ending and the terrible stage set up.
But I think this year's blizzcon suffered most from comparison - now there is a body of games that makes it seem worse than how epic this tourney would have been just a couple years ago.
Highlight of the year will definitely be Soo's championship - with a biitersweet cast from incontrol.
On November 03 2019 07:46 kajtarp wrote: Im still upset to Reynor. Beating Serral to give us a shitty finals. Serral vs Dark could have been an awesome final.
You should be upset at Serral for losing, then.
btw let's not forget Reynor defeated Serral 3 times out of 5 in this year's WCS...
One advantage of the zvz meta is that I went in with low expectations and did not go anywhere near buying a pass this year. I was pretty bitter in the threads when zergs were doing their thing
BUT overall I have to say I was pleasantly surprised how quality this tourney and the games were, especially the Ro16, especially thanks to bo5 change. I think Classic's series with Rogue will go down as one of the games most memorable big matches. Classic's whole run is worth a watch except vs Dark. Reynor vs Serral was a roller coaster and a very worthy zvz (unlike the final).
I think one reason the eventual winner is kind of not getting the attention of normal winners is in part because of serral being KO'd by tyhe runner up and robbing us of 'the final', and also because most of the games he was in were fairly one sided ugly games... vs Classic, vs Reynor and (especially) vs Maru. He knocked out some very popular non-zerg players in pretty dispiriting games.
But overall I actually enjoyed the event, with mild rage-gasms mostly related to Classic who lost the tournament but won our hearts.
Now thank fk this meta will hopefully be drawing to a close and a new era of expensive cooldown worms, super fast zealots, non-instantaneous zerg teleportation and super tanky IT's can begin!
Inno said on his stream that gaming is no longer important to him like it was before, after his WESG win. Others Korean like Soo, Rogue also admit they got lazy and did not practice hard anymore (until important tournaments), and more often I see top Protoss in GSL got 10+ probes killed by a widowmine drop while nothing was happening anywhere else. I can't believe people still say that Koreans are not getting worse.
On November 03 2019 19:50 parksonsc wrote: Inno said on his stream that gaming is no longer important to him like it was before, after his WESG win. Others Korean like Soo, Rogue also admit they got lazy and did not practice hard anymore (until important tournaments), and more often I see top Protoss in GSL got 10+ probes killed by a widowmine drop while nothing was happening anywhere else. I can't believe people still say that Koreans are not getting worse.
people don't want to admit the truth and want to hype up foreigners finally getting to the level of koreans.
On November 03 2019 08:15 paloma_rivers wrote: serral fanboy salty at it again?? haha.
congrats DARKKKKK! and South Korea! in solid performance, congrats Reynor for 2nd place, he needs more training in korea and he'll be a great player
I believe he said he wants to go back to Korea and I'm hoping he does.
Since Serral can't be bothered with it, I'm hoping Reynor goes and continues to improve. It'd be great to see him snatch the best foreigner title in the world.
If Reynor surpasses Serral, he becomes the best player in the world, foreigner or not.
As far as I know, Neeb had no intention to live and play in Korea for years; this narrative of winning easy money in WCS...stealing them from Serral and Reynor? It worked out pretty well, I have to say xd
It's one thing to recognize GSL as the home of the majority of the best Sc2 players, it's another to think Korea is the holy promised land. It has actually being shown that you can become the best even without residing in Korea; while having Serral and/or Reynor in GSL would be interesting, it js not(anymore) an essential requirement to be one of Sc2's greats.
No? Reynor surpassed Serral at this BlizzCon but didn't become the best player in the world, that was Dark, winning the BlizzCon (after GSL S2 and GSL ST2). Well at least the best zerg in the world, we'll see if he stays on top on a more balanced patch but I believe he is more all rounded than Reynor
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
INno is my fav' but i can't see how he looked stronger than Dark overall this year.
That's definitely not what I meant. It should have been clear by reading the previous post, but I admit this sentence actually make it seem that I meant what you understood, my bad.
I meant that there were periods in 2019 year when other players looked better than Dark, who actually convincingly seemed the best(Serral being supposedly better, but Dark actually looked better at BlizzCon) in October. Overall, Dark is the most consistent player(tied with Serral) and the most accomplished player in 2019, but it's not like he looked dominant this year.
On November 03 2019 15:08 Ej_ wrote: It's nice that Xainon found a way to derail a thread about Dark's victory as well.
Everything good on TeamSerral.net
One may think that your capability of identifying causal links isn't the best, but I'm pretty sure you are doing intentionally to personally attack me every time. You don't like me? Be sure that I don't like you as well.
The thread "derails" because every "non Serral player wins x" degenerates into "that player is much better than Serral, who basically sucks" or "that player is the best that we have ever seen on earth", which most of the times is a sound exaggeration. That's not TeamSerral.net more than it is KoreanElitist.net, the respect some people here pay to Serral is much inferior to those any progamer would deserve.
[/QUOTE] No? Reynor surpassed Serral at this BlizzCon but didn't become the best player in the world, that was Dark, winning the BlizzCon (after GSL S2 and GSL ST2). Well at least the best zerg in the world, we'll see if he stays on top on a more balanced patch but I believe he is more all rounded than Reynor[/QUOTE]
Defeating someone in one bo5 means surpassing them? That's new to me. Following this line of thought would lead to extremely funny situations in a game as volatile as Sc2 xd
On November 03 2019 19:50 parksonsc wrote: Inno said on his stream that gaming is no longer important to him like it was before, after his WESG win. Others Korean like Soo, Rogue also admit they got lazy and did not practice hard anymore (until important tournaments), and more often I see top Protoss in GSL got 10+ probes killed by a widowmine drop while nothing was happening anywhere else. I can't believe people still say that Koreans are not getting worse.
people don't want to admit the truth and want to hype up foreigners finally getting to the level of koreans.
Either pick one: the koreans have become bad and everything happened after KeSpa's demise is diminished so that Maru's never enough incensed 4xCode S isn't as impressive as repeatedly say it were or korean scene at its top, in its best player, is as competitive as ever and it has lost depth, which means top foreigners are more legit than you would like to admit. Again, you encourage others to ignore my posts then make very controversial ones yourself...
[/QUOTE]
A win against Showtime, Has, Special? You can hardly call that an achievement. At this point Serral has only done what Neeb has achieved before - surprise everyone. He has lost all tournaments where there are no restrictions. He's only won tournaments where half of it are circuit players.
Reynor has already tried Code S and got destroyed. Serral, full of excuses.
To be the best, you have to compete where the best players are found, no matter how you sugar-coat it.
Sure I'll give you that. WCS > winning 3 GSL Code S IN A ROW. Dream on![/QUOTE]
Serral suprised everyone and then he kept winning titles the way any top player is expected to: losing some tournament, winning some other. It's not like there is no competition, if you are the best you don't win every tournament everytime, that's not how Sc2 works.
Reynor advanced to the ro16 over classic and got narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner, Maru. You call that being destroyed?
To be the best, you have to be able to consistently beat the best ones when you get to face them.
Hah sure, it has to be that all of the Sc2 progamers were wrong when they called Serral the best and that the notoriously pro foreigner TL.net site committed a huge error when giving Serral player of the year 2018.
It's hilarious that none of the "expert EU Zergs" is doing any "Blizzcon analysis stream" like they were all doing after GSL vs TW. I guess becoz Serral didnt win it, or maybe they have no clue why do Dark's style work.
On November 03 2019 21:50 parksonsc wrote: It's hilarious that none of the "expert EU Zergs" is doing any "Blizzcon analysis stream" like they were all doing after GSL vs TW. I guess becoz Serral didnt win it, or maybe they have no clue why do Dark's style work.
Lambo did an analysis stream yesterday, if I do recall correctly.
Yes, Lambo did it. Also @topic : maybe couple of bo5's isn't making Reynor better then Serral but kid is close! I would like to see raise of Special, HeroMarine and at least 1 more protoss player. Can't stand all thiose zvzvzvz's at every WCS Finals.
Congratz to Dark even I don't like him. I cheered for EU duo, Reynor in particular and still think if he has beaten Serral he could beat Dark too. Maybe tired or Dark didn't show off his zvz up to finals. Hope next year we will have more equal number of KR vs Circuit and races in ro8.
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
INno is my fav' but i can't see how he looked stronger than Dark overall this year.
He won a series against serral, so he's the goat of 2019.
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
INno is my fav' but i can't see how he looked stronger than Dark overall this year.
He won a series against serral, so he's the goat of 2019.
You might have cared to read my answer before coming out with this low quality bait.
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
INno is my fav' but i can't see how he looked stronger than Dark overall this year.
He won a series against serral, so he's the goat of 2019.
You might have cared to read my answer before coming out with this low quality bait.
in the raynor serral series during the muta ling bane vs roach hydra lurker wars why did neither of the players ever transition into BL ? it just seemed quite counterintuitive to me that they would always opt to go for Ultra ling bane which was clearly inferior in straightup fights to lurker comps. I mean in that last game Serral went up to 7! Bases and had them saturated for a while how is that not enough time to make a worthwhile transition?
On November 04 2019 00:20 alpenrahm wrote: in the raynor serral series during the muta ling bane vs roach hydra lurker wars why did neither of the players ever transition into BL ? it just seemed quite counterintuitive to me that they would always opt to go for Ultra ling bane which was clearly inferior in straightup fights to lurker comps. I mean in that last game Serral went up to 7! Bases and had them saturated for a while how is that not enough time to make a worthwhile transition?
Brood lords aren't immune to abduct like the ultralisks are.
Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year
Gratz to Dark. So I guess one satisfactory thing about ZvZ finals is that you get to see a zerg lose to nydus-SH...
Was surprised to see: - a ZvZ final without Serral or Rogue in it :o - that a protoss actually made it to RO4. That blink DT play was a tournament highlight - ty Classic!
On November 04 2019 02:02 -KG- wrote: Gratz to Dark. So I guess one satisfactory thing about ZvZ finals is that you get to see a zerg lose to nydus-SH...
Was surprised to see: - a ZvZ final without Serral or Rogue in it :o - that a protoss actually made it to RO4. That blink DT play was a tournament highlight - ty Classic!
classic played out of his mind. this is essentially a meta where toss is borderline forced to do constant, rotating cheeses in pvz, which makes it incredibly hard to win multiple bo5s consecutively. smart zergs counter it by going for heavy low-tech army midgames so they can survive to lategame, which makes it hard to even cheese effectively. for once in history it was super impressive for the protoss to keep cheesing and winning
On November 04 2019 00:35 NinjaNight wrote: Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year
You need to add Innovation, soO, and Stats to that list. But yeah, Reynor really does seem to have a style that gives Serral problems.
On November 04 2019 00:35 NinjaNight wrote: Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year
You need to add Innovation, soO, and Stats to that list. But yeah, Reynor really does seem to have a style that gives Serral problems.
Dosen't he have a winning reccord against all of them? Also he currently on a 7-0 streak vs soO
Edit: oh he does have a losing reccord vs INno, but they are 2 and 2 in the last two years. Still they aren't especially "Kriptonite" as much as they are very good player vs whom he sometime loses.
Reynor is still bellow 50% vs Koreans and honestly he just got through herO and Trap in a broken matchup, it's much more surprising that he's doing thay well vs Serral in particular.
On November 04 2019 00:35 NinjaNight wrote: Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year
You need to add Innovation, soO, and Stats to that list. But yeah, Reynor really does seem to have a style that gives Serral problems.
Dosen't he have a winning reccord against all of them? Also he currently on a 7-0 streak vs soO
Edit: oh he does have a losing reccord vs INno, but they are 2 and 2 in the last two years. Still they aren't especially "Kriptonite" as much as they are very good player vs whom he sometime loses.
Reynor is still bellow 50% vs Koreans and honestly he just got through herO and Trap in a broken matchup, it's much more surprising that he's doing thay well vs Serral in particular.
It was more a comment to the "Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year" line...
On November 04 2019 00:35 NinjaNight wrote: Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year
You need to add Innovation, soO, and Stats to that list. But yeah, Reynor really does seem to have a style that gives Serral problems.
Dosen't he have a winning reccord against all of them?
He has a winning record against Reynor too. But Reynor taking the tough wins in epic matches in WCS Winter, Summer and Blizzcon sticks more with people than Serral destroying him in everything in-between.
On November 04 2019 00:45 Nakajin wrote: If the debate pivot into Serral vs Dark, does that mean we can finally have a Maru-Serral match?
Dark swept Maru and basically swept the guy who beat Serral.
Bring on Dark vs Serral-Maru archon
Speaking of Dark sweeping Maru, I looked at the map records of the global finals. ZvT had a 85.7% win rate in games (12-2). Juanito was the only terran to take any maps off of zerg. He won 2 games vs soO. One was on Disco Bloodbath and one was on Winter's Gate. The other match ups were way more even. One game difference in TvP (7-8), 61.5% wins for zerg vs protoss (32-20). It was not terrans' tournament this year. At least Maru got to be the last terran in yet another tournament or league. How many Ro8 have Maru been the last terran in now? How many times has it been some other terran?
On November 04 2019 00:45 Nakajin wrote: If the debate pivot into Serral vs Dark, does that mean we can finally have a Maru-Serral match?
Dark swept Maru and basically swept the guy who beat Serral.
Bring on Dark vs Serral-Maru archon
Speaking of Dark sweeping Maru, I looked at the map records of the global finals. ZvT had a 85.7% win rate in games (12-2). Juanito was the only terran to take any maps off of zerg. He won 2 games vs soO. One was on Disco Bloodbath and one was on Winter's Gate. The other match ups were way more even. One game difference in TvP (7-8), 61.5% wins for zerg vs protoss (32-20). It was not terrans' tournament this year. At least Maru got to be the last terran in yet another tournament or league. How many Ro8 have Maru been the last terran in now? How many times has it been some other terran?
This was the first time this year that Maru was the only T in the round of 8, but he was the best performing T in GSL S1 (first) and GSL S3 (semi). The rest of the time it was TY in ST 2 (second) and IEM Katowice (round of 12), Gumiho in ST 1 (second) and INno at WESG (first) and GSL S2 (round of 8)
TY and INno also both have a HSC final but Maru dosen't go to them.
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
INno is my fav' but i can't see how he looked stronger than Dark overall this year.
He won a series against serral, so he's the goat of 2019.
You might have cared to read my answer before coming out with this low quality bait.
Why would anyone care to read your posts?
So you answer to a comment replying to one of my posts, quoting my posts as well, with a pointless bait clearly referring to that post and then you pretend you didn't read said post of mine?
You are basically admitting to be either very superficial or a massive troll.
Feel free to ignore my posts entirely, if you answer to them without having read them you add nothing to any discussion.
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
Your first point: at points maybe the others sho me brighter. Consistently, averaged over the year? I disagree.
But I agree, it's hard to declare him unequivocally best since he didn't hit serral. But serrals fault not his. Weird spot like last year.
As for best player on average, Serral's retained this spot before yesterday; as for shining brighter, many shone more than Dark this year, at different times. Best player right now? It's possible, but debatable. Most accomplished player of 2019? With Blizzcon, he is.
Here we go again - can't resist to disagree Best player on average really probably is Dark this year so far. Let's compare his results with Serral's over the year:
Serral in WCS Winter EU: 2nd (after a sloppy round robin group before that) | Dark in GSL S1: semifinal (close defeat vs Classic) -> imo Dark comes out on top here since a Ro8 of GSL is significantly harder than a WCS Ro8 (as we've seen this blizzcon) -> Serral 0:1 Dark
Serral in IEM Katowice: Ro8 (close defeat vs soO, who won the tournament but played mediocre in group stages) | Dark in IEM Katowice: Ro4 (losing to weirdly on/off-switching supermode-Stats) -> Hard to give the edge to anyone of the two. Dark technically made it further but Serral's match vs soO easily could've gone the other way around. I consider this a draw. -> Serral 0:1 Dark
Serral and Dark in WESG: -> Serral beats Dark in Ro8, goes on to the finals where he barely gets beaten by Innovation -> Serral 1:1 Dark
---------> Dark in GSL ST1: elimination in first round vs an on point Gumiho (who fights his way to the finals)
Serral in WCS Spring: Champion | Dark in GSL S2: Champion -> Both are convincing champions. But GSL is still to be valued above WCS. Dark comes out on top. -> Serral 1:2 Dark
Serral in WCS Summer: 2nd | Dark in GSL S3: Ro4 -> I stand by my assessment: GSL Ro4 is harder to get to than WCS final. -> Serral 1:3 Dark
---------> Serral in Assembly Summer 2019: Ro4 Even if the roster of Assembly wasn't highest calibre and Serral's tournament path not the most impressive, he still showed dominance until meeting Stats who managed to beat him in a close match. Comparing this to Dark's GSL ST1 performance, Serral clearly comes out on top. -> Serral 2:3 Dark
Serral in GSL vs the World: Champion | Dark in GSL vs the World: elimination in the forst round vs an on point Elarzer (who fights his way to the finals) -> Serral 3:3 Dark
Serral in WCS Fall: Champion | Dark in GSL ST2: Champion -> both absolutely demolish their brackets. But GSL ST still features far more really tough players and Dark really took the hardest imaginable road (Maru, Stats, soO, TY) -> Serral 3:4 Dark
Both at Blizzcon: -> Serral 3:5 Dark
One could argue if the first-round eliminations of Dark aren't tainting his average. But he lost to finalist both times. Also Serral only had one single elimination tournament with potentially high calibre opponents in the first round. Thus he barely ever was in danger to get defeated early in any tournament. Another point of critique would be that perhaps results in tournaments in which they both participated should be valued higher than my assessment that GSL is harder than WCS. Thus one could reward those GSL Ro4>WCS 2nd-occurences with only a half point for Dark each. He still would come on top.
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
Your first point: at points maybe the others sho me brighter. Consistently, averaged over the year? I disagree.
But I agree, it's hard to declare him unequivocally best since he didn't hit serral. But serrals fault not his. Weird spot like last year.
As for best player on average, Serral's retained this spot before yesterday; as for shining brighter, many shone more than Dark this year, at different times. Best player right now? It's possible, but debatable. Most accomplished player of 2019? With Blizzcon, he is.
