The eight-player playoff bracket for the WCS Global Finals has been set after the conclusion of the last Ro16 group, where the Jin Air duo of Rogue and Trap advanced ahead of Elazer and Neeb.
The playoffs are set to be played on November 1st from BlizzCon 2019, with the full playoff bracket being played out in a one day event. Quarterfinalists are guaranteed at least $24,000 in prize money, while the championship will win this year's largest prize purse of $210,000. The broadcast is scheduled to begin on Friday, Nov 01 6:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) (visit BlizzCon.com for more scheduling information).
On October 27 2019 22:25 starkiller123 wrote: I’m thinking it will be an app Zerg semis this year, maybe trap can beat Reynor but other than that seems pretty clear cut to me
Yeah, that seems to pretty much be it. Still hoping for soO to go crazy and somehow make it but that dishonourable hive meta in ZvZ is just not his thing. Imagine if a year ago someone would have said that soO could win the global finals by playing three ZvZ matches... it would have sounded like a dream come true.
Classic really doesn't seem to have much of a chance though. They matched him with the world's best ZvP right away. With the current state of the game his chances seem to have gone from unlikely to impossible.
On October 27 2019 22:25 starkiller123 wrote: I’m thinking it will be an app Zerg semis this year, maybe trap can beat Reynor but other than that seems pretty clear cut to me
Yeah, that seems to pretty much be it. Still hoping for soO to go crazy and somehow make it but that dishonourable hive meta in ZvZ is just not his thing. Imagine if a year ago someone would have said that soO could win the global finals by playing three ZvZ matches... it would have sounded like a dream come true.
Classic really doesn't seem to have much of a chance though. They matched him with the world's best ZvP right away. With the current state of the game his chances seem to have gone from unlikely to impossible.
soO already had one opportunity to win BlizzCon out of his ZvZ, but he failed.
Rogue's ZvP being the best in the world? Maybe, maybe not; he surely has the most abusive playstyle in ZvP. Classic might surprise us with some tailored builds, I would be delighted.
Damn they couldn't even give Maru a match against Reynor to start :/ With the current balance and his bracket he is the automatic goat if he wins this event. Hoping for the soO over Serral upset.
On October 28 2019 00:47 Poaktree wrote: This could easily be Dark-Serral finals. If Dark beats Maru, Rogue is not going to stop him.
Darks only chance to reach final is to hope Classic somehow gets rid of Rogue. Dark almost never beats Rogue, his ZvZ is at least 1 tier below and Rogue is also a lot better at these kind of tournaments.
Serral vs soO: This was probably the best draw for Serral: soO did beat him at IEM but he’s fallen off considerably since that day. The style Serral plays is simply superior. soO will put up a fight of course but Serral is the best player in the world for a reason.
Reynor vs Trap: Of all the initial matches we gave this one might be the most evenly matched. You have two players making their first RO76. The meta clearly favors Reynor, but Trap is a JAG and no doubt will have some time to bring out some special ideas. His PvZ approach was very interesting to watch last night and Reynor has been known to forget to make infestors. As for Reynor, just ask Serral how good he is.
Rogue vs Classic: IEM Katowice 2018 Final Rematch. The state of high level PvZ is in a pretty bad way. Rogue knows it. So does Classic. Rogue had to be pretty happy with this draw. That being said, don’t underestimate how motivated Classic is with his impending doom/military service, AND... if there is one Protoss who is able to answer our current PvZ meta questions... can you think of a better Toss player to solve it? Rogue is the favorite because he’s the Zerg but if I’m betting on any Protoss to upset him....
Dark vs Maru: What a difference a year makes, huh? A year ago at this time, Maru was crushing it on his way to #1 Korea. Now Dark has that moniker. As some of you have mentioned before, Maru is one if the players they trust to get TvZ figured out. You’re right. Dark is also significantly better. He showed good form over the year and looked frightening in ST2. For once the meta isn’t in a place he can whine about it. As with Trap, Maru does have JAG to help him out though and has said he remembers the sOs debacle last year as much as we do. Both of these players are highly motivated so I’m expect this match to go to the distance and I have no idea who should come out on top. It all depends on what version of Maru shows up
Predictions: Serral (confidence: Extreme), Reynor (confidence: none), Classic -calling for the upset (Confidence: Low), Dark (Confidence: 50-50).
Ro4 Predictions: Serral over Reynor: Confidence High, Dark over Classic: Confidence Moderate
Serral (best ZvZ in the world) Rogue (best ZvP in the world) Dark (best ZvT in the world)
They are also the three form players (won the last three major tournaments). I'm hard pressed to see how they don't win their respective Ro8s as both form and historical strength is in their favor. The only one I'd question probably is Dark vs Maru, as historically Maru has had the best TvZ in the world.
Maru needs revenge! Remember how people doubt Maru in their GSL rematch vs Stats after ST1? Then Maru 2-0d Stats in GSL. I think the same is going to happen this time. Maru 3 Dark 1
I am a huge Maru fan... but I can't see him winning this year with that meta. Zerg is currently too favored on top lvl. He must play a level above Dark, Rogue and Serral. Which is pretty hard
On October 28 2019 01:55 od1himself wrote: I am a huge Maru fan... but I can't see him winning this year with that meta. Zerg is currently too favored on top lvl. He must play a level above Dark, Rogue and Serral. Which is pretty hard
So I would bet on zvz semis... awesome...
It's not undoable, the issue is that even if he gets to the finals he played 2 high profiled TvZs, any zerg who would face him already has enough of material... there's a reason why everyone and their mother say that Terran gets the most from preparation and the less when they cannot prepare. And now this ...
Serral 3 : 0 soO soO will meet a brick wall and Serral continues his lossless win streak Reynor 3 : 1 Trap Traps chances are very slim, but he will try hard and gets one point on the board Rogue 3 : 0 Classic Rogue will devour Classic for breakfast Dark 3 : 2 Maru Maru will fight valiantly, but will still succumb to the swarm of zerg
Full zerg semifinals incoming
Serral 3 : 0 Reynor Serral forgets how to lose, and is looking to literally clean sweep Blizzcon Rogue 3 : 2 Dark This will be a close bloodbath on a knife-edge, but Rogue will barely come out with the victory
Serral 4 : 1 Rogue Rogue tries to prove korean zerg strength to Serral, but Serral slaps it down and nearly clean sweeps Blizzcon
I will be rooting for the non-zerg though, especially Maru. Would love to see Serral vs Maru (as does everyone), but I think this is a curse now and we will never see it happen lmao
Rooting for every non-zerg here, at least in the Ro8. That's not a balance whine, I just like ZvZ the least out of all the matchups in the game and would be very sad if that's what the Ro4 looked like.
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
On October 27 2019 23:45 Nakajin wrote: Maybe, just maybe, Trap can beat Raynor? Should be all zvz for now on, Maru had the best shot but I don't see him beating Dark
Maru-Dark could go either way, but Dark has to be considered the favourite right now, yeah. Trap-Reynor could be a close match, I'm not 100% sure what to expect. Trap is probably the best Protoss in the world right now.
The other two matches seem more certain to me. Of course soO could always pull out something spectacular, but I think it won't be close. And Classic... we've seen that he can come out with incredible tailored prep builds. He could do it. He'll probably find some way to make a series out of it. But he should get wrecked.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Sure, Blizzard rigged the bracket in Serral's favor.
On October 27 2019 23:45 Nakajin wrote: Maybe, just maybe, Trap can beat Raynor? Should be all zvz for now on, Maru had the best shot but I don't see him beating Dark
Maru-Dark could go either way, but Dark has to be considered the favourite right now, yeah. Trap-Reynor could be a close match, I'm not 100% sure what to expect. Trap is probably the best Protoss in the world right now.
The other two matches seem more certain to me. Of course soO could always pull out something spectacular, but I think it won't be close. And Classic... we've seen that he can come out with incredible tailored prep builds. He could do it. He'll probably find some way to make a series out of it. But he should get wrecked.
soO is actually pretty good in vSerral even when he's slacking. I believe those 2 victories in the last NW were when he was slumping hard too.
Honestly, I'm hoping for the less ZvZ possible (not complaining about balance, just from a spectator point of view), but it's looking like an all zerg ro4 is coming.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
He's more saying that it ended with stacked one side and less takced second side...
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Your notion is real, but (when writing this) its also valid for Reynor and SoO.
Brackets now may favor Serral, but does they favor him then when we have the final match under our scrutiny (assuming Serral makes it that far)?
Successful Maru will have effectively best available, relevant ZvZ tactical data in use in the Finals, naturally applicable against himself too (assuming Maru makes it that far)?
Instead, its not that clear Maru must (or at least should) use his all Anti-Zerg strats before the final, as Zergs won't likely use them either unless necessary, but Zergs who use Anti-Maru strats succesfully against him also expand other Zergs' playbook when doing so, and Maru will be equally aware of that in that same moment it (may) happen.
Maru's uphill is all those zergs he must struggle against if being successful (and Protoss suck as expected), but in that uphill he can still himself control to some degree what he show to his Zerg opponents. Perceiving Zergs will all see what Maru want them to see.
Also Protoss players' experience vs Zerg is more beneficial for Maru, than it is for Zergs. Maru's perk in these circumstances is the fact that he is the only Terran left. No other Terran will interfere with his potential strats.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Man I know everyone is complaining but I just came back from WOL very early hots I skipped hots because I hated swarmhosts so basically I'm coming from infestor broodlord and swarmhost to current meta of infestor broodlord and swarm host.
Really hating the design of zergy bois, wish you couldnt neural massive units it kinda destroyed every army I have seen out of terran and protoss, if it wasnt in the game would zerg still be good?
On October 28 2019 04:31 Conut wrote: Man I know everyone is complaining but I just came back from WOL very early hots I skipped hots because I hated swarmhosts so basically I'm coming from infestor broodlord and swarmhost to current meta of infestor broodlord and swarm host.
Really hating the design of zergy bois, wish you couldnt neural massive units it kinda destroyed every army I have seen out of terran and protoss, if it wasnt in the game would zerg still be good?
