EPTOn November 04 2019 07:59 Nakajin wrote:
Also Mvp lost a GSL to Life when he was 15, and he was pretty good.
Also Mvp lost a GSL to Life when he was 15, and he was pretty good.
That was HotS
Dark wins the 2019 WCS Global Finals - Page 7
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
That was HotS | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On November 04 2019 08:10 BerserkSword wrote: Maru's 4 GSLs heavily involved proxy and broken raven. Favorable meta? "heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them. Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time). | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 04 2019 07:57 BerserkSword wrote: Serral is not the best player in the world. Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated. Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode. Are you for real? First of all, Reynor reached ro16 the first time he tried to play in Code S; Dark beating him in the finals means that he deserved to win BlizzCon, you are reading way too much into it. Dark in 2019 lost as #1 seed in GSL to the #8 seed in WCS, he was eliminated in the first round at Super Tournament 1 earlier this year. When soO beat Serral, Dark was losing to Stats; when Inno defeated Serral, Serral himself had eliminated Dark. You are just presenting facts the wrong way here. Dark was having constantly good results during the whole year before becoming truly scary in the recent times. Serral may or may not be the best player in the world at the moment, one defeat does not change that; Classic beating Serral? He lost 3-1 last time, Serral 3-0d Stats last week... I would not bet on it. Out of all the highest peaks in LoTV, Dark's is actually the least impressive if you look at actual results without random hype. It also took place in a moment when ZvP is broken, something that you have been(legitimately) screaming for weeks. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On November 04 2019 08:10 BerserkSword wrote: Why wasn't it insane? Topped GSL, won Blizzcon, made lotv history, and most importantly displayed unparalleled skill in the later half of the year. What is insane to you? The "favorable meta" is overblown. Innovation's peak occurred during 2017's Terran-favored meta. Does it take anything away from him? When serral won his blizzcon Zerg was leading race as per aligulac. Favorable meta? Maru's 4 GSLs heavily involved proxy and broken raven. Favorable meta? He won 2 tournament + Blizzcon, I mean it's a great year but it's not as good a year as Maru-Serral 2018 or Mvp 2011 and on par with INno 2017 or Zest 2014 (if you count Katowice into it). I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18) On November 04 2019 08:23 Fango wrote: Also what are the odds Reynor becomes the next Creator I'm looking forward to watching him stream alone at home during the downtime of Blizzcon 2022  | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On November 04 2019 08:18 Fango wrote: "heavily involved proxy and broken raven" he massed ravens in two games across all four seasons, and only went heavy on the proxies in one of them. Maru had already won two GSLs before the proxy meta, and even won the season directly after it (not proxying in a single game iirc). People really pinning all his starleague wins on one season's meta (and it's not even like the proxies were broken either, PvT floated 50-52% in protoss favour during that time). What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall. He was using proxies the entire time. There were more than two games involving the raven.... On November 04 2019 08:24 Nakajin wrote: I assume you're just trolling, but it famously wasn't. Anyway point is, it used to be pretty normal to lose to 17 years old rookie except now we just have a bunch of guys so it doesn't really happen. (Maru, Creator, TaeJa, Parting, Leenock... all these guys were considered top 3 before topping 18) I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL) The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were | ||
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MoonyD
Australia191 Posts
Not to get into the argument of how silly the current 'balance' is, it was really sad to watch Serral lose in Game 5 against Reynor after being technically ahead in supply. That game showcased how 'bad' Ultras are. Here's to hoping 2020 will be a better year for SC2. Perhaps the upcoming patch will help change the meta a bit and make things interesting again. Late 2019 saw a heavy use of the nydus play which was pretty disgusting to watch since it carried no real 'risk' to the Zerg player going Nydus. | ||
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FlyGaho
22 Posts
