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On November 07 2019 04:04 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote:
Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied.
Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times. Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there. 3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me. I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos. soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll. MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere. MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did.
Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style or malone and stockton legendary lvl)
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On November 07 2019 04:06 TheAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 04:04 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote:
Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied.
Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times. Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there. 3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me. I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos. soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll. MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere. MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did. Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style)
Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
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Canada8991 Posts
On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote:
Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied.
Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times. Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there. 3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me. I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos. soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll. MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere. MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. Like people joined after 2010 in liquid forum shoudnt have a vote in this kind of discussion. Like people not reconicing savior as the greatest player all games and boxer against yellow in cocacola as the best game ever.
I have like a 100 page words document on the subject I fell like I at least get to speak... MMA was dominant in 2011 and early 2012 but he never make it back to the top. The EU circuit was the easiest by a good shot and between 2013 and 2015 he only has three good run in event with top tiers player (Bucarest semi, Blizzcon final and GSL season 1 semi in 2015) in all of the IEM or other international events he almost always disappointed and fell to the first Kespa player he faced. + he has a Dreamhack won against jjackji and a HSC won against Firecake (which was awesome don't get me wrong)
Top 15 maybe, to 10 not for me.
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On November 07 2019 04:13 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 04:06 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:04 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote:
Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied.
Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times. Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there. 3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me. I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos. soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll. MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere. MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did. Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style) Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era.
Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments.
Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).
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On November 07 2019 01:55 OhrlRock wrote:
like seriously how hard is it for Blizz to add like 5 secs of that video into their Blizzcon recap video wtf
If there is really no SCII in the recap I'm also quite disappointed. i didn't watch it anyways though
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On November 07 2019 04:38 DSh1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 01:55 OhrlRock wrote:
like seriously how hard is it for Blizz to add like 5 secs of that video into their Blizzcon recap video wtf If there is really no SCII in the recap I'm also quite disappointed. i didn't watch it anyways though
There would've been if Serral won.
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On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote:
Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied.
Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times. Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there. 3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me.
Dark in the top 10? Arguable.
soO in the top 10? Consistent with all the Maru GOAT claims, still two Premier titles are too few for anyone, it doesn't matter how strong he looked in Code S.
Not even listing Serral in 2019 as a possible top 10 while considering to put NesTea in? Exhilarant.
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Northern Ireland27361 Posts
On November 07 2019 04:21 TheAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 04:13 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 04:06 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:04 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote:
Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied.
Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times. Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there. 3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me. I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos. soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll. MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere. MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did. Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style) Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era. Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals).
Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career.
Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague)
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On November 07 2019 05:41 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 04:21 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:13 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 04:06 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:04 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote:
Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied.
Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times. Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there. 3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me. I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos. soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll. MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere. MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did. Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style) Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era. Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals). Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career. Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague)
I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10.
Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era.
People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated.
The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain
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Congrats to Dark. In all his match ups he looked better than opponents. So well deserved.
But it was Classics Blizzcon  With blink DTs
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On November 07 2019 05:35 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 02:46 TheAnarchy wrote:
Now Dark is undoubtly N°2 zerg in history. That clearly shows how Zergs have had very poor representation in sc2 history. Dark with a very favourable zerg meta and low competition is considered N°2 and it cant be denied.
Probably dark isnt even in the top 10 of all times. Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there. 3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me. Not even listing Serral in 2019 as a possible top 10 while considering to put NesTea in? Exhilarant.
Look if it was up to me none of the top WoL players would be in the top 10, but it's still 2-3 years of SC2 and you have to honour that. NesTea was the original elite zerg. In terms of skill relative to the playing field at least. It's not like Serral is winning back-to-back GSLs, or winning GSLs without dropping a map.
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On November 07 2019 06:24 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 05:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 07 2019 04:21 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:13 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 04:06 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:04 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me. I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos. soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll. MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere. MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did. Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style) Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era. Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals). Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career. Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague) I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain
Different times, different challenges. MC was good.
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On November 07 2019 06:24 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 05:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 07 2019 04:21 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:13 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 04:06 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:04 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me. I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos. soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll. MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere. MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did. Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style) Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era. Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals). Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career. Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague) I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain
You were even playing sc2 at the time Taeja played? He was clearly top3 player in the world for years playing at the same lvl of inno and life in the peak of Sc2. In which cave where you?
Btw there was an article made 2015 greatest of all times. Taeja 3. Rain was 10 (he only won 1 gsl after that) so I’m not that convinced he is ahead of Taeja. Not to mention hero who is clearly under rain. Oh and btw Taeja in the last poll was 7.
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On November 07 2019 06:24 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 05:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 07 2019 04:21 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:13 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 04:06 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:04 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:09 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Life, soO, and Dark are all in the top 10. Arguably NesTea could be thrown in there.
3-4 zerg in the top 10 sounds pretty good to me. I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos. soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll. MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere. MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did. Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style) Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era. Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals). Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career. Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague) I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain
I'd probably replace herO/Rain with soO but otherwise I can't really dispute anyone else in your top 10 list.