I'm sure zerg would still be fine, right now I'm not bothered by broodlord infestor in my ladder games I just find it incredibly awful to watch
On October 28 2019 04:31 Conut wrote: Man I know everyone is complaining but I just came back from WOL very early hots I skipped hots because I hated swarmhosts so basically I'm coming from infestor broodlord and swarmhost to current meta of infestor broodlord and swarm host.
Really hating the design of zergy bois, wish you couldnt neural massive units it kinda destroyed every army I have seen out of terran and protoss, if it wasnt in the game would zerg still be good?
I'm sure zerg would still be fine, right now I'm not bothered by broodlord infestor in my ladder games I just find it incredibly awful to watch
Its boiled over for me from spectator to player, the zerg seem to have an answer for everything, mass air units mass ground units, chokepoints early defense movable buildings I usually dont look at balance since I'm just like low masters and I am always macroing and controlling my army like garbage but i still cant help but hate the balance.
On October 28 2019 04:31 Conut wrote: Man I know everyone is complaining but I just came back from WOL very early hots I skipped hots because I hated swarmhosts so basically I'm coming from infestor broodlord and swarmhost to current meta of infestor broodlord and swarm host.
Really hating the design of zergy bois, wish you couldnt neural massive units it kinda destroyed every army I have seen out of terran and protoss, if it wasnt in the game would zerg still be good?
I'm sure zerg would still be fine, right now I'm not bothered by broodlord infestor in my ladder games I just find it incredibly awful to watch
Its boiled over for me from spectator to player, the zerg seem to have an answer for everything, mass air units mass ground units, chokepoints early defense movable buildings I usually dont look at balance since I'm just like low masters and I am always macroing and controlling my army like garbage but i still cant help but hate the balance.
At least I'm not protoss lol
yeah I'm diamond 1 right now and I'm so bad balance dosent really effect my games lol
On October 28 2019 04:31 Conut wrote: Man I know everyone is complaining but I just came back from WOL very early hots I skipped hots because I hated swarmhosts so basically I'm coming from infestor broodlord and swarmhost to current meta of infestor broodlord and swarm host.
Really hating the design of zergy bois, wish you couldnt neural massive units it kinda destroyed every army I have seen out of terran and protoss, if it wasnt in the game would zerg still be good?
I'm sure zerg would still be fine, right now I'm not bothered by broodlord infestor in my ladder games I just find it incredibly awful to watch
Its boiled over for me from spectator to player, the zerg seem to have an answer for everything, mass air units mass ground units, chokepoints early defense movable buildings I usually dont look at balance since I'm just like low masters and I am always macroing and controlling my army like garbage but i still cant help but hate the balance.
At least I'm not protoss lol
yeah I'm diamond 1 right now and I'm so bad balance dosent really effect my games lol
5 Zergs, 2 Protoss, 1 Terran. The RO8 representation mirrors exactly how I feel about the state of the game rightnow.
The only reason Zergs are getting so much attention is because even the Protoss are feeling the crunch. Back when BL/infestor were dominating at the end of WoL, there was still the Parting immortal timing that kept winrates pretty decent for the Protoss (and archon toilets too).
On October 28 2019 05:09 Pentarp wrote: 5 Zergs, 2 Protoss, 1 Terran. The RO8 representation mirrors exactly how I feel about the state of the game rightnow.
The only reason Zergs are getting so much attention is because even the Protoss are feeling the crunch. Back when BL/infestor were dominating at the end of WoL, there was still the Parting immortal timing that kept winrates pretty decent for the Protoss (and archon toilets too).
Archon toilets was the coolest thing toss have had
On October 28 2019 05:09 Pentarp wrote: 5 Zergs, 2 Protoss, 1 Terran. The RO8 representation mirrors exactly how I feel about the state of the game rightnow.
The only reason Zergs are getting so much attention is because even the Protoss are feeling the crunch. Back when BL/infestor were dominating at the end of WoL, there was still the Parting immortal timing that kept winrates pretty decent for the Protoss (and archon toilets too).
There was also the MC style which emerged right at the end of WoL and looked promising. Basically you had MS, some archons, some colossi, four to six carriers, templars and many void rays. And it looked nice and dandy even at GSL RO8 A little bit polishing and it would be IMO playable. Even without the archon toilet(which was possible if you got the chance, obv ).
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
Then there's some random ZvZ hate like it was the monodimensional matchup it used to be in HoTS.
But hey, I start seeing more people complaining about every trick the Zerg race has: "free units, omg". Is TL turning into Twitch chat, I wonder?
I'll repeat it once more: your constant, mindless whining against Protoss made Blizzard overnerf a not overpowered race, so that the(figured out) Immortal timings are now less effective than ever and you can enjoy your beloved Broodlord Infestor composition more often than ever.
On October 28 2019 06:08 Howard_Kao wrote: Will letting infestors not able to neuro massive units make the zerg late games a more enjoyable thing to watch or not?
It certainly shouldn't happen to the hero unit I don't know, massing spellcasters is bad. They nerfed the shit out of ravens and now they sit and watch infestors... like, seriously? Where's the decisive action now?
On October 28 2019 05:09 Pentarp wrote: 5 Zergs, 2 Protoss, 1 Terran. The RO8 representation mirrors exactly how I feel about the state of the game rightnow.
The only reason Zergs are getting so much attention is because even the Protoss are feeling the crunch. Back when BL/infestor were dominating at the end of WoL, there was still the Parting immortal timing that kept winrates pretty decent for the Protoss (and archon toilets too).
Archon toilets was the coolest thing toss have had
Finally, someone who sees it the way I do, although I don't know if it was the coolest. It needs to be brought back, albeit in a nerfed format. It was always fun to see it being used, except when it completely wrecked half an army. I'd love to see it again.
On October 28 2019 06:13 Xain0n wrote: Same old, same old.
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
Then there's some random ZvZ hate like it was the monodimensional matchup it used to be in HoTS.
But hey, I start seeing more people complaining about every trick the Zerg race has: "free units, omg". Is TL turning into Twitch chat, I wonder?
I'll repeat it once more: your constant, mindless whining against Protoss made Blizzard overnerf a not overpowered race, so that the(figured out) Immortal timings are now less effective than ever and you can enjoy your beloved Broodlord Infestor composition more often than ever.
The whining against protoss immortal pushes was justified, and the strat was rightfully nerfed. The problem is that Blizz did not want to hear the also rightful concerns about Zerg lategame. We all now know about the BL range bug yet its still not fixed, for example. Your perception in this is just plain wrong. We cant keep something that is obviously broken in the game and argument with: Hey, just do not let them get there. Do an immortal push, which is also very strong. It leads to boring games for both players and viewers.
I get that you are happy with all this, because your beloved Serral and Reynor are doing great, but its not good for the sport, game overall and its not even good for the community.
Just try to be less biased and see the big picture pls
P.S. TvP is in the best state it was over the past couple of years. Protoss is not overnerfed, its just that Zerg is OP, especially in ZvP. Even the players are openly admiting this, so why not be open about it in the community as well?
On October 28 2019 06:13 Xain0n wrote: Same old, same old.
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
Then there's some random ZvZ hate like it was the monodimensional matchup it used to be in HoTS.
But hey, I start seeing more people complaining about every trick the Zerg race has: "free units, omg". Is TL turning into Twitch chat, I wonder?
I'll repeat it once more: your constant, mindless whining against Protoss made Blizzard overnerf a not overpowered race, so that the(figured out) Immortal timings are now less effective than ever and you can enjoy your beloved Broodlord Infestor composition more often than ever.
Those immortal timings really were fricken OP, though. It was probably one of the main reasons why Serral said ZvP was his toughest MU. Only problem was that Blizzard lacked foresight when they nerfed Protoss' early-mid timing potential without understanding the advantage lategame Zerg had. They did this even while Aligulac was showing Protoss as clearly lagging behind, and Zerg ahead. At that time, going lategame v Zerg wasn't as common, due to those early-mid aggression power, so people weren't so vocal about lategame Zerg. That nerf to Protoss only made it much more apparent, since it made it easier to go into lategame.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Geez. Brackets had nothing to do with Blizz and everything to do with how the players performed in the season and in the ro16.
Yea protoss needed the nerf midgame, they just need a buff late game, two immortals shouldn't hold off a 200 200 zerg army but holy moly pvz looks super sad late game right now
On October 28 2019 01:34 Monster3 wrote: A number of players got their best match-ups;
Serral (best ZvZ in the world) Rogue (best ZvP in the world) Dark (best ZvT in the world)
They are also the three form players (won the last three major tournaments). I'm hard pressed to see how they don't win their respective Ro8s as both form and historical strength is in their favor. The only one I'd question probably is Dark vs Maru, as historically Maru has had the best TvZ in the world.
alligulac says something else
rogue best zvp ? rogue vs p is 62,2 % winrate / serral 68,6% winrate dark best zvt ? dark vs t is 65,9% winrate / serral 67 % winrate
if you have to bet on a zerg to play vs any other race serral would be the smartest choice on any matchup
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Geez. Brackets had nothing to do with Blizz and everything to do with how the players performed in the season and in the ro16.
Wasn't Maru set to go against either Dark or Reynor and it was just random draw at that point? I know parts of it were decided but I thought the final set parts of the bracket were random draw. Him against Reynor first would be a much easier bracket.
On October 28 2019 01:34 Monster3 wrote: A number of players got their best match-ups;
Serral (best ZvZ in the world) Rogue (best ZvP in the world) Dark (best ZvT in the world)
They are also the three form players (won the last three major tournaments). I'm hard pressed to see how they don't win their respective Ro8s as both form and historical strength is in their favor. The only one I'd question probably is Dark vs Maru, as historically Maru has had the best TvZ in the world.
alligulac says something else
rogue best zvp ? rogue vs p is 62,2 % winrate / serral 68,6% winrate dark best zvt ? dark vs t is 65,9% winrate / serral 67 % winrate
if you have to bet on a zerg to play vs any other race serral would be the smartest choice on any matchup
Be careful how you quote statistics. 65.9% isn't necessarily worse than 67% if the qualities of opponents are different. Serral is indeed the best by far at ZvP, though. For now, Dark has proven that he is at least on par with Serral at ZvT.
On October 28 2019 06:13 Xain0n wrote: Same old, same old.
