Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
Really low skill era ? So you are saying that Korean top players from like 2013-2014 would crush Serral and Maru easily ? I would say the skill levels from top players are far better than anything from the past. Game has evolved, so have the players. Was the competition tougher back then ? Yeah, it was. But that doesnt mean that the skill level was somehow better. I have seen great new plays from players now in these current Blizzcon games. So game is still evolving and players are still creating new strategies and tricks to get their play better and better.
What goes to Stephano being better....yeah, he used roaches and then swarmhosts. He won a tournament and otherwise his accomplishments were very mediocre even in Europe. How in earth is he better than a player that has been top-4 (or even number 1) player in the world for almost 2 years now ?
On October 28 2019 12:03 swarminfestor wrote:
Agreed much with this. I don't get the logic how Serral's performances in these two years surpassed GSL's caliber players during their peak performances. You cannot simply put Serral's current performances topped over the Innovation's past performances.
For the case of foreigners, I would like to swap Stephano with Naniwa even though the latter lacked the sportsmanship value.
Well again its hard to compare different timelines. But the absolute level of play is much higher now at the top altough the competition is more narrow.
"I don't get the logic how Serral's performances in these two years surpassed GSL's caliber players during their peak performances."
He wins over 50% of tournaments he enters. He had 40+ games winstreak in tournaments in 2018 and won almost all of them including Blizzcon and GSL vs. the World. He fairs excellent against the toughest Koreans in the field. Almost all other players fear to face him and that has been the case like over a year now. He is expected to win every tournament he enters and anything but winning is dissapointment. How many players in the history have had the same effect on other players or even same expectations ? MVP, Life, Innovation... ? Not many. And how many players have been able to remain in the top that long ? Again, not that many if none. Again, hard to compare players in different times, but his accomplishments are unique in the history of Starcraft 2.
And what goes to Naniwa, lol. Again, few good results and otherwise just mediocre. And no, you just cant argue that Stephano or Naniwa were better only because of "tougher competition". They were never really that near of the top. Maybe few peaks, but thats it. Otherwise their results were really mediocre. If we even look at foreinger scene; Serral dominated that over a year and except from Raynor still does. Naniwa or Stephano were very volatile even in their peak. They could challenge good Koreans the other day and next day lose to Elfi, Tefel or Bly. And what goes to tournament wins, there isnt even anything to compare to. Serral is just so much better than they were combined.
On October 28 2019 12:10 GalacticFox wrote:
Not to mention the highly zerg favoured meta Serral is playing in...
LoL, yeah, the whole 2 years of pure Zerg dominance...
On October 28 2019 14:33 roflQUAFFLE wrote: If you remove Serral's wins from the past 2 years, I highly doubt anyone would be crying Zerg imba.
Yup.
Its funny that people like to remind how for example Life, Stephano, Naniwa, Parting or even MC have been SO CREATIVE AND REVOLUTIONAL at their gameplay. But when we talk about Serral, nobody seems to remember his burrow roach harass, countless ling runbys, drops in multiple angles and bases same time, perfect surrounds, stunning scouting almost every game etc. etc. And all of this is forgotten because "zerg so imba".
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses.
It's hilarious that you can even remotely think our behavior is comparable. I call Serral most dominant player ever because he is and best player of the year when he is, basing my statements on facts, not on the conviction that Code S is holy and untouchable and incredibly superior to any tournament.
My memory is still decent and I remember that you said multiple times that you hold BlizzCon in very high regard, what would happen if Serral were to win a second one? Your memory instead must not be sharp, as not only I never said Serral is the GOAT, I also never said he's the most skilled ever.
My reactions when Serral loses? I may not write anything or speak my mind saying things you don't like(like when I said Serral was not in his best shape because, ehm, he was actually losing games as opposed to being undefeated for months) or defend him against the vile attacks many posters love to make on this forum after he loses. I do not troll for entire days spamming sarcastic posts when Maru wins and I don't say that he sucks the many times he gets eliminated early from tournaments he could be expected to win. Can't you really tell the difference?
Lol people complaining about bracket beeing rigged.
If the Ro16 is anything to go by, Serral has got this. Maru evading the dream match again, but only because he wants to play Serral in the finals for the ultimate showdown
I hope all Korean Terrans are rallying behind Maru and giving him the builds to make this happen.
Is it just me, or streaming times are just mess? It used to be 2 days event with normal streaming times. In Europe (CET) Ro8 starts at 8 PM and finals at 3:30 AM... Why? I think there would more viewers if streaming time will be normal. Semifinals and finals at 8 PM 2nd November...
And as far as I remember, there were always some kind of problems, so it is possible that finals will starts 4:30 rather than 3:30 AM.
Well, for me it would only Ro8 to watch. After you turn 30 years old and have family , it is very difficult to watch games after 1:00 AM and be able to wake up early morning...
One thing i'll note. the koreans ALL seem to have it out for serral. you can bet that Jin Air Lab team are cooking up some crazy stuff for their players!
it isn't just Serral vs Soo.. its Serral vs Korea.
that to me is why he is so impressive. Every korean is helping every other korean who is facing serral to prep.. korea wants him taken down and so far.. he has beaten their every move!