Here we go again - can't resist to disagree Best player on average really probably is Dark this year so far. Let's compare his results with Serral's over the year:
Serral in WCS Winter EU: 2nd (after a sloppy round robin group before that) | Dark in GSL S1: semifinal (close defeat vs Classic) -> imo Dark comes out on top here since a Ro8 of GSL is significantly harder than a WCS Ro8 (as we've seen this blizzcon) -> Serral 0:1 Dark
Serral in IEM Katowice: Ro8 (close defeat vs soO, who won the tournament but played mediocre in group stages) | Dark in IEM Katowice: Ro4 (losing to weirdly on/off-switching supermode-Stats) -> Hard to give the edge to anyone of the two. Dark technically made it further but Serral's match vs soO easily could've gone the other way around. I consider this a draw. -> Serral 0:1 Dark
Serral and Dark in WESG: -> Serral beats Dark in Ro8, goes on to the finals where he barely gets beaten by Innovation -> Serral 1:1 Dark
---------> Dark in GSL ST1: elimination in first round vs an on point Gumiho (who fights his way to the finals)
Serral in WCS Spring: Champion | Dark in GSL S2: Champion -> Both are convincing champions. But GSL is still to be valued above WCS. Dark comes out on top. -> Serral 1:2 Dark
Serral in WCS Summer: 2nd | Dark in GSL S3: Ro4 -> I stand by my assessment: GSL Ro4 is harder to get to than WCS final. -> Serral 1:3 Dark
---------> Serral in Assembly Summer 2019: Ro4 Even if the roster of Assembly wasn't highest calibre and Serral's tournament path not the most impressive, he still showed dominance until meeting Stats who managed to beat him in a close match. Comparing this to Dark's GSL ST1 performance, Serral clearly comes out on top. -> Serral 2:3 Dark
Serral in GSL vs the World: Champion | Dark in GSL vs the World: elimination in the forst round vs an on point Elarzer (who fights his way to the finals) -> Serral 3:3 Dark
Serral in WCS Fall: Champion | Dark in GSL ST2: Champion -> both absolutely demolish their brackets. But GSL ST still features far more really tough players and Dark really took the hardest imaginable road (Maru, Stats, soO, TY) -> Serral 3:4 Dark
Both at Blizzcon: -> Serral 3:5 Dark
One could argue if the first-round eliminations of Dark aren't tainting his average. But he lost to finalist both times. Also Serral only had one single elimination tournament with potentially high calibre opponents in the first round. Thus he barely ever was in danger to get defeated early in any tournament. Another point of critique would be that perhaps results in tournaments in which they both participated should be valued higher than my assessment that GSL is harder than WCS. Thus one could reward those GSL Ro4>WCS 2nd-occurences with only a half point for Dark each. He still would come on top.
Dark winning the first Korea WESG qualifier without dropping a map should be on here as well. There's a serious argument to be made that the Korea WESG qualifier is one of the hardest events of the year. Imo it only loses to IEM and the 3 Code S seasons. I know it's online but considering that they are playing for a spot at the second highest prize tournament of the year I don't think that matters.
On November 04 2019 05:19 Poopi wrote: Guys, Maru lost to the eventual winner of the tournament, that counts right? That's a super useful metric you know
If Maru had not lost to Dark he would for sure had beaten Reynor, and considering that herO almost beat Reynor but got beaten by Classic we have to assume he would have crush the Italien. So really, if we are honest with ourselves we have to accept that Serral is at best top 5.
On November 04 2019 00:35 NinjaNight wrote: Lol people said Serral has no kryptonite but clearly it's Reynor. So many times he has lost to him in major tournaments this year. Reynor single handedly killed Serral's 2019 year
Yeah Reynor has shown himself to be a really good player in this Blizzcon and I would say he is in the lower part of the top 10. Beating herO and Trap 3-2 shows me that he is a legitimately on par with high level Korean players. That said, I think many people thought that because Reynor's ZvZ fought on par with Serral's, he was almost as good at the matchup. In my view, Serral generally does unusually badly against Reynor. Reynor has a very good ZvZ but he has dropped series to Snute and Lambo this year and had a close series against Nerchio. He also lost very badly to Dark. In contrast, Serral generally beats Dark pretty badly and would most likely also win against Snute, Lambo and Nerchio in lopsided fashion.
When I saw the Blizzcon bracket, I thought Serral would beat soO and Reynor to make the finals but I was aware that even though it didn't look like it, he actually had a tough side of the bracket. soO and Reynor were probably the 6th and 7th weakest players in the ro8 (Trap was probably the weakest especially since there was mostly zerg in the ro8) but they both have a history of over-performing against Serral. I'm not sure whether to attribute them doing well against Serral to just randomness or to their play-style lining up well against Serral's.
It could be mentality as well. Serral made pretty odd decisions in game 2 against Reynor and lost in a pretty unusual way. In game 5, I can understand why he made ultras. He probably felt his ranged upgrades could not compete against Reynor and Broodlords would just get abducted. Nonetheless, I think he would have likely won (unless he took a pretty bad trade) if he just transitioned into hydras and lurkers as Dark did. Looking back, I think Dark probably benefited considerably from watching (if he did) the Serral vs Reynor series. It looked like he drew inspiration from some of the plays that Serral and Reynor made while correcting some of their errors and adding some of his own inspiration (swarm host play). He also seemed to use lurkers a lot more than he did in the past in that series.
Raynor beat herO who's not the top sharp herO we used to know and Trap who's worst MU is PvZ. While these names are big they're not Classic or STats and he managed to do this under very zerg friendly meta. Not shitting onhim, he's good, but not that good. And his ZvZ is for w/e reason good only vs WCS players. WTF, man?
On November 03 2019 22:09 Bombit wrote: Comparing to 2018, Blizzcon 2019 looks poor. Even celebration moment was without confetti rain...
well, we did have an entire 360 dome this time. that was freaking awesome. and the dome was filled throughout for the final match. it was freaking awesome.
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
Your first point: at points maybe the others sho me brighter. Consistently, averaged over the year? I disagree.
But I agree, it's hard to declare him unequivocally best since he didn't hit serral. But serrals fault not his. Weird spot like last year.
As for best player on average, Serral's retained this spot before yesterday; as for shining brighter, many shone more than Dark this year, at different times. Best player right now? It's possible, but debatable. Most accomplished player of 2019? With Blizzcon, he is.
Here we go again - can't resist to disagree Best player on average really probably is Dark this year so far. Let's compare his results with Serral's over the year:
Serral in WCS Winter EU: 2nd (after a sloppy round robin group before that) | Dark in GSL S1: semifinal (close defeat vs Classic) -> imo Dark comes out on top here since a Ro8 of GSL is significantly harder than a WCS Ro8 (as we've seen this blizzcon) -> Serral 0:1 Dark
Serral in IEM Katowice: Ro8 (close defeat vs soO, who won the tournament but played mediocre in group stages) | Dark in IEM Katowice: Ro4 (losing to weirdly on/off-switching supermode-Stats) -> Hard to give the edge to anyone of the two. Dark technically made it further but Serral's match vs soO easily could've gone the other way around. I consider this a draw. -> Serral 0:1 Dark
Serral and Dark in WESG: -> Serral beats Dark in Ro8, goes on to the finals where he barely gets beaten by Innovation -> Serral 1:1 Dark
---------> Dark in GSL ST1: elimination in first round vs an on point Gumiho (who fights his way to the finals)
Serral in WCS Spring: Champion | Dark in GSL S2: Champion -> Both are convincing champions. But GSL is still to be valued above WCS. Dark comes out on top. -> Serral 1:2 Dark
Serral in WCS Summer: 2nd | Dark in GSL S3: Ro4 -> I stand by my assessment: GSL Ro4 is harder to get to than WCS final. -> Serral 1:3 Dark
---------> Serral in Assembly Summer 2019: Ro4 Even if the roster of Assembly wasn't highest calibre and Serral's tournament path not the most impressive, he still showed dominance until meeting Stats who managed to beat him in a close match. Comparing this to Dark's GSL ST1 performance, Serral clearly comes out on top. -> Serral 2:3 Dark
Serral in GSL vs the World: Champion | Dark in GSL vs the World: elimination in the forst round vs an on point Elarzer (who fights his way to the finals) -> Serral 3:3 Dark
Serral in WCS Fall: Champion | Dark in GSL ST2: Champion -> both absolutely demolish their brackets. But GSL ST still features far more really tough players and Dark really took the hardest imaginable road (Maru, Stats, soO, TY) -> Serral 3:4 Dark
Both at Blizzcon: -> Serral 3:5 Dark
One could argue if the first-round eliminations of Dark aren't tainting his average. But he lost to finalist both times. Also Serral only had one single elimination tournament with potentially high calibre opponents in the first round. Thus he barely ever was in danger to get defeated early in any tournament. Another point of critique would be that perhaps results in tournaments in which they both participated should be valued higher than my assessment that GSL is harder than WCS. Thus one could reward those GSL Ro4>WCS 2nd-occurences with only a half point for Dark each. He still would come on top.
Hm, essentially here you are disagreeing on my statement that Serral was the best player on average before BlizzCon? Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I think that Dark is the most accomplished player in 2019, after BlizzCon.
On average, Serral progressed further than Dark in the tournaments we played; also, I would not completely ignore the fact Serral won HSC XIX.
We value the relative importance of WCS and GSL differently to the point that I think Serral was ahead of Dark before BlizzCon, but now Dark overtook him.
Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
Your first point: at points maybe the others sho me brighter. Consistently, averaged over the year? I disagree.
But I agree, it's hard to declare him unequivocally best since he didn't hit serral. But serrals fault not his. Weird spot like last year.
As for best player on average, Serral's retained this spot before yesterday; as for shining brighter, many shone more than Dark this year, at different times. Best player right now? It's possible, but debatable. Most accomplished player of 2019? With Blizzcon, he is.
Here we go again - can't resist to disagree Best player on average really probably is Dark this year so far. Let's compare his results with Serral's over the year:
Serral in WCS Winter EU: 2nd (after a sloppy round robin group before that) | Dark in GSL S1: semifinal (close defeat vs Classic) -> imo Dark comes out on top here since a Ro8 of GSL is significantly harder than a WCS Ro8 (as we've seen this blizzcon) -> Serral 0:1 Dark
Serral in IEM Katowice: Ro8 (close defeat vs soO, who won the tournament but played mediocre in group stages) | Dark in IEM Katowice: Ro4 (losing to weirdly on/off-switching supermode-Stats) -> Hard to give the edge to anyone of the two. Dark technically made it further but Serral's match vs soO easily could've gone the other way around. I consider this a draw. -> Serral 0:1 Dark
Serral and Dark in WESG: -> Serral beats Dark in Ro8, goes on to the finals where he barely gets beaten by Innovation -> Serral 1:1 Dark
---------> Dark in GSL ST1: elimination in first round vs an on point Gumiho (who fights his way to the finals)
Serral in WCS Spring: Champion | Dark in GSL S2: Champion -> Both are convincing champions. But GSL is still to be valued above WCS. Dark comes out on top. -> Serral 1:2 Dark
Serral in WCS Summer: 2nd | Dark in GSL S3: Ro4 -> I stand by my assessment: GSL Ro4 is harder to get to than WCS final. -> Serral 1:3 Dark
---------> Serral in Assembly Summer 2019: Ro4 Even if the roster of Assembly wasn't highest calibre and Serral's tournament path not the most impressive, he still showed dominance until meeting Stats who managed to beat him in a close match. Comparing this to Dark's GSL ST1 performance, Serral clearly comes out on top. -> Serral 2:3 Dark
Serral in GSL vs the World: Champion | Dark in GSL vs the World: elimination in the forst round vs an on point Elarzer (who fights his way to the finals) -> Serral 3:3 Dark
Serral in WCS Fall: Champion | Dark in GSL ST2: Champion -> both absolutely demolish their brackets. But GSL ST still features far more really tough players and Dark really took the hardest imaginable road (Maru, Stats, soO, TY) -> Serral 3:4 Dark
Both at Blizzcon: -> Serral 3:5 Dark
One could argue if the first-round eliminations of Dark aren't tainting his average. But he lost to finalist both times. Also Serral only had one single elimination tournament with potentially high calibre opponents in the first round. Thus he barely ever was in danger to get defeated early in any tournament. Another point of critique would be that perhaps results in tournaments in which they both participated should be valued higher than my assessment that GSL is harder than WCS. Thus one could reward those GSL Ro4>WCS 2nd-occurences with only a half point for Dark each. He still would come on top.
Hm, essentially here you are disagreeing on my statement that Serral was the best player on average before BlizzCon? Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I think that Dark is the most accomplished player in 2019, after BlizzCon.
On average, Serral progressed further than Dark in the tournaments we played; also, I would not completely ignore the fact Serral won HSC XIX.
We value the relative importance of WCS and GSL differently to the point that I think Serral was ahead of Dark before BlizzCon, but now Dark overtook him.
As far as I can see it, you never mentioned anything about "before BlizzCon". But considering this stance your conclusion is coherent with your logic. But even considering that we value the importance of WCS and GSL differently - until now I was under the impression that you'd still admit that GSL is harder overall than WCS, or am I wrong? So, even if we make a draw out of WCS 2nd and GSL Ro4, they still would've been at least on par before Blizzcon.
So foreigners made it to the finals twice in a row and showed decent matchups against the Koreans. So can we please get rid of that stupid region lock?
On November 04 2019 05:41 deacon.frost wrote: Raynor beat herO who's not the top sharp herO we used to know and Trap who's worst MU is PvZ. While these names are big they're not Classic or STats and he managed to do this under very zerg friendly meta. Not shitting onhim, he's good, but not that good. And his ZvZ is for w/e reason good only vs WCS players. WTF, man?
Classic and Stats are both not the same players they once were. Stats was quite bad this year compared to last year
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Yup Serral is still the SC2 Goat. But Dark is definitely player of the year for 2019
And Maru well.. exposed again for what most of us already know. Average Korean who peaked during the broken proxy meta
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Yup Serral is still the SC2 Goat. But Dark is definitely player of the year for 2019
And Maru well.. exposed again for what most of us already know. Average Korean who peaked during the broken proxy meta
How can Serral be the Goat if he wasn't the greatest in one of his only 2 year he had success... Most dominant is one thing, but lets wait a bit for GOAT
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
Your first point: at points maybe the others sho me brighter. Consistently, averaged over the year? I disagree.
But I agree, it's hard to declare him unequivocally best since he didn't hit serral. But serrals fault not his. Weird spot like last year.
As for best player on average, Serral's retained this spot before yesterday; as for shining brighter, many shone more than Dark this year, at different times. Best player right now? It's possible, but debatable. Most accomplished player of 2019? With Blizzcon, he is.
Here we go again - can't resist to disagree Best player on average really probably is Dark this year so far. Let's compare his results with Serral's over the year:
Serral in WCS Winter EU: 2nd (after a sloppy round robin group before that) | Dark in GSL S1: semifinal (close defeat vs Classic) -> imo Dark comes out on top here since a Ro8 of GSL is significantly harder than a WCS Ro8 (as we've seen this blizzcon) -> Serral 0:1 Dark
Serral in IEM Katowice: Ro8 (close defeat vs soO, who won the tournament but played mediocre in group stages) | Dark in IEM Katowice: Ro4 (losing to weirdly on/off-switching supermode-Stats) -> Hard to give the edge to anyone of the two. Dark technically made it further but Serral's match vs soO easily could've gone the other way around. I consider this a draw. -> Serral 0:1 Dark
Serral and Dark in WESG: -> Serral beats Dark in Ro8, goes on to the finals where he barely gets beaten by Innovation -> Serral 1:1 Dark
---------> Dark in GSL ST1: elimination in first round vs an on point Gumiho (who fights his way to the finals)
Serral in WCS Spring: Champion | Dark in GSL S2: Champion -> Both are convincing champions. But GSL is still to be valued above WCS. Dark comes out on top. -> Serral 1:2 Dark
Serral in WCS Summer: 2nd | Dark in GSL S3: Ro4 -> I stand by my assessment: GSL Ro4 is harder to get to than WCS final. -> Serral 1:3 Dark
---------> Serral in Assembly Summer 2019: Ro4 Even if the roster of Assembly wasn't highest calibre and Serral's tournament path not the most impressive, he still showed dominance until meeting Stats who managed to beat him in a close match. Comparing this to Dark's GSL ST1 performance, Serral clearly comes out on top. -> Serral 2:3 Dark
Serral in GSL vs the World: Champion | Dark in GSL vs the World: elimination in the forst round vs an on point Elarzer (who fights his way to the finals) -> Serral 3:3 Dark
Serral in WCS Fall: Champion | Dark in GSL ST2: Champion -> both absolutely demolish their brackets. But GSL ST still features far more really tough players and Dark really took the hardest imaginable road (Maru, Stats, soO, TY) -> Serral 3:4 Dark
Both at Blizzcon: -> Serral 3:5 Dark
One could argue if the first-round eliminations of Dark aren't tainting his average. But he lost to finalist both times. Also Serral only had one single elimination tournament with potentially high calibre opponents in the first round. Thus he barely ever was in danger to get defeated early in any tournament. Another point of critique would be that perhaps results in tournaments in which they both participated should be valued higher than my assessment that GSL is harder than WCS. Thus one could reward those GSL Ro4>WCS 2nd-occurences with only a half point for Dark each. He still would come on top.
Hm, essentially here you are disagreeing on my statement that Serral was the best player on average before BlizzCon? Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I think that Dark is the most accomplished player in 2019, after BlizzCon.
On average, Serral progressed further than Dark in the tournaments we played; also, I would not completely ignore the fact Serral won HSC XIX.
We value the relative importance of WCS and GSL differently to the point that I think Serral was ahead of Dark before BlizzCon, but now Dark overtook him.
As far as I can see it, you never mentioned anything about "before BlizzCon". But considering this stance your conclusion is coherent with your logic. But even considering that we value the importance of WCS and GSL differently - until now I was under the impression that you'd still admit that GSL is harder overall than WCS, or am I wrong? So, even if we make a draw out of WCS 2nd and GSL Ro4, they still would've been at least on par before Blizzcon.
And yeah, sorry about HSC - I missed that one.
BlizzCon took place two days ago, when I wrote "before yesterday" I was saying "before BlizzCon's ro8 was played".
You are right, GSL is harder than WCS so that we can even out WCS finals and GSL semifinals; it's HSC that was making me think Serral had the better year for me, but BlizzCon is by far more relevant.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Yup Serral is still the SC2 Goat. But Dark is definitely player of the year for 2019
And Maru well.. exposed again for what most of us already know. Average Korean who peaked during the broken proxy meta
You need to check his 4 titles again, they weren't as proxyu heavy as you haters are saying.
On November 04 2019 06:50 yeunk wrote: So foreigners made it to the finals twice in a row and showed decent matchups against the Koreans. So can we please get rid of that stupid region lock?
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Yup Serral is still the SC2 Goat. But Dark is definitely player of the year for 2019
And Maru well.. exposed again for what most of us already know. Average Korean who peaked during the broken proxy meta
How can Serral be the Goat if he wasn't the greatest in one of his only 2 year he had success... Most dominant is one thing, but lets wait a bit for GOAT
Technically you could be the GOAT, and by far, without being the best in any of the years of your career. It's true, however, that Serral is not the GOAT; he needs a couple of major international successes before he can have a shot at the title.