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
Then there's some random ZvZ hate like it was the monodimensional matchup it used to be in HoTS.
But hey, I start seeing more people complaining about every trick the Zerg race has: "free units, omg". Is TL turning into Twitch chat, I wonder?
I'll repeat it once more: your constant, mindless whining against Protoss made Blizzard overnerf a not overpowered race, so that the(figured out) Immortal timings are now less effective than ever and you can enjoy your beloved Broodlord Infestor composition more often than ever.
Can you blame people? Many people actually root for their own race, and this year has been extremely tough for protoss and terran fans. Its just all zerg.. I can accept it that my favorite race doesnt always win, but this year is just frustrating as a terran fan. At some point people will start complaining about it..
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
Man this looks grim for maru...he has to go through probably two zergs to get to the finals and even if he does manage to make it, he would have given away a lot about his strategy, weaknesses, etc.
i honestly think 5 zerg in world championship ro8 is as bad as 7 toss in ro8 of super tournament. elazer was the only zerg to lose a series against a toss-terran. and now its extremely likely that we both get a ZVZ final and zerg taking their 3d world championship.
On October 28 2019 10:29 GalacticFox wrote: Man this looks grim for maru...he has to go through probably two zergs to get to the finals and even if he does manage to make it, he would have given away a lot about his strategy, weaknesses, etc.
I think Trap has a better shot to go far, Reynor is doable and then if soO somehow manage to beat Serral it's also possible, can't see him winning the final under any circumstance tho
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
On October 28 2019 06:56 MarianoSC2 wrote:
The whining against protoss immortal pushes was justified, and the strat was rightfully nerfed. The problem is that Blizz did not want to hear the also rightful concerns about Zerg lategame. We all now know about the BL range bug yet its still not fixed, for example. Your perception in this is just plain wrong. We cant keep something that is obviously broken in the game and argument with: Hey, just do not let them get there. Do an immortal push, which is also very strong. It leads to boring games for both players and viewers.
I get that you are happy with all this, because your beloved Serral and Reynor are doing great, but its not good for the sport, game overall and its not even good for the community.
Just try to be less biased and see the big picture pls
P.S. TvP is in the best state it was over the past couple of years. Protoss is not overnerfed, its just that Zerg is OP, especially in ZvP. Even the players are openly admiting this, so why not be open about it in the community as well?
Nerfing Warp Prism's range and cost was a righful decision(I was for it) while decreasing the cost of Overlord's speed was a very bad idea as it was not giving Protoss better options to face Zerg in the lategame; constantly whining against Protoss created the perception the race was plainly overpowered in the matchup, leading to the consequences we can observe now. Instead, Warp Prisms+Immortals were needed to counterbalance Zerg's superiority in the late game! TvP earlier this year is another perfect example of a kind of percentually balanced but incredibly uneven matchup, with roles reversed(Terran had to push before speedy Tempests could become impossible to deal with); in that case, however, many tears were shed against the inevitability of Protoss's strategies. Guess why? Ironic, isn't it?
In any of case, I must have not explained myself well since I do not support the idea of grossly uneven matchups and I agree with you when you say that this leads to boring games. I also agree that Zerg is too strong in ZvP right now and that TvP is enjoyable at the moment but you should not overcommit to nerfing Zerg now; Terran is actually favored in the lategame against Protoss with slow Tempests in addiction to weak Mothership and Carriers, you could fix ZvP's lategame without ruining TvP as it is at the moment.
I don't like any race being overpowered and you should be the one who's glad of Zerg being overpowered, Serral definitely does not need that to triumph while your beloved Rogue curiously when he can abuse Zerg at its worst(or best).
On October 28 2019 07:59 JJH777 wrote:
Wasn't Maru set to go against either Dark or Reynor and it was just random draw at that point? I know parts of it were decided but I thought the final set parts of the bracket were random draw. Him against Reynor first would be a much easier bracket.
No, there was no randomness except for the side of the bracket Reynor and Rogue were going to be drawn; Maru's pairing was predetermined, he would have faced Reynor if Elazer would have been the one advancing.
On October 28 2019 01:34 Monster3 wrote: A number of players got their best match-ups;
Serral (best ZvZ in the world) Rogue (best ZvP in the world) Dark (best ZvT in the world)
They are also the three form players (won the last three major tournaments). I'm hard pressed to see how they don't win their respective Ro8s as both form and historical strength is in their favor. The only one I'd question probably is Dark vs Maru, as historically Maru has had the best TvZ in the world.
alligulac says something else
rogue best zvp ? rogue vs p is 62,2 % winrate / serral 68,6% winrate dark best zvt ? dark vs t is 65,9% winrate / serral 67 % winrate
if you have to bet on a zerg to play vs any other race serral would be the smartest choice on any matchup
Be careful how you quote statistics. 65.9% isn't necessarily worse than 67% if the qualities of opponents are different. Serral is indeed the best by far at ZvP, though. For now, Dark has proven that he is at least on par with Serral at ZvT.
Overall, Dark's ZvT was far more impressive last year even if it looked as sharp as ever(even better, he actually eliminated Maru this time) at Super Tournament.
Everyone has a hard opponent except Serral... wonder why that's so
Also, not sure why people think Zerg is imbalanced or something. Trap beat Elazer, who was a GSL vs. The World finalist. We all know how much GSL vs. The World counts when it comes to skill level, right? Winning GSL vs. The World makes you the best player in the world... so getting second place is nothing to scoff at.
Here are the facts about the draw: there were two pools: Winners and Runners-Up
Group A: Dark, Serral, Reynor, Rogue Group B: soO, Maru, Classic, Trap
Every player in Group A would be paired with someone in Group B.
Since Serral and Dark were both #1 in their regions they were required to be placed on opposite sides of the bracket.
Any player who won their group would not be placed with the corresponding runner up from their group and vice versa: If the following pairings were drawn, they were redrawn: Dark vs soO, Serral vs Maru, Reynor vs Classic, Rogue vs Trap
Each player had only three potential opponents they would be paired with in the Ro8. Its not rigged: it’s just BlizzCon and no one is here by accident.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
Agreed much with this. I don't get the logic how Serral's performances in these two years surpassed GSL's caliber players during their peak performances. You cannot simply put Serral's current performances topped over the Innovation's past performances.
For the case of foreigners, I would like to swap Stephano with Naniwa even though the latter lacked the sportsmanship value.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
Agreed much with this. I don't get the logic how Serral's performances in these two years surpassed GSL's caliber players during their peak performances. You cannot simply put Serral's current performances topped over the Innovation's past performances.
For the case of foreigners, I would like to swap Stephano with Naniwa even though the latter lacked the sportsmanship value.
Not to mention the highly zerg favoured meta Serral is playing in...
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
Agreed much with this. I don't get the logic how Serral's performances in these two years surpassed GSL's caliber players during their peak performances. You cannot simply put Serral's current performances topped over the Innovation's past performances.
For the case of foreigners, I would like to swap Stephano with Naniwa even though the latter lacked the sportsmanship value.
If you’re honestly suggesting Naniwa is above Serral in the pantheon of foreigners you’re an utter lunatic.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible.
Liquipedia says all the games will be played out on Nov 1? Wow...that must be exhausting for the players then...I wish semifinals was on Nov 2 and finals on Nov 3.
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Is trying and failing worse than not trying at all?
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Is trying and failing worse than not trying at all?
In every style. Literally didn't win any preparational tournament.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
Really low skill era ? So you are saying that Korean top players from like 2013-2014 would crush Serral and Maru easily ? I would say the skill levels from top players are far better than anything from the past. Game has evolved, so have the players. Was the competition tougher back then ? Yeah, it was. But that doesnt mean that the skill level was somehow better. I have seen great new plays from players now in these current Blizzcon games. So game is still evolving and players are still creating new strategies and tricks to get their play better and better.
What goes to Stephano being better....yeah, he used roaches and then swarmhosts. He won a tournament and otherwise his accomplishments were very mediocre even in Europe. How in earth is he better than a player that has been top-4 (or even number 1) player in the world for almost 2 years now ?
On October 28 2019 12:03 swarminfestor wrote:
Agreed much with this. I don't get the logic how Serral's performances in these two years surpassed GSL's caliber players during their peak performances. You cannot simply put Serral's current performances topped over the Innovation's past performances.
For the case of foreigners, I would like to swap Stephano with Naniwa even though the latter lacked the sportsmanship value.
Well again its hard to compare different timelines. But the absolute level of play is much higher now at the top altough the competition is more narrow.
"I don't get the logic how Serral's performances in these two years surpassed GSL's caliber players during their peak performances."
He wins over 50% of tournaments he enters. He had 40+ games winstreak in tournaments in 2018 and won almost all of them including Blizzcon and GSL vs. the World. He fairs excellent against the toughest Koreans in the field. Almost all other players fear to face him and that has been the case like over a year now. He is expected to win every tournament he enters and anything but winning is dissapointment. How many players in the history have had the same effect on other players or even same expectations ? MVP, Life, Innovation... ? Not many. And how many players have been able to remain in the top that long ? Again, not that many if none. Again, hard to compare players in different times, but his accomplishments are unique in the history of Starcraft 2.
And what goes to Naniwa, lol. Again, few good results and otherwise just mediocre. And no, you just cant argue that Stephano or Naniwa were better only because of "tougher competition". They were never really that near of the top. Maybe few peaks, but thats it. Otherwise their results were really mediocre. If we even look at foreinger scene; Serral dominated that over a year and except from Raynor still does. Naniwa or Stephano were very volatile even in their peak. They could challenge good Koreans the other day and next day lose to Elfi, Tefel or Bly. And what goes to tournament wins, there isnt even anything to compare to. Serral is just so much better than they were combined.
On October 28 2019 12:10 GalacticFox wrote:
Not to mention the highly zerg favoured meta Serral is playing in...
LoL, yeah, the whole 2 years of pure Zerg dominance...
On October 28 2019 14:33 roflQUAFFLE wrote: If you remove Serral's wins from the past 2 years, I highly doubt anyone would be crying Zerg imba.
Yup.