Can't wait for the finals! Hope he gets past raynor who i think will be a big challenge.. I can see a Dark vs Serral final!
As for the Maru discussion.. he peaked in the proxy meta and hasn't really done anything of note since (except bum out most tournaments even with the jin air labs help!)
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses.
It's hilarious that you can even remotely think our behavior is comparable. I call Serral most dominant player ever because he is and best player of the year when he is, basing my statements on facts, not on the conviction that Code S is holy and untouchable and incredibly superior to any tournament.
My memory is still decent and I remember that you said multiple times that you hold BlizzCon in very high regard, what would happen if Serral were to win a second one? Your memory instead must not be sharp, as not only I never said Serral is the GOAT, I also never said he's the most skilled ever.
My reactions when Serral loses? I may not write anything or speak my mind saying things you don't like(like when I said Serral was not in his best shape because, ehm, he was actually losing games as opposed to being undefeated for months) or defend him against the vile attacks many posters love to make on this forum after he loses. I do not troll for entire days spamming sarcastic posts when Maru wins and I don't say that he sucks the many times he gets eliminated early from tournaments he could be expected to win. Can't you really tell the difference?
Your opinion = facts - okay I won't respond to any of your comments anymore. Don't bother replying.
On October 28 2019 20:21 La1 wrote: One thing i'll note. the koreans ALL seem to have it out for serral. you can bet that Jin Air Lab team are cooking up some crazy stuff for their players!
it isn't just Serral vs Soo.. its Serral vs Korea.
that to me is why he is so impressive. Every korean is helping every other korean who is facing serral to prep.. korea wants him taken down and so far.. he has beaten their every move!
Can't wait for the finals! Hope he gets past raynor who i think will be a big challenge.. I can see a Dark vs Serral final!
As for the Maru discussion.. he peaked in the proxy meta and hasn't really done anything of note since (except bum out most tournaments even with the jin air labs help!)
Agree
Not to mention it was sOs that helped Maru to develop that proxy meta. Maru has always been overrated by his fanboys.
Outside of his proxy meta, his resume is quite "average"
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses.
It's hilarious that you can even remotely think our behavior is comparable. I call Serral most dominant player ever because he is and best player of the year when he is, basing my statements on facts, not on the conviction that Code S is holy and untouchable and incredibly superior to any tournament.
My memory is still decent and I remember that you said multiple times that you hold BlizzCon in very high regard, what would happen if Serral were to win a second one? Your memory instead must not be sharp, as not only I never said Serral is the GOAT, I also never said he's the most skilled ever.
My reactions when Serral loses? I may not write anything or speak my mind saying things you don't like(like when I said Serral was not in his best shape because, ehm, he was actually losing games as opposed to being undefeated for months) or defend him against the vile attacks many posters love to make on this forum after he loses. I do not troll for entire days spamming sarcastic posts when Maru wins and I don't say that he sucks the many times he gets eliminated early from tournaments he could be expected to win. Can't you really tell the difference?
If Serral wins second Blizzcon, it will be a fantastic achievement. But in the current state of the game, many people will challenge and disregard it (rightfully). Serral is obviously already one of the best players ever, but your statements and opinions of him being the most dominant, player of the year etc. those are not facts. Everyone can have different criteria, I think your criteria are wrong but I dont mind you having your own opinion.
The way I see it, Serral is the most consistent player for 2018 and 2019. But 2018 player of the year and the most dominant was clearly Maru, he had the best results by far. 2019 we have no most dominant player. Serral again didnt participate in GSL with the best players in the world. And in tournaments with Koreans he was beaten by soO, Innovation and Stats. Won 1/4 premiere tournaments with Koreans participating, while the 1 was highly affected by game balance (Elazer was the runner-up...LOL) + AsusROG and WESG didnt even have all the best korean line-up due to format.
Serral is an amazing player but this over-glorification from foreignland is just ridiculous...
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses.
It's hilarious that you can even remotely think our behavior is comparable. I call Serral most dominant player ever because he is and best player of the year when he is, basing my statements on facts, not on the conviction that Code S is holy and untouchable and incredibly superior to any tournament.
My memory is still decent and I remember that you said multiple times that you hold BlizzCon in very high regard, what would happen if Serral were to win a second one? Your memory instead must not be sharp, as not only I never said Serral is the GOAT, I also never said he's the most skilled ever.
My reactions when Serral loses? I may not write anything or speak my mind saying things you don't like(like when I said Serral was not in his best shape because, ehm, he was actually losing games as opposed to being undefeated for months) or defend him against the vile attacks many posters love to make on this forum after he loses. I do not troll for entire days spamming sarcastic posts when Maru wins and I don't say that he sucks the many times he gets eliminated early from tournaments he could be expected to win. Can't you really tell the difference?
If Serral wins second Blizzcon, it will be a fantastic achievement. But in the current state of the game, many people will challenge and disregard it (rightfully). Serral is obviously already one of the best players ever, but your statements and opinions of him being the most dominant, player of the year etc. those are not facts. Everyone can have different criteria, I think your criteria are wrong but I dont mind you having your own opinion.
