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Dark wins the 2019 WCS Global Finals - Page 14

Forum Index > SC2 General
339 CommentsPost a Reply
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starkiller123
Profile Joined January 2016
United States4030 Posts
November 07 2019 02:55 GMT
#261
On November 07 2019 11:34 Xain0n wrote:
I'll never agree with these lists, too much focused on KeSpa era and giving Code S a disproportionate relevance.

I mean its only the historically hardest and most competitive tournament across the entire lifetime of Starcraft 2, probably not worth much right?
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25188 Posts
November 07 2019 03:01 GMT
#262
On November 07 2019 11:55 starkiller123 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2019 11:34 Xain0n wrote:
I'll never agree with these lists, too much focused on KeSpa era and giving Code S a disproportionate relevance.

I mean its only the historically hardest and most competitive tournament across the entire lifetime of Starcraft 2, probably not worth much right?

I think he’s right on the Kespa focus though.

The old guard helped figure out the game and how to play it, people too frequently discard that aspect of a strategy game. So guys like MC and Nestea are frequently undervalued.

An extreme analogy to make the point but if I singularly figured out every standard strategy in the game, and someone else came along and just executed a bit better, who’s worthy of more praise?
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
ParksonVN
Profile Joined October 2015
Australia370 Posts
November 07 2019 03:51 GMT
#263
No matter what your opinion is, the best 5 players of all time must be: InnoVation, Maru, MVP, Life and Zest, of which Inno is the best in history, he could be 2nd if Maru wins more code S/Blizzcon/IEM Katowice in next year. Though i hope Inno is not done with SC2 yet, he clearly has the skills ans is still young, just lost motivation.
starkiller123
Profile Joined January 2016
United States4030 Posts
November 07 2019 04:33 GMT
#264
On November 07 2019 12:51 ParksonVN wrote:
No matter what your opinion is, the best 5 players of all time must be: InnoVation, Maru, MVP, Life and Zest, of which Inno is the best in history, he could be 2nd if Maru wins more code S/Blizzcon/IEM Katowice in next year. Though i hope Inno is not done with SC2 yet, he clearly has the skills ans is still young, just lost motivation.

Zest may be top 10 but I disagree with including him as clear top 5
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10142 Posts
November 07 2019 05:52 GMT
#265
Have to give props to the authors for well-founded and well-rounded cynicism approaching not only the analysis of the tournament but also the SC2 talking points as of late. Cheers for the good review.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15937 Posts
November 07 2019 06:53 GMT
#266
On November 07 2019 08:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2019 06:24 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 07 2019 05:41 Wombat_NI wrote:
On November 07 2019 04:21 TheAnarchy wrote:
On November 07 2019 04:13 Fango wrote:
On November 07 2019 04:06 TheAnarchy wrote:
On November 07 2019 04:04 Fango wrote:
On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:
On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:
On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote:
[quote]

I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos.


soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.

MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere.


MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me.

This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.


Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)

Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.


Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments.
Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).

Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career.

Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague)

I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10.
Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era.
People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated.
The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain


I'd probably replace herO/Rain with soO but otherwise I can't really dispute anyone else in your top 10 list.

Edit: If the list was in order, I would say Dark should be above Stats and sOs and Zest are bit too high but otherwise I agree with it. If I had to make a list it would look something like

1. INnoVation (I think he's tied with Maru in achievements but succeeded in a tougher era with better winrates)
2. Maru
3. Life
4. Mvp
5. Dark
6. sOs
7. Stats
8. Zest
9. soO
10. Classic

My bad I forgot about soO - obviously he's top 10
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
November 07 2019 07:43 GMT
#267
idc how much they pay me i'm not kissing a trophy. ever.
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
November 07 2019 08:03 GMT
#268
On November 07 2019 12:51 ParksonVN wrote:
No matter what your opinion is, the best 5 players of all time must be: InnoVation, Maru, MVP, Life and Zest, of which Inno is the best in history, he could be 2nd if Maru wins more code S/Blizzcon/IEM Katowice in next year. Though i hope Inno is not done with SC2 yet, he clearly has the skills ans is still young, just lost motivation.