On November 04 2019 07:43 deacon.frost wrote: You need to check his 4 titles again, they weren't as proxyu heavy as you haters are saying. It wasn’t all proxy. But will always be known as the cancer proxy era. Thank god sOs embarrassed Maru at blizzcon and ended that nonsense. Quite poetic since he gave Maru this build, only fitting he ended it himself | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On November 04 2019 08:24 Xain0n wrote: Are you for real? First of all, Reynor reached ro16 the first time he tried to play in Code S; Dark beating him in the finals means that he deserved to win BlizzCon, you are reading way too much into it. Dark in 2019 lost as #1 seed in GSL to the #8 seed in WCS, he was eliminated in the first round at Super Tournament 1 earlier this year. When soO beat Serral, Dark was losing to Stats; when Inno defeated Serral, Serral himself had eliminated Dark. You are just presenting facts the wrong way here. Dark was having constantly good results during the whole year before becoming truly scary in the recent times. Serral may or may not be the best player in the world at the moment, one defeat does not change that; Classic beating Serral? He lost 3-1 last time, Serral 3-0d Stats last week... I would not bet on it. Out of all the highest peaks in LoTV, Dark's is actually the least impressive if you look at actual results without random hype. It also took place in a moment when ZvP is broken, something that you have been(legitimately) screaming for weeks. Youre right about reynor. My error. I already said that the level of play he displayed past the early to mid year was on another level. When Dark started firing on all cylinders he was destroying stats, inno, maru, ty. Probably serral too but serral doesnt play in the same circuit so they never met. The one anomaly is the loss to elazer but to me that doesnt mean much since Dark plays in GSL and has won the big tournaments there, unlike someone like serral who gets to play in WCS and yet still regularly loses to a player like reynor. Classic's play in blizzcon was better than stats' play in blizzcon and classic's play in gsl vs the world. So my money would be on classic assuming he brings the same form. It's not random hype. It's actually watching the games, seeing the immense skill displayed, regardless of the meta, and considering that along with the trophies he's won. | ||
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FlyGaho
22 Posts
On November 04 2019 07:57 BerserkSword wrote: Serral is not the best player in the world. Best players in the world don't lose to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie, and player who cannot even get past ro.32 in the GSL Code S, on the biggest stage. Lose to the same player whom Dark utterly dominated. Serral probably wouldve lost to beast mode Classic too. I'd bet on Classic anyway Serral fans have to come to terms with reality. Dark slaughtered the best players in the world en route to the world champion title. Serral is losing big tournaments to soo, innovation, and stats, when Dark just rolls over them with ease. The fact that Dark won Code S (first for zerg in lotv) and super tournament as well, AND had the most GSL points, means that Dark wasnt just on a hot streak either. First seed in the GSL AND Blizzcon. 2019 Dark is god mode. Grats 2019 Dark winning blizzcon and Tier B Gsl Wonder how he does in Tier A WCS? I guess not very well since Serral mop the floor with him everytime they play each other Dark probably will struggle to beat Elazer as well is my guess. Since Elazer embarrassed him at blizzcon as well | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On November 04 2019 08:55 BerserkSword wrote: What lol? Maru was proxying from his WESG win through the first two Code S's. He proxied in Code S S3 through last year's blizzcon too, as we all famously saw as it became his downfall. He was using proxies the entire time. There were more than two games involving the raven.... I thought you brought that GSL up to showcase that Zerg won a code S in LotV, which is why i said it was HotS (I was wrong about that - it was WoL) The difference between Life and Reynor is that Life went on to win the whole thing while Reynor didn't play particularly well the entire blizzcon tournament and then got stomped in the finals. Life was the GOAT or at least a contender, and until proven otherwise, Reynor is nowhere near close. Reynor is not a top 3 player like Maru, Life, Taeja, Parting, etc were Whatever jjakji then if you prefer. 17-18 is a somewhat young, but perfectly reasonable age to be great at Starcraft. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On November 04 2019 09:16 Nakajin wrote: Whatever jjakji then if you prefer. 17-18 is a somewhat young, but perfectly reasonable age to be great at Starcraft. hold up I didn't say reynor is not great at starcraft. He is no doubt very talented. reynor beats serral (often too), and then loses to dark in a ridiculously one-sided affair. And dark also manhandles the best players of the other races too in by far the most difficult starcraft circuit in the world.. Where is the case for serral being better than dark? | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
