• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:41
CEST 20:41
KST 03:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202529RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Corsair Pursuit Micro? Pro gamer house photos
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 787 users

Rogue, Trap advance, Global Finals playoff bracket set - P…

Forum Index > SC2 General
182 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 Next All
Conut
Profile Joined April 2012
Canada1026 Posts
October 27 2019 19:48 GMT
#61
On October 28 2019 04:46 starkiller123 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2019 04:44 Conut wrote:
On October 28 2019 04:36 starkiller123 wrote:
On October 28 2019 04:31 Conut wrote:
Man I know everyone is complaining but I just came back from WOL very early hots I skipped hots because I hated swarmhosts so basically I'm coming from infestor broodlord and swarmhost to current meta of infestor broodlord and swarm host.

Really hating the design of zergy bois, wish you couldnt neural massive units it kinda destroyed every army I have seen out of terran and protoss, if it wasnt in the game would zerg still be good?

I'm sure zerg would still be fine, right now I'm not bothered by broodlord infestor in my ladder games I just find it incredibly awful to watch


Its boiled over for me from spectator to player, the zerg seem to have an answer for everything, mass air units mass ground units, chokepoints early defense movable buildings I usually dont look at balance since I'm just like low masters and I am always macroing and controlling my army like garbage but i still cant help but hate the balance.

At least I'm not protoss lol

yeah I'm diamond 1 right now and I'm so bad balance dosent really effect my games lol



I feel you brother lmao
Sc2 always got your back
Pentarp
Profile Joined August 2015
219 Posts
October 27 2019 20:09 GMT
#62
5 Zergs, 2 Protoss, 1 Terran. The RO8 representation mirrors exactly how I feel about the state of the game rightnow.

The only reason Zergs are getting so much attention is because even the Protoss are feeling the crunch. Back when BL/infestor were dominating at the end of WoL, there was still the Parting immortal timing that kept winrates pretty decent for the Protoss (and archon toilets too).
Plogamer TL.net RedRocket B.net
Conut
Profile Joined April 2012
Canada1026 Posts
October 27 2019 20:33 GMT
#63
On October 28 2019 05:09 Pentarp wrote:
5 Zergs, 2 Protoss, 1 Terran. The RO8 representation mirrors exactly how I feel about the state of the game rightnow.

The only reason Zergs are getting so much attention is because even the Protoss are feeling the crunch. Back when BL/infestor were dominating at the end of WoL, there was still the Parting immortal timing that kept winrates pretty decent for the Protoss (and archon toilets too).


Archon toilets was the coolest thing toss have had
Sc2 always got your back
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 27 2019 21:01 GMT
#64
On October 28 2019 05:09 Pentarp wrote:
5 Zergs, 2 Protoss, 1 Terran. The RO8 representation mirrors exactly how I feel about the state of the game rightnow.

The only reason Zergs are getting so much attention is because even the Protoss are feeling the crunch. Back when BL/infestor were dominating at the end of WoL, there was still the Parting immortal timing that kept winrates pretty decent for the Protoss (and archon toilets too).

There was also the MC style which emerged right at the end of WoL and looked promising. Basically you had MS, some archons, some colossi, four to six carriers, templars and many void rays. And it looked nice and dandy even at GSL RO8 A little bit polishing and it would be IMO playable. Even without the archon toilet(which was possible if you got the chance, obv ).
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Howard_Kao
Profile Joined September 2018
China261 Posts
October 27 2019 21:08 GMT
#65
Will letting infestors not able to neuro massive units make the zerg late games a more enjoyable thing to watch or not?
"You don't need a gsl champion, you don't need a esl champion. I feel like I'm just a normal man. I just practice very hard this time, like 15hrs everyday" Oliveira 2023
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-27 21:16:07
October 27 2019 21:13 GMT
#66
Same old, same old.

People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..

Then there's some random ZvZ hate like it was the monodimensional matchup it used to be in HoTS.

But hey, I start seeing more people complaining about every trick the Zerg race has: "free units, omg".
Is TL turning into Twitch chat, I wonder?

I'll repeat it once more: your constant, mindless whining against Protoss made Blizzard overnerf a not overpowered race, so that the(figured out) Immortal timings are now less effective than ever and you can enjoy your beloved Broodlord Infestor composition more often than ever.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 27 2019 21:15 GMT
#67
On October 28 2019 06:08 Howard_Kao wrote:
Will letting infestors not able to neuro massive units make the zerg late games a more enjoyable thing to watch or not?