Its funny that people like to remind how for example Life, Stephano, Naniwa, Parting or even MC have been SO CREATIVE AND REVOLUTIONAL at their gameplay. But when we talk about Serral, nobody seems to remember his burrow roach harass, countless ling runbys, drops in multiple angles and bases same time, perfect surrounds, stunning scouting almost every game etc. etc. And all of this is forgotten because "zerg so imba".
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses.
It's hilarious that you can even remotely think our behavior is comparable. I call Serral most dominant player ever because he is and best player of the year when he is, basing my statements on facts, not on the conviction that Code S is holy and untouchable and incredibly superior to any tournament.
My memory is still decent and I remember that you said multiple times that you hold BlizzCon in very high regard, what would happen if Serral were to win a second one? Your memory instead must not be sharp, as not only I never said Serral is the GOAT, I also never said he's the most skilled ever.
My reactions when Serral loses? I may not write anything or speak my mind saying things you don't like(like when I said Serral was not in his best shape because, ehm, he was actually losing games as opposed to being undefeated for months) or defend him against the vile attacks many posters love to make on this forum after he loses. I do not troll for entire days spamming sarcastic posts when Maru wins and I don't say that he sucks the many times he gets eliminated early from tournaments he could be expected to win. Can't you really tell the difference?
Lol people complaining about bracket beeing rigged.
If the Ro16 is anything to go by, Serral has got this. Maru evading the dream match again, but only because he wants to play Serral in the finals for the ultimate showdown
I hope all Korean Terrans are rallying behind Maru and giving him the builds to make this happen.
Is it just me, or streaming times are just mess? It used to be 2 days event with normal streaming times. In Europe (CET) Ro8 starts at 8 PM and finals at 3:30 AM... Why? I think there would more viewers if streaming time will be normal. Semifinals and finals at 8 PM 2nd November...
And as far as I remember, there were always some kind of problems, so it is possible that finals will starts 4:30 rather than 3:30 AM.
Well, for me it would only Ro8 to watch. After you turn 30 years old and have family , it is very difficult to watch games after 1:00 AM and be able to wake up early morning...
One thing i'll note. the koreans ALL seem to have it out for serral. you can bet that Jin Air Lab team are cooking up some crazy stuff for their players!
it isn't just Serral vs Soo.. its Serral vs Korea.
that to me is why he is so impressive. Every korean is helping every other korean who is facing serral to prep.. korea wants him taken down and so far.. he has beaten their every move!
Can't wait for the finals! Hope he gets past raynor who i think will be a big challenge.. I can see a Dark vs Serral final!
As for the Maru discussion.. he peaked in the proxy meta and hasn't really done anything of note since (except bum out most tournaments even with the jin air labs help!)
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses.
It's hilarious that you can even remotely think our behavior is comparable. I call Serral most dominant player ever because he is and best player of the year when he is, basing my statements on facts, not on the conviction that Code S is holy and untouchable and incredibly superior to any tournament.
My memory is still decent and I remember that you said multiple times that you hold BlizzCon in very high regard, what would happen if Serral were to win a second one? Your memory instead must not be sharp, as not only I never said Serral is the GOAT, I also never said he's the most skilled ever.
My reactions when Serral loses? I may not write anything or speak my mind saying things you don't like(like when I said Serral was not in his best shape because, ehm, he was actually losing games as opposed to being undefeated for months) or defend him against the vile attacks many posters love to make on this forum after he loses. I do not troll for entire days spamming sarcastic posts when Maru wins and I don't say that he sucks the many times he gets eliminated early from tournaments he could be expected to win. Can't you really tell the difference?
Your opinion = facts - okay I won't respond to any of your comments anymore. Don't bother replying.
On October 28 2019 20:21 La1 wrote: One thing i'll note. the koreans ALL seem to have it out for serral. you can bet that Jin Air Lab team are cooking up some crazy stuff for their players!
it isn't just Serral vs Soo.. its Serral vs Korea.
that to me is why he is so impressive. Every korean is helping every other korean who is facing serral to prep.. korea wants him taken down and so far.. he has beaten their every move!
Can't wait for the finals! Hope he gets past raynor who i think will be a big challenge.. I can see a Dark vs Serral final!
As for the Maru discussion.. he peaked in the proxy meta and hasn't really done anything of note since (except bum out most tournaments even with the jin air labs help!)
Agree
Not to mention it was sOs that helped Maru to develop that proxy meta. Maru has always been overrated by his fanboys.
Outside of his proxy meta, his resume is quite "average"
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses.
It's hilarious that you can even remotely think our behavior is comparable. I call Serral most dominant player ever because he is and best player of the year when he is, basing my statements on facts, not on the conviction that Code S is holy and untouchable and incredibly superior to any tournament.
My memory is still decent and I remember that you said multiple times that you hold BlizzCon in very high regard, what would happen if Serral were to win a second one? Your memory instead must not be sharp, as not only I never said Serral is the GOAT, I also never said he's the most skilled ever.
My reactions when Serral loses? I may not write anything or speak my mind saying things you don't like(like when I said Serral was not in his best shape because, ehm, he was actually losing games as opposed to being undefeated for months) or defend him against the vile attacks many posters love to make on this forum after he loses. I do not troll for entire days spamming sarcastic posts when Maru wins and I don't say that he sucks the many times he gets eliminated early from tournaments he could be expected to win. Can't you really tell the difference?
If Serral wins second Blizzcon, it will be a fantastic achievement. But in the current state of the game, many people will challenge and disregard it (rightfully). Serral is obviously already one of the best players ever, but your statements and opinions of him being the most dominant, player of the year etc. those are not facts. Everyone can have different criteria, I think your criteria are wrong but I dont mind you having your own opinion.
The way I see it, Serral is the most consistent player for 2018 and 2019. But 2018 player of the year and the most dominant was clearly Maru, he had the best results by far. 2019 we have no most dominant player. Serral again didnt participate in GSL with the best players in the world. And in tournaments with Koreans he was beaten by soO, Innovation and Stats. Won 1/4 premiere tournaments with Koreans participating, while the 1 was highly affected by game balance (Elazer was the runner-up...LOL) + AsusROG and WESG didnt even have all the best korean line-up due to format.
Serral is an amazing player but this over-glorification from foreignland is just ridiculous...
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses.
It's hilarious that you can even remotely think our behavior is comparable. I call Serral most dominant player ever because he is and best player of the year when he is, basing my statements on facts, not on the conviction that Code S is holy and untouchable and incredibly superior to any tournament.
My memory is still decent and I remember that you said multiple times that you hold BlizzCon in very high regard, what would happen if Serral were to win a second one? Your memory instead must not be sharp, as not only I never said Serral is the GOAT, I also never said he's the most skilled ever.
My reactions when Serral loses? I may not write anything or speak my mind saying things you don't like(like when I said Serral was not in his best shape because, ehm, he was actually losing games as opposed to being undefeated for months) or defend him against the vile attacks many posters love to make on this forum after he loses. I do not troll for entire days spamming sarcastic posts when Maru wins and I don't say that he sucks the many times he gets eliminated early from tournaments he could be expected to win. Can't you really tell the difference?
If Serral wins second Blizzcon, it will be a fantastic achievement. But in the current state of the game, many people will challenge and disregard it (rightfully). Serral is obviously already one of the best players ever, but your statements and opinions of him being the most dominant, player of the year etc. those are not facts. Everyone can have different criteria, I think your criteria are wrong but I dont mind you having your own opinion.
The way I see it, Serral is the most consistent player for 2018 and 2019. But 2018 player of the year and the most dominant was clearly Maru, he had the best results by far. 2019 we have no most dominant player. Serral again didnt participate in GSL with the best players in the world. And in tournaments with Koreans he was beaten by soO, Innovation and Stats. Won 1/4 premiere tournaments with Koreans participating, while the 1 was highly affected by game balance (Elazer was the runner-up...LOL) + AsusROG and WESG didnt even have all the best korean line-up due to format.
Serral is an amazing player but this over-glorification from foreignland is just ridiculous...
Statistics are not opinions, as simple as that. In 2018, Serral had the most dominant streak(both in matches and in tournaments) any player has ever achieved in Sc2, numbers just don't lie in that regard, those are facts; thinking that GSL is so much above WCS that Maru's year could be considered better than Serral's is one opinion. It is actually a not unreasonable one, to be honest, we can and always could discuss about it; that Maru was "clearly" the best one in 2018 is out of contention.
In 2019, Serral was not nearly as dominant, still reaching at worst the ro8 in the tournaments you mentioned would have been considered an outstanding result for any other player.
GSL vs the World was not heavily influenced by balance, it was played before the current patch and Elazer got to the finals by defeating Dark in ZvZ(balance, uh?) before being gifted his spot in the finals by an impressive amount of throws by Neeb; just a quick reminder, soO crashed 0-3 out of that tournament against TIME.
On October 28 2019 21:17 Obamarauder wrote: Really seems like a 4 zerg ro4. might not even watch this tournament if maru loses
Maru losing would be a huge bummer and definitely hurt my enjoyment of the tournament. I'm at least hoping for one of the protosses or Maru to show top form and make it through that bottom bracket. While zvz isn't such a bad matchup anymore, it's obviously not ideal. Need some sort of cool storyline goin other than "zerg op".
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses.
It's hilarious that you can even remotely think our behavior is comparable. I call Serral most dominant player ever because he is and best player of the year when he is, basing my statements on facts, not on the conviction that Code S is holy and untouchable and incredibly superior to any tournament.
My memory is still decent and I remember that you said multiple times that you hold BlizzCon in very high regard, what would happen if Serral were to win a second one? Your memory instead must not be sharp, as not only I never said Serral is the GOAT, I also never said he's the most skilled ever.
My reactions when Serral loses? I may not write anything or speak my mind saying things you don't like(like when I said Serral was not in his best shape because, ehm, he was actually losing games as opposed to being undefeated for months) or defend him against the vile attacks many posters love to make on this forum after he loses. I do not troll for entire days spamming sarcastic posts when Maru wins and I don't say that he sucks the many times he gets eliminated early from tournaments he could be expected to win. Can't you really tell the difference?
If Serral wins second Blizzcon, it will be a fantastic achievement. But in the current state of the game, many people will challenge and disregard it (rightfully). Serral is obviously already one of the best players ever, but your statements and opinions of him being the most dominant, player of the year etc. those are not facts. Everyone can have different criteria, I think your criteria are wrong but I dont mind you having your own opinion.