The way I see it, Serral is the most consistent player for 2018 and 2019. But 2018 player of the year and the most dominant was clearly Maru, he had the best results by far. 2019 we have no most dominant player. Serral again didnt participate in GSL with the best players in the world. And in tournaments with Koreans he was beaten by soO, Innovation and Stats. Won 1/4 premiere tournaments with Koreans participating, while the 1 was highly affected by game balance (Elazer was the runner-up...LOL) + AsusROG and WESG didnt even have all the best korean line-up due to format.
Serral is an amazing player but this over-glorification from foreignland is just ridiculous...
Statistics are not opinions, as simple as that. In 2018, Serral had the most dominant streak(both in matches and in tournaments) any player has ever achieved in Sc2, numbers just don't lie in that regard, those are facts; thinking that GSL is so much above WCS that Maru's year could be considered better than Serral's is one opinion. It is actually a not unreasonable one, to be honest, we can and always could discuss about it; that Maru was "clearly" the best one in 2018 is out of contention.
In 2019, Serral was not nearly as dominant, still reaching at worst the ro8 in the tournaments you mentioned would have been considered an outstanding result for any other player.
GSL vs the World was not heavily influenced by balance, it was played before the current patch and Elazer got to the finals by defeating Dark in ZvZ(balance, uh?) before being gifted his spot in the finals by an impressive amount of throws by Neeb; just a quick reminder, soO crashed 0-3 out of that tournament against TIME.
On October 28 2019 21:17 Obamarauder wrote: Really seems like a 4 zerg ro4. might not even watch this tournament if maru loses
Maru losing would be a huge bummer and definitely hurt my enjoyment of the tournament. I'm at least hoping for one of the protosses or Maru to show top form and make it through that bottom bracket. While zvz isn't such a bad matchup anymore, it's obviously not ideal. Need some sort of cool storyline goin other than "zerg op".
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses.
It's hilarious that you can even remotely think our behavior is comparable. I call Serral most dominant player ever because he is and best player of the year when he is, basing my statements on facts, not on the conviction that Code S is holy and untouchable and incredibly superior to any tournament.
My memory is still decent and I remember that you said multiple times that you hold BlizzCon in very high regard, what would happen if Serral were to win a second one? Your memory instead must not be sharp, as not only I never said Serral is the GOAT, I also never said he's the most skilled ever.
My reactions when Serral loses? I may not write anything or speak my mind saying things you don't like(like when I said Serral was not in his best shape because, ehm, he was actually losing games as opposed to being undefeated for months) or defend him against the vile attacks many posters love to make on this forum after he loses. I do not troll for entire days spamming sarcastic posts when Maru wins and I don't say that he sucks the many times he gets eliminated early from tournaments he could be expected to win. Can't you really tell the difference?
If Serral wins second Blizzcon, it will be a fantastic achievement. But in the current state of the game, many people will challenge and disregard it (rightfully). Serral is obviously already one of the best players ever, but your statements and opinions of him being the most dominant, player of the year etc. those are not facts. Everyone can have different criteria, I think your criteria are wrong but I dont mind you having your own opinion.
The way I see it, Serral is the most consistent player for 2018 and 2019. But 2018 player of the year and the most dominant was clearly Maru, he had the best results by far. 2019 we have no most dominant player. Serral again didnt participate in GSL with the best players in the world. And in tournaments with Koreans he was beaten by soO, Innovation and Stats. Won 1/4 premiere tournaments with Koreans participating, while the 1 was highly affected by game balance (Elazer was the runner-up...LOL) + AsusROG and WESG didnt even have all the best korean line-up due to format.
Serral is an amazing player but this over-glorification from foreignland is just ridiculous...
The complete round of 8 is being held on one single day? Are they serious?! I reckon, this is unworthy for the global finals and bad for Starcraft in general. I mean, who is able to watch a show that may well be about 8 hours long? It's very unlikely but it could be 37 maps for the viewers and 17 for the the two grand finalists if every series goes to full distance. I'm not a player but as a viewer I really much don't like this at all. Even if series lengths are average, that's far too long for me to enjoy watching and for the global finals I really would like to watch every game...
On October 28 2019 22:17 Evoleno wrote: The complete round of 8 is being held on one single day? Are they serious?! I reckon, this is unworthy for the global finals and bad for Starcraft in general. I mean, who is able to watch a show that may well be about 8 hours long? It's very unlikely but it could be 37 maps for the viewers and 17 for the the two grand finalists if every series goes to full distance. I'm not a player but as a viewer I really much don't like this at all. Even if series lengths are average, that's far too long for me to enjoy watching and for the global finals I really would like to watch every game...
That's my point! I wrote similar thing few posts above yours. 8-9 hours of Starcraft is difficult to watch, especially if you are in EU and finals starts like 4 AM...Previously Blizzcon was 2 days SC2 event. Ro8 - day1, semifinals and finals - day 2 (but not directly after Ro8, just 18 hours later...)
EPT
, it is very difficult to watch games after 1:00 AM and be able to wake up early morning... 