I do not agree at all on the fact that Serral is barely top5 at the moment; there is no one who would be favored against him in a series(not Reynor who defeated him this time, not Dark and Rogue, most likely not Maru) and he is extremely good, if not the best, in all of Zerg's matchup. Serral lost a tournament like many favourites before him, that doesn't make him weaker.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Yup Serral is still the SC2 Goat. But Dark is definitely player of the year for 2019
And Maru well.. exposed again for what most of us already know. Average Korean who peaked during the broken proxy meta
How can Serral be the Goat if he wasn't the greatest in one of his only 2 year he had success... Most dominant is one thing, but lets wait a bit for GOAT
I do not agree at all on the fact that Serral is barely top5 at the moment; there is no one who would be favored against him in a series(not Reynor who defeated him this time, not Dark and Rogue, most likely not Maru) and he is extremely good, if not the best, in all of Zerg's matchup.
That one was a joke
I should remember to put smiley, Internet and irony don't go togheter
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
Also Mvp lost a GSL to Life when he was 15, and he was pretty good.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
Why wasn't it insane? Topped GSL, won Blizzcon, made lotv history, and most importantly displayed unparalleled skill in the later half of the year. What is insane to you?
The "favorable meta" is overblown. Innovation's peak occurred during 2017's Terran-favored meta. Does it take anything away from him?
When serral won his blizzcon Zerg was leading race as per aligulac. Favorable meta?
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
Are you for real? First of all, Reynor reached ro16 the first time he tried to play in Code S; Dark beating him in the finals means that he deserved to win BlizzCon, you are reading way too much into it.
Dark in 2019 lost as #1 seed in GSL to the #8 seed in WCS, he was eliminated in the first round at Super Tournament 1 earlier this year. When soO beat Serral, Dark was losing to Stats; when Inno defeated Serral, Serral himself had eliminated Dark. You are just presenting facts the wrong way here.
Dark was having constantly good results during the whole year before becoming truly scary in the recent times. Serral may or may not be the best player in the world at the moment, one defeat does not change that; Classic beating Serral? He lost 3-1 last time, Serral 3-0d Stats last week... I would not bet on it.
Out of all the highest peaks in LoTV, Dark's is actually the least impressive if you look at actual results without random hype. It also took place in a moment when ZvP is broken, something that you have been(legitimately) screaming for weeks.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
Why wasn't it insane? Topped GSL, won Blizzcon, made lotv history, and most importantly displayed unparalleled skill in the later half of the year. What is insane to you?
The "favorable meta" is overblown. Innovation's peak occurred during 2017's Terran-favored meta. Does it take anything away from him?
When serral won his blizzcon Zerg was leading race as per aligulac. Favorable meta?
He won 2 tournament + Blizzcon, I mean it's a great year but it's not as good a year as Maru-Serral 2018 or Mvp 2011 and on par with INno 2017 or Zest 2014 (if you count Katowice into it).
Also Mvp lost a GSL to Life when he was 15, and he was pretty good.
That was HotS
I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
On November 04 2019 08:23 Fango wrote: Also what are the odds Reynor becomes the next Creator
I'm looking forward to watching him stream alone at home during the downtime of Blizzcon 2022
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
That Game 5 between Classic and Rogue will forever go down in history. Anyone/Everyone who watched it will be remembering that crazy strategy.
Not to get into the argument of how silly the current 'balance' is, it was really sad to watch Serral lose in Game 5 against Reynor after being technically ahead in supply. That game showcased how 'bad' Ultras are.
Here's to hoping 2020 will be a better year for SC2. Perhaps the upcoming patch will help change the meta a bit and make things interesting again. Late 2019 saw a heavy use of the nydus play which was pretty disgusting to watch since it carried no real 'risk' to the Zerg player going Nydus.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Yup Serral is still the SC2 Goat. But Dark is definitely player of the year for 2019
And Maru well.. exposed again for what most of us already know. Average Korean who peaked during the broken proxy meta
You need to check his 4 titles again, they weren't as proxyu heavy as you haters are saying.
It wasn’t all proxy. But will always be known as the cancer proxy era. Thank god sOs embarrassed Maru at blizzcon and ended that nonsense. Quite poetic since he gave Maru this build, only fitting he ended it himself
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
Are you for real? First of all, Reynor reached ro16 the first time he tried to play in Code S; Dark beating him in the finals means that he deserved to win BlizzCon, you are reading way too much into it.
Dark in 2019 lost as #1 seed in GSL to the #8 seed in WCS, he was eliminated in the first round at Super Tournament 1 earlier this year. When soO beat Serral, Dark was losing to Stats; when Inno defeated Serral, Serral himself had eliminated Dark. You are just presenting facts the wrong way here.
Dark was having constantly good results during the whole year before becoming truly scary in the recent times. Serral may or may not be the best player in the world at the moment, one defeat does not change that; Classic beating Serral? He lost 3-1 last time, Serral 3-0d Stats last week... I would not bet on it.
Out of all the highest peaks in LoTV, Dark's is actually the least impressive if you look at actual results without random hype. It also took place in a moment when ZvP is broken, something that you have been(legitimately) screaming for weeks.
Youre right about reynor. My error.
I already said that the level of play he displayed past the early to mid year was on another level. When Dark started firing on all cylinders he was destroying stats, inno, maru, ty. Probably serral too but serral doesnt play in the same circuit so they never met.
The one anomaly is the loss to elazer but to me that doesnt mean much since Dark plays in GSL and has won the big tournaments there, unlike someone like serral who gets to play in WCS and yet still regularly loses to a player like reynor.
Classic's play in blizzcon was better than stats' play in blizzcon and classic's play in gsl vs the world. So my money would be on classic assuming he brings the same form.
It's not random hype. It's actually watching the games, seeing the immense skill displayed, regardless of the meta, and considering that along with the trophies he's won.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
Grats 2019 Dark winning blizzcon and Tier B Gsl
Wonder how he does in Tier A WCS? I guess not very well since Serral mop the floor with him everytime they play each other
Dark probably will struggle to beat Elazer as well is my guess. Since Elazer embarrassed him at blizzcon as well
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Whatever jjakji then if you prefer. 17-18 is a somewhat young, but perfectly reasonable age to be great at Starcraft.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Whatever jjakji then if you prefer. 17-18 is a somewhat young, but perfectly reasonable age to be great at Starcraft.
hold up I didn't say reynor is not great at starcraft. He is no doubt very talented.
reynor beats serral (often too), and then loses to dark in a ridiculously one-sided affair. And dark also manhandles the best players of the other races too in by far the most difficult starcraft circuit in the world.. Where is the case for serral being better than dark?
Honestly, i do feel a bit salty we did not get Serral vs Dark for finals because said frankly, no matter the score it could not be worse than the series we did get instead.
But we can only blame Serral for that, losing that game 5 in the manner he lost it is something to be remembered.
Right now, I think Dark is a bit stronger than Serral. He is probably stronger in ZvT as I don't think Serral would go 6-1 against Maru and go 7-2 against TY like Dark has over the past few months. In ZvP I would say they're around even as they both decisively beat Stats and Classic over the past few months. In ZvZ, Serral is probably stronger but Dark going 4-1 against Reynor puts that into question.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Whatever jjakji then if you prefer. 17-18 is a somewhat young, but perfectly reasonable age to be great at Starcraft.
hold up I didn't say reynor is not great at starcraft. He is no doubt very talented.
reynor beats serral (often too), and then loses to dark in a ridiculously one-sided affair. And dark also manhandles the best players of the other races too in by far the most difficult starcraft circuit in the world.. Where is the case for serral being better than dark?
Head to head? Serral steamrolled Dark the last three times they met. Transitivity is not granted(Serral 3-0 soO, Dark 3-2 soO, how would you explain that?) and, most importantly, if you look at Dark's ZvZ record, the exception is actually him nomatching Reynor no more than him losing 2-3 to Elazer. Dark 1-4 Rogue, do you remember? Yes, he decisively defeated Reynor but to say he's stronger than Serral in the matchup is a veery long shot.
What is true is that Dark has recently looked great and won the last two tournaments(groupstage excluded) in a dominating fashion, he probably is the one whose shape is the best right now; this, in addiction to his good results throughout the year, make him the most accomplished player in 2019. I would not go much further than that, your claims are a bit sensationalistic.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Whatever jjakji then if you prefer. 17-18 is a somewhat young, but perfectly reasonable age to be great at Starcraft.
hold up I didn't say reynor is not great at starcraft. He is no doubt very talented.
reynor beats serral (often too), and then loses to dark in a ridiculously one-sided affair. And dark also manhandles the best players of the other races too in by far the most difficult starcraft circuit in the world.. Where is the case for serral being better than dark?
You said that the best player doesn't lose "to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie [...] on the biggest stage" I'm just saying it's perfectly normal for some of the best in the world to lose to 17 years old. I presented some example of great 15-18 years old players, you said he's different cause he isn't as great as those, then I said jjakji cause he did win a GSL at 17(or 18?).
I don't know where you picked up that I'm saying Serral is better than Dark
On November 04 2019 09:58 Kertorak wrote: Isnt this a spoiler thread and title? Why do we see this. I thought its not allowed. Sorry If I am not so experienced here, just reading sometimes.
So this ought to be a feedback to TL community/moderators, maybe. Oh just respect the anti-spoiler-fans/noobs and their feedback, no qq.
There is a "Hide spoilers" button under the pictures on the main page, if you select it you shouldn't see results the next time you come on the website.
I think people underestimate Reynor a lot. And yes, his opponents didn't play very well but neither did he, and he still reached the finals. He defeated herO (who was considered the best or second best PvZ player right before Blizzcon by many) and Trap (who's not great at PvZ, but still the best korean protoss the whole year).
Yeah, I know, zerg imba etc, but at the end of the day there were just three zergs in the semis: there was no Rogue, no Elazer, and no other kr, eu or na zergs. His record against koreans isn't amazing (I'm just talking about offline events here), but in an year and a half, since he joined the GSL/Circuit in july 2018, he lost to Stats, Classic, Gumiho, Maru, Creator, Cure, Dark and Fantasy, and he won against Classic, PartinG, herO, Trap, INnoVation, Solar, Creator, Impact and Ryung.
His stats since then in offline events vs koreans are 29 - 32 in maps, and 10-11 in matches, which isn't Serral level stats, but given the opponents he played against isn't that bad either. In the meantime, he defeated Serral in WCS finals 2 times, plus in the Blizzcon semis, while defeating pretty much everybody else in the Circuit (which I know it wont mean much to somebody, but it's still impressive).
I'm obviously not talking about any GOAT, or best foreigner or whatever, but other than Maru, Serral and maybe Stats and Dark too (Dark based on numbers, but it's just one series so I'm not entirely convinced), I don't think there's somebody else "on another level" or clearly favored against Reynor, either korean or not korean.
On November 04 2019 09:58 Kertorak wrote: Isnt this a spoiler thread and title? Why do we see this. I thought its not allowed. Sorry If I am not so experienced here, just reading sometimes.
So this ought to be a feedback to TL community/moderators, maybe. Oh just respect the anti-spoiler-fans/noobs and their feedback, no qq.
Lol, how long has it been since you have been on this site?
It’s been like 4 years (if not longer) since “spoilers” on the main page were commonplace and the “hide spoilers” option was added.
It seems to me that Reynor has kind of a Life aura. He finds gaps in the play of players known for perfection and he kind of adapts to the skill displayed in the match. Life and Taeja were such players: they somehow had close matches vs mediocre players and then also managed to beat the best of the best. Judging from their play vs lesser players one wouldn't have thought that they are top 10 GOAT material. This is why I don't think that the argument "his opponents played very bad" is useful.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Why is there still argument about serral vs dark? What if it was serral vs reynor in the finals instead and reynor won? will there be arguments about “reynor got lucky, if it was dark he would of lost”. If you are truly a GOAT then u should prove it by winning the tournament regardless of which opponents ur placed against and overcome any “bad bracket luck” which is a dumb excuse.
On November 04 2019 22:04 Obamarauder wrote: Why is there still argument about serral vs dark? What if it was serral vs reynor in the finals instead and reynor won? will there be arguments about “reynor got lucky, if it was dark he would of lost”. If you are truly a GOAT then u should prove it by winning the tournament regardless of which opponents ur placed against and overcome any “bad bracket luck” which is a dumb excuse.
First of all, the GOAT doesn't have to win every tournament; that title refers to amassing a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career; Serral is still not close to that title, even if is for sure one of the greats of Sc2.
Coming to Serral vs Dark, I don't see people speaking of bad bracket luck; the point is that Serral had the game won, threw terribly hard and Reynor went on to deliver a subpar performance in the finals. Retrospectively, it's almost granted that Serral vs Dark would have been a much more entertaining series, not to mention the fact #1 WCS vs #1 KR would have been a better narrative; Dark himself said he would have liked to face Serral(to further legitimate his claim of being the best in the world; I think Serral would have prevailed, but we will never know).
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
There is no point in posting them. There is a general consensus we all know about it
On November 03 2019 07:14 Vindicare605 wrote: If it had to be a ZvZ final, I'm glad Dark dominated it. He's looked like the strongest player of 2019 even before all of the dumb stuff.
Makes Elazer's win in GSL vs the World all the more hilarious though lol.
Dark was constantly good this year but he was far from looking the best; soO, Inno, Classic, Maru, Stats, Serral, Rogue all looked stronger than Dark in 2019. Dark looked unstoppable yesterday and, before, at Super Tournament.
I am still convinced he is not the best current player(debatable), but he has had the best accomplishment this year.
Your first point: at points maybe the others sho me brighter. Consistently, averaged over the year? I disagree.
But I agree, it's hard to declare him unequivocally best since he didn't hit serral. But serrals fault not his. Weird spot like last year.
As for best player on average, Serral's retained this spot before yesterday; as for shining brighter, many shone more than Dark this year, at different times. Best player right now? It's possible, but debatable. Most accomplished player of 2019? With Blizzcon, he is.
Here we go again - can't resist to disagree Best player on average really probably is Dark this year so far. Let's compare his results with Serral's over the year:
Serral in WCS Winter EU: 2nd (after a sloppy round robin group before that) | Dark in GSL S1: semifinal (close defeat vs Classic) -> imo Dark comes out on top here since a Ro8 of GSL is significantly harder than a WCS Ro8 (as we've seen this blizzcon) -> Serral 0:1 Dark
Serral in IEM Katowice: Ro8 (close defeat vs soO, who won the tournament but played mediocre in group stages) | Dark in IEM Katowice: Ro4 (losing to weirdly on/off-switching supermode-Stats) -> Hard to give the edge to anyone of the two. Dark technically made it further but Serral's match vs soO easily could've gone the other way around. I consider this a draw. -> Serral 0:1 Dark
Serral and Dark in WESG: -> Serral beats Dark in Ro8, goes on to the finals where he barely gets beaten by Innovation -> Serral 1:1 Dark
---------> Dark in GSL ST1: elimination in first round vs an on point Gumiho (who fights his way to the finals)
Serral in WCS Spring: Champion | Dark in GSL S2: Champion -> Both are convincing champions. But GSL is still to be valued above WCS. Dark comes out on top. -> Serral 1:2 Dark
Serral in WCS Summer: 2nd | Dark in GSL S3: Ro4 -> I stand by my assessment: GSL Ro4 is harder to get to than WCS final. -> Serral 1:3 Dark
---------> Serral in Assembly Summer 2019: Ro4 Even if the roster of Assembly wasn't highest calibre and Serral's tournament path not the most impressive, he still showed dominance until meeting Stats who managed to beat him in a close match. Comparing this to Dark's GSL ST1 performance, Serral clearly comes out on top. -> Serral 2:3 Dark
Serral in GSL vs the World: Champion | Dark in GSL vs the World: elimination in the forst round vs an on point Elarzer (who fights his way to the finals) -> Serral 3:3 Dark
Serral in WCS Fall: Champion | Dark in GSL ST2: Champion -> both absolutely demolish their brackets. But GSL ST still features far more really tough players and Dark really took the hardest imaginable road (Maru, Stats, soO, TY) -> Serral 3:4 Dark
Both at Blizzcon: -> Serral 3:5 Dark
One could argue if the first-round eliminations of Dark aren't tainting his average. But he lost to finalist both times. Also Serral only had one single elimination tournament with potentially high calibre opponents in the first round. Thus he barely ever was in danger to get defeated early in any tournament. Another point of critique would be that perhaps results in tournaments in which they both participated should be valued higher than my assessment that GSL is harder than WCS. Thus one could reward those GSL Ro4>WCS 2nd-occurences with only a half point for Dark each. He still would come on top.
This is a quality post which I suspect most will care to read.
Somebody capable of getting into semi-finals of Code S can probably achieve getting into all the WCS finals.
A Code S champion can win all the WCS, provided that Zerg is not broken. One only needs to watch out for 1 player.
The results of Blizzcon, IEM, WESG, Homestory etc etc backs this up. Only couple (mostly just 1) of circuit players can get past (or get into) ro8.
Poor Dark, the thread of his triumph is mostly about Serral and Maru! Great performance the second half of this year from the guy.
He’s the most aggressive and tricky of the real S tier Zerg players and the current nydus really has suited him and his style a lot. When it’s inevitably nerfed I don’t see him falling off at all, but this meta really suited his strengths, kind of how herO was always a good player but the blink era suited him and his style.
Excited for the next year, I think it’ll be a shootout between Serral and Dark for the top Zerg slot if they’re motivated, should be exciting. I see those two as the two with no particular weaknesses and can play any variant of Zerg, but Serral’s preference is for defensive play and Dark’s more aggressive in temperament.
Rogue and soO are also great players when they’re on point, but they’re not quite as rounded.
Excited to see what Reynor brings, must be a huge lift of a mental barrier to have a decent Blizzcon run, hopefully he brings something great to Katowice. Still quite a way from being better than Serral, but definitely has that potential.
My main hope for this year is that the Ro32/16 calibre GSL players, especially the returning ones really step up their game. They have to, we’re hitting the point where GSL is losing too many top players and the quality is going to drop. Already the Ro32 is clearly not at the standards of the Ro16 but that could creep down further.
Here’s to another year of Starcraft and arguing in LR threads folks!
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
Appealing to a fake consensus, now i have seen it all!
On November 04 2019 22:04 Obamarauder wrote: Why is there still argument about serral vs dark? What if it was serral vs reynor in the finals instead and reynor won? will there be arguments about “reynor got lucky, if it was dark he would of lost”. If you are truly a GOAT then u should prove it by winning the tournament regardless of which opponents ur placed against and overcome any “bad bracket luck” which is a dumb excuse.
First of all, the GOAT doesn't have to win every tournament; that title refers to amassing a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career; Serral is still not close to that title, even if is for sure one of the greats of Sc2.
Coming to Serral vs Dark, I don't see people speaking of bad bracket luck; the point is that Serral had the game won, threw terribly hard and Reynor went on to deliver a subpar performance in the finals. Retrospectively, it's almost granted that Serral vs Dark would have been a much more entertaining series, not to mention the fact #1 WCS vs #1 KR would have been a better narrative; Dark himself said he would have liked to face Serral(to further legitimate his claim of being the best in the world; I think Serral would have prevailed, but we will never know).
