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Dark wins the 2019 WCS Global Finals - Page 15

Forum Index > SC2 General
339 CommentsPost a Reply
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ProFalseIdol
Profile Joined June 2018
70 Posts
November 07 2019 15:46 GMT
#281
On November 08 2019 00:11 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote:
Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...

There's no guarantee Life would gave continued winning had he not been banned. sOs for instance was maybe a top 5 HotS player (maybe, I would put him at #6) but didn't win anything in LotV. Life at his peak was getting between 1st and ro4 in almost every event, but that peak didn't actually last that long.

As fir Zest, he's the most dominant protoss without question. He tied Maru and INno for most korean wins in a given year, except he did it in a year with fewer tournaments. Bonus points because he also led KT to a proleague win that year.


Funny how he ended KT with a failed cannon rush at match point in the last finals of ProLeague. That is when Zest started his downhill. He'd always slaughter Trap before then.

As for sOs, he won IEM Season X - Taipei 4:2 against ByuN. 3 months into LotV. Although several months later, ByuN reached Super Saiyan 4 and kill sOs' 4:1 in Code S finals. Almost exactly 1 year later, he would then lose to another Terran, INnoVation 3:4 in another Code S finals.
Darkdwarf
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Sweden960 Posts
November 07 2019 17:26 GMT
#282
All the GOAT discussions in this thread inspired me to do some statistics. I collected the results of all starleagues (OSL, SSL, GSL) in SC2 and distributed points accordingly.

Failed qualification = -1 points
25-32 = 1 points
17-24 = 2 points
13-16 = 3 points
9-13 = 4 points
5-8 = 5 points
3-4 = 7 points
2 = 10 points
1 = 15 points

The results in a scatter plot (y-axis = number of starleague appearances [including failed qualification]; x-axis = summed up points)

[image loading]

It is pretty clear that Maru, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, Stats, soO, herO, Zest, Dear, Solar, PartinG, MarineKing, NesTea, Mvp, Rain, Life, Soulkey are the players with remarkable performances starleague-wise.
Teams: IM, Jin Air, Invictus || Players: Maru, GuMiho, INnoVation, Ryung, sOs, Squirtle, NaNiwa, Has, Zoun, Life, Rogue, Dark
TheAnarchy
Profile Joined January 2010
Chile1105 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-07 18:28:10
November 07 2019 18:03 GMT
#283
On November 08 2019 02:26 Darkdwarf wrote:
All the GOAT discussions in this thread inspired me to do some statistics. I collected the results of all starleagues (OSL, SSL, GSL) in SC2 and distributed points accordingly.

Failed qualification = -1 points
25-32 = 1 points
17-24 = 2 points
13-16 = 3 points
9-13 = 4 points
5-8 = 5 points
3-4 = 7 points
2 = 10 points
1 = 15 points

The results in a scatter plot (y-axis = number of starleague appearances [including failed qualification]; x-axis = summed up points)

[image loading]

It is pretty clear that Maru, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, Stats, soO, herO, Zest, Dear, Solar, PartinG, MarineKing, NesTea, Mvp, Rain, Life, Soulkey are the players with remarkable performances starleague-wise.


Kespa cup (Iron squid) and blizzcon are in the mix? Because they are starleagues. Its weird Nestea has more starleagues played then life. I dont know its kinda strange.
Anyway is a good graphic but doesnt take in consideration the lvl of competition.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25207 Posts
November 07 2019 18:05 GMT
#284
On November 08 2019 00:40 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 08 2019 00:18 nojok wrote:
If we look at the broader picture and take into account the entertainment provided by the players, MC is number 1 imo.

Nope. There is a concensus the most entertaining player of all time is actually IdrA.

For me anyway, he had a perfect blend of being the foreign hope, actually being good, the antihero vibe and a frequently terrible mentality too.

Those MLG days were glorious fun
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-07 18:43:36
November 07 2019 18:07 GMT
#285
On November 08 2019 03:03 TheAnarchy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 08 2019 02:26 Darkdwarf wrote:
All the GOAT discussions in this thread inspired me to do some statistics. I collected the results of all starleagues (OSL, SSL, GSL) in SC2 and distributed points accordingly.

Failed qualification = -1 points
25-32 = 1 points
17-24 = 2 points
13-16 = 3 points
9-13 = 4 points
5-8 = 5 points
3-4 = 7 points
2 = 10 points
1 = 15 points

The results in a scatter plot (y-axis = number of starleague appearances [including failed qualification]; x-axis = summed up points)

[image loading]

It is pretty clear that Maru, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, Stats, soO, herO, Zest, Dear, Solar, PartinG, MarineKing, NesTea, Mvp, Rain, Life, Soulkey are the players with remarkable performances starleague-wise.


