On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
There's no guarantee Life would gave continued winning had he not been banned. sOs for instance was maybe a top 5 HotS player (maybe, I would put him at #6) but didn't win anything in LotV. Life at his peak was getting between 1st and ro4 in almost every event, but that peak didn't actually last that long.
As fir Zest, he's the most dominant protoss without question. He tied Maru and INno for most korean wins in a given year, except he did it in a year with fewer tournaments. Bonus points because he also led KT to a proleague win that year.
Funny how he ended KT with a failed cannon rush at match point in the last finals of ProLeague. That is when Zest started his downhill. He'd always slaughter Trap before then.
As for sOs, he won IEM Season X - Taipei 4:2 against ByuN. 3 months into LotV. Although several months later, ByuN reached Super Saiyan 4 and kill sOs' 4:1 in Code S finals. Almost exactly 1 year later, he would then lose to another Terran, INnoVation 3:4 in another Code S finals.
All the GOAT discussions in this thread inspired me to do some statistics. I collected the results of all starleagues (OSL, SSL, GSL) in SC2 and distributed points accordingly.
The results in a scatter plot (y-axis = number of starleague appearances [including failed qualification]; x-axis = summed up points)
It is pretty clear that Maru, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, Stats, soO, herO, Zest, Dear, Solar, PartinG, MarineKing, NesTea, Mvp, Rain, Life, Soulkey are the players with remarkable performances starleague-wise.
On November 08 2019 02:26 Darkdwarf wrote: All the GOAT discussions in this thread inspired me to do some statistics. I collected the results of all starleagues (OSL, SSL, GSL) in SC2 and distributed points accordingly.
The results in a scatter plot (y-axis = number of starleague appearances [including failed qualification]; x-axis = summed up points)
It is pretty clear that Maru, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, Stats, soO, herO, Zest, Dear, Solar, PartinG, MarineKing, NesTea, Mvp, Rain, Life, Soulkey are the players with remarkable performances starleague-wise.
Kespa cup (Iron squid) and blizzcon are in the mix? Because they are starleagues. Its weird Nestea has more starleagues played then life. I dont know its kinda strange. Anyway is a good graphic but doesnt take in consideration the lvl of competition.
On November 08 2019 00:18 nojok wrote: If we look at the broader picture and take into account the entertainment provided by the players, MC is number 1 imo.
Nope. There is a concensus the most entertaining player of all time is actually IdrA.
For me anyway, he had a perfect blend of being the foreign hope, actually being good, the antihero vibe and a frequently terrible mentality too.
On November 08 2019 02:26 Darkdwarf wrote: All the GOAT discussions in this thread inspired me to do some statistics. I collected the results of all starleagues (OSL, SSL, GSL) in SC2 and distributed points accordingly.
The results in a scatter plot (y-axis = number of starleague appearances [including failed qualification]; x-axis = summed up points)
It is pretty clear that Maru, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, Stats, soO, herO, Zest, Dear, Solar, PartinG, MarineKing, NesTea, Mvp, Rain, Life, Soulkey are the players with remarkable performances starleague-wise.
Kespa cup (Iron squid) and blizzcon are in the mix? Because they are starleagues. Its weird Nestea has more starleagues played then life. Leenock played almost same starleagues as Life and has almost double points. I dont know its kinda strange. Anyway is a good graphic but doesnt take in consideration the lvl of competition.
They pretty clearly aren't since they aren't league tournament.
Anyway I'm surprised how well Gumiho performed overall, always underappreciated
I don't really agree with the failed qualification having points retracted. It shouldn't really matter if they transferred to SC2 while already in their prime (e.g innovation) or worked up to being an elite player during SC2 (e.g Maru). No one cares if Serral wasn't a top player for the first five years of his career.
On November 08 2019 03:26 Fango wrote: I don't really agree with the failed qualification having points retracted. It shouldn't really matter if they transferred to SC2 while already in their prime (e.g innovation) or worked up to being an elite player during SC2 (e.g Maru).
I agree. Also top spots should have more points. Being champ in every sports give twice as second (example tennis, golf, box, etc). First should be like 30, second 15, third and fourth 10, 5-8 should be 7 and the rest.
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
There's no guarantee Life would gave continued winning had he not been banned. sOs for instance was maybe a top 5 HotS player (maybe, I would put him at #6) but didn't win anything in LotV. Life at his peak was getting between 1st and ro4 in almost every event, but that peak didn't actually last that long.