Fact: Serral threw terribly hard
Fan Fiction: Serral vs Dark would have been a much more entertaining series... better narrative nonsense. As if WCS points is equal to KR points.
First of all, the GOAT doesn't have to win every tournament; that title refers to amassing a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career; Serral is still not close to that title, even if is for sure one of the greats of Sc2.
Oh nice, I think we are in agreement this time. I wonder who has amassed a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career?
100% agree, and I'm surprised that the #1 Serral fan says that Serral is not even close.
4 GSL in-a-row I think is second to none, and the hardest to match. That is on top of the only player to have won all the Korean star leagues, OSL, SSL, GSL. Unbelievable record in ProLeague + MVP title and being the Ace player bringing his team Championships. The only player in Starcraft2 to achieve Double Royal Road (SSL and OSL); the only other player to have done this is BoxeR in Broodwar. WESG win. Lots of top 4 finish. TY as rival. The fourth race.
I have to point out however, a championship is exponentially more prestigious result than a semi-finals finish. Or even a second place finish; unless you do it multiple times in Code S.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
The issue I was against was that Maru used the proxy meta to win all them titles. This is S1 IIRC. So you proved Maru used few proxy games in S1, how about S2, 3 or S1?
On November 04 2019 07:57 BerserkSword wrote: [quote]
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
Appealing to a fake consensus, now i have seen it all!
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven...
All the VODs are in youtube, feel free to post more than two of him using the broken raven from any of his GSL runs. Right now you're churning six starleague down to two games.
As far as proxies go, the key word is heavily, sure he proxies the odd game here and there, but he only went hard in 2018 S3. Proxying once or twice every few series (when it wasn't even meta or proxy) is a far cry from "abusing imba proxies". Like I said, he won two GSLs before proxies were meta, and won the season after it without doing it once.
Shaking up builds is something good players do when they aren't reliant on one particular strategy btw.
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven...
All the VODs are in youtube, feel free to post more than two of him using the broken raven from any of his GSL runs. Right now you're churning six starleague down to two games.
As far as proxies go, the key word is heavily, sure he proxies the odd game here and there, but he only went hard in 2018 S3. Proxying once or twice every few series (when it wasn't even meta or proxy) is a far cry from "abusing imba proxies". Like I said, he won two GSLs before proxies were meta, and won the season after it without doing it once.
Shaking up builds is something good players do when they aren't reliant on one particular strategy btw.
Nice try but it's useless as they believe Maru won only by playing proxies (and nobody was able to hardcounter it at the same time! )
Raven wasn’t that broken either by the way (KR zergs seemed to manage it quite well). Not a super interesting strategy because turtling to such units is not very terran-esque, but I find odd how quickly they patch such strategies compared to Broodlord / infestor or the nydus situation.
As far as the proxies count of Maru, iirc Fango or Charoisaur pulled the data and indeed it was mostly 2018 GSL S3 (TvP was quite hard without the proxy that period of time).
Also, I don’t really get why the troll is bringing TvT proxy in the discussion since his argument seems to be that Maru beat other races with his proxies, in mirror both players can use the strategy, being too strong or not. But I guess logic and trolls don’t go too well together.
On November 04 2019 07:57 BerserkSword wrote: [quote]
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
The issue I was against was that Maru used the proxy meta to win all them titles. This is S1 IIRC. So you proved Maru used few proxy games in S1, how about S2, 3 or S1?
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
Appealing to a fake consensus, now i have seen it all!
He has to, has nothing else
Feel Free to name 3 GSL Series that he didn't proxy in any.
Like I said, the general consensus is Maru was a proxy GSL boy
A few minority Maru Fan posters won't change that =)
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
The issue I was against was that Maru used the proxy meta to win all them titles. This is S1 IIRC. So you proved Maru used few proxy games in S1, how about S2, 3 or S1?
On November 04 2019 23:40 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2019 23:35 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 21:30 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 20:42 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 16:52 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 08:55 BerserkSword wrote:
On November 04 2019 08:18 Fango wrote:
On November 04 2019 08:10 BerserkSword wrote: [quote] Maru's 4 GSLs heavily involved proxy and broken raven. Favorable meta?
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
Appealing to a fake consensus, now i have seen it all!
He has to, has nothing else
Feel Free to name 3 GSL Series that he didn't proxy in any.
Like I said, the general consensus is Maru was a proxy GSL boy
A few minority Maru Fan posters won't change that =)
Facts baby
Jesus christ that ain't fact
Just go back to his GSL runs, rewatch the start of each games, create a chart of the oppening then give us that. It's not rocket science ffs
On November 04 2019 06:18 MockHamill wrote: Serral is still the best player on the planet. Dark is probably number two though. Reynor is a top 10 player who for some reason is especially good vs Serral.
Serral is not the best player in the world.
Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated.
Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway
Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode.
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven...
All the VODs are in youtube, feel free to post more than two of him using the broken raven from any of his GSL runs. Right now you're churning six starleague down to two games.
As far as proxies go, the key word is heavily, sure he proxies the odd game here and there, but he only went hard in 2018 S3. Proxying once or twice every few series (when it wasn't even meta or proxy) is a far cry from "abusing imba proxies". Like I said, he won two GSLs before proxies were meta, and won the season after it without doing it once.
Shaking up builds is something good players do when they aren't reliant on one particular strategy btw.
Then why do people complain about the infestor/BL late game? Less than 25% of the games even get to that point at the highest level.
Yet everyone complains and acts like every game is infestor/BL, since it's overused meme since WOL
Guess you also think Dark was dominated this year because he abused this strategy right?
On November 04 2019 08:10 BerserkSword wrote: [quote] Maru's 4 GSLs heavily involved proxy and broken raven. Favorable meta?
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
The issue I was against was that Maru used the proxy meta to win all them titles. This is S1 IIRC. So you proved Maru used few proxy games in S1, how about S2, 3 or S1?
On November 04 2019 23:40 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2019 23:35 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 21:30 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 20:42 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 16:52 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 08:55 BerserkSword wrote:
On November 04 2019 08:18 Fango wrote: [quote] "heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
Appealing to a fake consensus, now i have seen it all!
He has to, has nothing else
Feel Free to name 3 GSL Series that he didn't proxy in any.
Like I said, the general consensus is Maru was a proxy GSL boy
A few minority Maru Fan posters won't change that =)
Facts baby
Jesus christ that ain't fact
Just go back to his GSL runs, rewatch the start of each games, create a chart of the oppening then give us that. It's not rocket science ffs
Like I said, it's the general consensus and most people will always remember Maru's run as the proxy meta.
I'll let you create a chart and let us know which series he did not proxy vs the ones he did. Not rocket science.
Not sure why you and the rest of the Maru fans here are so butthurt over this comment?
We don't think Maru was a trash player, it's just a general consensus he rose to fame for his proxy meta within the SC2 Community
On November 04 2019 08:18 Fango wrote: [quote] "heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
The issue I was against was that Maru used the proxy meta to win all them titles. This is S1 IIRC. So you proved Maru used few proxy games in S1, how about S2, 3 or S1?
On November 04 2019 23:40 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2019 23:35 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 21:30 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 20:42 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 16:52 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 08:55 BerserkSword wrote: [quote]
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
[quote]
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
Appealing to a fake consensus, now i have seen it all!
He has to, has nothing else
Feel Free to name 3 GSL Series that he didn't proxy in any.
Like I said, the general consensus is Maru was a proxy GSL boy
A few minority Maru Fan posters won't change that =)
Facts baby
Jesus christ that ain't fact
Just go back to his GSL runs, rewatch the start of each games, create a chart of the oppening then give us that. It's not rocket science ffs
Like I said, it's the general consensus and most people will always remember Maru's run as the proxy meta.
I'll let you create a chart and let us know which series he did not proxy vs the ones he did. Not rocket science.
On November 04 2019 08:55 BerserkSword wrote: [quote]
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
[quote]
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
The issue I was against was that Maru used the proxy meta to win all them titles. This is S1 IIRC. So you proved Maru used few proxy games in S1, how about S2, 3 or S1?
On November 04 2019 23:40 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2019 23:35 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 21:30 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 20:42 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 16:52 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
Appealing to a fake consensus, now i have seen it all!
He has to, has nothing else
Feel Free to name 3 GSL Series that he didn't proxy in any.
Like I said, the general consensus is Maru was a proxy GSL boy
A few minority Maru Fan posters won't change that =)
Facts baby
Jesus christ that ain't fact
Just go back to his GSL runs, rewatch the start of each games, create a chart of the oppening then give us that. It's not rocket science ffs
Like I said, it's the general consensus and most people will always remember Maru's run as the proxy meta.
I'll let you create a chart and let us know which series he did not proxy vs the ones he did. Not rocket science.
General Consensus for the SC2 community.
lol, ok fuck off
So in other words, you can't dispute the general consensus.
Typical Maru fans, can't come up series he did not proxy, so resort to name calling. And Maru fanboys wonder why no one takes them seriously
I mean Dark had the best year but didn't have an insane year either. Just a particularly good end of the year including an amazing Blizzcon (in a favorable meta)
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
The issue I was against was that Maru used the proxy meta to win all them titles. This is S1 IIRC. So you proved Maru used few proxy games in S1, how about S2, 3 or S1?
On November 04 2019 23:40 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2019 23:35 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 21:30 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 20:42 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 16:52 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 08:55 BerserkSword wrote:
On November 04 2019 08:18 Fango wrote:
On November 04 2019 08:10 BerserkSword wrote: [quote] Maru's 4 GSLs heavily involved proxy and broken raven. Favorable meta?
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
Appealing to a fake consensus, now i have seen it all!
He has to, has nothing else
Feel Free to name 3 GSL Series that he didn't proxy in any.
Like I said, the general consensus is Maru was a proxy GSL boy
A few minority Maru Fan posters won't change that =)
Facts baby
He was the only one to make it works tho. The worst thing is the counter wasn't that hard (sOs), so they didn't really try to counter it, that's why it worked.
On November 04 2019 08:10 BerserkSword wrote: [quote] Maru's 4 GSLs heavily involved proxy and broken raven. Favorable meta?
"heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
The issue I was against was that Maru used the proxy meta to win all them titles. This is S1 IIRC. So you proved Maru used few proxy games in S1, how about S2, 3 or S1?
On November 04 2019 23:40 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2019 23:35 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 21:30 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 20:42 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 16:52 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 08:55 BerserkSword wrote:
On November 04 2019 08:18 Fango wrote: [quote] "heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
Appealing to a fake consensus, now i have seen it all!
He has to, has nothing else
Feel Free to name 3 GSL Series that he didn't proxy in any.
Like I said, the general consensus is Maru was a proxy GSL boy
A few minority Maru Fan posters won't change that =)
Facts baby
He was the only one to make it works tho. The worst thing is the counter wasn't that hard (sOs), so they didn't really try to counter it, that's why it worked.
sOs developed this proxy meta for Maru, so of course the genius sOs can counter it =)
To be fair, TY made it work as well against neeb in the GSL semi's
On November 04 2019 08:18 Fango wrote: [quote] "heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them.
Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time).
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18)
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
The issue I was against was that Maru used the proxy meta to win all them titles. This is S1 IIRC. So you proved Maru used few proxy games in S1, how about S2, 3 or S1?
On November 04 2019 23:40 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2019 23:35 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 21:30 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 20:42 FlyGaho wrote:
On November 04 2019 16:52 deacon.frost wrote:
On November 04 2019 08:55 BerserkSword wrote: [quote]
What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall.
He was using proxies the entire time.
There were more than two games involving the raven....
[quote]
I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL)
The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were
Simply no, please post evidence when you say such things. There are VODs for most of his games...
He is right you know.
It's a general consensus that Maru abused proxy for his 4 GSL
Maru fans boys need to accept that
Then post the proxy games, it shouldn't be that hard since he abused them proxies ... or?
Easy
Keen vs Maru GSL.
Maru proxy reaper 2 straight game after Keen beat him in a macro game game 1
Proxy vs stats in GSL finals to win
Just too ez
Dont change Maru fan boy dont change
Maru = product of the proxy meta. General Consensus, overrated player with that meta
Appealing to a fake consensus, now i have seen it all!
He has to, has nothing else
Feel Free to name 3 GSL Series that he didn't proxy in any.
Like I said, the general consensus is Maru was a proxy GSL boy
A few minority Maru Fan posters won't change that =)
Facts baby
Jesus christ that ain't fact
Just go back to his GSL runs, rewatch the start of each games, create a chart of the oppening then give us that. It's not rocket science ffs
Like I said, it's the general consensus and most people will always remember Maru's run as the proxy meta.
I'll let you create a chart and let us know which series he did not proxy vs the ones he did. Not rocket science.
Not sure why you and the rest of the Maru fans here are so butthurt over this comment?
We don't think Maru was a trash player, it's just a general consensus he rose to fame for his proxy meta within the SC2 Community
It's not a general consensus if you can't a concensus even in this thread...
"WE don't think" - who we? Also you wrote this
On November 04 2019 06:53 FlyGaho wrote: ...Average Korean who peaked during the broken proxy meta
You have 20 posts and you don't remember what you wrote. In this thread.
NOw let's go to the games. Zest v Maru, 0:4, 1:1 proxies Classic v Maru, 1:4, 1:1 proxies Rogue v Maru, 2:3, 0 proxies Solar v Maru, 0:2, 0:2 proxies Patience, 1:2, 1:0 proxies Zanster, 0:2, 0:1 proxy Dear, 0:2, 0 proxies
So, out of the Season 2 Maru made 5 proxy builds in 23 map games. 21 % of his maps were proxies, 3 were proxies against him(Patience proxied SG? not sure now, didn't check, saw building outside main or natural and it wasn't 3rd base); 5 - 3 isn't that huge score, is it?
Do I need to check other games or will you finally accept the reality and not the general consensus(which doesn't exist)?
Edit> This is not a heavy proxy abusive player. Abusing proxy meta means in my world at least majority of your map wins come from a proxy. That would mean in this season I checked that Maru would have to played at least 12 proxy maps. He did not.
Edit 2>
2019 Code S1 v Classic, 0:4 for proxies v Dear, Trap, Impact(twice) - 0 proxies. The last proxy Maru made this season was against Bunny in the winner match of RO16(which he lost), from then 4 games without a proxy. Won because abused proxies. Didn't do any proxy for the whole bracket. Wee, general consensus!
On November 04 2019 22:04 Obamarauder wrote: Why is there still argument about serral vs dark? What if it was serral vs reynor in the finals instead and reynor won? will there be arguments about “reynor got lucky, if it was dark he would of lost”. If you are truly a GOAT then u should prove it by winning the tournament regardless of which opponents ur placed against and overcome any “bad bracket luck” which is a dumb excuse.
First of all, the GOAT doesn't have to win every tournament; that title refers to amassing a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career; Serral is still not close to that title, even if is for sure one of the greats of Sc2.
Coming to Serral vs Dark, I don't see people speaking of bad bracket luck; the point is that Serral had the game won, threw terribly hard and Reynor went on to deliver a subpar performance in the finals. Retrospectively, it's almost granted that Serral vs Dark would have been a much more entertaining series, not to mention the fact #1 WCS vs #1 KR would have been a better narrative; Dark himself said he would have liked to face Serral(to further legitimate his claim of being the best in the world; I think Serral would have prevailed, but we will never know).
Fact: Serral threw terribly hard
Fan Fiction: Serral vs Dark would have been a much more entertaining series... better narrative nonsense. As if WCS points is equal to KR points.
First of all, the GOAT doesn't have to win every tournament; that title refers to amassing a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career; Serral is still not close to that title, even if is for sure one of the greats of Sc2.
Oh nice, I think we are in agreement this time. I wonder who has amassed a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career?
100% agree, and I'm surprised that the #1 Serral fan says that Serral is not even close.
4 GSL in-a-row I think is second to none, and the hardest to match. That is on top of the only player to have won all the Korean star leagues, OSL, SSL, GSL. Unbelievable record in ProLeague + MVP title and being the Ace player bringing his team Championships. The only player in Starcraft2 to achieve Double Royal Road (SSL and OSL); the only other player to have done this is BoxeR in Broodwar. WESG win. Lots of top 4 finish. TY as rival. The fourth race.
I have to point out however, a championship is exponentially more prestigious result than a semi-finals finish. Or even a second place finish; unless you do it multiple times in Code S.
Serral facing Dark is not something I personally wanted to see, I did not care at all for that matchup. I am appropriately answering to someone who asked a question.
Just abandon this ridicolously cocky anti-foreigner attitude, it is outdated at best and stupid at worst; fronkshonk's posts are full of contents(unlike yours), we disagree on certain things but there is common ground to discuss on.
If you are surprised reading that I don't think that Serral is the GOAT, you were misguided all this time: I never said that he is. I think, however, that he is #5/#7 all time as opposed to some korean elitists who think he barely qualifies for top 20; in any of case, he is not close to the title yet, he misses a couple of top tier tourmaments(BlizzCon was a good chance to come closer).
One thing is crystal clear to me, in any of case: Maru definitely is not the GOAT. Too monodimensional and prone to disappointments in weekenders, too reliant on strategies his team feeds him; a mechanical monster and a paragon of the Terran race in dire times, he belongs in the top 5. Being a God in Korea and a mid level pro outside of Asia doesn't really make him the GOAT, he doesn't even have that many Premier titles(despite every single one of them being very heavy and significant).
I am amused by that guy calling Maru a patch Terran and a proxy abuser, you guys deeply deserve that; you'll know how it is to see a champion pointlessly delegitimazed over and over again. Maru overused the proxies in the latest Code S seasons in 2018 and died because of that at BlizzCon by the hand of sOs, a fair trade; he won Starleagues before without proxying and won a Code S in 2019 without having to resort to that strategy(maybe not even once, I'm not sure).
Edit: I am glad to see people trolling banned with flashlight speed, but I would have loved to see anti-Serral trolls banned just as fast.
Not sure if it's even worth but for the sake of it I did a quick check through Maru's GSL S1 2018 run:
v Keen - 0/2 proxies v Ragnarok - 0/2 proxies (no ravens) v Keen - 2/2 proxies (won, reapers) v Dear - 0/2 proxies v Classic - 0/2 proxies v Gumiho - 0/2 proxies v sOs - 1/5 proxies (cyclones) v Dark - 0/6 proxies (2 raven games) v Stats - 1/6 proxies (2 rax marine bunker contain)
Total: 4/29 proxy games. He also pulled a Maka Factory against Stats (fake proxy) but I don't think that counts. Facts, baby.