Kespa cup (Iron squid) and blizzcon are in the mix? Because they are starleagues. Its weird Nestea has more starleagues played then life. Leenock played almost same starleagues as Life and has almost double points. I dont know its kinda strange.
Anyway is a good graphic but doesnt take in consideration the lvl of competition.


They pretty clearly aren't since they aren't league tournament.

Anyway I'm surprised how well Gumiho performed overall, always underappreciated

Also: thanks it's neat!
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12829 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-07 18:10:22
November 07 2019 18:10 GMT
#286
My boy MarineKing still one of the greats
WriterMaru
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-07 18:49:32
November 07 2019 18:24 GMT
#287
I guess those are only korean Starleagues; merely watching this, it says Rain>Life, Mvp>Nestea, Dark>Classic>Stats>Zest>herO>Dear.

This graphic is very helpful but it may be highlighting consistency above titles won.
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-07 18:48:14
November 07 2019 18:26 GMT
#288
I don't really agree with the failed qualification having points retracted. It shouldn't really matter if they transferred to SC2 while already in their prime (e.g innovation) or worked up to being an elite player during SC2 (e.g Maru). No one cares if Serral wasn't a top player for the first five years of his career.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
November 07 2019 18:27 GMT
#289
On November 08 2019 03:10 Poopi wrote:
My boy MarineKing still one of the greats

It helps that the only time he was good we had a starleague a month
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
TheAnarchy
Profile Joined January 2010
Chile1105 Posts
November 07 2019 18:32 GMT
#290
On November 08 2019 03:26 Fango wrote:
I don't really agree with the failed qualification having points retracted. It shouldn't really matter if they transferred to SC2 while already in their prime (e.g innovation) or worked up to being an elite player during SC2 (e.g Maru).


I agree. Also top spots should have more points. Being champ in every sports give twice as second (example tennis, golf, box, etc). First should be like 30, second 15, third and fourth 10, 5-8 should be 7 and the rest.
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
November 07 2019 20:26 GMT
#291
On November 08 2019 00:11 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote:
Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...

There's no guarantee Life would gave continued winning had he not been banned. sOs for instance was maybe a top 5 HotS player (maybe, I would put him at #6) but didn't win anything in LotV. Life at his peak was getting between 1st and ro4 in almost every event, but that peak didn't actually last that long.

As fir Zest, he's the most dominant protoss without question. He tied Maru and INno for most korean wins in a given year, except he did it in a year with fewer tournaments. Bonus points because he also led KT to a proleague win that year.


I guess Life would have won something but we have no way to find this out.

It's very hard to appropriately rank the most accomplished korean Protoss, there are a handful almost tied in achievements; maybe Zest had the most dominant year out of every Protoss, but MC was just the Protoss race in Korea for two years, he can't be discarded just because it happened during WoL.
tskarzyn
Profile Joined July 2010
United States516 Posts
November 07 2019 21:24 GMT
#292
Sorry, but the only thing Zest is top-5 in is floating minerals. Stats and Classic both rank higher imo
ProFalseIdol
Profile Joined June 2018
70 Posts
November 08 2019 00:41 GMT
#293
On November 08 2019 00:43 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 08 2019 00:33 TheAnarchy wrote:
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote:
Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...


Yeah there is a concensus Life is the goat. If he wasnt banned he would have 20 or more premiers and like 7 gsl at least. But we cant say it because he was banned.
Same as Savior. Life was the last good player and defined the last era of good sc2. Since then Inno continued a bit the lvl and after that 0 lvl.

Can people stop saying there’s a consensus when there isn’t any such thing? A good argument for Life being up there sure, but that’s not what a consensus is.

It’s not particularly similar to Savior either, Savior’s seemingly unbeatable ZvP was cracked by Bisu and he never really adjusted to that innovation, and unlike Life he didn’t turn to getting involved in betting activities when he was at the top of his powers, indeed the decline of his powers were likely a reason as to why he did.

‘Last good player’ is just a preposterous statement.


To add: An example of a consensus is Flash being GOAT of BW.

On that note, can we recreate the graphs used here for SC2? - (Wiki)Bonjwa
Starcloud
Profile Joined September 2018
137 Posts
November 08 2019 03:16 GMT
#294
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote:
Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...