It certainly shouldn't happen to the hero unit I don't know, massing spellcasters is bad. They nerfed the shit out of ravens and now they sit and watch infestors... like, seriously? Where's the decisive action now?
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15930 Posts
October 27 2019 21:48 GMT
#68
On October 28 2019 06:13 Xain0n wrote:

People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..


So ironic...
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
starkiller123
Profile Joined January 2016
United States4030 Posts
October 27 2019 21:51 GMT
#69
On October 28 2019 06:48 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2019 06:13 Xain0n wrote:

People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..


So ironic...

don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
tigon_ridge
Profile Joined March 2019
482 Posts
October 27 2019 21:53 GMT
#70
On October 28 2019 05:33 Conut wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2019 05:09 Pentarp wrote:
5 Zergs, 2 Protoss, 1 Terran. The RO8 representation mirrors exactly how I feel about the state of the game rightnow.

The only reason Zergs are getting so much attention is because even the Protoss are feeling the crunch. Back when BL/infestor were dominating at the end of WoL, there was still the Parting immortal timing that kept winrates pretty decent for the Protoss (and archon toilets too).


Archon toilets was the coolest thing toss have had

Finally, someone who sees it the way I do, although I don't know if it was the coolest. It needs to be brought back, albeit in a nerfed format. It was always fun to see it being used, except when it completely wrecked half an army. I'd love to see it again.
MarianoSC2
Profile Joined June 2015
Slovakia1855 Posts
October 27 2019 21:56 GMT
#71
On October 28 2019 06:13 Xain0n wrote:
Same old, same old.

People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..

Then there's some random ZvZ hate like it was the monodimensional matchup it used to be in HoTS.

But hey, I start seeing more people complaining about every trick the Zerg race has: "free units, omg".
Is TL turning into Twitch chat, I wonder?

I'll repeat it once more: your constant, mindless whining against Protoss made Blizzard overnerf a not overpowered race, so that the(figured out) Immortal timings are now less effective than ever and you can enjoy your beloved Broodlord Infestor composition more often than ever.


The whining against protoss immortal pushes was justified, and the strat was rightfully nerfed. The problem is that Blizz did not want to hear the also rightful concerns about Zerg lategame. We all now know about the BL range bug yet its still not fixed, for example.
Your perception in this is just plain wrong. We cant keep something that is obviously broken in the game and argument with: Hey, just do not let them get there. Do an immortal push, which is also very strong. It leads to boring games for both players and viewers.

I get that you are happy with all this, because your beloved Serral and Reynor are doing great, but its not good for the sport, game overall and its not even good for the community.

Just try to be less biased and see the big picture pls

P.S. TvP is in the best state it was over the past couple of years. Protoss is not overnerfed, its just that Zerg is OP, especially in ZvP. Even the players are openly admiting this, so why not be open about it in the community as well?
Top 11: Rogue, Maru, Inno, Zest, Life, sOs, Stats, Dark, soO, Mvp, Classic/Trap/MC/Rain
tigon_ridge
Profile Joined March 2019
482 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-27 22:11:38
October 27 2019 22:07 GMT
#72
On October 28 2019 06:13 Xain0n wrote:
Same old, same old.

People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..

Then there's some random ZvZ hate like it was the monodimensional matchup it used to be in HoTS.

But hey, I start seeing more people complaining about every trick the Zerg race has: "free units, omg".
Is TL turning into Twitch chat, I wonder?

I'll repeat it once more: your constant, mindless whining against Protoss made Blizzard overnerf a not overpowered race, so that the(figured out) Immortal timings are now less effective than ever and you can enjoy your beloved Broodlord Infestor composition more often than ever.

Those immortal timings really were fricken OP, though. It was probably one of the main reasons why Serral said ZvP was his toughest MU. Only problem was that Blizzard lacked foresight when they nerfed Protoss' early-mid timing potential without understanding the advantage lategame Zerg had. They did this even while Aligulac was showing Protoss as clearly lagging behind, and Zerg ahead. At that time, going lategame v Zerg wasn't as common, due to those early-mid aggression power, so people weren't so vocal about lategame Zerg. That nerf to Protoss only made it much more apparent, since it made it easier to go into lategame.
Dave4
Profile Joined August 2018
494 Posts
October 27 2019 22:16 GMT
#73
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote:
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up

Geez. Brackets had nothing to do with Blizz and everything to do with how the players performed in the season and in the ro16.
Conut
Profile Joined April 2012
Canada1026 Posts
October 27 2019 22:18 GMT
#74
Yea protoss needed the nerf midgame, they just need a buff late game, two immortals shouldn't hold off a 200 200 zerg army but holy moly pvz looks super sad late game right now
Sc2 always got your back
tilhorizon
Profile Joined September 2008
Germany191 Posts
October 27 2019 22:29 GMT
#75
On October 28 2019 01:34 Monster3 wrote:
A number of players got their best match-ups;