On November 05 2019 01:55 Latr02 wrote: Not sure if it's even worth but for the sake of it I did a quick check through Maru's GSL S1 2018 run:
v Keen - 0/2 proxies v Ragnarok - 0/2 proxies (no ravens) v Keen - 2/2 proxies (won, reapers) v Deer - 0/2 proxies v Classic - 0/2 proxies v Gumiho - 0/2 proxies v sOs - 1/5 proxies (cyclones) v Dark - 0/6 proxies (2 raven games) v Stats - 1/6 proxies (2 rax marine bunker contain)
Total: 4/29 proxy games. He also pulled a Maka Factory against Stats (fake proxy) but I don't think that counts. Facts, baby.
Hey at least something good came out of that, thanks!
Dark was just as incredible as in the supertourney. Very well deserved super consistent top tier player, now actually the best. Grats to Reynor for reaching the finals. I for one with the new patch and hopefully a balanced state am looking forward to 2020 with huge interest.
Well done to Dark. He has been the bridesmaid before, e.g. at the WESG 2017.
I've been a zerg fan since WoL, but this Blizz was hard to watch and I found myself rooting for the non-zergs. Quite a turnaround. The nydus play vs Protoss is soul destroying.
I went back to a game I remember well as the apotheosis of why I loved zerg – MajOr vs Snute in IEM Katowice 2016. Perhaps I was too much of a Snute fan to be neutral, but their game 3 felt at the time like some sort of divine justice for the zerg. 15 minutes of being battered, losing the main, losing expansions... then zerg mustering an ultimate army seemingly out of nothing and crushing the terran.
Looking back at it now, it perhaps was not the game I remembered. I liked zerg because it was defensive, and with best play, could deflect all the harassment and attacks and finally absorb most of the map and win. (It seems that wasn't the case.) That IEM bracket was also zerg-dominated, but it didn't upset my equilibrium because it didn't feel as if the race had an advantage. It looked odd with “freeze” fungals and tankivacs.
Hopefully the nydus nerf will return things to normal. (I'm not sure about the infestor.) As things are, it almost feels as if the zerg does not need best play to resist all the hassle and can win with moderate defense.
Re: Maru. I mentioned WESG 2017 above. In his run, Maru beat Reynor 3-0, Serral 3-0, and Dark 4-3. He proxied three times, including the last two games from 2-3 down to pull $120 grand out of Dark's pocketbook. But three proxy games out of 13 does not seem excessive.
I have a memory of a particularly oppressive proxy game, which I think was on Darkness Sanctuary & I was sure it was Maru vs Dark, but I can't find it now (maybe it was neither player). My memory of it is of an all-in proxy game gone long with the zerg on the cusp of stabilising but never quite.
I thought the protoss this year played very well, my hats off to you guys: Classic, Trap, herO, Stats, Neeb, and ShoWTimE. Keep up the hard work, you all played amazing games and I hope to see you guys at next years blizzcon.
On November 04 2019 22:04 Obamarauder wrote: Why is there still argument about serral vs dark? What if it was serral vs reynor in the finals instead and reynor won? will there be arguments about “reynor got lucky, if it was dark he would of lost”. If you are truly a GOAT then u should prove it by winning the tournament regardless of which opponents ur placed against and overcome any “bad bracket luck” which is a dumb excuse.
First of all, the GOAT doesn't have to win every tournament; that title refers to amassing a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career; Serral is still not close to that title, even if is for sure one of the greats of Sc2.
Coming to Serral vs Dark, I don't see people speaking of bad bracket luck; the point is that Serral had the game won, threw terribly hard and Reynor went on to deliver a subpar performance in the finals. Retrospectively, it's almost granted that Serral vs Dark would have been a much more entertaining series, not to mention the fact #1 WCS vs #1 KR would have been a better narrative; Dark himself said he would have liked to face Serral(to further legitimate his claim of being the best in the world; I think Serral would have prevailed, but we will never know).
Fact: Serral threw terribly hard
Fan Fiction: Serral vs Dark would have been a much more entertaining series... better narrative nonsense. As if WCS points is equal to KR points.
First of all, the GOAT doesn't have to win every tournament; that title refers to amassing a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career; Serral is still not close to that title, even if is for sure one of the greats of Sc2.
Oh nice, I think we are in agreement this time. I wonder who has amassed a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career?
100% agree, and I'm surprised that the #1 Serral fan says that Serral is not even close.
4 GSL in-a-row I think is second to none, and the hardest to match. That is on top of the only player to have won all the Korean star leagues, OSL, SSL, GSL. Unbelievable record in ProLeague + MVP title and being the Ace player bringing his team Championships. The only player in Starcraft2 to achieve Double Royal Road (SSL and OSL); the only other player to have done this is BoxeR in Broodwar. WESG win. Lots of top 4 finish. TY as rival. The fourth race.
I have to point out however, a championship is exponentially more prestigious result than a semi-finals finish. Or even a second place finish; unless you do it multiple times in Code S.
Serral facing Dark is not something I personally wanted to see, I did not care at all for that matchup. I am appropriately answering to someone who asked a question.
Just abandon this ridicolously cocky anti-foreigner attitude, it is outdated at best and stupid at worst; fronkshonk's posts are full of contents(unlike yours), we disagree on certain things but there is common ground to discuss on.
If you are surprised reading that I don't think that Serral is the GOAT, you were misguided all this time: I never said that he is. I think, however, that he is #5/#7 all time as opposed to some korean elitists who think he barely qualifies for top 20; in any of case, he is not close to the title yet, he misses a couple of top tier tourmaments(BlizzCon was a good chance to come closer).
One thing is crystal clear to me, in any of case: Maru definitely is not the GOAT. Too monodimensional and prone to disappointments in weekenders, too reliant on strategies his team feeds him; a mechanical monster and a paragon of the Terran race in dire times, he belongs in the top 5. Being a God in Korea and a mid level pro outside of Asia doesn't really make him the GOAT, he doesn't even have that many Premier titles(despite every single one of them being very heavy and significant).
I am amused by that guy calling Maru a patch Terran and a proxy abuser, you guys deeply deserve that; you'll know how it is to see a champion pointlessly delegitimazed over and over again. Maru overused the proxies in the latest Code S seasons in 2018 and died because of that at BlizzCon by the hand of sOs, a fair trade; he won Starleagues before without proxying and won a Code S in 2019 without having to resort to that strategy(maybe not even once, I'm not sure).
Edit: I am glad to see people trolling banned with flashlight speed, but I would have loved to see anti-Serral trolls banned just as fast.
That's because the results says so. All you can come up is "I think Serral would have prevailed" and "but we will never know", and that's because Serral lost.
On November 04 2019 22:04 Obamarauder wrote: Why is there still argument about serral vs dark? What if it was serral vs reynor in the finals instead and reynor won? will there be arguments about “reynor got lucky, if it was dark he would of lost”. If you are truly a GOAT then u should prove it by winning the tournament regardless of which opponents ur placed against and overcome any “bad bracket luck” which is a dumb excuse.
First of all, the GOAT doesn't have to win every tournament; that title refers to amassing a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career; Serral is still not close to that title, even if is for sure one of the greats of Sc2.
Coming to Serral vs Dark, I don't see people speaking of bad bracket luck; the point is that Serral had the game won, threw terribly hard and Reynor went on to deliver a subpar performance in the finals. Retrospectively, it's almost granted that Serral vs Dark would have been a much more entertaining series, not to mention the fact #1 WCS vs #1 KR would have been a better narrative; Dark himself said he would have liked to face Serral(to further legitimate his claim of being the best in the world; I think Serral would have prevailed, but we will never know).
Fact: Serral threw terribly hard
Fan Fiction: Serral vs Dark would have been a much more entertaining series... better narrative nonsense. As if WCS points is equal to KR points.
First of all, the GOAT doesn't have to win every tournament; that title refers to amassing a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career; Serral is still not close to that title, even if is for sure one of the greats of Sc2.
Oh nice, I think we are in agreement this time. I wonder who has amassed a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career?
100% agree, and I'm surprised that the #1 Serral fan says that Serral is not even close.
4 GSL in-a-row I think is second to none, and the hardest to match. That is on top of the only player to have won all the Korean star leagues, OSL, SSL, GSL. Unbelievable record in ProLeague + MVP title and being the Ace player bringing his team Championships. The only player in Starcraft2 to achieve Double Royal Road (SSL and OSL); the only other player to have done this is BoxeR in Broodwar. WESG win. Lots of top 4 finish. TY as rival. The fourth race.
I have to point out however, a championship is exponentially more prestigious result than a semi-finals finish. Or even a second place finish; unless you do it multiple times in Code S.
Serral facing Dark is not something I personally wanted to see, I did not care at all for that matchup. I am appropriately answering to someone who asked a question.
Just abandon this ridicolously cocky anti-foreigner attitude, it is outdated at best and stupid at worst; fronkshonk's posts are full of contents(unlike yours), we disagree on certain things but there is common ground to discuss on.
If you are surprised reading that I don't think that Serral is the GOAT, you were misguided all this time: I never said that he is. I think, however, that he is #5/#7 all time as opposed to some korean elitists who think he barely qualifies for top 20; in any of case, he is not close to the title yet, he misses a couple of top tier tourmaments(BlizzCon was a good chance to come closer).
One thing is crystal clear to me, in any of case: Maru definitely is not the GOAT. Too monodimensional and prone to disappointments in weekenders, too reliant on strategies his team feeds him; a mechanical monster and a paragon of the Terran race in dire times, he belongs in the top 5. Being a God in Korea and a mid level pro outside of Asia doesn't really make him the GOAT, he doesn't even have that many Premier titles(despite every single one of them being very heavy and significant).
I am amused by that guy calling Maru a patch Terran and a proxy abuser, you guys deeply deserve that; you'll know how it is to see a champion pointlessly delegitimazed over and over again. Maru overused the proxies in the latest Code S seasons in 2018 and died because of that at BlizzCon by the hand of sOs, a fair trade; he won Starleagues before without proxying and won a Code S in 2019 without having to resort to that strategy(maybe not even once, I'm not sure).
Edit: I am glad to see people trolling banned with flashlight speed, but I would have loved to see anti-Serral trolls banned just as fast.
That's because the results says so. All you can come up is "I think Serral would have prevailed" and "but we will never know", and that's because Serral lost.
"too reliant on strategies his team feeds him;"
wow. quality post.
Any of my worst post has more quality than your best, no doubt about that.
What's your problem? Serral reached the semifinals and lost, so what? Last year there were hundreds of posts about how Serral was lucky not to face korean Terrans and how Maru would have won, I cannot say I think Serral would have been favored over Dark had he not thrown? I keep repeating Dark deservingly won BlizzCon, but you seem not to like that.
You like facts and numbers when they support your theory, but when it comes to Serral's streak of victories of matches and tournaments all of a sudden they are worthless because "WCS is clearly inferior".
Enjoy these stats, then: Maru, in the last two years(including his outstanding 2018, the best year of his career), played in 12 Premier "weekenders". He won one of those, finished third once, was eliminated three times in the first round and reached ro4 just as many times, reached and didn't go further than the ro8 four times; truly GOAT-like, don't you think? Ah, the WESG he won is the only Premier weekender he won in his whole career(comprising of other six years).
Maru is the best player in history when it comes to korean Starleagues but his performance outside of that is poor, unworthy of a GOAT. And before you come out with his record in Proleague, Stats has a better one.
On November 04 2019 22:04 Obamarauder wrote: Why is there still argument about serral vs dark? What if it was serral vs reynor in the finals instead and reynor won? will there be arguments about “reynor got lucky, if it was dark he would of lost”. If you are truly a GOAT then u should prove it by winning the tournament regardless of which opponents ur placed against and overcome any “bad bracket luck” which is a dumb excuse.
First of all, the GOAT doesn't have to win every tournament; that title refers to amassing a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career; Serral is still not close to that title, even if is for sure one of the greats of Sc2.
Coming to Serral vs Dark, I don't see people speaking of bad bracket luck; the point is that Serral had the game won, threw terribly hard and Reynor went on to deliver a subpar performance in the finals. Retrospectively, it's almost granted that Serral vs Dark would have been a much more entertaining series, not to mention the fact #1 WCS vs #1 KR would have been a better narrative; Dark himself said he would have liked to face Serral(to further legitimate his claim of being the best in the world; I think Serral would have prevailed, but we will never know).
Fact: Serral threw terribly hard
Fan Fiction: Serral vs Dark would have been a much more entertaining series... better narrative nonsense. As if WCS points is equal to KR points.
First of all, the GOAT doesn't have to win every tournament; that title refers to amassing a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career; Serral is still not close to that title, even if is for sure one of the greats of Sc2.
Oh nice, I think we are in agreement this time. I wonder who has amassed a huge amount of prestigious results throughout a player's career?
100% agree, and I'm surprised that the #1 Serral fan says that Serral is not even close.
4 GSL in-a-row I think is second to none, and the hardest to match. That is on top of the only player to have won all the Korean star leagues, OSL, SSL, GSL. Unbelievable record in ProLeague + MVP title and being the Ace player bringing his team Championships. The only player in Starcraft2 to achieve Double Royal Road (SSL and OSL); the only other player to have done this is BoxeR in Broodwar. WESG win. Lots of top 4 finish. TY as rival. The fourth race.
I have to point out however, a championship is exponentially more prestigious result than a semi-finals finish. Or even a second place finish; unless you do it multiple times in Code S.
Serral facing Dark is not something I personally wanted to see, I did not care at all for that matchup. I am appropriately answering to someone who asked a question.
Just abandon this ridicolously cocky anti-foreigner attitude, it is outdated at best and stupid at worst; fronkshonk's posts are full of contents(unlike yours), we disagree on certain things but there is common ground to discuss on.
If you are surprised reading that I don't think that Serral is the GOAT, you were misguided all this time: I never said that he is. I think, however, that he is #5/#7 all time as opposed to some korean elitists who think he barely qualifies for top 20; in any of case, he is not close to the title yet, he misses a couple of top tier tourmaments(BlizzCon was a good chance to come closer).
One thing is crystal clear to me, in any of case: Maru definitely is not the GOAT. Too monodimensional and prone to disappointments in weekenders, too reliant on strategies his team feeds him; a mechanical monster and a paragon of the Terran race in dire times, he belongs in the top 5. Being a God in Korea and a mid level pro outside of Asia doesn't really make him the GOAT, he doesn't even have that many Premier titles(despite every single one of them being very heavy and significant).
I am amused by that guy calling Maru a patch Terran and a proxy abuser, you guys deeply deserve that; you'll know how it is to see a champion pointlessly delegitimazed over and over again. Maru overused the proxies in the latest Code S seasons in 2018 and died because of that at BlizzCon by the hand of sOs, a fair trade; he won Starleagues before without proxying and won a Code S in 2019 without having to resort to that strategy(maybe not even once, I'm not sure).
Edit: I am glad to see people trolling banned with flashlight speed, but I would have loved to see anti-Serral trolls banned just as fast.
That's because the results says so. All you can come up is "I think Serral would have prevailed" and "but we will never know", and that's because Serral lost.
"too reliant on strategies his team feeds him;"
wow. quality post.
I don’t see how it’s such a ridiculous proposition. Maru’s still one of the all-time greats of the game but there is a marked difference between his Proleague and Starleague performances and his showing in international weekend tournaments, a difference in form that’s most logically explained that way (although it doesn’t necessarily mean that is the case either, just it makes the most sense)
He had another underwhelming Blizzcon overall, although I’m not really sure how to judge it given he ran into Dark so early.
I think with another bracket the loss to Time would have been the only blip on an impressive deep run, but alas for Maru he ran into an in-form Dark who crushed him.
Why is Maru proxy event a discussion. He did not proxy that much, and there was nothing wrong wih that if he was the only Terran who could make it work. Look at the BL infestor, literally all pro Zerg can do the strat and make it OP
Lol at the Maru hate. He swept the best toss player in the tournament 3-0 and lost 3-0 to a #2 Zerg on the most imbalanced map pool we've seen since WoL. Do the Maru haters honestly think Dark is on Maru's level...
I hoped for Classic to be the overall winner, or for Reynor. Though he is still young and has future opportunities.
Serral dropped out in the semis but he showed convincing play in the tournament. Dark getting the trophy is not what wanted but of course it is a deserved win. He did not get a chance to play Serra, so Dark was not fully happy.
Overall a finals like life: Not all dreams come true, not everybody wins big, but the question is not only where you end up in place, it is also how you got there. Classic got bopped by Dark but what can you do against the eventual champion?
On November 05 2019 11:14 tskarzyn wrote: Lol at the Maru hate. He swept the best toss player in the tournament 3-0 and lost 3-0 to a #2 Zerg on the most imbalanced map pool we've seen since WoL. Do the Maru haters honestly think Dark is on Maru's level...
Yes, Dark has been a consistently top player for years now. Perhaps Maru shades him by a little in achievements but they’re both clearly S class players.
On November 05 2019 11:14 tskarzyn wrote: Lol at the Maru hate. He swept the best toss player in the tournament 3-0 and lost 3-0 to a #2 Zerg on the most imbalanced map pool we've seen since WoL. Do the Maru haters honestly think Dark is on Maru's level...
The real question is Maru really a top tier player?? Because there is a concesus he abused on proxy and raven. So is he on the lvl of dark? I just remember little Maru getting recked by life and soulkey back in the days. No proxy no win against Zerg. Same happened in this tournament. And always I see him in a tvz. Maru has a meta game against Zerg? Fast BC is his meta game? In his “goat” streak Maru defeated this zergs: impact, ragna, leenock, Scarlett, reynor, zanster, rogue and dark. Only these 2 out of group phase. So in 4 gsl he played only 2 top tier zergs and he played meta in like 1 or 2 games against them. There were like 3 ravens abuse games in those bo series. Against dark he failed a proxy, won 2 timings attack and 2 ravens (lost meta game) Against rogue won timing attack (abusing tank position), lost one game with ravens and won other, lost metagame (without ravens) and won other timing attack. So yeah he won without winning a single metagame (except ravens abuse). If you want to go deeper. In the 4 gsl maru won there were only 4 Zergs in ro16 in each (in one there were 3). So basically he won in an era of proxy and ravens and with very poor Zerg competition. He will always be second tier tvz
On November 05 2019 10:23 ParksonVN wrote: Why is Maru proxy event a discussion. He did not proxy that much, and there was nothing wrong wih that if he was the only Terran who could make it work. Look at the BL infestor, literally all pro Zerg can do the strat and make it OP
Nothing wrong with proxy anyway, it's a real risk if you get scouted early. Is it that broken? Is it what made Maru win his proxy games? Didn't they all went end game?
His 2 proxy in a row against KeeN was historical. I think people are forgetting that proxies have risk.
Also reminds of when he tried to do ByuN's reaper play. But kept losing games because of it; then started winning when he stopped doing it during a series. This is indeed far from rapid fire spraying infested terrans or rapid firing nyduses.