I just cant understand why Life is so damn overrated in these discussions ?? He was a very good player for a very short time and thats it. Dark and Serral for example surpass his achievements by far and are even more dominant than he ever was. "If he wasnt banned".....well he screwed himself so well never know. But I would guess probably not.
ParksonVN
Profile Joined October 2015
Australia370 Posts
November 08 2019 04:33 GMT
#295
On November 08 2019 12:16 Starcloud wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote:
Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...


I just cant understand why Life is so damn overrated in these discussions ?? He was a very good player for a very short time and thats it. Dark and Serral for example surpass his achievements by far and are even more dominant than he ever was. "If he wasnt banned".....well he screwed himself so well never know. But I would guess probably not.


He made 3 GSL code S finals (won 2), 2 Blizzcon finals (won 1) in the golden era of SC2. None of Dark/Serral has tied him in achievement. That era was filled by monsters at their peak skills (both mechanic and strategy), 2018- 2019 is not even close to that level of competition.
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-08 05:25:35
November 08 2019 05:18 GMT
#296
mkp had promise he was just too much of a headcase to be a true gosu
+ Show Spoiler +
and also a matchfixing ass hole


User was warned for this post.
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-08 07:47:23
November 08 2019 07:46 GMT
#297
On November 08 2019 14:18 Alejandrisha wrote:
mkp had promise he was just too much of a headcase to be a true gosu
+ Show Spoiler +
and also a matchfixing ass hole

Was the matchfixing ever proven? I believe not, so...

Edit> Or is this another "general consensus" we can't generally agree upon?
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Darkdwarf
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Sweden960 Posts
November 08 2019 08:41 GMT
#298
On November 08 2019 03:07 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 08 2019 03:03 TheAnarchy wrote:
On November 08 2019 02:26 Darkdwarf wrote:
All the GOAT discussions in this thread inspired me to do some statistics. I collected the results of all starleagues (OSL, SSL, GSL) in SC2 and distributed points accordingly.

Failed qualification = -1 points
25-32 = 1 points
17-24 = 2 points
13-16 = 3 points
9-13 = 4 points
5-8 = 5 points
3-4 = 7 points
2 = 10 points
1 = 15 points

The results in a scatter plot (y-axis = number of starleague appearances [including failed qualification]; x-axis = summed up points)

[image loading]

It is pretty clear that Maru, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, Stats, soO, herO, Zest, Dear, Solar, PartinG, MarineKing, NesTea, Mvp, Rain, Life, Soulkey are the players with remarkable performances starleague-wise.


Kespa cup (Iron squid) and blizzcon are in the mix? Because they are starleagues. Its weird Nestea has more starleagues played then life. Leenock played almost same starleagues as Life and has almost double points. I dont know its kinda strange.
Anyway is a good graphic but doesnt take in consideration the lvl of competition.


They pretty clearly aren't since they aren't league tournament.

Anyway I'm surprised how well Gumiho performed overall, always underappreciated

Also: thanks it's neat!


The graphic is only based on OSL, SSL and GSL. Partly that's just my preference of what's the most important tournaments in our game, and partly that's because they're (mostly) uniform in structure.

On November 08 2019 03:32 TheAnarchy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 08 2019 03:26 Fango wrote:
I don't really agree with the failed qualification having points retracted. It shouldn't really matter if they transferred to SC2 while already in their prime (e.g innovation) or worked up to being an elite player during SC2 (e.g Maru).


I agree. Also top spots should have more points. Being champ in every sports give twice as second (example tennis, golf, box, etc). First should be like 30, second 15, third and fourth 10, 5-8 should be 7 and the rest.


I tried out various point distributions, and they didn't change much. None of them were as extreme as this proposal though, so let's give it a try.

[image loading]


Teams: IM, Jin Air, Invictus || Players: Maru, GuMiho, INnoVation, Ryung, sOs, Squirtle, NaNiwa, Has, Zoun, Life, Rogue, Dark
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
November 08 2019 09:25 GMT
#299
Thus proven Maru to be god in StarLeagues Nice!
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
leublix
Profile Joined May 2017
493 Posts
November 08 2019 10:32 GMT
#300
On November 08 2019 00:11 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote:
Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...

There's no guarantee Life would gave continued winning had he not been banned. sOs for instance was maybe a top 5 HotS player (maybe, I would put him at #6) but didn't win anything in LotV. Life at his peak was getting between 1st and ro4 in almost every event, but that peak didn't actually last that long.

sOs didn't win anything in LotV but he reached 2 GSL finals and iirc 2 more finals in major tournaments. He has been terrible this year but overall this expansion wasn't that bad for him. Just failed in the finals this time.
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