As fir Zest, he's the most dominant protoss without question. He tied Maru and INno for most korean wins in a given year, except he did it in a year with fewer tournaments. Bonus points because he also led KT to a proleague win that year.
I guess Life would have won something but we have no way to find this out.
It's very hard to appropriately rank the most accomplished korean Protoss, there are a handful almost tied in achievements; maybe Zest had the most dominant year out of every Protoss, but MC was just the Protoss race in Korea for two years, he can't be discarded just because it happened during WoL.
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
Yeah there is a concensus Life is the goat. If he wasnt banned he would have 20 or more premiers and like 7 gsl at least. But we cant say it because he was banned. Same as Savior. Life was the last good player and defined the last era of good sc2. Since then Inno continued a bit the lvl and after that 0 lvl.
Can people stop saying there’s a consensus when there isn’t any such thing? A good argument for Life being up there sure, but that’s not what a consensus is.
It’s not particularly similar to Savior either, Savior’s seemingly unbeatable ZvP was cracked by Bisu and he never really adjusted to that innovation, and unlike Life he didn’t turn to getting involved in betting activities when he was at the top of his powers, indeed the decline of his powers were likely a reason as to why he did.
‘Last good player’ is just a preposterous statement.
To add: An example of a consensus is Flash being GOAT of BW.
On that note, can we recreate the graphs used here for SC2? - Bonjwa
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
I just cant understand why Life is so damn overrated in these discussions ?? He was a very good player for a very short time and thats it. Dark and Serral for example surpass his achievements by far and are even more dominant than he ever was. "If he wasnt banned".....well he screwed himself so well never know. But I would guess probably not.
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
I just cant understand why Life is so damn overrated in these discussions ?? He was a very good player for a very short time and thats it. Dark and Serral for example surpass his achievements by far and are even more dominant than he ever was. "If he wasnt banned".....well he screwed himself so well never know. But I would guess probably not.
He made 3 GSL code S finals (won 2), 2 Blizzcon finals (won 1) in the golden era of SC2. None of Dark/Serral has tied him in achievement. That era was filled by monsters at their peak skills (both mechanic and strategy), 2018- 2019 is not even close to that level of competition.
On November 08 2019 02:26 Darkdwarf wrote: All the GOAT discussions in this thread inspired me to do some statistics. I collected the results of all starleagues (OSL, SSL, GSL) in SC2 and distributed points accordingly.
The results in a scatter plot (y-axis = number of starleague appearances [including failed qualification]; x-axis = summed up points)
It is pretty clear that Maru, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, Stats, soO, herO, Zest, Dear, Solar, PartinG, MarineKing, NesTea, Mvp, Rain, Life, Soulkey are the players with remarkable performances starleague-wise.
Kespa cup (Iron squid) and blizzcon are in the mix? Because they are starleagues. Its weird Nestea has more starleagues played then life. Leenock played almost same starleagues as Life and has almost double points. I dont know its kinda strange. Anyway is a good graphic but doesnt take in consideration the lvl of competition.
They pretty clearly aren't since they aren't league tournament.
Anyway I'm surprised how well Gumiho performed overall, always underappreciated
Also: thanks it's neat!
The graphic is only based on OSL, SSL and GSL. Partly that's just my preference of what's the most important tournaments in our game, and partly that's because they're (mostly) uniform in structure.
On November 08 2019 03:26 Fango wrote: I don't really agree with the failed qualification having points retracted. It shouldn't really matter if they transferred to SC2 while already in their prime (e.g innovation) or worked up to being an elite player during SC2 (e.g Maru).
I agree. Also top spots should have more points. Being champ in every sports give twice as second (example tennis, golf, box, etc). First should be like 30, second 15, third and fourth 10, 5-8 should be 7 and the rest.
I tried out various point distributions, and they didn't change much. None of them were as extreme as this proposal though, so let's give it a try.
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote: Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
There's no guarantee Life would gave continued winning had he not been banned. sOs for instance was maybe a top 5 HotS player (maybe, I would put him at #6) but didn't win anything in LotV. Life at his peak was getting between 1st and ro4 in almost every event, but that peak didn't actually last that long.
sOs didn't win anything in LotV but he reached 2 GSL finals and iirc 2 more finals in major tournaments. He has been terrible this year but overall this expansion wasn't that bad for him. Just failed in the finals this time.
WCS![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/cfiZibR.png)
Bonjwa![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/gn70D63.png)