But the sole fact everyone is "meh" about the fact the game is in terrrible state in terms of balance, and what is more important, is heading straight to abyss design-wise (in the light of recent events, aka "balance" team "balance" tweaks), leads me to a conclusion that next year will be even worse.
Its freaking obvious to everyone that nydus is broken. Even the casters don't bother pretending it's ok, but the community is like "whatever", "at least its funny to watch protoss in agony". And Blizzard just continues to pretend it's not happening and instead is bombarding the game with dozens of new upgrade proposals, and everyone is "ok, new changes are interesting, let's discuss them".
Are you all out of your minds? Do you really think that this attitude is working? Shuffling random stats on random units every half a year? Does everyone remember how many times thor was redesigned? Nydus changed? Some random bs upgrade added/cost changed and then reverted? How long will we "discuss" zealot charge upgrade? For the next 3 years? Like, "we definitely think 8 dmg is too much, we are considering to remove it", 2 weeks later: "we reconsidered, this nerf is too much", 2 weeks later: "we actually think that extra damage needs to go", and again: "we were too hasty with that".
For real? Is this how a game should be balanced? It's just seems all they bother about is keeping the discussion alive, to hell with the players and the game.
On November 05 2019 11:14 tskarzyn wrote: Lol at the Maru hate. He swept the best toss player in the tournament 3-0 and lost 3-0 to a #2 Zerg on the most imbalanced map pool we've seen since WoL. Do the Maru haters honestly think Dark is on Maru's level...
The real question is Maru really a top tier player?? Because there is a concesus he abused on proxy and raven. So is he on the lvl of dark? I just remember little Maru getting recked by life and soulkey back in the days. No proxy no win against Zerg. Same happened in this tournament. And always I see him in a tvz. Maru has a meta game against Zerg? Fast BC is his meta game? In his “goat” streak Maru defeated this zergs: impact, ragna, leenock, Scarlett, reynor, zanster, rogue and dark. Only these 2 out of group phase. So in 4 gsl he played only 2 top tier zergs and he played meta in like 1 or 2 games against them. There were like 3 ravens abuse games in those bo series. Against dark he failed a proxy, won 2 timings attack and 2 ravens (lost meta game) Against rogue won timing attack (abusing tank position), lost one game with ravens and won other, lost metagame (without ravens) and won other timing attack. So yeah he won without winning a single metagame (except ravens abuse). If you want to go deeper. In the 4 gsl maru won there were only 4 Zergs in ro16 in each (in one there were 3). So basically he won in an era of proxy and ravens and with very poor Zerg competition. He will always be second tier tvz
Maru, in his WESG last year (2018) which was during his run for his first Code S championship:
Mar 10: Code S ro8 - 3:2 against sOs Mar 14: WESG group stage 1 - 2:0 against Elazer and two other terrans Mar 16: WESG group stage 2 - 3:0 against Nerchio, 3:0 against Scarlett, 3:1 against ShowTime Mar 17: WESG ro8 - 3:0 against Reynor Mar 17: WESG ro4 - 3:0 against Serral Mar 17: WESG finals - 4:3 against Dark Mar 24: Code S ro4 - 4:2 against Dark Mar 31: Code S finals - 4:2 against Stats
Maru claimed $200,000 for his WESG win, a win denied by TY a year prior in which he only pocketed $100,000 in second place.
3 months later in his 2nd-in-a-row Code S win, he would beat Solar 2:0 and 3:2 Rogue. This was a month after Raven anti-armor missile was nerfed: Patch 4.3.0
Maru just abused his own skill at the game, without having favourable abilities like good macro and multitasking he would never have won anything. Very much overrated player. Nerchio was right
On November 05 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: Maru just abused his own skill at the game, without having favourable abilities like good macro and multitasking he would never have won anything. Very much overrated player. Nerchio was right
Where is Nerchio btw, why did he stop playing seriously?
On November 05 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: Maru just abused his own skill at the game, without having favourable abilities like good macro and multitasking he would never have won anything. Very much overrated player. Nerchio was right
I really, really didn't want to post anything in this shitthread, but this is just too funny
What the hell is "he abused his own skill" even mean? Are you guys ever reading the stuff you posting?
He abused the fact that he is the better aka more skilled player an won. Aha. What a cheater... rofl
On November 05 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: Maru just abused his own skill at the game, without having favourable abilities like good macro and multitasking he would never have won anything. Very much overrated player. Nerchio was right
I really, really didn't want to post anything in this shitthread, but this is just too funny
What the hell is "he abused his own skill" even mean? Are you guys ever reading the stuff you posting?
He abused the fact that he is the better aka more skilled player an won. Aha. What a cheater... rofl
You didn't pay attention enough and got tricked; do you really think Fango would write anything against Maru? That's some Charoisaur level sarcasm.
Nerchio was right, in a way, people on TL really overrate Maru, but that's just because on this forum he is considered the unconstested God GOAT of Sc2 whereas he simply is one of the best and most accomplished players in Sc2's history.
As for Nerchio himself, he's still around I guess; according to Aligulac he played his last game one month ago. Is he not active anymore on ladder? Nerchio is not top tier level in EU but he's still quite good.
On November 05 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: Maru just abused his own skill at the game, without having favourable abilities like good macro and multitasking he would never have won anything. Very much overrated player. Nerchio was right
I really, really didn't want to post anything in this shitthread, but this is just too funny
What the hell is "he abused his own skill" even mean? Are you guys ever reading the stuff you posting?
He abused the fact that he is the better aka more skilled player an won. Aha. What a cheater... rofl
You didn't pay attention enough and got tricked; do you really think Fango would write anything against Maru? That's some Charoisaur level sarcasm.
Nerchio was right, in a way, people on TL really overrate Maru, but that's just because on this forum he is considered the unconstested God GOAT of Sc2 whereas he simply is one of the best and most accomplished players in Sc2's history.
As for Nerchio himself, he's still around I guess; according to Aligulac he played his last game one month ago. Is he not active anymore on ladder? Nerchio is not top tier level in EU but he's still quite good.
That's not even true by any means, there is no consensus on TL who the "GOAT" even is, quite a lot of people still go with MVP, some go with Life, some go with Inno, some go with Maru, there is quite a difference in opinion. But thanks for clearing up where maru really belongs, xainon has spoken!
On November 05 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: Maru just abused his own skill at the game, without having favourable abilities like good macro and multitasking he would never have won anything. Very much overrated player. Nerchio was right
I really, really didn't want to post anything in this shitthread, but this is just too funny
What the hell is "he abused his own skill" even mean? Are you guys ever reading the stuff you posting?
He abused the fact that he is the better aka more skilled player an won. Aha. What a cheater... rofl
You didn't pay attention enough and got tricked; do you really think Fango would write anything against Maru? That's some Charoisaur level sarcasm.
Nerchio was right, in a way, people on TL really overrate Maru, but that's just because on this forum he is considered the unconstested God GOAT of Sc2 whereas he simply is one of the best and most accomplished players in Sc2's history.
As for Nerchio himself, he's still around I guess; according to Aligulac he played his last game one month ago. Is he not active anymore on ladder? Nerchio is not top tier level in EU but he's still quite good.
That's not even true by any means, there is no consensus on TL who the "GOAT" even is, quite a lot of people still go with MVP, some go with Life, some go with Inno, some go with Maru, there is quite a difference in opinion. But thanks for clearing up where maru really belongs, xainon has spoken!
Let's just say serral is the goat so he can sleep in peace
On November 05 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: Maru just abused his own skill at the game, without having favourable abilities like good macro and multitasking he would never have won anything. Very much overrated player. Nerchio was right
I really, really didn't want to post anything in this shitthread, but this is just too funny
What the hell is "he abused his own skill" even mean? Are you guys ever reading the stuff you posting?
He abused the fact that he is the better aka more skilled player an won. Aha. What a cheater... rofl
You didn't pay attention enough and got tricked; do you really think Fango would write anything against Maru? That's some Charoisaur level sarcasm.
Nerchio was right, in a way, people on TL really overrate Maru, but that's just because on this forum he is considered the unconstested God GOAT of Sc2 whereas he simply is one of the best and most accomplished players in Sc2's history.
As for Nerchio himself, he's still around I guess; according to Aligulac he played his last game one month ago. Is he not active anymore on ladder? Nerchio is not top tier level in EU but he's still quite good.
That's not even true by any means, there is no consensus on TL who the "GOAT" even is, quite a lot of people still go with MVP, some go with Life, some go with Inno, some go with Maru, there is quite a difference in opinion. But thanks for clearing up where maru really belongs, xainon has spoken!
You are welcome. If it is needed(and it shouldn't really be), I'll specify that of course not everyone here thinks Maru is the GOAT but he still went incredibly close to be crowned(one vote behind Innovation in Nakajin's tournament); to me, this means that Maru, as good and accomplished as he is, is loved on this forum way more than it should be legit as the idea of choosing him as GOAT over Inno, Mvp or Life couldn't be otherwise justified.
On November 06 2019 00:39 SamirDuran wrote:
Let's just say serral is the goat so he can sleep in peace
Here comes another one. I never said Serral is the GOAT, and I'll tell you something more: Maru is more of a GOAT than Serral, at the moment.
On November 06 2019 00:23 Poopi wrote: Well he was one of the top foreigners in 2016 and 2017, so being #33 WCS points in 2019 seems odd to me.
Nerchio has been around since 2011, he is 27 years old right now and the new breed of foreigner champions is probably the best that there has ever been. I don't find it weird that Nerchio isn't at the top anymore.
On November 05 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: Maru just abused his own skill at the game, without having favourable abilities like good macro and multitasking he would never have won anything. Very much overrated player. Nerchio was right
Is not skills if you abuse of poor map pool (in maps that clearly benefits terran exploding those advantage with timming attacks or proxy rax) or abusing of ravens before they were debuffed. Thats why maru cant abuse anymore of those advanteges against zergs and now he is destroyed. Also thats why maru was always raped by zergs before lotv. He has no metagame, cant compare his metagame against zerg with inno, taeja, polt, bomber and others good terrans (in their peaks). Terran patch (in the same period of time 2011-2015 Maru won 2 premier tournament, taeja 11, life 10, MVP 9, inno 5, rain 5, polt 7, etc.)
On November 05 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: Maru just abused his own skill at the game, without having favourable abilities like good macro and multitasking he would never have won anything. Very much overrated player. Nerchio was right
I really, really didn't want to post anything in this shitthread, but this is just too funny
What the hell is "he abused his own skill" even mean? Are you guys ever reading the stuff you posting?
He abused the fact that he is the better aka more skilled player an won. Aha. What a cheater... rofl
You didn't pay attention enough and got tricked; do you really think Fango would write anything against Maru? That's some Charoisaur level sarcasm.
Nerchio was right, in a way, people on TL really overrate Maru, but that's just because on this forum he is considered the unconstested God GOAT of Sc2 whereas he simply is one of the best and most accomplished players in Sc2's history.
As for Nerchio himself, he's still around I guess; according to Aligulac he played his last game one month ago. Is he not active anymore on ladder? Nerchio is not top tier level in EU but he's still quite good.
That's not even true by any means, there is no consensus on TL who the "GOAT" even is, quite a lot of people still go with MVP, some go with Life, some go with Inno, some go with Maru, there is quite a difference in opinion. But thanks for clearing up where maru really belongs, xainon has spoken!
You are welcome. If it is needed(and it shouldn't really be), I'll specify that of course not everyone here thinks Maru is the GOAT but he still went incredibly close to be crowned(one vote behind Innovation in Nakajin's tournament); to me, this means that Maru, as good and accomplished as he is, is loved on this forum way more than it should be legit as the idea of choosing him as GOAT over Inno, Mvp or Life couldn't be otherwise justified.
Oh it can be justified if you actually cared to look at his career results in a more holistic angle. It's not nearly as out there as you make it seem. But this discussion took place a few times already and noone has changed their pov, i doubt this time would be any different!
On November 05 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: Maru just abused his own skill at the game, without having favourable abilities like good macro and multitasking he would never have won anything. Very much overrated player. Nerchio was right
Is not skills if you abuse of poor map pool (in maps that clearly benefits terran exploding those advantage with timming attacks or proxy rax) or abusing of ravens before they were debuffed. Thats why maru cant abuse anymore of those advanteges against zergs and now he is destroyed. Also thats why maru was always raped by zergs before lotv. He has no metagame, cant compare his metagame against zerg with inno, taeja, polt, bomber and others good terrans (in their peaks). Terran patch (in the same period of time 2011-2015 Maru won 2 premier tournament, taeja 11, life 10, MVP 9, inno 5, rain 5, polt 7, etc.)
Polt and Bomber? :S I love both players but come on.
Hopefully we can get some variety in future events, ZvZ is pretty boring for me to watch all day every day. The event was pretty underwhelming in what has been a bad year for blizzard esports in general.
On November 03 2019 19:50 parksonsc wrote: Inno said on his stream that gaming is no longer important to him like it was before, after his WESG win. Others Korean like Soo, Rogue also admit they got lazy and did not practice hard anymore (until important tournaments), and more often I see top Protoss in GSL got 10+ probes killed by a widowmine drop while nothing was happening anywhere else. I can't believe people still say that Koreans are not getting worse.
people don't want to admit the truth and want to hype up foreigners finally getting to the level of koreans.
Well of course. I blame the region lock killing of the Korean scene, as korean tournaments only can't sustain all the talented progamers in Korea. That's why most of them retired, but blizzard at least helped bring up the foreigners that way which is stupid, because they had to kill of the biggest and most talented starcraft scene so to help others have a chance, the thing it started with forcing the korean scene to switch from BW to SC2. The little support for the game from Blizzard also helped that, as for them Starcraft 2 is now a third rate game after WoW, Overwatch and Diablo. Probably worse of then Heartstone even, soon to be at the level of Heroes of the storm.
Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
IDK if your no1 is soO or Life, but these two are top 10 for me, probably Dark too now, maybe also Serral. Not that bad tbh.
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
On November 03 2019 19:50 parksonsc wrote: Inno said on his stream that gaming is no longer important to him like it was before, after his WESG win. Others Korean like Soo, Rogue also admit they got lazy and did not practice hard anymore (until important tournaments), and more often I see top Protoss in GSL got 10+ probes killed by a widowmine drop while nothing was happening anywhere else. I can't believe people still say that Koreans are not getting worse.
people don't want to admit the truth and want to hype up foreigners finally getting to the level of koreans.
Well of course. I blame the region lock killing of the Korean scene, as korean tournaments only can't sustain all the talented progamers in Korea. That's why most of them retired, but blizzard at least helped bring up the foreigners that way which is stupid, because they had to kill of the biggest and most talented starcraft scene so to help others have a chance, the thing it started with forcing the korean scene to switch from BW to SC2. The little support for the game from Blizzard also helped that, as for them Starcraft 2 is now a third rate game after WoW, Overwatch and Diablo. Probably worse of then Heartstone even, soon to be at the level of Heroes of the storm.
They’ve still supported it pretty well, for quite some time.
The Korean scene has many structural problems that go beyond region locked tournaments.
You also don’t have as many third party international tournaments either to fill those gaps. MLGs, IPLs, regular IEMs outside of Katowice, Dreamhacks etc.
Blizz absolutely could have mitigated these issues better and helped but they’re hardly singularly to blame.
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos. soO is not top 2 zerg anymore (2 premiers and 9 second places against 5 premiers and 8 second places and many more semis). Even soO played in a harder time not enough too be second.
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. Like people joined after 2010 in liquid forum shoudnt have a vote in this kind of discussion. Like people not reconicing savior as the greatest player all games and boxer against yellow in cocacola as the best game ever.
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style or malone and stockton legendary lvl)
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)
Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. Like people joined after 2010 in liquid forum shoudnt have a vote in this kind of discussion. Like people not reconicing savior as the greatest player all games and boxer against yellow in cocacola as the best game ever.
I have like a 100 page words document on the subject I fell like I at least get to speak... MMA was dominant in 2011 and early 2012 but he never make it back to the top. The EU circuit was the easiest by a good shot and between 2013 and 2015 he only has three good run in event with top tiers player (Bucarest semi, Blizzcon final and GSL season 1 semi in 2015) in all of the IEM or other international events he almost always disappointed and fell to the first Kespa player he faced. + he has a Dreamhack won against jjackji and a HSC won against Firecake (which was awesome don't get me wrong) Top 15 maybe, to 10 not for me.
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)
Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
Dark in the top 10? Arguable.
soO in the top 10? Consistent with all the Maru GOAT claims, still two Premier titles are too few for anyone, it doesn't matter how strong he looked in Code S.
Not even listing Serral in 2019 as a possible top 10 while considering to put NesTea in? Exhilarant.
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)
Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).
Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career.
Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague)
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)
Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).
Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career.
Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague)
I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain
On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote: Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied. Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times.
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
Not even listing Serral in 2019 as a possible top 10 while considering to put NesTea in? Exhilarant.
Look if it was up to me none of the top WoL players would be in the top 10, but it's still 2-3 years of SC2 and you have to honour that. NesTea was the original elite zerg. In terms of skill relative to the playing field at least. It's not like Serral is winning back-to-back GSLs, or winning GSLs without dropping a map.
On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote: [quote] Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)
Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).
Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career.
Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague)
I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain
Different times, different challenges. MC was good.
On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote: [quote] Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)
Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).
Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career.
Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague)
I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain
You were even playing sc2 at the time Taeja played? He was clearly top3 player in the world for years playing at the same lvl of inno and life in the peak of Sc2. In which cave where you? Btw there was an article made 2015 greatest of all times. Taeja 3. Rain was 10 (he only won 1 gsl after that) so I’m not that convinced he is ahead of Taeja. Not to mention hero who is clearly under rain. Oh and btw Taeja in the last poll was 7.
On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote: [quote] Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)
Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).
Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career.
Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague)
I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain
I'd probably replace herO/Rain with soO but otherwise I can't really dispute anyone else in your top 10 list.
Edit: If the list was in order, I would say Dark should be above Stats and sOs and Zest are bit too high but otherwise I agree with it. If I had to make a list it would look something like
1. INnoVation (I think he's tied with Maru in achievements but succeeded in a tougher era with better winrates) 2. Maru 3. Life 4. Mvp 5. Dark 6. sOs 7. Stats 8. Zest 9. soO 10. Classic
On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote: [quote]
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)
Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).
Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career.
Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague)
I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain
I'd probably replace herO/Rain with soO but otherwise I can't really dispute anyone else in your top 10 list.
Edit: If the list was in order, I would say Dark should be above Stats and sOs and Zest are bit too high but otherwise I agree with it. If I had to make a list it would look something like
1. INnoVation (I think he's tied with Maru in achievements but succeeded in a tougher era with better winrates) 2. Maru 3. Life 4. Mvp 5. Dark 6. sOs 7. Stats 8. Zest 9. soO 10. Classic
It’s pretty solid really, sOs makes it confusing. Two huge world championships but not quite the Starleague record of other Protoss players.