Serral (best ZvZ in the world)
Rogue (best ZvP in the world)
Dark (best ZvT in the world)

They are also the three form players (won the last three major tournaments). I'm hard pressed to see how they don't win their respective Ro8s as both form and historical strength is in their favor. The only one I'd question probably is Dark vs Maru, as historically Maru has had the best TvZ in the world.



alligulac says something else

rogue best zvp ? rogue vs p is 62,2 % winrate / serral 68,6% winrate
dark best zvt ? dark vs t is 65,9% winrate / serral 67 % winrate

if you have to bet on a zerg to play vs any other race serral would be the smartest choice on any matchup
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4404 Posts
October 27 2019 22:59 GMT
#76
On October 28 2019 07:16 Dave4 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote:
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up

Geez. Brackets had nothing to do with Blizz and everything to do with how the players performed in the season and in the ro16.


Wasn't Maru set to go against either Dark or Reynor and it was just random draw at that point? I know parts of it were decided but I thought the final set parts of the bracket were random draw. Him against Reynor first would be a much easier bracket.
tigon_ridge
Profile Joined March 2019
482 Posts
October 27 2019 23:29 GMT
#77
On October 28 2019 07:29 tilhorizon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2019 01:34 Monster3 wrote:
A number of players got their best match-ups;

Serral (best ZvZ in the world)
Rogue (best ZvP in the world)
Dark (best ZvT in the world)

They are also the three form players (won the last three major tournaments). I'm hard pressed to see how they don't win their respective Ro8s as both form and historical strength is in their favor. The only one I'd question probably is Dark vs Maru, as historically Maru has had the best TvZ in the world.



alligulac says something else

rogue best zvp ? rogue vs p is 62,2 % winrate / serral 68,6% winrate
dark best zvt ? dark vs t is 65,9% winrate / serral 67 % winrate

if you have to bet on a zerg to play vs any other race serral would be the smartest choice on any matchup

Be careful how you quote statistics. 65.9% isn't necessarily worse than 67% if the qualities of opponents are different. Serral is indeed the best by far at ZvP, though. For now, Dark has proven that he is at least on par with Serral at ZvT.
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
October 28 2019 00:08 GMT
#78
i think we are going to see a reynor vs rogue finals with some crazy lategame zvz
Jerom
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands588 Posts
October 28 2019 00:34 GMT
#79
On October 28 2019 06:13 Xain0n wrote:
Same old, same old.

People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..

Then there's some random ZvZ hate like it was the monodimensional matchup it used to be in HoTS.

But hey, I start seeing more people complaining about every trick the Zerg race has: "free units, omg".
Is TL turning into Twitch chat, I wonder?

I'll repeat it once more: your constant, mindless whining against Protoss made Blizzard overnerf a not overpowered race, so that the(figured out) Immortal timings are now less effective than ever and you can enjoy your beloved Broodlord Infestor composition more often than ever.

Can you blame people? Many people actually root for their own race, and this year has been extremely tough for protoss and terran fans. Its just all zerg.. I can accept it that my favorite race doesnt always win, but this year is just frustrating as a terran fan. At some point people will start complaining about it..
StarcraftSquall
Profile Joined December 2018
United States196 Posts
October 28 2019 00:48 GMT
#80
On October 28 2019 04:23 Anc13nt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2019 04:01 Konage47 wrote:
On October 28 2019 03:38 La1 wrote:
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote:
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up


Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match..
Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..

I hope he gets rolled..


I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.


I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).

For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.


Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 15h 19m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
MindelVK 36
ForJumy 2
StarCraft: Brood War
Barracks 750
Larva 536
Mini 429
Stork 167
Aegong 73
scan(afreeca) 27
League of Legends
Dendi1097
Grubby1093
Counter-Strike
fl0m1837
oskar242
byalli236
Foxcn65
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu360
Khaldor343
Other Games
summit1g2211
ceh91498
FrodaN1070
Hui .308
ToD111
Trikslyr56
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta134
• LUISG 32
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 17
• Michael_bg 14
• FirePhoenix4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3854
• masondota21177
• WagamamaTV493
League of Legends
• Nemesis3997
• TFBlade838
Other Games
• imaqtpie1103
• Shiphtur552
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
15h 19m
ByuN vs Zoun
SHIN vs TriGGeR
Cyan vs ShoWTimE
Rogue vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs Solar
Reynor vs Maru
herO vs Cure
Serral vs Classic
Esports World Cup
1d 15h
Esports World Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.