Why Zest? Why not Classic? result-wise sOs? (while I don't think he should be there he has 3 WC titles IIRC)
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
ParksonVN
Profile Joined October 2015
Australia370 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-07 08:29:45
November 07 2019 08:29 GMT
#269
On November 07 2019 17:03 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2019 12:51 ParksonVN wrote:
No matter what your opinion is, the best 5 players of all time must be: InnoVation, Maru, MVP, Life and Zest, of which Inno is the best in history, he could be 2nd if Maru wins more code S/Blizzcon/IEM Katowice in next year. Though i hope Inno is not done with SC2 yet, he clearly has the skills ans is still young, just lost motivation.

Why Zest? Why not Classic? result-wise sOs? (while I don't think he should be there he has 3 WC titles IIRC)


None of these had such incredible year like Zest in 2014. It's also about period of domination, not only result.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12818 Posts
November 07 2019 08:43 GMT
#270
Kespa era is a bit overrated, don’t you guys remember that the game was in a horrendous state multiplayer times during said era?
Broodlord / infestor (Roro used it so I guess they came at this moment), swarmhost infinite games, blink era, mech super strong era...
Whereas MC/NesTea/MVP thrived in less obnoxious eras.
GomTvT had an echo because it was hard dropping out of code S, but clearly other than Broodlord / infestor, WoL was a much better game than HotS.

Kespa came at the wrong time and quit too early
WriterMaru
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
November 07 2019 08:56 GMT
#271
On November 07 2019 17:43 Poopi wrote:
Kespa era is a bit overrated, don’t you guys remember that the game was in a horrendous state multiplayer times during said era?
Broodlord / infestor (Roro used it so I guess they came at this moment), swarmhost infinite games, blink era, mech super strong era...
Whereas MC/NesTea/MVP thrived in less obnoxious eras.
GomTvT had an echo because it was hard dropping out of code S, but clearly other than Broodlord / infestor, WoL was a much better game than HotS.

Kespa came at the wrong time and quit too early


That's just your rosy glasses of nostalgia my friend. Especially MC, NesTea and MVP were most relevant in the first few years and in that period, the game was complete shit. We did not really know that back then, because we did not know better, but the small and terrible maps, rushes, 4gates and whatnot meant that this era was not great at all.

Also someone above wrote that Taeja was "top 3 in the world", which is completely absurd. Maybe people read too many stuchiu articles and this has scarred their rational thinking centers? Taeja was a superb player, but he was mostly a foreign circuit havester, he made Ro4 in GSL afair, but that's still not enough.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
ProFalseIdol
Profile Joined June 2018
70 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-11-07 11:21:00
November 07 2019 11:08 GMT
#272
Forgot to add Maru's win in World Cyber Games 2019. Small tournament but he stomped Neeb and Raynor here.
DSh1
Profile Joined April 2017
292 Posts
November 07 2019 13:55 GMT
#273
On November 07 2019 17:56 opisska wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2019 17:43 Poopi wrote:
Kespa era is a bit overrated, don’t you guys remember that the game was in a horrendous state multiplayer times during said era?
Broodlord / infestor (Roro used it so I guess they came at this moment), swarmhost infinite games, blink era, mech super strong era...
Whereas MC/NesTea/MVP thrived in less obnoxious eras.
GomTvT had an echo because it was hard dropping out of code S, but clearly other than Broodlord / infestor, WoL was a much better game than HotS.

Kespa came at the wrong time and quit too early


That's just your rosy glasses of nostalgia my friend. Especially MC, NesTea and MVP were most relevant in the first few years and in that period, the game was complete shit. We did not really know that back then, because we did not know better, but the small and terrible maps, rushes, 4gates and whatnot meant that this era was not great at all.

Also someone above wrote that Taeja was "top 3 in the world", which is completely absurd. Maybe people read too many stuchiu articles and this has scarred their rational thinking centers? Taeja was a superb player, but he was mostly a foreign circuit havester, he made Ro4 in GSL afair, but that's still not enough.


Taeja just beat scrubs like Life and Innovation while harvesting Circuits. Taeja is useless.
Obamarauder
Profile Joined June 2015
697 Posts
November 07 2019 15:05 GMT
#274
On November 07 2019 22:55 DSh1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2019 17:56 opisska wrote:
On November 07 2019 17:43 Poopi wrote:
Kespa era is a bit overrated, don’t you guys remember that the game was in a horrendous state multiplayer times during said era?
Broodlord / infestor (Roro used it so I guess they came at this moment), swarmhost infinite games, blink era, mech super strong era...
Whereas MC/NesTea/MVP thrived in less obnoxious eras.
GomTvT had an echo because it was hard dropping out of code S, but clearly other than Broodlord / infestor, WoL was a much better game than HotS.