Really for me there’s a top 4/5 now maybe with Dark, and the rest of the top 15 you can reasonably interchange as they’re all vaguely on the same tier, including Serral.
Covering Starcraft’s span I think a top 20 should be basically the best of their races in WoL in Mvp, Nestea, MC, then Taeja as an outlier, basically the rest all Kespa players and Serral.
In what order we can nitpick but I think that largely covers it, plus Life and maybe a few other EsF guys
Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote: [quote]
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)
Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).
Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career.
Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague)
I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain
I'd probably replace herO/Rain with soO but otherwise I can't really dispute anyone else in your top 10 list.
Edit: If the list was in order, I would say Dark should be above Stats and sOs and Zest are bit too high but otherwise I agree with it. If I had to make a list it would look something like
1. INnoVation (I think he's tied with Maru in achievements but succeeded in a tougher era with better winrates) 2. Maru 3. Life 4. Mvp 5. Dark 6. sOs 7. Stats 8. Zest 9. soO 10. Classic
Personally feel that Stats edges out Dark based on the fact that he has won trophies more consistently and also at times when his race has been at its weakest. Dark has won most of his titles in the past few months when Zerg has very obviously been imbalanced.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)
Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).
Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career.
Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague)
I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain
I'd probably replace herO/Rain with soO but otherwise I can't really dispute anyone else in your top 10 list.
Edit: If the list was in order, I would say Dark should be above Stats and sOs and Zest are bit too high but otherwise I agree with it. If I had to make a list it would look something like
1. INnoVation (I think he's tied with Maru in achievements but succeeded in a tougher era with better winrates) 2. Maru 3. Life 4. Mvp 5. Dark 6. sOs 7. Stats 8. Zest 9. soO 10. Classic
Personally feel that Stats edges out Dark based on the fact that he has won trophies more consistently and also at times when his race has been at its weakest. Dark has won most of his titles in the past few months when Zerg has very obviously been imbalanced.
that's a good point. I think they are really close in any case.
On November 07 2019 11:34 Xain0n wrote: I'll never agree with these lists, too much focused on KeSpa era and giving Code S a disproportionate relevance.
Well what’s your alternative listing if you disagree?
On November 07 2019 11:34 Xain0n wrote: I'll never agree with these lists, too much focused on KeSpa era and giving Code S a disproportionate relevance.
I mean its only the historically hardest and most competitive tournament across the entire lifetime of Starcraft 2, probably not worth much right?
On November 07 2019 11:34 Xain0n wrote: I'll never agree with these lists, too much focused on KeSpa era and giving Code S a disproportionate relevance.
I mean its only the historically hardest and most competitive tournament across the entire lifetime of Starcraft 2, probably not worth much right?
I think he’s right on the Kespa focus though.
The old guard helped figure out the game and how to play it, people too frequently discard that aspect of a strategy game. So guys like MC and Nestea are frequently undervalued.
An extreme analogy to make the point but if I singularly figured out every standard strategy in the game, and someone else came along and just executed a bit better, who’s worthy of more praise?
No matter what your opinion is, the best 5 players of all time must be: InnoVation, Maru, MVP, Life and Zest, of which Inno is the best in history, he could be 2nd if Maru wins more code S/Blizzcon/IEM Katowice in next year. Though i hope Inno is not done with SC2 yet, he clearly has the skills ans is still young, just lost motivation.
On November 07 2019 12:51 ParksonVN wrote: No matter what your opinion is, the best 5 players of all time must be: InnoVation, Maru, MVP, Life and Zest, of which Inno is the best in history, he could be 2nd if Maru wins more code S/Blizzcon/IEM Katowice in next year. Though i hope Inno is not done with SC2 yet, he clearly has the skills ans is still young, just lost motivation.
Zest may be top 10 but I disagree with including him as clear top 5
Have to give props to the authors for well-founded and well-rounded cynicism approaching not only the analysis of the tournament but also the SC2 talking points as of late. Cheers for the good review.
On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote: [quote]
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.
MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.
This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)
Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).
Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career.
Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague)
I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain
I'd probably replace herO/Rain with soO but otherwise I can't really dispute anyone else in your top 10 list.
Edit: If the list was in order, I would say Dark should be above Stats and sOs and Zest are bit too high but otherwise I agree with it. If I had to make a list it would look something like
1. INnoVation (I think he's tied with Maru in achievements but succeeded in a tougher era with better winrates) 2. Maru 3. Life 4. Mvp 5. Dark 6. sOs 7. Stats 8. Zest 9. soO 10. Classic
On November 07 2019 12:51 ParksonVN wrote: No matter what your opinion is, the best 5 players of all time must be: InnoVation, Maru, MVP, Life and Zest, of which Inno is the best in history, he could be 2nd if Maru wins more code S/Blizzcon/IEM Katowice in next year. Though i hope Inno is not done with SC2 yet, he clearly has the skills ans is still young, just lost motivation.
Why Zest? Why not Classic? result-wise sOs? (while I don't think he should be there he has 3 WC titles IIRC)
On November 07 2019 12:51 ParksonVN wrote: No matter what your opinion is, the best 5 players of all time must be: InnoVation, Maru, MVP, Life and Zest, of which Inno is the best in history, he could be 2nd if Maru wins more code S/Blizzcon/IEM Katowice in next year. Though i hope Inno is not done with SC2 yet, he clearly has the skills ans is still young, just lost motivation.
Why Zest? Why not Classic? result-wise sOs? (while I don't think he should be there he has 3 WC titles IIRC)
None of these had such incredible year like Zest in 2014. It's also about period of domination, not only result.
Kespa era is a bit overrated, don’t you guys remember that the game was in a horrendous state multiplayer times during said era? Broodlord / infestor (Roro used it so I guess they came at this moment), swarmhost infinite games, blink era, mech super strong era... Whereas MC/NesTea/MVP thrived in less obnoxious eras. GomTvT had an echo because it was hard dropping out of code S, but clearly other than Broodlord / infestor, WoL was a much better game than HotS.
On November 07 2019 17:43 Poopi wrote: Kespa era is a bit overrated, don’t you guys remember that the game was in a horrendous state multiplayer times during said era? Broodlord / infestor (Roro used it so I guess they came at this moment), swarmhost infinite games, blink era, mech super strong era... Whereas MC/NesTea/MVP thrived in less obnoxious eras. GomTvT had an echo because it was hard dropping out of code S, but clearly other than Broodlord / infestor, WoL was a much better game than HotS.
Kespa came at the wrong time and quit too early
That's just your rosy glasses of nostalgia my friend. Especially MC, NesTea and MVP were most relevant in the first few years and in that period, the game was complete shit. We did not really know that back then, because we did not know better, but the small and terrible maps, rushes, 4gates and whatnot meant that this era was not great at all.
Also someone above wrote that Taeja was "top 3 in the world", which is completely absurd. Maybe people read too many stuchiu articles and this has scarred their rational thinking centers? Taeja was a superb player, but he was mostly a foreign circuit havester, he made Ro4 in GSL afair, but that's still not enough.
On November 07 2019 17:43 Poopi wrote: Kespa era is a bit overrated, don’t you guys remember that the game was in a horrendous state multiplayer times during said era? Broodlord / infestor (Roro used it so I guess they came at this moment), swarmhost infinite games, blink era, mech super strong era... Whereas MC/NesTea/MVP thrived in less obnoxious eras. GomTvT had an echo because it was hard dropping out of code S, but clearly other than Broodlord / infestor, WoL was a much better game than HotS.
Kespa came at the wrong time and quit too early
That's just your rosy glasses of nostalgia my friend. Especially MC, NesTea and MVP were most relevant in the first few years and in that period, the game was complete shit. We did not really know that back then, because we did not know better, but the small and terrible maps, rushes, 4gates and whatnot meant that this era was not great at all.
Also someone above wrote that Taeja was "top 3 in the world", which is completely absurd. Maybe people read too many stuchiu articles and this has scarred their rational thinking centers? Taeja was a superb player, but he was mostly a foreign circuit havester, he made Ro4 in GSL afair, but that's still not enough.
Taeja just beat scrubs like Life and Innovation while harvesting Circuits. Taeja is useless.
On November 07 2019 17:43 Poopi wrote: Kespa era is a bit overrated, don’t you guys remember that the game was in a horrendous state multiplayer times during said era? Broodlord / infestor (Roro used it so I guess they came at this moment), swarmhost infinite games, blink era, mech super strong era... Whereas MC/NesTea/MVP thrived in less obnoxious eras. GomTvT had an echo because it was hard dropping out of code S, but clearly other than Broodlord / infestor, WoL was a much better game than HotS.
Kespa came at the wrong time and quit too early
That's just your rosy glasses of nostalgia my friend. Especially MC, NesTea and MVP were most relevant in the first few years and in that period, the game was complete shit. We did not really know that back then, because we did not know better, but the small and terrible maps, rushes, 4gates and whatnot meant that this era was not great at all.
Also someone above wrote that Taeja was "top 3 in the world", which is completely absurd. Maybe people read too many stuchiu articles and this has scarred their rational thinking centers? Taeja was a superb player, but he was mostly a foreign circuit havester, he made Ro4 in GSL afair, but that's still not enough.
Taeja just beat scrubs like Life and Innovation while harvesting Circuits. Taeja is useless.
didnt taeja come back from retirement and almost beat serral in a homestory cup? totally overrated
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
There's no guarantee Life would gave continued winning had he not been banned. sOs for instance was maybe a top 5 HotS player (maybe, I would put him at #6) but didn't win anything in LotV. Life at his peak was getting between 1st and ro4 in almost every event, but that peak didn't actually last that long.
As fir Zest, he's the most dominant protoss without question. He tied Maru and INno for most korean wins in a given year, except he did it in a year with fewer tournaments. Bonus points because he also led KT to a proleague win that year.
On November 07 2019 17:43 Poopi wrote: Kespa era is a bit overrated, don’t you guys remember that the game was in a horrendous state multiplayer times during said era? Broodlord / infestor (Roro used it so I guess they came at this moment), swarmhost infinite games, blink era, mech super strong era... Whereas MC/NesTea/MVP thrived in less obnoxious eras. GomTvT had an echo because it was hard dropping out of code S, but clearly other than Broodlord / infestor, WoL was a much better game than HotS.
Kespa came at the wrong time and quit too early
Kespa came during BL/infestor, most people don't Include it in the kespa era.
There were also barely any infinite swarmhost games under kespa/in korean tournaments anyway. Blink era was a problem I guess, though the mech era didn't really last that long. No way was WoL a better game when for the most part people didn't know how to play it. Most fun expansion? yes. Best in terms of competition? not even close.
The level of play and competition under kespa was still much higher than during most of WoL. Case in point, there was only one GSL final from the start of HotS until the end of kespa that featured a non-kespa transfer player (Life vs PartinG).
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
Yeah there is a concensus Life is the goat. If he wasnt banned he would have 20 or more premiers and like 7 gsl at least. But we cant say it because he was banned. Same as Savior. Life was the last good player and defined the last era of good sc2. Since then Inno continued a bit the lvl and after that 0 lvl.
On November 08 2019 00:18 nojok wrote: If we look at the broader picture and take into account the entertainment provided by the players, MC is number 1 imo.
Nope. There is a concensus the most entertaining player of all time is actually IdrA.
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
Yeah there is a concensus Life is the goat. If he wasnt banned he would have 20 or more premiers and like 7 gsl at least. But we cant say it because he was banned. Same as Savior. Life was the last good player and defined the last era of good sc2. Since then Inno continued a bit the lvl and after that 0 lvl.
Can people stop saying there’s a consensus when there isn’t any such thing? A good argument for Life being up there sure, but that’s not what a consensus is.
It’s not particularly similar to Savior either, Savior’s seemingly unbeatable ZvP was cracked by Bisu and he never really adjusted to that innovation, and unlike Life he didn’t turn to getting involved in betting activities when he was at the top of his powers, indeed the decline of his powers were likely a reason as to why he did.
‘Last good player’ is just a preposterous statement.
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
There's no guarantee Life would gave continued winning had he not been banned. sOs for instance was maybe a top 5 HotS player (maybe, I would put him at #6) but didn't win anything in LotV. Life at his peak was getting between 1st and ro4 in almost every event, but that peak didn't actually last that long.
As fir Zest, he's the most dominant protoss without question. He tied Maru and INno for most korean wins in a given year, except he did it in a year with fewer tournaments. Bonus points because he also led KT to a proleague win that year.
Funny how he ended KT with a failed cannon rush at match point in the last finals of ProLeague. That is when Zest started his downhill. He'd always slaughter Trap before then.
As for sOs, he won IEM Season X - Taipei 4:2 against ByuN. 3 months into LotV. Although several months later, ByuN reached Super Saiyan 4 and kill sOs' 4:1 in Code S finals. Almost exactly 1 year later, he would then lose to another Terran, INnoVation 3:4 in another Code S finals.
All the GOAT discussions in this thread inspired me to do some statistics. I collected the results of all starleagues (OSL, SSL, GSL) in SC2 and distributed points accordingly.
The results in a scatter plot (y-axis = number of starleague appearances [including failed qualification]; x-axis = summed up points)
It is pretty clear that Maru, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, Stats, soO, herO, Zest, Dear, Solar, PartinG, MarineKing, NesTea, Mvp, Rain, Life, Soulkey are the players with remarkable performances starleague-wise.
On November 08 2019 02:26 Darkdwarf wrote: All the GOAT discussions in this thread inspired me to do some statistics. I collected the results of all starleagues (OSL, SSL, GSL) in SC2 and distributed points accordingly.
The results in a scatter plot (y-axis = number of starleague appearances [including failed qualification]; x-axis = summed up points)
It is pretty clear that Maru, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, Stats, soO, herO, Zest, Dear, Solar, PartinG, MarineKing, NesTea, Mvp, Rain, Life, Soulkey are the players with remarkable performances starleague-wise.
Kespa cup (Iron squid) and blizzcon are in the mix? Because they are starleagues. Its weird Nestea has more starleagues played then life. I dont know its kinda strange. Anyway is a good graphic but doesnt take in consideration the lvl of competition.
On November 08 2019 00:18 nojok wrote: If we look at the broader picture and take into account the entertainment provided by the players, MC is number 1 imo.
Nope. There is a concensus the most entertaining player of all time is actually IdrA.
For me anyway, he had a perfect blend of being the foreign hope, actually being good, the antihero vibe and a frequently terrible mentality too.
On November 08 2019 02:26 Darkdwarf wrote: All the GOAT discussions in this thread inspired me to do some statistics. I collected the results of all starleagues (OSL, SSL, GSL) in SC2 and distributed points accordingly.
The results in a scatter plot (y-axis = number of starleague appearances [including failed qualification]; x-axis = summed up points)
It is pretty clear that Maru, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, Stats, soO, herO, Zest, Dear, Solar, PartinG, MarineKing, NesTea, Mvp, Rain, Life, Soulkey are the players with remarkable performances starleague-wise.
Kespa cup (Iron squid) and blizzcon are in the mix? Because they are starleagues. Its weird Nestea has more starleagues played then life. Leenock played almost same starleagues as Life and has almost double points. I dont know its kinda strange. Anyway is a good graphic but doesnt take in consideration the lvl of competition.
They pretty clearly aren't since they aren't league tournament.
Anyway I'm surprised how well Gumiho performed overall, always underappreciated
I don't really agree with the failed qualification having points retracted. It shouldn't really matter if they transferred to SC2 while already in their prime (e.g innovation) or worked up to being an elite player during SC2 (e.g Maru). No one cares if Serral wasn't a top player for the first five years of his career.
On November 08 2019 03:26 Fango wrote: I don't really agree with the failed qualification having points retracted. It shouldn't really matter if they transferred to SC2 while already in their prime (e.g innovation) or worked up to being an elite player during SC2 (e.g Maru).
I agree. Also top spots should have more points. Being champ in every sports give twice as second (example tennis, golf, box, etc). First should be like 30, second 15, third and fourth 10, 5-8 should be 7 and the rest.
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
There's no guarantee Life would gave continued winning had he not been banned. sOs for instance was maybe a top 5 HotS player (maybe, I would put him at #6) but didn't win anything in LotV. Life at his peak was getting between 1st and ro4 in almost every event, but that peak didn't actually last that long.
As fir Zest, he's the most dominant protoss without question. He tied Maru and INno for most korean wins in a given year, except he did it in a year with fewer tournaments. Bonus points because he also led KT to a proleague win that year.
I guess Life would have won something but we have no way to find this out.
It's very hard to appropriately rank the most accomplished korean Protoss, there are a handful almost tied in achievements; maybe Zest had the most dominant year out of every Protoss, but MC was just the Protoss race in Korea for two years, he can't be discarded just because it happened during WoL.
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
Yeah there is a concensus Life is the goat. If he wasnt banned he would have 20 or more premiers and like 7 gsl at least. But we cant say it because he was banned. Same as Savior. Life was the last good player and defined the last era of good sc2. Since then Inno continued a bit the lvl and after that 0 lvl.
Can people stop saying there’s a consensus when there isn’t any such thing? A good argument for Life being up there sure, but that’s not what a consensus is.
It’s not particularly similar to Savior either, Savior’s seemingly unbeatable ZvP was cracked by Bisu and he never really adjusted to that innovation, and unlike Life he didn’t turn to getting involved in betting activities when he was at the top of his powers, indeed the decline of his powers were likely a reason as to why he did.
‘Last good player’ is just a preposterous statement.
To add: An example of a consensus is Flash being GOAT of BW.
On that note, can we recreate the graphs used here for SC2? - Bonjwa
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
I just cant understand why Life is so damn overrated in these discussions ?? He was a very good player for a very short time and thats it. Dark and Serral for example surpass his achievements by far and are even more dominant than he ever was. "If he wasnt banned".....well he screwed himself so well never know. But I would guess probably not.
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
I just cant understand why Life is so damn overrated in these discussions ?? He was a very good player for a very short time and thats it. Dark and Serral for example surpass his achievements by far and are even more dominant than he ever was. "If he wasnt banned".....well he screwed himself so well never know. But I would guess probably not.
He made 3 GSL code S finals (won 2), 2 Blizzcon finals (won 1) in the golden era of SC2. None of Dark/Serral has tied him in achievement. That era was filled by monsters at their peak skills (both mechanic and strategy), 2018- 2019 is not even close to that level of competition.
On November 08 2019 02:26 Darkdwarf wrote: All the GOAT discussions in this thread inspired me to do some statistics. I collected the results of all starleagues (OSL, SSL, GSL) in SC2 and distributed points accordingly.
The results in a scatter plot (y-axis = number of starleague appearances [including failed qualification]; x-axis = summed up points)
It is pretty clear that Maru, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, Stats, soO, herO, Zest, Dear, Solar, PartinG, MarineKing, NesTea, Mvp, Rain, Life, Soulkey are the players with remarkable performances starleague-wise.