The way I see it, Serral is the most consistent player for 2018 and 2019. But 2018 player of the year and the most dominant was clearly Maru, he had the best results by far. 2019 we have no most dominant player. Serral again didnt participate in GSL with the best players in the world. And in tournaments with Koreans he was beaten by soO, Innovation and Stats. Won 1/4 premiere tournaments with Koreans participating, while the 1 was highly affected by game balance (Elazer was the runner-up...LOL) + AsusROG and WESG didnt even have all the best korean line-up due to format.
Serral is an amazing player but this over-glorification from foreignland is just ridiculous...
The complete round of 8 is being held on one single day? Are they serious?! I reckon, this is unworthy for the global finals and bad for Starcraft in general. I mean, who is able to watch a show that may well be about 8 hours long? It's very unlikely but it could be 37 maps for the viewers and 17 for the the two grand finalists if every series goes to full distance. I'm not a player but as a viewer I really much don't like this at all. Even if series lengths are average, that's far too long for me to enjoy watching and for the global finals I really would like to watch every game...
On October 28 2019 22:17 Evoleno wrote: The complete round of 8 is being held on one single day? Are they serious?! I reckon, this is unworthy for the global finals and bad for Starcraft in general. I mean, who is able to watch a show that may well be about 8 hours long? It's very unlikely but it could be 37 maps for the viewers and 17 for the the two grand finalists if every series goes to full distance. I'm not a player but as a viewer I really much don't like this at all. Even if series lengths are average, that's far too long for me to enjoy watching and for the global finals I really would like to watch every game...
That's my point! I wrote similar thing few posts above yours. 8-9 hours of Starcraft is difficult to watch, especially if you are in EU and finals starts like 4 AM...Previously Blizzcon was 2 days SC2 event. Ro8 - day1, semifinals and finals - day 2 (but not directly after Ro8, just 18 hours later...)
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible.
Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following.
If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era).
The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement).
Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence?
In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more.....
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
Really low skill era ? So you are saying that Korean top players from like 2013-2014 would crush Serral and Maru easily ? I would say the skill levels from top players are far better than anything from the past. Game has evolved, so have the players. Was the competition tougher back then ? Yeah, it was. But that doesnt mean that the skill level was somehow better. I have seen great new plays from players now in these current Blizzcon games. So game is still evolving and players are still creating new strategies and tricks to get their play better and better.
What goes to Stephano being better....yeah, he used roaches and then swarmhosts. He won a tournament and otherwise his accomplishments were very mediocre even in Europe. How in earth is he better than a player that has been top-4 (or even number 1) player in the world for almost 2 years now ?
You seem to believe that somehow, the game becoming close to dead, 90% of the korean pros losing their team in korea, losing a huge competition that was seen for many as almost more important than GSL (PROLEAGUE) and losing the constant and guaranteed income that they made by being in a team didnt impact their level of play. If you really believe that the level got better after that, you are not only delusional, but pointless to talk to. On October 28 2019 12:03 swarminfestor wrote:
Agreed much with this. I don't get the logic how Serral's performances in these two years surpassed GSL's caliber players during their peak performances. You cannot simply put Serral's current performances topped over the Innovation's past performances.
For the case of foreigners, I would like to swap Stephano with Naniwa even though the latter lacked the sportsmanship value.
Well again its hard to compare different timelines. But the absolute level of play is much higher now at the top altough the competition is more narrow.
"I don't get the logic how Serral's performances in these two years surpassed GSL's caliber players during their peak performances."
He wins over 50% of tournaments he enters. He had 40+ games winstreak in tournaments in 2018 and won almost all of them including Blizzcon and GSL vs. the World. He fairs excellent against the toughest Koreans in the field. Almost all other players fear to face him and that has been the case like over a year now. He is expected to win every tournament he enters and anything but winning is dissapointment. How many players in the history have had the same effect on other players or even same expectations ? MVP, Life, Innovation... ? Not many. And how many players have been able to remain in the top that long ? Again, not that many if none. Again, hard to compare players in different times, but his accomplishments are unique in the history of Starcraft 2.
And what goes to Naniwa, lol. Again, few good results and otherwise just mediocre. And no, you just cant argue that Stephano or Naniwa were better only because of "tougher competition". They were never really that near of the top. Maybe few peaks, but thats it. Otherwise their results were really mediocre. If we even look at foreinger scene; Serral dominated that over a year and except from Raynor still does. Naniwa or Stephano were very volatile even in their peak. They could challenge good Koreans the other day and next day lose to Elfi, Tefel or Bly. And what goes to tournament wins, there isnt even anything to compare to. Serral is just so much better than they were combined.
On October 28 2019 14:33 roflQUAFFLE wrote: If you remove Serral's wins from the past 2 years, I highly doubt anyone would be crying Zerg imba.
Yup.
Its funny that people like to remind how for example Life, Stephano, Naniwa, Parting or even MC have been SO CREATIVE AND REVOLUTIONAL at their gameplay. But when we talk about Serral, nobody seems to remember his burrow roach harass, countless ling runbys, drops in multiple angles and bases same time, perfect surrounds, stunning scouting almost every game etc. etc. And all of this is forgotten because "zerg so imba".
[QUOTE]Really low skill era ? So you are saying that Korean top players from like 2013-2014 would crush Serral and Maru easily ? I would say the skill levels from top players are far better than anything from the past. Game has evolved, so have the players. Was the competition tougher back then ? Yeah, it was. But that doesnt mean that the skill level was somehow better. I have seen great new plays from players now in these current Blizzcon games. So game is still evolving and players are still creating new strategies and tricks to get their play better and better.
What goes to Stephano being better....yeah, he used roaches and then swarmhosts. He won a tournament and otherwise his accomplishments were very mediocre even in Europe. How in earth is he better than a player that has been top-4 (or even number 1) player in the world for almost 2 years now [QUOTE]?
You seem to believe that somehow, the game becoming close to dead, 90% of the korean pros losing their team in korea, losing a huge competition that was seen for many as almost more important than GSL (PROLEAGUE) and losing the constant and guaranteed income that they made by being in a team didnt impact their level of play. If you really believe that the level got better after that, you are not only delusional, but pointless to talk to.
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic...
don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein
I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah.
Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses.
It's hilarious that you can even remotely think our behavior is comparable. I call Serral most dominant player ever because he is and best player of the year when he is, basing my statements on facts, not on the conviction that Code S is holy and untouchable and incredibly superior to any tournament.
My memory is still decent and I remember that you said multiple times that you hold BlizzCon in very high regard, what would happen if Serral were to win a second one? Your memory instead must not be sharp, as not only I never said Serral is the GOAT, I also never said he's the most skilled ever.
My reactions when Serral loses? I may not write anything or speak my mind saying things you don't like(like when I said Serral was not in his best shape because, ehm, he was actually losing games as opposed to being undefeated for months) or defend him against the vile attacks many posters love to make on this forum after he loses. I do not troll for entire days spamming sarcastic posts when Maru wins and I don't say that he sucks the many times he gets eliminated early from tournaments he could be expected to win. Can't you really tell the difference?
If Serral wins second Blizzcon, it will be a fantastic achievement. But in the current state of the game, many people will challenge and disregard it (rightfully). Serral is obviously already one of the best players ever, but your statements and opinions of him being the most dominant, player of the year etc. those are not facts. Everyone can have different criteria, I think your criteria are wrong but I dont mind you having your own opinion.
The way I see it, Serral is the most consistent player for 2018 and 2019. But 2018 player of the year and the most dominant was clearly Maru, he had the best results by far. 2019 we have no most dominant player. Serral again didnt participate in GSL with the best players in the world. And in tournaments with Koreans he was beaten by soO, Innovation and Stats. Won 1/4 premiere tournaments with Koreans participating, while the 1 was highly affected by game balance (Elazer was the runner-up...LOL) + AsusROG and WESG didnt even have all the best korean line-up due to format.
Serral is an amazing player but this over-glorification from foreignland is just ridiculous...
Na, 2018 player of the year is no question Serral. Maru's 4 GSL can be challenged and disregard due to the proxy meta (rightfully)
Outside of the proxy meta, Maru achievement is "average" compare to other more accomplished Koreans
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
Using your logic, Maru can't be a GOAT contender, because he won his GSLs in this "weaker" era. Do you agree?
On October 28 2019 23:26 Sabaton94 wrote: You seem to believe that somehow, the game becoming close to dead, 90% of the korean pros losing their team in korea, losing a huge competition that was seen for many as almost more important than GSL (PROLEAGUE) and losing the constant and guaranteed income that they made by being in a team didnt impact their level of play. If you really believe that the level got better after that, you are not only delusional, but pointless to talk to.
The pool of competitors did get much smaller, but the best players stuck around, and are just as motivated as ever to do their best. A larger pool only increases the chances of having more number of high-level players. It doesn't necessarily increase the average player's skill level (that's how bell curves work), as any single player can only have so many practice partners at a given time. Your undue arrogance is based on false assumptions.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible.
Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following.
If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era).
The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement).
Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence?
In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more.....
The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
Using your logic, Maru can't be a GOAT contender, because he won his GSLs in this "weaker" era. Do you agree?
There are literally people who argue that Stephano's (very short-lived) reign was more impressive than Serral's because it was due to a more competitive era. It's utterly futile to inject logic into these people. More money and players does not mean more quality play, and the developments throughout the years in gameplay have shown this. One only has to look at old VODs to see how bad everybody was—at everything—except maybe roach micro and ling runbys. Don't even get me started with their lack of creep spread. Honestly, they looked like 6200-ish GMs. lol
Serral's muta control makes DRG and Life's muta control look merely good, rather than spectacular as everyone perceived it back then.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible.
Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following.
If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era).
The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement).
Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence?
In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more.....
Or you could just watch Serral play closely? Even outside of his rare streams there’s footage of his feed from GSL vs the World this year that is available too.
Stephano is a great talent and a monster in his day, but far less rounded than Serral, his vP was much scarier than his other matchups.