Kespa came at the wrong time and quit too early


That's just your rosy glasses of nostalgia my friend. Especially MC, NesTea and MVP were most relevant in the first few years and in that period, the game was complete shit. We did not really know that back then, because we did not know better, but the small and terrible maps, rushes, 4gates and whatnot meant that this era was not great at all.

Also someone above wrote that Taeja was "top 3 in the world", which is completely absurd. Maybe people read too many stuchiu articles and this has scarred their rational thinking centers? Taeja was a superb player, but he was mostly a foreign circuit havester, he made Ro4 in GSL afair, but that's still not enough.


Taeja just beat scrubs like Life and Innovation while harvesting Circuits. Taeja is useless.



didnt taeja come back from retirement and almost beat serral in a homestory cup? totally overrated
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
November 07 2019 15:11 GMT
#275
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote:
Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...

There's no guarantee Life would gave continued winning had he not been banned. sOs for instance was maybe a top 5 HotS player (maybe, I would put him at #6) but didn't win anything in LotV. Life at his peak was getting between 1st and ro4 in almost every event, but that peak didn't actually last that long.

As fir Zest, he's the most dominant protoss without question. He tied Maru and INno for most korean wins in a given year, except he did it in a year with fewer tournaments. Bonus points because he also led KT to a proleague win that year.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
nojok
Profile Joined May 2011
France15845 Posts
November 07 2019 15:18 GMT
#276
If we look at the broader picture and take into account the entertainment provided by the players, MC is number 1 imo.
"Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - Kuroky - Flap Flap Wings!
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
November 07 2019 15:19 GMT
#277
On November 07 2019 17:43 Poopi wrote:
Kespa era is a bit overrated, don’t you guys remember that the game was in a horrendous state multiplayer times during said era?
Broodlord / infestor (Roro used it so I guess they came at this moment), swarmhost infinite games, blink era, mech super strong era...
Whereas MC/NesTea/MVP thrived in less obnoxious eras.
GomTvT had an echo because it was hard dropping out of code S, but clearly other than Broodlord / infestor, WoL was a much better game than HotS.

Kespa came at the wrong time and quit too early

Kespa came during BL/infestor, most people don't Include it in the kespa era.

There were also barely any infinite swarmhost games under kespa/in korean tournaments anyway. Blink era was a problem I guess, though the mech era didn't really last that long. No way was WoL a better game when for the most part people didn't know how to play it. Most fun expansion? yes. Best in terms of competition? not even close.

The level of play and competition under kespa was still much higher than during most of WoL. Case in point, there was only one GSL final from the start of HotS until the end of kespa that featured a non-kespa transfer player (Life vs PartinG).
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
TheAnarchy
Profile Joined January 2010
Chile1105 Posts
November 07 2019 15:33 GMT
#278
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote:
Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...


Yeah there is a concensus Life is the goat. If he wasnt banned he would have 20 or more premiers and like 7 gsl at least. But we cant say it because he was banned.
Same as Savior. Life was the last good player and defined the last era of good sc2. Since then Inno continued a bit the lvl and after that 0 lvl.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15937 Posts
November 07 2019 15:40 GMT
#279
On November 08 2019 00:18 nojok wrote:
If we look at the broader picture and take into account the entertainment provided by the players, MC is number 1 imo.

Nope. There is a concensus the most entertaining player of all time is actually IdrA.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25188 Posts
November 07 2019 15:43 GMT
#280
On November 08 2019 00:33 TheAnarchy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2019 10:09 tskarzyn wrote:
Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...


Yeah there is a concensus Life is the goat. If he wasnt banned he would have 20 or more premiers and like 7 gsl at least. But we cant say it because he was banned.
Same as Savior. Life was the last good player and defined the last era of good sc2. Since then Inno continued a bit the lvl and after that 0 lvl.

Can people stop saying there’s a consensus when there isn’t any such thing? A good argument for Life being up there sure, but that’s not what a consensus is.

It’s not particularly similar to Savior either, Savior’s seemingly unbeatable ZvP was cracked by Bisu and he never really adjusted to that innovation, and unlike Life he didn’t turn to getting involved in betting activities when he was at the top of his powers, indeed the decline of his powers were likely a reason as to why he did.

‘Last good player’ is just a preposterous statement.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
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