But we can only blame Serral for that, losing that game 5 in the manner he lost it is something to be remembered. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 04 2019 09:31 BerserkSword wrote: hold up I didn't say reynor is not great at starcraft. He is no doubt very talented. reynor beats serral (often too), and then loses to dark in a ridiculously one-sided affair. And dark also manhandles the best players of the other races too in by far the most difficult starcraft circuit in the world.. Where is the case for serral being better than dark? Head to head? Serral steamrolled Dark the last three times they met. Transitivity is not granted(Serral 3-0 soO, Dark 3-2 soO, how would you explain that?) and, most importantly, if you look at Dark's ZvZ record, the exception is actually him nomatching Reynor no more than him losing 2-3 to Elazer. Dark 1-4 Rogue, do you remember? Yes, he decisively defeated Reynor but to say he's stronger than Serral in the matchup is a veery long shot. What is true is that Dark has recently looked great and won the last two tournaments(groupstage excluded) in a dominating fashion, he probably is the one whose shape is the best right now; this, in addiction to his good results throughout the year, make him the most accomplished player in 2019. I would not go much further than that, your claims are a bit sensationalistic. | ||
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Kertorak
121 Posts
So this ought to be a feedback to TL community/moderators, maybe. Oh just respect the anti-spoiler-fans/noobs and their feedback, no qq. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4029 Posts
On November 04 2019 09:58 Kertorak wrote: Isnt this a spoiler thread and title? Why do we see this. I thought its not allowed. So this ought to be a feedback to TL community/moderators, maybe, oh just respect the feedback, no qq. maybe like don't go on team liquid, a starcraft site, if you are trying to avoid spoilers about the biggest sc2 tournament of the year lol | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On November 04 2019 09:31 BerserkSword wrote: hold up I didn't say reynor is not great at starcraft. He is no doubt very talented. reynor beats serral (often too), and then loses to dark in a ridiculously one-sided affair. And dark also manhandles the best players of the other races too in by far the most difficult starcraft circuit in the world.. Where is the case for serral being better than dark? You said that the best player doesn't lose "to a 17 year old greenhorn, BLIZZCON rookie [...] on the biggest stage" I'm just saying it's perfectly normal for some of the best in the world to lose to 17 years old. I presented some example of great 15-18 years old players, you said he's different cause he isn't as great as those, then I said jjakji cause he did win a GSL at 17(or 18?). I don't know where you picked up that I'm saying Serral is better than Dark | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On November 04 2019 09:58 Kertorak wrote: Isnt this a spoiler thread and title? Why do we see this. I thought its not allowed. Sorry If I am not so experienced here, just reading sometimes. So this ought to be a feedback to TL community/moderators, maybe. Oh just respect the anti-spoiler-fans/noobs and their feedback, no qq. There is a "Hide spoilers" button under the pictures on the main page, if you select it you shouldn't see results the next time you come on the website. | ||
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RDO
Italy60 Posts
Yeah, I know, zerg imba etc, but at the end of the day there were just three zergs in the semis: there was no Rogue, no Elazer, and no other kr, eu or na zergs. His record against koreans isn't amazing (I'm just talking about offline events here), but in an year and a half, since he joined the GSL/Circuit in july 2018, he lost to Stats, Classic, Gumiho, Maru, Creator, Cure, Dark and Fantasy, and he won against Classic, PartinG, herO, Trap, INnoVation, Solar, Creator, Impact and Ryung. His stats since then in offline events vs koreans are 29 - 32 in maps, and 10-11 in matches, which isn't Serral level stats, but given the opponents he played against isn't that bad either. In the meantime, he defeated Serral in WCS finals 2 times, plus in the Blizzcon semis, while defeating pretty much everybody else in the Circuit (which I know it wont mean much to somebody, but it's still impressive). I'm obviously not talking about any GOAT, or best foreigner or whatever, but other than Maru, Serral and maybe Stats and Dark too (Dark based on numbers, but it's just one series so I'm not entirely convinced), I don't think there's somebody else "on another level" or clearly favored against Reynor, either korean or not korean. | ||
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