Kespa cup (Iron squid) and blizzcon are in the mix? Because they are starleagues. Its weird Nestea has more starleagues played then life. Leenock played almost same starleagues as Life and has almost double points. I dont know its kinda strange. Anyway is a good graphic but doesnt take in consideration the lvl of competition.
They pretty clearly aren't since they aren't league tournament.
Anyway I'm surprised how well Gumiho performed overall, always underappreciated
Also: thanks it's neat!
The graphic is only based on OSL, SSL and GSL. Partly that's just my preference of what's the most important tournaments in our game, and partly that's because they're (mostly) uniform in structure.
On November 08 2019 03:26 Fango wrote: I don't really agree with the failed qualification having points retracted. It shouldn't really matter if they transferred to SC2 while already in their prime (e.g innovation) or worked up to being an elite player during SC2 (e.g Maru).
I agree. Also top spots should have more points. Being champ in every sports give twice as second (example tennis, golf, box, etc). First should be like 30, second 15, third and fourth 10, 5-8 should be 7 and the rest.
I tried out various point distributions, and they didn't change much. None of them were as extreme as this proposal though, so let's give it a try.
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
There's no guarantee Life would gave continued winning had he not been banned. sOs for instance was maybe a top 5 HotS player (maybe, I would put him at #6) but didn't win anything in LotV. Life at his peak was getting between 1st and ro4 in almost every event, but that peak didn't actually last that long.
sOs didn't win anything in LotV but he reached 2 GSL finals and iirc 2 more finals in major tournaments. He has been terrible this year but overall this expansion wasn't that bad for him. Just failed in the finals this time.
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
Please stop using the word consensus when it doesn’t apply lmao
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
Please stop using the word consensus when it doesn’t apply lmao
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
It's the consensus outside of the people who express their opinion. Genius!
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
Yep i can only agree. Instead of just repeating what is perpetuated by these online communities and sc2 community figures, there are people like dtgoal who treat this question seriously and make sure the polling is done with diligence. Not everyone would go out on the street and ask the random sc2 fan on campuses, in bureaus, on the building sites around the country, in nursing homes, etc. They are only 2 posts in but i can smell the golden star already.
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
Yep i can only agree. Instead of just repeating what is perpetuated by these online communities and sc2 community figures, there are people like dtgoal who treat this question seriously and make sure the polling is done with diligence. Not everyone would go out on the street and ask the random sc2 fan on campuses, in bureaus, on the building sites around the country, in nursing homes, etc. They are only 2 posts in but i can smell the golden star already.
Yes! But it's a bit sad that we only have the results of those diligent social scientists that goes on TL and not the consensus of all those who do the hard work, but never go online. It really biased the results.
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
No problem, I always do my research and present facts
I don't mind some people thinking Maru is Goat, that's their opinion so it's cool.
But at the same time, just have to let them know that the consensus says he isn't top 3. Whether they want to accept the truth or not, that;s up to them.
Just like there are still some people that think the Earth it flat, when the consensus and facts says it isn't
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
No problem, I always do my research and present facts
I don't mind some people thinking Maru is Goat, that's their opinion so it's cool.
But at the same time, just have to let them know that the consensus says he isn't top 3. Whether they want to accept the truth or not, that;s up to them.
Just like there are still some people that think the Earth it flat, when the consensus and facts says it isn't
What consensus is this? Why is it the only people in this thread who use the word consensus use it to describe something that is absolutely not the consensus view?
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
No problem, I always do my research and present facts
I don't mind some people thinking Maru is Goat, that's their opinion so it's cool.
But at the same time, just have to let them know that the consensus says he isn't top 3. Whether they want to accept the truth or not, that;s up to them.
Just like there are still some people that think the Earth it flat, when the consensus and facts says it isn't
I can honestly say that the amount of research you've done shows. And that's a statement you can take to the bank.
People who have a different perception of the current super-clear consensus about Maru's place in the GOAT pantheon obviously are exactly the same as flat-earthers. I'm going to be unlike them and get on your side, unknown internet citizen who's posted 3 times in a forum and cites no sources! To do otherwise would be against all reason.
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
No problem, I always do my research and present facts
I don't mind some people thinking Maru is Goat, that's their opinion so it's cool.
But at the same time, just have to let them know that the consensus says he isn't top 3. Whether they want to accept the truth or not, that;s up to them.
Just like there are still some people that think the Earth it flat, when the consensus and facts says it isn't
I can honestly say that the amount of research you've done shows. And that's a statement you can take to the bank.
People who have a different perception of the current super-clear consensus about Maru's place in the GOAT pantheon obviously are exactly the same as flat-earthers. I'm going to be unlike them and get on your side, unknown internet citizen who's posted 3 times in a forum and cites no sources! To do otherwise would be against all reason.
Consensus don't need sources, well know fact among most people
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
No problem, I always do my research and present facts
I don't mind some people thinking Maru is Goat, that's their opinion so it's cool.
But at the same time, just have to let them know that the consensus says he isn't top 3. Whether they want to accept the truth or not, that;s up to them.
Just like there are still some people that think the Earth it flat, when the consensus and facts says it isn't
What consensus is this? Why is it the only people in this thread who use the word consensus use it to describe something that is absolutely not the consensus view?
Not a consensus on this forum, but it's a consensus view outside of this forum
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
No problem, I always do my research and present facts
I don't mind some people thinking Maru is Goat, that's their opinion so it's cool.
But at the same time, just have to let them know that the consensus says he isn't top 3. Whether they want to accept the truth or not, that;s up to them.
Just like there are still some people that think the Earth it flat, when the consensus and facts says it isn't
I can honestly say that the amount of research you've done shows. And that's a statement you can take to the bank.
People who have a different perception of the current super-clear consensus about Maru's place in the GOAT pantheon obviously are exactly the same as flat-earthers. I'm going to be unlike them and get on your side, unknown internet citizen who's posted 3 times in a forum and cites no sources! To do otherwise would be against all reason.
Consensus don't need sources, well know fact among most people
Yes, if they’re universally accepted i.e. an actual consensus sure.
On November 08 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: And there are still people doubting about Maru being GOAT. INno was before 2018 though
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
No problem, I always do my research and present facts
I don't mind some people thinking Maru is Goat, that's their opinion so it's cool.
But at the same time, just have to let them know that the consensus says he isn't top 3. Whether they want to accept the truth or not, that;s up to them.
Just like there are still some people that think the Earth it flat, when the consensus and facts says it isn't
I can honestly say that the amount of research you've done shows. And that's a statement you can take to the bank.
People who have a different perception of the current super-clear consensus about Maru's place in the GOAT pantheon obviously are exactly the same as flat-earthers. I'm going to be unlike them and get on your side, unknown internet citizen who's posted 3 times in a forum and cites no sources! To do otherwise would be against all reason.
Consensus don't need sources, well know fact among most people
On November 09 2019 04:38 TheAnarchy wrote: [quote]
Maru only play leagues and in a way less competitive era. Before that he only won 2 premier which is pretty mediocre at least. That’s why there is a consensus maru not top3.
So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
No problem, I always do my research and present facts
I don't mind some people thinking Maru is Goat, that's their opinion so it's cool.
But at the same time, just have to let them know that the consensus says he isn't top 3. Whether they want to accept the truth or not, that;s up to them.
Just like there are still some people that think the Earth it flat, when the consensus and facts says it isn't
I can honestly say that the amount of research you've done shows. And that's a statement you can take to the bank.
People who have a different perception of the current super-clear consensus about Maru's place in the GOAT pantheon obviously are exactly the same as flat-earthers. I'm going to be unlike them and get on your side, unknown internet citizen who's posted 3 times in a forum and cites no sources! To do otherwise would be against all reason.
Consensus don't need sources, well know fact among most people
Yes, if they’re universally accepted i.e. an actual consensus sure.
Not sure why everyone is so offended by this "consensus". Unless everyone here on TL really does think Maru is the Goat? Otherwise you guys are just agreeing with the rest of us who has the consensus he isn't
On November 09 2019 07:06 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] So much for the consensus that he lost the aforemention GOAT thing by 1 vote and was 2nd. Where does this consensus come from?
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
No problem, I always do my research and present facts
I don't mind some people thinking Maru is Goat, that's their opinion so it's cool.
But at the same time, just have to let them know that the consensus says he isn't top 3. Whether they want to accept the truth or not, that;s up to them.
Just like there are still some people that think the Earth it flat, when the consensus and facts says it isn't
I can honestly say that the amount of research you've done shows. And that's a statement you can take to the bank.
People who have a different perception of the current super-clear consensus about Maru's place in the GOAT pantheon obviously are exactly the same as flat-earthers. I'm going to be unlike them and get on your side, unknown internet citizen who's posted 3 times in a forum and cites no sources! To do otherwise would be against all reason.
Consensus don't need sources, well know fact among most people
Yes, if they’re universally accepted i.e. an actual consensus sure.
Not sure why everyone is so offended by this "consensus". Unless everyone here on TL really does think Maru is the Goat? Otherwise you guys are just agreeing with the rest of us who has the consensus he isn't
This guy knows what he is talking. He clearly knows about consensus. This kinda of topics always deviate because marus fans (the few he has) always try to avoid consensus with facts and graphics. If there is a consensus there is no need of overwhelming amount of facts or graphics. The consensus is already there and is the end of history. Maru not top 3 period. Life the goat and maybe serral in the future.
A few people on TL forum voting does not represent the SC2 community
The community has a consensus that Maru isn't even top 3.
Consensus that life is the GOAT soon to be taken over by Serral by the end of next year. The new Goat
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
No problem, I always do my research and present facts
I don't mind some people thinking Maru is Goat, that's their opinion so it's cool.
But at the same time, just have to let them know that the consensus says he isn't top 3. Whether they want to accept the truth or not, that;s up to them.
Just like there are still some people that think the Earth it flat, when the consensus and facts says it isn't
I can honestly say that the amount of research you've done shows. And that's a statement you can take to the bank.
People who have a different perception of the current super-clear consensus about Maru's place in the GOAT pantheon obviously are exactly the same as flat-earthers. I'm going to be unlike them and get on your side, unknown internet citizen who's posted 3 times in a forum and cites no sources! To do otherwise would be against all reason.
Consensus don't need sources, well know fact among most people
Yes, if they’re universally accepted i.e. an actual consensus sure.
Not sure why everyone is so offended by this "consensus". Unless everyone here on TL really does think Maru is the Goat? Otherwise you guys are just agreeing with the rest of us who has the consensus he isn't
This guy knows what he is talking. He clearly knows about consensus. This kinda of topics always deviate because marus fans (the few he has) always try to avoid consensus with facts and graphics. If there is a consensus there is no need of overwhelming amount of facts or graphics. The consensus is already there and is the end of history. Maru not top 3 period. Life the goat and maybe serral in the future.
Wow, it's really lucky that a total stranger happened to join the forum to agree with you! That's really coincidental timing, you know? This whole consensus business must be a real thing, despite the fact that no source I've been in contact with has given me any reason to agree with you two. I'm starting to think that this "consensus" you're talking about is closer to some arbitrary metaphysical idea than something that exists in our common physical reality. Anyone ever told you you'd make a good cult leader?
On November 10 2019 04:17 neutralrobot wrote: [quote]
I guess the real sc2 community is some shadowy cabal that doesn't show itself online.
Like any forum
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
No problem, I always do my research and present facts
I don't mind some people thinking Maru is Goat, that's their opinion so it's cool.
But at the same time, just have to let them know that the consensus says he isn't top 3. Whether they want to accept the truth or not, that;s up to them.
Just like there are still some people that think the Earth it flat, when the consensus and facts says it isn't
I can honestly say that the amount of research you've done shows. And that's a statement you can take to the bank.
People who have a different perception of the current super-clear consensus about Maru's place in the GOAT pantheon obviously are exactly the same as flat-earthers. I'm going to be unlike them and get on your side, unknown internet citizen who's posted 3 times in a forum and cites no sources! To do otherwise would be against all reason.
Consensus don't need sources, well know fact among most people
Yes, if they’re universally accepted i.e. an actual consensus sure.
Not sure why everyone is so offended by this "consensus". Unless everyone here on TL really does think Maru is the Goat? Otherwise you guys are just agreeing with the rest of us who has the consensus he isn't
This guy knows what he is talking. He clearly knows about consensus. This kinda of topics always deviate because marus fans (the few he has) always try to avoid consensus with facts and graphics. If there is a consensus there is no need of overwhelming amount of facts or graphics. The consensus is already there and is the end of history. Maru not top 3 period. Life the goat and maybe serral in the future.
Wow, it's really lucky that a total stranger happened to join the forum to agree with you! That's really coincidental timing, you know? This whole consensus business must be a real thing, despite the fact that no source I've been in contact with has given me any reason to agree with you two. I'm starting to think that this "consensus" you're talking about is closer to some arbitrary metaphysical idea than something that exists in our common physical reality. Anyone ever told you you'd make a good cult leader?
To be fair, I don’t know that poster
I just had to post and agree with him because he is right about the consensus
It is my duty as a responsible member of the sc2 majority community to let you guys know what the consensus of the public is.
You guys are free to believe Maru is goat and stuff
I just believe is wrong that you guys are calling names and insulting other posters because they don’t share your own opinion and agenda . When the consensus has already been set in stones.
forum = die hard fans, but minority of the fanbase.
Only on SC2 forum will people tell you maru is the goat since most posters are terran bias
Ask most fans outside of forum? Well it's a landslide and consensus that he isn't even top 3 or top 5. Won in a very weak korean scene era
Well thanks for making an account to let us know. And thanks for doing such extensive field research also. When you're walled in by communities like TL and reddit and twitch streamers and tournament commentators, it's easy to get a skewed view.
No problem, I always do my research and present facts
I don't mind some people thinking Maru is Goat, that's their opinion so it's cool.
But at the same time, just have to let them know that the consensus says he isn't top 3. Whether they want to accept the truth or not, that;s up to them.
Just like there are still some people that think the Earth it flat, when the consensus and facts says it isn't
I can honestly say that the amount of research you've done shows. And that's a statement you can take to the bank.
People who have a different perception of the current super-clear consensus about Maru's place in the GOAT pantheon obviously are exactly the same as flat-earthers. I'm going to be unlike them and get on your side, unknown internet citizen who's posted 3 times in a forum and cites no sources! To do otherwise would be against all reason.
Consensus don't need sources, well know fact among most people
Yes, if they’re universally accepted i.e. an actual consensus sure.
Not sure why everyone is so offended by this "consensus". Unless everyone here on TL really does think Maru is the Goat? Otherwise you guys are just agreeing with the rest of us who has the consensus he isn't
This guy knows what he is talking. He clearly knows about consensus. This kinda of topics always deviate because marus fans (the few he has) always try to avoid consensus with facts and graphics. If there is a consensus there is no need of overwhelming amount of facts or graphics. The consensus is already there and is the end of history. Maru not top 3 period. Life the goat and maybe serral in the future.
Wow, it's really lucky that a total stranger happened to join the forum to agree with you! That's really coincidental timing, you know? This whole consensus business must be a real thing, despite the fact that no source I've been in contact with has given me any reason to agree with you two. I'm starting to think that this "consensus" you're talking about is closer to some arbitrary metaphysical idea than something that exists in our common physical reality. Anyone ever told you you'd make a good cult leader?
To be fair, I don’t know that poster
I just had to post and agree with him because he is right about the consensus
It is my duty as a responsible member of the sc2 majority community to let you guys know what the consensus of the public is.
You guys are free to believe Maru is goat and stuff
I just believe is wrong that you guys are calling names and insulting other posters because they don’t share your own opinion and agenda . When the consensus has already been set in stones.
yeah was a bit of a let down, still overall I did enjoy the tournament despite the ludicrous zerg imbalance lol
A process of decision-making that seeks widespread agreement among group members.
Imo, this is the most useful definition/use of the word consensus. There has to be a defined decision rule[1] which we'll use to reach a final decision. It can be Unanimity vote, majority/supermajority, or by the verdict of a person-in-charge or governing committee.
I suspect that the decision rule[1] used in large scale non-structured spectator community like ours is decision by Writers and Commentators. Whoever Writers write as the best and Commentators say as the best; is for sure highly influencial. This is not to say that Writers and Commentators cannot be influenced as well; but whatever they Write/Speak will have the most views/reads. Ofc, I don't like this Sheep's way; but it is the reality I suspect.
On November 11 2019 18:36 Harris1st wrote: I just want to chime in really quick and say that the last 2 pages of this thread made my monday. Had to laugh out multiple times :D
I think the consensus is that laughing is a good thing in this world
And you are wrong again. I spoke to many people in real life (you know, outside this forum) and most people agree that the consensus around laughing is that its not even that good of a thing. I would say that being joyful is the undisputed good thing, but we could see a rise of the "smiling purposefully" in the top 3 as soon as next year.
On November 11 2019 18:36 Harris1st wrote: I just want to chime in really quick and say that the last 2 pages of this thread made my monday. Had to laugh out multiple times :D
I think the consensus is that laughing is a good thing in this world
And you are wrong again. I spoke to many people in real life (you know, outside this forum) and most people agree that the consensus around laughing is that its not even that good of a thing. I would say that being joyful is the undisputed good thing, but we could see a rise of the "smiling purposefully" in the top 3 as soon as next year.
By letting us know that you spoke to people in real life, you've revealed a little too much about how you came to your conclusions for me to take you seriously. Real consensus just is.
This comunity just over analyze things. If is said that there is a consensus there is no need to discuss anymore. The is no need to define consensus or know how it was made or the source you must just trust that’s how democracy works.
On November 13 2019 11:02 TheAnarchy wrote: This comunity just over analyze things. If is said that there is a consensus there is no need to discuss anymore. The is no need to define consensus or know how it was made or the source you must just trust that’s how democracy works.
Yeah, true. Like if I declare there's a consensus that I should be president of the USA, nobody should ask what I mean, or among whom the consensus exists or how I know. There's no need to discuss anymore. They should just trust that's how democracy works.
On November 13 2019 11:02 TheAnarchy wrote: This comunity just over analyze things. If is said that there is a consensus there is no need to discuss anymore. The is no need to define consensus or know how it was made or the source you must just trust that’s how democracy works.
Finally caught up with the games of the WCS Global Finals. Congratulations to Dark! His play from the quarterfinals onwards looked flawless to me as a casual viewer. Very impressive.
The series I enjoyed the most in this tournament was the first match between Maru and TIME (Group B). Other matches I enjoyed a lot were Classic vs HeRoMaRinE (Group C), herO vs Reynor (Group D), Classic vs Rogue (Quarterfinals) and Serral vs Reynor (Semifinals).
The Swarmhost/Nydus strategy seemed overpowered to me. I hope the recent patch fixes this.
EPT
Patch 4.3.0
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/cfiZibR.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/gn70D63.png)