Serral isn’t entirely lacking in innovation either, he usually brings some slight twist each tournament cycle. Constant nydus backstabs vs a bio Terran when they’re transitioning to ghosts for example, where he skipped the ultra transition or the BL transition in favour of constant counterattacking.
Perhaps he lacks the flavour of a Stephano or a Naniwa especially through nostalgic lenses because he doesn’t have a particular style outside of ‘being good at everything’
Normally I would say no GSLs means can't be in the GOAT conversation. But I think the only exception to that is winning multiple IEM Katowice and / or Blizzcon's. Serral realistically doesn't have multiple worldwide majors under his belt nor does he have a GSL or multiple GSLs (ideally for GOAT level comparisons).
Realistically I'd probably say Life. Even Maru or Rogue if they win a global championship (or two) or a GSL or two more respectively. For me to have Serral in the conversation he needs to win at least another Blizzcon or an IEM. Or ideally move to Korea and do it in the best competition in the world.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible.
Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following.
If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era).
The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement).
Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence?
In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more.....
The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument.
Wrong. It's a known fact that the skill level has decreased since the disbandment of Kespa teams.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible.
Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following.
If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era).
The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement).
Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence?
In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more.....
The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument.
Wrong. It's a known fact that the skill level has decreased since the disbandment of Kespa teams.
Just out of curiosity: where is the objective proof, that the skill level has decreased? Facts and opinions seem to get mixed in this thread.
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible.
Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following.
If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era).
The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement).
Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence?
In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more.....
The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument.
Wrong. It's a known fact that the skill level has decreased since the disbandment of Kespa teams.
Wrong, it's a known fact that we don't really know but can argue both angles fairly well depending on what exactly we mean with "skill" in the first place.
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible.
Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following.
If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era).
The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement).
Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence?
In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more.....
The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument.
Wrong. It's a known fact that the skill level has decreased since the disbandment of Kespa teams.
Wrong, it's a known fact that we don't really know but can argue both angles fairly well depending on what exactly we mean with "skill" in the first place.
Well, we could argue about what the definition of "skill" is, but I'd go with the pros on this one, and stay on the "players are better now" side.
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible.
Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following.
If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era).
The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement).
Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence?
In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more.....
The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument.
Wrong. It's a known fact that the skill level has decreased since the disbandment of Kespa teams.
Just out of curiosity: where is the objective proof, that the skill level has decreased? Facts and opinions seem to get mixed in this thread.
Man, that Charoisaur guy said that he would ignore me because my statistically supported opinion=facts were not fact at all, and now he's emphatically declaring his own(korean biased) opinion to be a known fact. He's truly top tier material.
Why people just cant assume sc2 is a game that is dying and competetion (and skill lvl) now sucks?
Koreans dont even train nowdays. There are planty of examples of that. Rogue said it before winning GSL (he wasnt even training and started training when he saw zerg was op). Soo also admited he wasnt training.
Is so hard too admit competionts after proleague dissamble doenst count as serious? Or in other words you cant compare after proleafue with before.
Is like comparing pros against amateurs.
BTW multitasking nowdays sucks. Ive seen games where top players forget too move units and they cant handle multiples attacks. Back in the days games with players in their pick such as Life or Inno where on other lvl of multitasking. I remember soulkey and life dissambling maru only with lings and mutas.
I am leaning towards the idea that players got a bit worse on average but that is mainly because Jin Air has been dominating the Korean scene. It is really just my speculation but I don't think they would have dominated as hard at least in GSLs since they went from winning virtually none of them before 2018 to virtually all of them (only 1 out of 6 of the last 6 GSLs was won by non-Jin Air player). That said, they didn't do particularly well in 2017 (Rogue was really good and Maru and sOs were pretty good) but I think they have more than made up in 2018 and 2019. Without going as far as Dave4, I think the teamhouse advantage does exist but it is possible to do really well without a teamhouse.
it reminds of the situation in Brood War. Most of the players don't play super long hours like in the professional days and many of them believe that mechanics probably have declined (although strategy has been evolving pretty quickly). I think many of the SC2 pros do not play as long hours as they used to because there is less pressure among peers and coaches. As a result, their mechanics suffer.
Overall, I believe some top Korean players would have still been top players in HotS at their present skill level, such as Maru. Considering Maru is still young and has a teamhouse, I can't see how he got any worse from HotS (although I'm a pretty terrible SC2 player so it's hard for me to judge). So I think we could say that while the top of the scene is probably close to as strong as the top of the scene in HotS, there are probably fewer people at that top-Korean HotS skill level nowadays and that may be why people are dominating harder now than in HotS. For example, Dark's run this year would have been one of the best in HotS but in LotV, I could name probably 5 that are more impressive.
On October 29 2019 02:11 Monster3 wrote: Normally I would say no GSLs means can't be in the GOAT conversation. But I think the only exception to that is winning multiple IEM Katowice and / or Blizzcon's. Serral realistically doesn't have multiple worldwide majors under his belt nor does he have a GSL or multiple GSLs (ideally for GOAT level comparisons).
Realistically I'd probably say Life. Even Maru or Rogue if they win a global championship (or two) or a GSL or two more respectively. For me to have Serral in the conversation he needs to win at least another Blizzcon or an IEM. Or ideally move to Korea and do it in the best competition in the world.
You're conflating tournament wins with general strength, which is a common fallacy around this community. The stronger a player, the more likely he is to win a tournament; however, it's entirely possible for the strongest player by far to never win a single tournament, yet still have the best winrate against the best players. There isn't a single player in Korea who has a winrate vs top10 players as high as Serral's for the last couple years, though 1 player comes close. I also think you're overestimating the value of a large prize pool in terms of its ability to bring out players' potential. I also believe when people gauge a player's strength, they want to know a player's ability to compete under various prize pools, not just ones with the largest dollar amounts and prestige.
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru.
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible.
Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following.
If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era).
The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement).
Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence?
In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more.....
The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument.
Wrong. It's a known fact that the skill level has decreased since the disbandment of Kespa teams.
Wrong, it's a known fact that we don't really know but can argue both angles fairly well depending on what exactly we mean with "skill" in the first place.
As far as I can tell, outside of players slumping there isn’t a great deal of difference in gameplay between the top ex-Kespa guys when they’re playing an international tournament pre and post the teams disbanding.
If one considers that a sort of ‘latent level’ for playing a tournament without as much prep and without knowing the brackets and coming up with stuff on the fly, I can’t tell much difference myself.
What we also lost along with the teams themselves were an additional Starleague, along with Proleague itself. Those are additional prep tournaments, and Proleague had preparing for singular sets, along with teams helping prepare for them.
Of course the outright level is probably going to be higher in those particular tournaments, basically by default.
You wouldn’t say a musician’s skill declined by having him sight read a new piece vs his ‘peak’ where he had plenty of time to learn pieces and with a band.
On October 29 2019 02:49 darklycid wrote: I'd argue Players are better now but with kespa Teams koreans would be better than they are now (so basically the growth of Skill could be bigger).
Yeah, that's almost certainly true... Unfortunately we'll never know.
On October 29 2019 03:28 TheAnarchy wrote: Why people just cant assume sc2 is a game that is dying and competetion (and skill lvl) now sucks?
Koreans dont even train nowdays. There are planty of examples of that. Rogue said it before winning GSL (he wasnt even training and started training when he saw zerg was op). Soo also admited he wasnt training.
Is so hard too admit competionts after proleague dissamble doenst count as serious? Or in other words you cant compare after proleafue with before.
Is like comparing pros against amateurs.
BTW multitasking nowdays sucks. Ive seen games where top players forget too move units and they cant handle multiples attacks. Back in the days games with players in their pick such as Life or Inno where on other lvl of multitasking. I remember soulkey and life dissambling maru only with lings and mutas.
Yeah I dont know why people refuse to see that sc2 is a shadow of its former self and that most korean pros dont care or train like they used to. People who claim that this level is the highest level ever clearly were not around when we had insane competition in Proleague. They are either too invested in the game to admit that its becoming a lot weaker and that most koreans put way less efforts on their own (compared to when they had a team) or they are simply blind and cant see how much weaker the competition is.
On the flip side, I believe that the level of play from foreigners improved a lot, because now that the koreans are way weaker, they have a realistic shot at winning. (that plus the racist korean ban that happened couple years ago)
Do Koreans have to train 10 hours a day to keep up to a certain level?
ByuN hit the level he did teamless after all and won a GSL at Blizzcon, Rain won a GSL playing on a foreign team which is basically the same as being teamless in terms of that team house environments.
The level is going to definitely drop going forward, as nobody else is stepping up to the level of the top Kespa/ESF guys while Classic, herO, GuMiho are going to the military.
On October 29 2019 08:14 Wombat_NI wrote: Do Koreans have to train 10 hours a day to keep up to a certain level?
ByuN hit the level he did teamless after all and won a GSL at Blizzcon, Rain won a GSL playing on a foreign team which is basically the same as being teamless in terms of that team house environments.
The level is going to definitely drop going forward, as nobody else is stepping up to the level of the top Kespa/ESF guys while Classic, herO, GuMiho are going to the military.
Kespa was on it's deathbed when ByuN won and in the case of Blizzcon he only won thanks to broken reapers.
On October 29 2019 03:33 Anc13nt wrote: I am leaning towards the idea that players got a bit worse on average but that is mainly because Jin Air has been dominating the Korean scene. It is really just my speculation but I don't think they would have dominated as hard at least in GSLs since they went from winning virtually none of them before 2018 to virtually all of them (only 1 out of 6 of the last 6 GSLs was won by non-Jin Air player). That said, they didn't do particularly well in 2017 (Rogue was really good and Maru and sOs were pretty good) but I think they have more than made up in 2018 and 2019. Without going as far as Dave4, I think the teamhouse advantage does exist but it is possible to do really well without a teamhouse.
it reminds of the situation in Brood War. Most of the players don't play super long hours like in the professional days and many of them believe that mechanics probably have declined (although strategy has been evolving pretty quickly). I think many of the SC2 pros do not play as long hours as they used to because there is less pressure among peers and coaches. As a result, their mechanics suffer.