Edit: If the list was in order, I would say Dark should be above Stats and sOs and Zest are bit too high but otherwise I agree with it. If I had to make a list it would look something like
1. INnoVation (I think he's tied with Maru in achievements but succeeded in a tougher era with better winrates)
2. Maru
3. Life
4. Mvp
5. Dark
6. sOs
7. Stats
8. Zest
9. soO
10. Classic
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Northern Ireland27361 Posts
On November 07 2019 08:32 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 06:24 Charoisaur wrote:On November 07 2019 05:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 07 2019 04:21 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:13 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 04:06 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:04 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote:
[quote]
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos. soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll. MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere. MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did. Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style) Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era. Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals). Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career. Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague) I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain I'd probably replace herO/Rain with soO but otherwise I can't really dispute anyone else in your top 10 list. Edit: If the list was in order, I would say Dark should be above Stats and sOs and Zest are bit too high but otherwise I agree with it. If I had to make a list it would look something like 1. INnoVation (I think he's tied with Maru in achievements but succeeded in a tougher era with better winrates) 2. Maru 3. Life 4. Mvp 5. Dark 6. sOs 7. Stats 8. Zest 9. soO 10. Classic
It’s pretty solid really, sOs makes it confusing. Two huge world championships but not quite the Starleague record of other Protoss players.
Really for me there’s a top 4/5 now maybe with Dark, and the rest of the top 15 you can reasonably interchange as they’re all vaguely on the same tier, including Serral.
Covering Starcraft’s span I think a top 20 should be basically the best of their races in WoL in Mvp, Nestea, MC, then Taeja as an outlier, basically the rest all Kespa players and Serral.
In what order we can nitpick but I think that largely covers it, plus Life and maybe a few other EsF guys
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Anyone else think Life would've been the undisputed GOAT if he wasn't banned from competition? And Zest in the top 10? Not sure how he makes it there if Taeja doesn't, unless we are making a GOAT list for floating minerals...
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On November 07 2019 08:32 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 06:24 Charoisaur wrote:On November 07 2019 05:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 07 2019 04:21 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:13 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 04:06 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:04 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:On November 07 2019 03:51 TheAnarchy wrote:
[quote]
I would say life and maybe dark (nestea and soo clearly not top 10). So yeah 1-2 is very poor. Clearly top 10 players life, mvp, maru, inno, taeja, zest, mc, mma. Dark maybe fighting his spot with stats, classic and sos. soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll. MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere. MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did. Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style) Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era. Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals). Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career. Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague) I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain I'd probably replace herO/Rain with soO but otherwise I can't really dispute anyone else in your top 10 list. Edit: If the list was in order, I would say Dark should be above Stats and sOs and Zest are bit too high but otherwise I agree with it. If I had to make a list it would look something like 1. INnoVation (I think he's tied with Maru in achievements but succeeded in a tougher era with better winrates) 2. Maru 3. Life 4. Mvp 5. Dark 6. sOs 7. Stats 8. Zest 9. soO 10. Classic
Personally feel that Stats edges out Dark based on the fact that he has won trophies more consistently and also at times when his race has been at its weakest. Dark has won most of his titles in the past few months when Zerg has very obviously been imbalanced.
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On November 07 2019 10:21 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 08:32 Anc13nt wrote:On November 07 2019 06:24 Charoisaur wrote:On November 07 2019 05:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 07 2019 04:21 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:13 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 04:06 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 04:04 Fango wrote:On November 07 2019 03:58 TheAnarchy wrote:On November 07 2019 03:56 Nakajin wrote:
[quote]
soO behind MC, MMA and Classic? I need to restart my poll.
MC-Classic are maybe one thing (and still it sound ludicrous to me) but MMA is just out of nowhere. MMA 8 premiers and 4 second places against 2 premiers and 9 second places. Even if soO tournaments were harder not enough wins for me. This is what happens when you simply count the number of tournaments liquipedia considers premier instead of actually knowing how good these players were and how difficult it was to acheive what they did. Yeah is very hard being soO anticlutch (tony romo style) Winning homestory cups and WCS europes is definitely harder than consistently making every GSL finals during SC2 most competitive era. Winning Gsl, Global finals, Iron squid (similar too kespa at the time), Iem global, dreamhack and other bunch of easier tournaments and reaching other global finals and other tournaments. Is better then winning kespa and loosing 6 gsl finals (gsl and globals). Agree to disagree on that, the strength of the competition went up a notch from when MMA was winning the prestige prizes to his latter career. Still a great player, I’m not sure I’d place him above Taeja even given he remained competitive with the Kespa boys (although no Starleague) I'd put none of MC/MMA/TaeJa/Polt in the top 10. Their results are heavily inflated by winning a bunch of tournaments with very weak competition and they had success when the scene wasn't nearly as competitive as in the Kespa era. People who only barely follow sc2 or don't understand the tournament scene think they are among the very best players of all time because all they do is open liquipedia and count the tournaments they won which LP connsiders premier which is why they are often overrated. The top 10 is pretty clearly Inno, Maru, sOs, Zest, Life, Mvp, Stats, Dark, Classic, herO/Rain I'd probably replace herO/Rain with soO but otherwise I can't really dispute anyone else in your top 10 list. Edit: If the list was in order, I would say Dark should be above Stats and sOs and Zest are bit too high but otherwise I agree with it. If I had to make a list it would look something like 1. INnoVation (I think he's tied with Maru in achievements but succeeded in a tougher era with better winrates) 2. Maru 3. Life 4. Mvp 5. Dark 6. sOs 7. Stats 8. Zest 9. soO 10. Classic Personally feel that Stats edges out Dark based on the fact that he has won trophies more consistently and also at times when his race has been at its weakest. Dark has won most of his titles in the past few months when Zerg has very obviously been imbalanced.
that's a good point. I think they are really close in any case.
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I'll never agree with these lists, too much focused on KeSpa era and giving Code S a disproportionate relevance.
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Northern Ireland27361 Posts
On November 07 2019 11:34 Xain0n wrote:
I'll never agree with these lists, too much focused on KeSpa era and giving Code S a disproportionate relevance.
Well what’s your alternative listing if you disagree?
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EPT