Overall, I believe some top Korean players would have still been top players in HotS at their present skill level, such as Maru. Considering Maru is still young and has a teamhouse, I can't see how he got any worse from HotS (although I'm a pretty terrible SC2 player so it's hard for me to judge). So I think we could say that while the top of the scene is probably close to as strong as the top of the scene in HotS, there are probably fewer people at that top-Korean HotS skill level nowadays and that may be why people are dominating harder now than in HotS. For example, Dark's run this year would have been one of the best in HotS but in LotV, I could name probably 5 that are more impressive.
Thanks for the shout out, hurtful though it was.
I agree with your sentiments, I think it's silly when people argue "lowest skill era therefore wins mean nothing" (these people are simultaneously likely to be the ones who don't think JAGW have any advantage, and Maru is the GOAT for 4 GSLs, go figure).
Skill has definitely increased since HOTS. *Rate* of increase has however certainly decreased, largely due to the collapse of Kespa. That is the primary reason for the gap closing between foreigners/Korea in my mind.
We are still, in my mind, at the peak level of skill overall in SC history taking into account strategy, micro, macro, positioning, meta. The fact that there is an outlying player who is winning more than half of the tournaments he enters despite this over two solid years is a testament to his skill level, and is why he should certainly be considered in the top echalon across all periods.
On October 29 2019 08:14 Wombat_NI wrote: Do Koreans have to train 10 hours a day to keep up to a certain level?
ByuN hit the level he did teamless after all and won a GSL at Blizzcon, Rain won a GSL playing on a foreign team which is basically the same as being teamless in terms of that team house environments.
The level is going to definitely drop going forward, as nobody else is stepping up to the level of the top Kespa/ESF guys while Classic, herO, GuMiho are going to the military.
Kespa was on it's deathbed when ByuN won and in the case of Blizzcon he only won thanks to broken reapers.
He didn’t just win because of reapers, jeez, did people even watch the games? I’d even say Rogue / Serral BlizzCons were more zerg favored than Terran was during ByuN run.
On October 29 2019 08:14 Wombat_NI wrote: Do Koreans have to train 10 hours a day to keep up to a certain level?
ByuN hit the level he did teamless after all and won a GSL at Blizzcon, Rain won a GSL playing on a foreign team which is basically the same as being teamless in terms of that team house environments.
The level is going to definitely drop going forward, as nobody else is stepping up to the level of the top Kespa/ESF guys while Classic, herO, GuMiho are going to the military.
Kespa was on it's deathbed when ByuN won and in the case of Blizzcon he only won thanks to broken reapers.
It wasn’t when Rain won his GSL, and even if the reaper meta suited ByuN’s skillset why couldn’t Kespa Terrans emulate it in that environment?
For people arguing the skill level has dropped when did this happen? Yes Kespa was about to pull out at that time but it’s not as if the players’ skills fell off a cliff immediately
On October 29 2019 08:14 Wombat_NI wrote: Do Koreans have to train 10 hours a day to keep up to a certain level?
ByuN hit the level he did teamless after all and won a GSL at Blizzcon, Rain won a GSL playing on a foreign team which is basically the same as being teamless in terms of that team house environments.
The level is going to definitely drop going forward, as nobody else is stepping up to the level of the top Kespa/ESF guys while Classic, herO, GuMiho are going to the military.
Kespa was on it's deathbed when ByuN won and in the case of Blizzcon he only won thanks to broken reapers.
He didn’t just win because of reapers, jeez, did people even watch the games? I’d even say Rogue / Serral BlizzCons were more zerg favored than Terran was during ByuN run.
I watched Dark outplay him at pretty much every phase of the game that wasn't mass reaper.
On October 29 2019 08:14 Wombat_NI wrote: Do Koreans have to train 10 hours a day to keep up to a certain level?
ByuN hit the level he did teamless after all and won a GSL at Blizzcon, Rain won a GSL playing on a foreign team which is basically the same as being teamless in terms of that team house environments.
The level is going to definitely drop going forward, as nobody else is stepping up to the level of the top Kespa/ESF guys while Classic, herO, GuMiho are going to the military.
Kespa was on it's deathbed when ByuN won and in the case of Blizzcon he only won thanks to broken reapers.
He didn’t just win because of reapers, jeez, did people even watch the games? I’d even say Rogue / Serral BlizzCons were more zerg favored than Terran was during ByuN run.
I watched Dark outplay him at pretty much every phase of the game that wasn't mass reaper.
i) His BlizzCon run wasn't only the final vs Dark ii) He looked great against Dark even in the long game he lost to Dark on the winter / ice map (ultralisks were quite broken at that time), one other game he held an allin, all in all he didn't look inferior to Dark at all
The skill level today is of course higher than it was 3-4 years ago.
Imagine if you practiced Karate 10 hours per day for the first 5 years. Then you cut down your practice to 6 hours per day for the next 3 years.
After 8 years you overall skill would be much higher compared to when you practiced for 5 years, even though you practiced more hours per day back then.
The SC2 skill level is the highest it has ever been. Only if people started to slack off completely like practicing maybe 1-2 hours per day would the skill level decline.
On October 29 2019 21:50 MockHamill wrote: The skill level today is of course higher than it was 3-4 years ago.
Imagine if you practiced Karate 10 hours per day for the first 5 years. Then you cut down your practice to 6 hours per day for the next 3 years.
After 8 years you overall skill would be much higher compared to when you practiced for 5 years, even though you practiced more hours per day back then.
The SC2 skill level is the highest it has ever been. Only if people started to slack off completely like practicing maybe 1-2 hours per day would the skill level decline.
I think you can just look at the metrics, look at the APM, look at serrals EAPM. nobody has ever in the history of SC2 been as effective as him in terms of that data point.
I would say the one thing team environments drove and may have fallen off from the korean sc2 scene is how quickly they counter builds and how fast new strategies are developed. the team house environment is perfect for this and the clear evidence of this is with Jin Airs consistent success now.
I would say the Korean players are just as good as ever, however strategically Europeans and the circuit is far closer in terms of current meta strategies and timings as the korean scene moves at a much slower pace than before. Historically a single european could not keep up which is why you would historically see koreans just break out the latest cheese on a non-korean and stomp them.
Skill level is of course higher these days. When you do something longer you do it better. Experience matters, as simple as that.
Competition, which is a completely different matter, has dropped drastically compared to Kespa days. No teamhouse, no 12 hours a day, no new blood. Look at the number of top-tier players now and that number 4 years ago. There are so few right now. The fact that Maru wins 4 Gsl in a row proves my point. It is literally impossible to win 4 in a row during kespa days.
On October 29 2019 23:21 Nakajin wrote: Skill level is most likely higher than it ever was, but it's also lower than it could have been if the team houses environment had lasted.
Sounds reasonable to me. I do miss the teams and the rivalries and the extra tournaments and all for sure, I’m rather torn on if on balance I think the team house system is a good thing, for a variety of reasons.
Aside from some concerns as to over-practicing and whatnot, it just raises the bar to entering the pro game to such a level that it’s extremely difficult for anyone to get in the door. It’s always been more prominent in discussion regarding foreigners competing but it’s increasingly more and more apparent that it completely stifled the emergence of new Korean talent who weren’t on Kespa teams for a good half decade.
The people who think the skill level is lower today are the same people who try to boot up Wings of Liberty games and talk about how great 6 worker start was, oh, and complain about there being no proleague.
On October 29 2019 23:21 Nakajin wrote: Skill level is most likely higher than it ever was, but it's also lower than it could have been if the team houses environment had lasted.
Sounds reasonable to me. I do miss the teams and the rivalries and the extra tournaments and all for sure, I’m rather torn on if on balance I think the team house system is a good thing, for a variety of reasons.
Aside from some concerns as to over-practicing and whatnot, it just raises the bar to entering the pro game to such a level that it’s extremely difficult for anyone to get in the door. It’s always been more prominent in discussion regarding foreigners competing but it’s increasingly more and more apparent that it completely stifled the emergence of new Korean talent who weren’t on Kespa teams for a good half decade.
I think Proleague would be amazing in the current environment. A foreign team would actually be competitive compared to the EGTL experiment. Plus that would bring in tons of viewers.
On October 29 2019 23:21 Nakajin wrote: Skill level is most likely higher than it ever was, but it's also lower than it could have been if the team houses environment had lasted.
Sounds reasonable to me. I do miss the teams and the rivalries and the extra tournaments and all for sure, I’m rather torn on if on balance I think the team house system is a good thing, for a variety of reasons.
Aside from some concerns as to over-practicing and whatnot, it just raises the bar to entering the pro game to such a level that it’s extremely difficult for anyone to get in the door. It’s always been more prominent in discussion regarding foreigners competing but it’s increasingly more and more apparent that it completely stifled the emergence of new Korean talent who weren’t on Kespa teams for a good half decade.
I think Proleague would be amazing in the current environment. A foreign team would actually be competitive compared to the EGTL experiment. Plus that would bring in tons of viewers.
I’d like to see such a tournament, say give 2/3 months of the year, have a draft or something and just clear the Premier tournaments for that period.
Ex-SKT, ex-KT etc, team foreigner heroes, would be great fun.
I love team leagues my main issue with the team houses were that they gave such a huge advantage that others couldn’t really replicate. If you made it a short term thing where teams gather up again and all practice together for a league it’d be awesome.
On October 29 2019 23:46 youngjiddle wrote: The people who think the skill level is lower today are the same people who try to boot up Wings of Liberty games and talk about how great 6 worker start was, oh, and complain about there being no proleague.
You can talk shit about many things but dont shittalk 6 worker start bro. That was honestly an important thing for sc2.
On October 29 2019 23:46 youngjiddle wrote: The people who think the skill level is lower today are the same people who try to boot up Wings of Liberty games and talk about how great 6 worker start was, oh, and complain about there being no proleague.
You can talk shit about many things but dont shittalk 6 worker start bro. That was honestly an important thing for sc2.
Ok, I get that 6 worker start made an impact.
How about, the people who think the skill level is lower today are the same people who hail GSL as the greatest and only format for a starcraft tournament, they call out Serral for not playing in it, but also hypocritically call out other foreigners for playing in it an taking spots of Korean players.
On October 29 2019 23:21 Nakajin wrote: Skill level is most likely higher than it ever was, but it's also lower than it could have been if the team houses environment had lasted.
Sounds reasonable to me. I do miss the teams and the rivalries and the extra tournaments and all for sure, I’m rather torn on if on balance I think the team house system is a good thing, for a variety of reasons.
Aside from some concerns as to over-practicing and whatnot, it just raises the bar to entering the pro game to such a level that it’s extremely difficult for anyone to get in the door. It’s always been more prominent in discussion regarding foreigners competing but it’s increasingly more and more apparent that it completely stifled the emergence of new Korean talent who weren’t on Kespa teams for a good half decade.
I think Proleague would be amazing in the current environment. A foreign team would actually be competitive compared to the EGTL experiment. Plus that would bring in tons of viewers.
I’d like to see such a tournament, say give 2/3 months of the year, have a draft or something and just clear the Premier tournaments for that period.
Ex-SKT, ex-KT etc, team foreigner heroes, would be great fun.
I love team leagues my main issue with the team houses were that they gave such a huge advantage that others couldn’t really replicate. If you made it a short term thing where teams gather up again and all practice together for a league it’d be awesome.
Well, China IS actively trying to save SC2 with a team league
On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote: love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled..
I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are.
I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol).
For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral has only won tournaments that have all-foreigners or half-foreigners. While losing to all other tournaments (IEM Katowice, WESG, ASUS, IEM PyeongChang).
Idk why would Serral ever be GOAT at this point? Greatest Hype certainly. He has the potential sure, but nothing to show for it yet. For "of all time", even INnoVation has by far a more impressive record than him.
Serral has only won tournaments that have all-foreigners or half-foreigners. While losing to all other tournaments (IEM Katowice, WESG, ASUS, IEM PyeongChang).
Idk why would Serral ever be GOAT at this point? Greatest Hype certainly. He has the potential sure, but nothing to show for it yet. For "of all time", even INnoVation has by far a more impressive record than him.
LoL?
Maru has won 1 Tournament out of 8 with half-foreigners in the last 2 years. Katowice 2018 - 3/4th WESG 2017 - 1st GSL v the world 2018 - 3/4th Katowice 2019 - 13/16th WESG2018 - 3rd GSL v the world 2019 - 9/16th
thats poor for a goat.
in the last 2 years innovation is also 2 for 6 GPC2019 s1 - 1st WESG 2018 - 1st he lost at ASUS ROG, katowice x2 and a gsl vs the world
Serral is 3 in 9 tournaments (so the same ratio) GSL vs the world x2 (2018/2019) Global finals - 1st he lost, ASUS rog, kaotwice x2, wesg x2 and pyeongchang.
I wouldn't say that's a worse ratio. I think you have to look at serral as getting better in 2017 and is now the beast we know (since 2018). Hes clearly improved since his 2017 season
Innovation has clearly had more impressive career and is a hall of farmer but if serral wins worlds he would only be the second player to have 2 world championships and be the first player to go back to back in the history of SC2... thats HOF material. even GOAT material.
to me, if you don't show up at worlds you can't even be in the conversation.
Serral has only won tournaments that have all-foreigners or half-foreigners. While losing to all other tournaments (IEM Katowice, WESG, ASUS, IEM PyeongChang).
Idk why would Serral ever be GOAT at this point? Greatest Hype certainly. He has the potential sure, but nothing to show for it yet. For "of all time", even INnoVation has by far a more impressive record than him.
LoL?
Maru has won 1 Tournament out of 8 with half-foreigners in the last 2 years. Katowice 2018 - 3/4th WESG 2017 - 1st GSL v the world 2018 - 3/4th Katowice 2019 - 13/16th WESG2018 - 3rd GSL v the world 2019 - 9/16th
thats poor for a goat.
in the last 2 years innovation is also 2 for 6 GPC2019 s1 - 1st WESG 2018 - 1st he lost at ASUS ROG, katowice x2 and a gsl vs the world
Serral is 3 in 9 tournaments (so the same ratio) GSL vs the world x2 (2018/2019) Global finals - 1st he lost, ASUS rog, kaotwice x2, wesg x2 and pyeongchang.
I wouldn't say that's a worse ratio. I think you have to look at serral as getting better in 2017 and is now the beast we know (since 2018). Hes clearly improved since his 2017 season
Innovation has clearly had more impressive career and is a hall of farmer but if serral wins worlds he would only be the second player to have 2 world championships and be the first player to go back to back in the history of SC2... thats HOF material. even GOAT material.
to me, if you don't show up at worlds you can't even be in the conversation.
The difference is Maru has 2 starleagues pre-2017, tons of other high finishes, amazing proleague performances, and perhaps the most impressive thing about his career consistently being the last Terran standing during periods where Terran was weak. To be goat with a 2 year career you have to win literally everything which Serral hasn't done. Give him another year or two and he can enter the conversation.
Serral has only won tournaments that have all-foreigners or half-foreigners. While losing to all other tournaments (IEM Katowice, WESG, ASUS, IEM PyeongChang).
Idk why would Serral ever be GOAT at this point? Greatest Hype certainly. He has the potential sure, but nothing to show for it yet. For "of all time", even INnoVation has by far a more impressive record than him.
LoL?
Maru has won 1 Tournament out of 8 with half-foreigners in the last 2 years. Katowice 2018 - 3/4th WESG 2017 - 1st GSL v the world 2018 - 3/4th Katowice 2019 - 13/16th WESG2018 - 3rd GSL v the world 2019 - 9/16th
thats poor for a goat.
in the last 2 years innovation is also 2 for 6 GPC2019 s1 - 1st WESG 2018 - 1st he lost at ASUS ROG, katowice x2 and a gsl vs the world
Serral is 3 in 9 tournaments (so the same ratio) GSL vs the world x2 (2018/2019) Global finals - 1st he lost, ASUS rog, kaotwice x2, wesg x2 and pyeongchang.
I wouldn't say that's a worse ratio. I think you have to look at serral as getting better in 2017 and is now the beast we know (since 2018). Hes clearly improved since his 2017 season
Innovation has clearly had more impressive career and is a hall of farmer but if serral wins worlds he would only be the second player to have 2 world championships and be the first player to go back to back in the history of SC2... thats HOF material. even GOAT material.
to me, if you don't show up at worlds you can't even be in the conversation.
The difference is Maru has 2 starleagues pre-2017, tons of other high finishes, amazing proleague performances, and perhaps the most impressive thing about his career consistently being the last Terran standing during periods where Terran was weak. To be goat with a 2 year career you have to win literally everything which Serral hasn't done. Give him another year or two and he can enter the conversation.
True but then even if he does that people will claim the skill level is lower than the Kespa era or whatever.
Unless directly comparing for the purposes of coming up with a rank or whatever, Serral’s a great player, Maru is a great player etc.
I’m not sure why people expend so much energy focusing on the real or perceived deficiencies of either player to ridiculous degrees when they are patently two of the best to have ever played the game.
On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote: Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years.
in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs.
His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently.
His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure
On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote: Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years.
in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs.
His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently.
His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure
Oh for sure, he achieved great things in the last 2 years without a doubt. It's still worth showing that "13 premier finals" gets way less impressive when over half of them are in a circuit where most of the best players are missing. Or to say it differently, premier =/= premier.
On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote: Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years.
in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs.
His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently.
His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure
Oh for sure, he achieved great things in the last 2 years without a doubt. It's still worth showing that "13 premier finals" gets way less impressive when over half of them are in a circuit where most of the best players are missing. Or to say it differently, premier =/= premier.
Pre/Post 2015 tournament accounting is pretty hard because of region lock
On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote: Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years.
in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs.
His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently.
His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure
Oh for sure, he achieved great things in the last 2 years without a doubt. It's still worth showing that "13 premier finals" gets way less impressive when over half of them are in a circuit where most of the best players are missing. Or to say it differently, premier =/= premier.
Doesn't the fact that he doesn't get to practice vs Koreans make his achievements even more impressing? Think what could happen if his level of practice was as high as the Koreans? So he comes from lower competition and is still better than the Koreans, that's gotta impress you, since you probably only think beating Koreans is impressive, as opposed to consistently beating almost all other foreigners for 2 years!
On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote: Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years.
in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs.
His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently.
His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure
Oh for sure, he achieved great things in the last 2 years without a doubt. It's still worth showing that "13 premier finals" gets way less impressive when over half of them are in a circuit where most of the best players are missing. Or to say it differently, premier =/= premier.
Doesn't the fact that he doesn't get to practice vs Koreans make his achievements even more impressing? Think what could happen if his level of practice was as high as the Koreans? So he comes from lower competition and is still better than the Koreans, that's gotta impress you, since you probably only think beating Koreans is impressive, as opposed to consistently beating almost all other foreigners for 2 years!
True but if he would regularly practice vs koreans they'd also have a better chance at figuring him out so it goes both ways.
On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote: Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years.
in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs.
His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently.
His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure
Oh for sure, he achieved great things in the last 2 years without a doubt. It's still worth showing that "13 premier finals" gets way less impressive when over half of them are in a circuit where most of the best players are missing. Or to say it differently, premier =/= premier.
Pre/Post 2015 tournament accounting is pretty hard because of region lock
And it was never easy to begin with The Taeja arguments were more fun than the serral ones though
On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote: Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years.
in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs.
His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently.
His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure
Oh for sure, he achieved great things in the last 2 years without a doubt. It's still worth showing that "13 premier finals" gets way less impressive when over half of them are in a circuit where most of the best players are missing. Or to say it differently, premier =/= premier.
Pre/Post 2015 tournament accounting is pretty hard because of region lock
And it was never easy to begin with The Taeja arguments were more fun than the serral ones though
Oh god you had to remind me of those, having PTSD-inducing flashbacks again after so long free of them
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/WCS2019/RTB/ro8bracket.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://nicehost.xyz/img3455/starcraft.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://imgsa.baidu.com/forum/w%3D580/sign=306e76373612b31bc76ccd21b6193674/e3a974380cd79123d43e7e04a2345982b3b78089.jpg)
A little bit polishing and it would be IMO playable. Even without the archon toilet(which was possible if you got the chance, obv 
, it is very difficult to watch games after 1:00 AM and be able to wake up early morning... 
